The Barbie Movie: A Mirror Into Our Collective Trauma with Michele, Therapist | Ep. 98 (Audio Only)

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Hi everyone. Welcome to the Holistic Inner Balance and I'm really excited about this conversation today. This is is a review of the Barbie movie from a trauma informed perspective. And so in this conversation Hadley and I are joined by Michelle and she is a trauma expert and we get into a lot in this, this podcast. We're talking about the two worlds that we find introduced the Barbie world and the human world. And we dive into the nuance of the juxtapositions between power and control. We even look at one of the trauma responses called a fawn response which is incredibly common but really not discussed often. And we talk about gender roles and am I explicit or am I complicit in the perpetuation of trauma? And how does the ending of this movie actually leave us in a state, state of discomfort and how does this movie call to action? What we then do about this perpetuation? So I know that was a lot of big sciency, psychologically heavy words, but all in all y', all, I think it's one of my favorite conversations that we had and I hope you really love it. And so get some popcorn, put on some pink and enjoy the conversation about Barbie. All right everybody, I am so excited to be bringing to the conversation a really good friend of mine and she is going to be talking with Hadley and I about the Barbie movie. This is Michelle. And Michelle is trained as a clinical mental health specialist. She has a counseling degree in LPC and she's EMDR certified. As you guys know, we talk a lot about EMDR here. It's one of the best therapies for, for training people's nervous system and their brains and their emotional well being so that it shifts out of a trauma state into a state that's more in alignment with who you really are. And so she's an expert at that. She does a lot of trauma informed therapy work, especially with women and marginalized people. She works with society and culture and how implicit bias can contribute to trauma. She helps her clients using EMDR ifs, which is internal family systems. And she uses other narrative therapeutic techniques. And you can find her by going to her Instagram at mind dot renewal, trauma dot recovery. And again, this is Michelle and she's Instagram at mind renewal, trauma dot recovery. And so habs, you have some disclaimers for us, right?

Yes, yes. So we wanted to make a disclaimer that we are talking about the Barbie movie today. And so there will be some spoilers. So if you haven't seen the Barbie movie and you still want to see the Barbie movie, and you don't want to, you want to still be surprised, maybe go watch it first and then come back and listen to this conversation. If not, you can totally listen to it and just know that we're gonna, we're gonna talk about, you know, what happens throughout the movie. So just be aware.

So let's set the stage. We have two worlds, my friends. In one world, it's called Barbie World, right? And I'm going to describe this world and then I'm going to describe the other world. And I want us to, as you're listening, see if you notice any similarities. And so world number one, one gender leads politics. One gender has the wealth, the dream home, the car, the spaceship. One gender has jobs and leadership like president, Supreme Court justices, Nobel prize winners, pop pilots, doctors. The other gender has jobs like beaching, surveying the waves, which doesn't instill the purpose they desire and they long for. There's this glass ceiling and they wish that could break. And one gender fawns while the other gender rules. So this is Barbie world. And we can all imagine which gender is which when we look at Barbie world. But then let's look at the real world. And so in the real world, one gender leads politics. In fact, 100% of the presidents in US history have and have been one gender. In the real world, one gender rules the supreme court. Out of 115 justices who've served, only six have been women, with the first appointed not until 1981. In the real world, one gender is predominated and represented by Nobel Prize winners. 894 were men and 60 were women. And in the real world, pilots are dominated by one gender, with only 4.92% of them being women. And in the real world, one gender fawns while the other gender rules. And so when we're looking at these worlds, they're essentially the same except for one major difference. And the difference is which gender is ruling. And so this is the stage that has been set up by the Barbie movie. And in this conversation, we're going to be deconstructing a lot of what that means from a woman's perspective, from a trauma, informed perspective, psychological perspective, political perspectives, and like whatever else we get into to it. So, ladies, tell me about your thoughts with the Barbie Movie.

Oh, my gosh. I loved the Barbie movie. I thought they did such a good job representing those. The, like, differences. I felt uncomfortable sometimes with, like, the women being in power, and I, you know, saw that in myself, and I thought that that was really interesting, you know, seeing it as, like, an unfairness, just like it is in our patriarchal world. I thought that was really interesting. I also, you know, I loved the. The social commentary involved, and I also just loved that there was so much absurdity, too. They brought in a lot of that lightness. And, you know, we talk about going between, like, back and forth between healing and then, you know, having some of that levity and how that really is. The healing process is like going into the depths and then coming up into levity and going back into the depths and coming into levity. And I thought that they did a really good job doing that. So I'm really, really excited for this conversation today, and I'm really excited to hear what you have to say as well. Michelle.

Yeah, I was really surprised, actually, how much I liked it and was actually impressed by not just the way, like, you said that, that kind of fluctuation between where they would take you in emotional intensity, but with how much I could relate to both sides of this, both genders. There were many times where it felt very empowering to see in Barbieland how women, like, like you were saying, had the. Had the jobs, had the support and this power. And then I could also relate to Ken in some of. Especially when he was going into the real world and started to realize from this more timid space all the things could do and, oh, look at that. And that inspiration. So. But obviously understanding that in this movie that Ken's role and his mannerisms and his power, so to speak, was portraying women at this point, right. How women are actually perceived and what we experience in society. So it was this interesting. It's very interesting to watch. Very emotional at times, actually.

Oh, yeah, I definitely got teary.

And there's been a lot of outrage with this movie, which is surprising in one sense, but, like, completely par for the course in another. And when this Barbie world was. It was created. It's fascinating how it's like when you just, like, step back and look at it objectively. Yes, it is, like, a little bit, like, into the depths and then levity, which makes it a little bit, like, cartoonish and wacky, you know, like plastic Rollerblades. But, you know, it's also intended for kids. But there's this deeper message where we look at these Two worlds and they're parallel. And like, really, for all intents and purposes, it's the same thing that's happening in world, but with women in charge. And so there's a lot of outrage. Like there's people who I won't even like, give the, the publicity too, who I've been watching videos of that are just like burning Barbies and trash cans and are having huge tantrums over it. And so it kind of caused me to step back and reflect and try to understand where the outrage was coming from. You know, I think it's really easy to just be like, yeah, girl power. But I think that there's a deeper understanding that can come from this with, with power and control and trauma. And so I was asking myself the question of why would creating a world where women are in power and women are in control create such outrage? And so I'm kind of curious. I have some ideas and I would actually love to hear what you think, especially Michelle, coming from a trauma trained world.

Well, I think any imbalance of power creates trauma, right? And because in order for one population or one specific category of anything to be in power that requires a certain things are going to have to change in the mindset of the other people involved, right? To be considered less than. If there is a greater than, then there is a less than, right? And trauma is really anything that changes your view of yourself, others in the world. That's how I view trauma. And complex trauma is the reinforcement of, even if it's subtle, even if it's microaggressions or lack of representation, those can all create a mindset that shows.

Who.

Or what is dominant and what is not right. And that creates this us versus them or greater than, lesser than. And so any power dynamic, regardless of who or what is in charge, is unhealthy, I would say, and can create that, that unhealth in the members of the society of the population. And so whether it's matriarchy or patriarchy, if Barbie Landview could argue that that is the depiction of a matriarchy, then neither is great because it is, neither is good at all because it is imbalanced. Imbalance of the masculine and feminine is where I would say ultimately we would want to go to be the, the image of a healthy society.

Which is the first, which is the first, spoiler alert is that we don't end in balance in Barbie. We don't get that it ends with like Barbie world stays the same and women keep power well, but they're taking steps, right Exactly.

Yeah, just like that. Just like it is in the real world. And it's like, as long as the real world has that imbalance, like, we're gonna have that imbalance in Barbie land too, which I thought was. At first I was like, oh, my God. It's like, no, what? Like, what about Ken? And then I was like, okay, yeah, that makes sense, because it's. It's sort of like. Like, it's like balancing it out. Real World vs. Barbieland.

It also leaves the viewer, I feel like, with more of a motivation to act. If you're not getting this, like, ah, this nice takeaway, like, okay, all is restored now. It's almost putting it in the beginning. It's whatever happens in Barbie land affects the real world. And now it's like this idea of, okay, we need to act, because what happens in the real world happens in Barbie land. So I kind of felt like that may have been intentional for that purpose, but I don't know.

Yeah, it leaves us in the conflict. Because if it leaves us in resolution and we work through our trauma process and then we feel like that's resolved, then we're not going to be taking action to actively resolve that continuing trauma process that's happening in the real world right now.

Yeah. And back to what you said, Michelle. Like, you had just, like, a total mic drop moment, but you, like, kind of said it off the cuff. I don't know. I just want to come back to it.

What.

What was it that you said you view trauma as? Because I think that that was, like, really powerful, and I want to just.

Like, put some weight on that.

Yeah.

Anything that changes how you view yourself, how you view others, or how you view the world.

So.

Good.

Yeah. Because I think a lot of times we think of trauma as, like, you know, this, like, huge event that happens. And we've talked in the past, in past episodes about that, about how that's not necessarily what trauma is, but I love that definition of trauma. Yeah. Do you want talk a little bit more about it?

Yeah.

And I've read something similar. I honestly don't remember where at this point. It was probably like, a decade ago, because as I sit with clients, there's. There's multiple. There are incidences that bring people in, such as car accidents or they witness something really horrific. And quite honestly, those. Those are the incidences that most people would look at and say, oh, my gosh, you have experienced trauma, and you need to be able to heal from that. And the person recognizes, like, yeah, it was pretty horrible. I Witnessed somebody die, I know that that' and then need to heal from it. Or I was in this car accident and I can't drive at night now, whatever the case may be. But honestly, those, those get moved through more quickly than what I would term give the term complex trauma. Because people, what the brain needs to do in those situations with EMDR is basically realize that they are no longer in that trauma or when they see something that reminds them of the trauma it is not, that exact thing is not happening again. And once the brain can do that, it can let it go. Just take the information to integrate what it needs to know, know that it can know better in the future and just trust that it doesn't have to continue to react out that same response again and again. And so I've seen those kinds of memories be processed out as quickly as two to three sessions. I mean it can definitely take longer. But with something like complex trauma, which is kind of more what I'm talking about here, anything that changes your view of self, others, the world, that can be from systems like in Barbie land or you know, like the patriarchy where somebody is more gradually understanding time and time again that they are in some way less than or meant to be, you know, fill in the blank, whatever it is. And that can be far more devastating because to some degree, often these people don't even realize that that is trauma and they need to heal from it because it looks so, it looks common and it looks minor in comparison to these other things we call trauma. And so for example, it's like I give this to my clients, it's like a gallon of water, a bucket being dumped in the sand. Those are those accidents or the near death experiences. People would look at it and say, oh wow, that's a big deal. But these other kinds of things we're talking about are like drips of water in the sand. But they're going over decades, right? Just drip, drip, drip, kind of those microaggressions, those, those comments, those little things that happen that, oh, it's not a big deal, not a big deal. But over time, which one can have more erosion, right? That single bucket dump or this ongoing drip for decades. And so people are often carrying around a lot of trauma, right? Which is the repercussions of these events and don't even realize it and don't give themselves the permission to heal because they don't view it as important enough by comparison.

So good. I think that they did a really good job portraying that in Ken too, of him, you know, not realizing that that was something that he had to heal until the end. And then they. And then he has the sweatshirt that's like, I am Kenuff enough.

Yes.

That was great. But, yeah, I think they did a really good job of showing that piece of it. Of like, no, it's. Now is the start of your healing process. It's not like you just realized it and then now you're. You're healed. Right. So I thought they did a good job with that as well. Yeah.

And the healing is also not in finding that partner, having that partner approve of you. And I even thought there was a really sweet moment where one of the Kens said, I just missed my friend Barbie. You know, like, kind of referencing the fact that they're better together without this competition, without one dominating the other. And it didn't seem like there was a romance. We don't know much about that Ken and Barbie story, but, yeah, it felt very hopeful that there is. There can be movement forward, and that is the. The goal is that balance.

And I think the. The like monologue from America Ferreira. I forget what her character's name is, but, oh, my gosh, it was so good. I think every woman in the theater was like, yeah, that's exactly how it feels to be a woman in our society. It's so good.

Well, that speech in particular, I think, is a great illustration of what I've again seen in my clients. And just recognize in general, creates a freeze response in women. So freeze, when you're talking fight, flight on a societal scale, you know, fighting can look like protesting or taking action to meet a certain end. Flight can be, you know, running away from it. But I think what she talks about there, you do one thing or you do the opposite. You do this other thing or you do the opposite. There is no right way, and you can't run from it. You literally can't get away from society. I mean, you can move to another country, but these overall patriarchal themes in general, it might look different in other countries or a little bit better, but it's still here and it's still affecting us. And so once you realize you can't, you. You can fight. But as far as getting an immediate win is not always going to be the case. Right. So if you can't fight it, you can't run from it, then the response of our nervous system is to freeze. And that it looks a lot of different ways for a lot of different women, but that's quite often the state in which they come in for therapy and Start to realize, oh, my goodness, I've just stopped moving in whatever way that looks like physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually. I just stopped and. And I stopped until we can help them understand. Kind of like that scene where they're going and. And bringing all the different Barbies out of that hypnosis. Right?

The.

The brainwashing. I really resonate with that. There are those moments all the time that I see in my clients. Like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe. I can't believe it got to me. Or I can't believe that that was me for a while. So it was. It was very interesting to watch.

I'd like to read some of the speech in case.

Oh, yes, please.

Heard it. I. I have it pulled up here. And I won't read the whole thing because it's a. Maybe I will. Let's just see. Let's just go with it. And so she says, it is literally impossible to be a woman. You are so beautiful and so smart, and it kills me that you don't think you're good enough. We always have to be extraordinary, but somehow we're always doing it wrong. You have to be thin, but not too thin. And you can never say you want to be thin. You have to say you want to be healthy, but you also have to be thin. You have to have money, but you can't ask for money, because that's crass. You have to be a boss, but you can't be mean. You have to lead, but you can't squash other people's ideas. You're supposed to love being a mother, but don't talk about your kids all the time. You have to be a career woman, but always be looking out for other people. You have to answer for men's bad behavior, which is insane, but if you point that out, you're accused of complaining you're supposed to stay pretty for men, but not so pretty that you tempt them too much or that you threaten other women, because you're not supposed to be. Because you're supposed to be part of the sisterhood, but always stand out. And always be graceful, but never forget that the system is rigged. So find a way to acknowledge that, but also be grateful. You have to never get old, never be rude, never show off, never be selfish, never fall down, never fail, never show fear, and never get out of line. It's too hard, it's too contradictory, and nobody gives you a medal or says thank you. And it turns out, in fact, that not only are you doing everything wrong, but also everything is Your fault. And she finally, finally finished up saying, I'm just so tired of watching myself and every single other woman tie herself into knots so that people will like us. And if all of that is also true for a doll just representing women, then I don't even know.

And I think that's such a great. That ending part is such a great, like, representation of, like, what's even happening with the movie. It's like, oh, so this representation of what's happening is triggering everyone, so. Or not everyone, but it's triggering some people so much that they're having such a backlash. And it's, you know, it's exactly what. What she's talking about in that, like, represent. Representation of a woman in a doll. Same thing with, you know, in a movie. So interesting. And I also really like how she says in that. That speech, how she says, like, we are supposed to acknowledge that the. That it's rigged, but we're also supposed to be grateful. Like, they bring in a lot of more modern things, too, which I really appreciate. It's not like they're even like, the early 2000s or the 90s where it's, like, where, you know, or even, like, the 70s of, like, recognizing, like, the, like, you know, that. That wave of feminism of, like, you know, everything is so terrible. Whatever. There's so many nuances now, and I love that. They also said there was a part where Ken was like, you guys are not doing patriarchy very well if I can't get a job without, like, an MBA or what? And he's like, no, no, we still are. We're just way better at hiding it. And it's like, that was like, oh, my God. And. And one thing that hit home from that speech for me, especially with the work that I do with people and their health habits and. And different things, is that a lot of my clients know that they are not supposed to want to be thinner or lose weight. They are supposed to want to be healthy, but secretly, they want to lose weight, too. And so there's, like, a demonization of that as well. So it's like, everything. You can't. You can't go right with any of it.

Right.

I resonate with this. I was having a conversation with another girlfriend of mine, and I brought it up to you, Michelle, where, when I was living in Chicago, I would get catcalled and honked at, and if I didn't respond with flattery and gratitude, then they would follow up with you, b. Or your, you know, all sorts of negative things, like, I'm supposed to be grateful for being screamed out on the street. And so I was with a girlfriend recently and we were driving. I was driving and then some guys in a lifted truck honked their horn and scared the shit out of me. Because usually the honking comes before the near accident. So I was like, startled and like my heart is going and I'm scared and then I'm angry. And so then I'm like, what the hell was that? And my friend's like, oh. They were just expressing their appreciation at how good we looked. And I was like, that bothers me. And she's like, oh, I'm usually flattered when that happens.

And I was like, really?

It's so demeaning and I don't know, it feels a little predatory, like, I don't know. So I asked you, Michelle, about it and you were. I felt like your response was more in line with how I responded. But what do you guys think?

I agree. I think the main issue I have with those kinds of responses is the realization immediately after you receive it that you cannot have an honest response unless you want to potentially tick someone off or be prepared to maybe receive then a negative comment, something that might be hurtful or whatever in response. Yeah, I think there's a lot to be said about that. But it's, it's really. You're not free to have an honest response in those situations. And women are often afraid to let someone know how it honestly affected them for those reasons.

This happened when they were filming the Barbie movie, when they went to Venice Beach. Did you guys read about that?

No, no.

But in the movie they were do like, they were cat calling her and.

Stuff that was happening for real. So they went to Venice beach and they were filming the movie. And you know, he's like all dressed up in neon and looking outrageous. And they were telling the story about how he was getting like high fived and like, yeah, man who's confident wears pink. You know, all these people were like nodding at him. But then she was like experiencing. People were like, either just like walking by, looking her up and down and then just going, or she was getting cat called. Like, it was very energetically different. And it was an interesting microcosm of what they were trying to portray in the film was what was happening to the actors when they went out into the world.

Wow.

She even says at some point or during that scene, he's like, wow, I feel like everyone is like, I feel so respected. And she's like, I feel like everyone is like staring at me But I don't know if she says predatory, but in a way that makes me feel very unsafe. And I thought that was really. That was really eye opening as well. And I think that's what happens when we get cat called is it's not like, you know, I've seen jokes, I've seen, like, comedians be like, oh, do you think that, like, that that's gonna get me to, like, come over and, like, hook up with you? Or, like, you know, I'm gonna, like, come over and, like, go on a date with you or fall in love or whatever? That's not what they're trying to do. That's never what they're trying to do. It's a power dynamic.

Yeah.

And so.

Yeah, right.

And it's. It's to make them feel more powerful than you. It's maybe not to make you feel unsafe, but it is to. For them to feel more powerful. And so. And that ultimately makes you feel unsafe because, you know, you don't know what they could do.

And when, you know, they get angry. And that's exactly the response that we're seeing to this movie.

Yes, exactly. If.

If we'll call him B.S. which is so great that his initials are BS, right. If B.S. cat calls me and then I tell him I don't like that, then suddenly I'm a baby.

Right.

And in the same way, he's being called out as either a active or a complicit participant in this cycle of abuse against women. And when being called out, he is lashing back out. And so that's what we're seeing is that these people in power or this power structure that's been created, these people are terrified about losing their power because who wants to lose power? That's scary. You know, I don't want to lose power. I don't want to be powerless. And that when people feel called out, it can be hurtful, it can be embarrassing, it can be aggravating, it can be anxiety producing. And then there's lots of ways that we cope, like denial fighting, gaslighting, cognitive gymnastics to make you feel like you're right, Dissociation. And so we're seeing this, like, emotional roller coaster that's happening with men and women who are watching this film.

So.

And even just with the cat calling the. The follow up of, well, it's supposed to be a compliment or you should be happy implies that that should be like, women's number one priority should be to feel beautiful. And anyone who wants to tell us that we should want to hear it. And not only want to hear it, but be grateful to them for. For them choosing to let us know that about ourselves. And so it's. And I mean, I've heard even in other situations, if someone. It's not just about receiving the response well. If someone does receive it well or responds with, oh, I know, I know, that actually can create issues in the response as far as, well, oh, wow, you're just really stuck up then, aren't you? Like, there will be some hostile responses to that because it wasn't about wanting to make the woman feel she's beautiful. It was about wanting the appreciation for be. For taking the time out of your schedule to verbalize to her that she is beautiful and therefore she should be grateful. So it is a powerful power dynamic in that way. Yes.

Oh, my gosh, I'm so glad you brought that up, too, because that was something else that I wrote a note about was at the beginning of the Barbie movie when they're, like, you know, kind of going through the montage of, like, how the women, like, rule. And, you know, they're like, winning the Nobel Peace Prize and they're. Or winning Nobel Prizes and they're winning. Winning different things, giving speeches, all of that. And they're all complimenting each other, and the responses are not just, thank you, like, oh, thank you, you're so sweet. No, I know. Giving it back to the other person. They're not saying, you're so sweet for giving me that compliment. They're saying, I know. And I was like. I was uncomfortable at first. I was like, oh, my gosh, they're being stuck up. And I was, like, noticing that response in myself, and I was like, oh, my God, like, that is so wild. And so I'm like, I told my husband. I'm like, I'm just going to take your compliments and agree with them.

I love that.

Because. Yeah. I mean, I think. I don't know if men do it to the extent that they were, like, portraying it in the movie, but I think it is. It's usually like, like, the. The compliment is taken in, like, the patriarchy that. That we live in. The compliment is taken as, like, yeah, like, validation that, like, yes, I am, rather than now I need to be grateful to you for giving me that compliment.

Yes.

I. I want to make a case that this. That this is a collective trauma, if that sounds all right to you.

Yeah, let's do that. Let's go in.

Yeah. Because I feel like we've been talking about trauma, and then I just hear this like little, little bird in my ear that's like, I don't have trauma. Like someone listening, Like, I don't have trauma. Like, why are they talking about trauma? This is about feminism and power and control. And so why are we even incorporating trauma into this conversation? Can we talk about that?

Yes, for those exact reasons.

Oh, sorry, you want to? Go ahead.

No, no, go ahead, go ahead.

For the exact reasons we've been talking about that. The needing to feel grateful. Right. You can't, you have to. The entire speech that she just said that prevents people from even recognizing or stating or owning that there are things that have affected them negatively. And again, it doesn't have to be those big like capital T traumas again, the big life altering or shattering incidences even. I mean, they definitely are, but it can be these things that alter how we feel about ourselves in any way. To feel less powerful or to feel lesser than, or to feel I'm not capable or I'm not smart enough, or even I'm not smart as, as smart as, you know, fill in the blank. And in this case, we're talking about gender, so it can be any of those things. And so the funny thing is, is that, you know, as I can even just disclose a little as a trauma therapist doing. Have done my own therapy for over 10 years over the last couple years, I actually was recently made aware of my own trauma that I was not even aware that I had. And that came through various, you know, different kinds of practices and being exposed to different practitioners. But it's one of those things that you can't see until you see it. And, and it can show up in hundreds of different ways in your life. But I would, as far as how to find it, that looks different for everyone. But it's those, it's kind of those little nudges, right? Like, oh, this could be different. Or I, I wish. Or if you feel yourself going into an emotional space and you shut it down, like allow yourself to go there and kind of be curious rather than shutting down. Because the shutting down or the telling yourself, oh, I don't. The comparison, I don't have it as bad as that person, or I don't have an experience as big as this. Those are really what keep us from even looking there. That, that I was kind of referring to earlier. So let yourself be curious and it can really show you some things.

Totally. And I, I'm also curious to talk about a little bit about the trauma response that's coming up for men as well, and even men who watch the movie or like, are hearing about the movie who would maybe even consider themselves to be feminists, right? And. But still have like, uncomfy reactions. I'm curious to. To talk a little bit about the trauma response, because that is also a trauma response. Like Dr. King was saying, that's happening there.

I think a lot of that is people's failure to see nuance.

That's what we always talk about on here.

It becomes this like, black and white thing where it's like good versus evil, like, you're in power versus I'm in power. Or am I being mislabeled because I'm not actively putting someone. I hire women or I'm. I have daughters. That's one of a lot is, well, I have daughters and I'm treating them with kindness and respect and giving them equal opportunities. And so I feel like a lot of this trauma response is coming from this. This in a bit, like I said, this inability to see nuance. And so tell me what you're thinking of that.

And I think also it's the inability to see nuance in ourselves too, because I think it's like there's this idea and even, you know, if you're watching the Barbie movie and you, you aren't able to see that nuance, and you're like, well, I'm not a bad person. And I think that that comes up a lot, you know, when we're talking about any type of marginalized, like, population. You know, we've been talking a lot more in our society now about, like, race and how, you know, there's like, the white fragility of being like, well, I'm not a. And so therefore I can't be racist. Right? There's, there's that the, the idea that, like, I, I have to be either all bad or all good. And so that's where the cognitive, like, biases come in and you're like, trying to finagle your way around. Like, no, I'm a good person. And so here's all the reasons that I'm a good person and trying to protect ourselves in that. And I think that the trauma is definitely wrapped up in that as well.

I think a piece of that comes from individuals not being free to not feeling safe in sharing where they know their shortcomings are due to. I mean, some of that is cancel culture. I mean, I'll even share just my own situation. One time I stepped into a flight and I learned that there was a female pilot that was going to be flying it, and it was the craziest thing, I felt a moment of fear as far as, like, oh, my goodness. I. At one point, I remember hearing women could not be pilots. That was a jet planes or were not as. And so for a moment I thought, oh, my goodness, are we okay? Going to be okay. And then the immediate response after that was, of course we are. That has, you know, the logical part of myself kicked in. But that immediate. Those immediate responses that are not aligned with who we overall are and what we know to be true and who we want to be. Actually, I would also define those as trauma. And I think maybe now I'm understanding that's a little bit more where Dr. King was trying to go with that last statement. As far as. I think trauma is anything that has made us believe on an individual level or collective level, something that is not overall beneficial, not best for everyone, everything involved or for yourself. And so when we have those, if we were taught that a certain race or a certain gender or whatever is. Is wrong or bad in some way or is not as capable, then those are going to be. That's that implicit bias that will come up automatically. And people we have that. I can own that. I have that, even if it's a moment or it takes a minute or whatever, but it's. It's very shameful to verbalize out of that fear of being seen as bad. And that's something that, you know, I think people have to be very brave in addressing and do their work on it. Do their own individual and collective work on it.

Gosh, I really appreciate what you just said, Michelle, that. That fear of cancel culture by expressing really difficult shadow things. And I feel really grateful as you're expressing that, that I have people in my life where I'm able to. To say things that maybe I don't mean as a whole person, but there's a part of me that is exploring or questioning or processing that and then not being necessarily held as a whole person to that statement. Part of me is afraid that a woman pilot's gonna crash the plane, but there's another part of me that doesn't believe that or knows that there's something wrong with that. And so then having that opportunity to air that is so powerful, and.

And even right now, I feel scared for sharing that. But it's. It's there, you know, and that's what we need to do. But.

Sorry, I resonate with that, too. So now there's two of us. Everybody who's listened to this podcast for, like, at least three episodes knows that I don't have a history of loving flying, and so my brain will find anything to get afraid about. Yeah. Woman pilots and all.

Yeah, yeah, I've actually heard that before as well. I think on another podcast that someone was sharing the exact same story with a female pilot. That's so interesting.

Cops or like, women are emotional. They shouldn't be in leadership positions.

Oh, my God. Yes, yes. We see that all the time in politics. Yeah.

Which I loved seeing that side of Ken, where, like you said, I think, Hadley, you said at the beginning is that he was portrayed with a lot of traits that we more associate with femininity. Like, he's soft and vulnerable and yielding, and people are like, oh, you're emasculating him.

Right.

But that's also common in a fawn response, and that's actually something I wanted to talk about, is I feel like the Barbie movie is such a great portrayal of the fawn response, which I felt like this was a great opportunity for me to do introspection, because I think that's my number one way of responding to trauma. So can we talk about that, please?

Yes. Can you first explain what the fawn response is for anyone who doesn't know?

Yes. So when we think about trauma, like Michelle was saying, like, we have big T traumas, like those catastrophic, huge, single or multiple events. But then we have the little raindrops, those small T traumas. And the fawn response can show up in response to either of those. It can be fight, flight, freeze, fold, fawn fracture. So those are kind of the main ones. And fawn in particular, it refers to when an individual copes with a perceived danger by attempting to appease whoever's in power or control or authority or whoever's causing the danger. And they're doing that in order to prevent themselves from harm. And so I actually made a list. So if you're wondering, do I fawn? I actually have a list. Can we go through this list together?

Yeah.

And so, as you're listening, put a finger up for each one that you notice that you do. And I'm going to tell you right now, now that mine is 10 out of 10, which is wild. So here are 10 signs that you fawn. Number one, being overly apologetic. Number two, you feel unable to say no. And this doesn't have to be in every circumstance, but it can be when you feel that power dynamic. Right. Number three, assuming responsibility for others moods and reactions. Number four, trying to predict and avoid behaviors that may upset other people. Number five, excessively complimenting the abuser the person in control, the person in authority. Number six, laughing or smiling when sharing your pain to minimize it. Number seven, ignoring or deprioritizing your own needs, wants and feelings. Number eight, blaming yourselves for the abuse, like, oh, I deserved it, I triggered.

Him, or I made him mad.

Number nine, holding on to the hope that if you are good enough or say the right things, that the abuse will stop. And then number 10, taking over caretaker roles like housekeeping, finances, scheduling, going on errands. So I have all ten fingers up if you guys are willing to share. Like, how many did you resonate with?

I had seven in there because there are a few moments, a few things in there where I just, like, have absolutely no tolerance for being like, yeah, I'm like, yeah, no, I'm. You're cut out of my life kind of thing. But seven is a good amount still.

Yeah, yeah, I would say eight. I was kind of. There's one that I might give a half points, like seven and a half, but, yeah, it's up there as well.

And a lot of these fawn responses, you know, people could say, well, I'm just being nice, you know. Yes, I'm laughing because I don't want them to be uncomfortable, but you're really minimizing your own feelings. Or, I just don't want to cause trouble. Like, we can go to whatever restaurant you want. You know, deprioritizing your own needs. People may say, oh, you're being flexible. Don't be rigid.

Okay, I'm gonna say I have eight then. Yeah, that's a good example of that one because, yeah, I was like, oh, I don't really deprioritize, but I totally, like, try to go with the flow, even though I have very strong opinions about what I want.

Totally.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So a lot of these are, you know, we're psychologically manipulated into thinking that their assets, like, I'm a nice person. No, you're a nice person, but you're also fawning. This is a trauma response. And so there's nuance in that too. Like, are you overly apologetic out of a state of trying to protect yourself? Or are you overly apologetic because you have extreme amounts of guilt and self reproach? Like, these are all opportunities to do deeper digging into yourself, which is what this movie is asking us to do in the end.

And I've talked with my sister about there's another one where it's like giving people an out. Like, if you ask for something for a favor or, you know, for someone to do Something for you or, like, even to hang out or anything. Like, and if not, it's totally fine. Like, I totally understand 100 blah blah. Like, and, like, give, like, a whole thing. And I totally do that. And my sister pointed out, she was like, oh, you know why you do that? Like, I do the same thing. It's like, because we don't want to be rejected. And if. If we say all of that, then it won't feel as bad to us to be rejected. And I was like, yes.

So I have more to add to this. I want to kind of, like, drive the fawn response in. And so I want to talk about how Ken fond and how the brainwashed Barbies fond. Are you guys down?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, so I'm gonna give an example of how Ken fond. And then if you can think of another example, then that's worth bonus points because now we're doing it on a point system, I guess. So Penn fond by looking to Barbie for wisdom, healing, insight, and answers. And a specific example of that is Ken was trying to surf, and he went into the wave, and then he went to the Barbie doctor, and he was, like, needing that reassurance and needing that Barbie in authority to heal him, him and fix him, and he was needing Barbie to console him. I do think part of that is just he wanted attention from Barbie and he's flirting, you know, but it. It did put him in a position where he's needing that from somebody else and trying to manipulate his environment to feel safe and protected and, you know, to get what he wants. Right.

Well, and I love that you said. I love that you said that piece too, about, like, manipulating. Because when. When you're talking about all of these phone responses, like, it is manipulation, but it's coming from a place of not feeling like you are able to ask for your actual needs. And so then you feel like you have to manipulate them. So I think it's really important to, like, be. Be cognizant of that and not be like, oh, my God, I'm a manipulative person. But also recognize that it is like, this is a manipulation versus if we.

Felt like we were in power and in control, we wouldn't need to use that because we have it. We're not trying to use gymnastics to get that.

Totally.

Do you guys know another fawn? I have another example, but I want to.

Of Ken.

Yeah, Ken fawning. So remember, fawning is when we're attempting to cope by helping other people feel good. Right. We're trying to, like, make them feel better, give them accolades, taking care of them, trying to regulate their mood. Right. What are other ways that he did that?

Well, there was like, the one scene where he was like, I thought maybe I could stay over tonight. And then she was like, yeah, no, it's girls night. And. And then, you know, he's. He pushes back a little bit, but then he's like, yeah, no, no, totally. Yeah, 100. Like, that makes perfect sense. Like, you. You need to do that. And like, he, like, diminishes his own needs and desires there.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think that's a really good example. And I use the language like that is letting. I couldn't really think of a better word in the moment. But he's kind of letting or he's complicit with whatever the wording is that's better. You can tell me. But she's, like, lived in her dream home with her decor in her neighborhood with her dream car and job and friends and. And girls nights every single night. And we have no idea where he lives. He doesn't have a job that's meaningful. So he is so diminished in. In Barbie world, Barbie land. Like, he is so diminished. And he's just like, I just want her to love me. And like, okay, babe. Yeah, you're right. Whatever you need. Whatever makes you happy.

Right.

So it's like a total and complete fawn response, which is not unlike how I feel like women in the real world are. Right, let's talk about that. How do women in the real world fawn?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's like. It's. It's the exact same thing. It's like. Yeah, no, you. You have to, like, do whatever you need to do or whatever to have your boys night or, you know, to have your. Your like. What's it called? Like, the man den or like the man cave?

Yeah.

Or to have like the. The car, the. The house that you want. All of that kind of thing. I think it's like the exact flip side.

I thought it was interesting. Even the music that was on the radio, even though it was, you know, hitting home, the words in the songs were kind of integral to the theme, but even that was sort of skewed to whoever. Yeah. Was in was the dominant gender at the time.

What was the song all the Kents were playing on the beach.

I want to push you around yeah I wanna push you around yeah, yeah oh, my gosh.

I didn't even. That's such a good point. I just thought it was like a stupid Song. But like, the lyrics are really.

Yeah, literally. Yeah. No, it's so good. It's so even that.

Sorry, go ahead.

Well, I was just gonna say the, the, like the line where she like, comes over to Barbie, comes over to Ken's house and she's like, you know, pretending to like, be into him and he's like, oh, yeah, like, come on in. I can play my guitar at you.

Oh my God, that's four hours.

But how they're all on the beach and actually like, probably not enjoying those lyrics, but they are enjoying it regardless because that's what they know is expected of them. Then another fawning response.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So let's actually talk about how the brainwashed Barbies fond.

Yeah.

So they reduced their intelligence to appease men. Right. So can you help me with this computer program? I just get so confused.

Totally. The brewski beer. Do you want a brewski beer? I thought that was. That was great.

Yeah. Serving them.

Yeah, yeah.

Different clothing. Different clothing options. That was more appealing not for comfort but for visual, you know, appearance.

Yeah. And they were. And it wasn't even. It was visual appearance for the men too. Like, because. Because they were individual appearance before, which I thought was actually cool too, because I think we've like, kind of demonized like wanting to look good because of. Of that. And so. So I thought that was cool too. Like women can want to look good for themselves.

Yes.

What was I gonna say? Oh, the One of the fawn responses was convincing themselves that they actually liked that way more than before. They were like, oh, yeah, like, that was so much work. This is so much better to have the like guys doing all of the things for me.

A vacation for my brain. I think one of them said it's like a spawning. Yeah.

Yep. Yeah. It's like Stockholm syndrome, in a sense. Aligning with your. Your captivator, you're aligning with your abuser. Yeah. But then some people, I know that they'll. They're going to respond with, well, how are the Kens being abusive? They're taking care of them and they're just kind of getting what they want. What's so bad about that? If women want to help them and serve them a women's places in the house. So how is that abuse? How is that brainwashing? Why is that a problem?

Well, right.

And I think we.

Oh, go ahead. Yeah.

Yeah. I think it's like, I think we need to be careful about that too because, you know, like, you might want to actually, like you might want to be Like a stay at home mom or like, not that that's not work, because that's so much work, but you might want to, you know, not be the President of the United States or you might not want to be on the ceremony, Supreme Court and you might want to do, you know, to do whatever. And we need to just have the option to. And so we don't want to demonize that either. And we just want to be able to have the option. And I think that's what you were going to say to Michelle is like, they don't have. They just didn't have the option.

Yeah, because I believe I'd have to go back and rewatch it. But I believe the vote was left to all Kens. At some point it was apparent that Kens were not going to allow, I think, the Barbies to vote because that's why they had to sneakily orchestrate that they would then go to the Capitol and do the voting. Is that right? Is that how you guys remember that?

Yes.

Yeah, I think so. Well, I think, I think they were brainwashed to like the, the Kensington brainwashed them to like not want, not want to vote or something like that. But yeah, it was, it was a little bit ambiguous.

Right. And also physically overtaking that space. I mean, there is definitely more of like, not that he could not enter her home or stay there any longer. So there was, it wasn't just choosing. It was like, no, we're here. Even though he wasn't. He was not being physically abusive per se, or pushing her or anything like that, but he had taken a physical stake on her property as well, as well as a spoken statement about the politics. So I think that it was. Even though it looks like maybe they could have had power, the Barbies, or they could have made changes if they wanted to. It's. It would not have been that easy. And I don't actually think that would be truth.

Yeah, well, and, and to, to be clear, like, this was the case with the Barbies as well. Like, we're not saying that the, that like the Barbies in Barbie land were quote unquote. Right. Like to be very clear, like they were being abusive as well.

Exactly.

I want you to leave.

Yeah.

His needs put her.

Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly.

The key element of a Fawn response is it's not necessarily about the events, but the why of the events. And the. I think the, the differentiating factor is am I giving up or sacrificing my own needs, preferences, goals, aspirations, dreams, clothing choices, etc. Am I giving that up and sacrificing it from a place of trying to protect myself and be safe. And that, I think, is the nuance. It's, you know, people can, like, get into the black and white of like, well, she had her dream house. Why is it a problem if he has his dream house? It's different. It's about the power and the control dynamic.

Right. And that neither is okay. And the key is the balance and giving all genders, any population we're talking about that equals, say, in choice and an environment where they can safely make those choices. Yeah.

And so the way to heal. Healing the fawn response. Let's talk about that. What is our call to action with this film?

Well, with Barbie, it started with her own journey to healing. And same with Ken. Even though, I mean, was not smooth or easy by any means, I think our. My personal opinion would be your own healing is where you need to start looking at your own biases before you can ask that of others. Because that's, of course, if someone else is telling you to do something that you're not doing yourself, that's not going to have much impact anyway. So. Yeah.

Do your own inner work. Yeah, I was.

Yeah, I think. I think part of it is also like they. They did in the movie of, like, when they, like, snapped people out of the brainwashing. It doesn't. It's not that easy. But to start with the, like, awareness of, like, oh, yeah, like, I am supposed to be this way, but I'm also supposed to be this way, but I'm also supposed to be this way.

And.

And recognizing that is definitely like a first, a first step in. In the process of healing. I think even just identifying those inner beliefs, like the inner belief that, you know, a female pilot wouldn't be as safe or whatever, like, those implicit things and noticing them without judgment, too. Noticing them without being like, oh, my God, I'm so bad for that because. And so same goes to the men who watched this movie and were like, you know, very triggered by it, or not that triggered by it, but, like a little bit. And like, they're like, what the. You know, like, I don't. I feel uncomfortable. Is acknowledging that they feel uncomfortable and actually being okay with that and not thinking that they should be a different way than they currently are. Does that make sense?

Totally. I have some thoughts I wrote down. I want to add to that, if that's okay.

Yes, please.

Yeah, I wrote some ideas on how to heal a fawn response. And so what I have is that fawn Responses are reinforced when we turn away from ourselves and turn to others, because then our focus is outward and it's not inward, like Michelle, you were talking about. Just like looking inward and doing your own inner work. And so the first step is to pay attention to yourself, your needs, your preferences, your desires, your longings, your boundaries, your purpose. And Barbie went on that journey. And Barbieland was amazing. And she had the high heels and she had the power. And I really loved that she did not want the Birkin. Why would you want the Birkenstock? When you have perfection and power and control, why would you want the Birkenstock? But then in the end of the movie, she picked the Birkenstock. She walks into the gynecologist in her Birkenstocks. She did this deep and powerful and introspective work, and she discovered, who am I? Who is Barbie? And she wanted that for him. She didn't want her to be in power and control. She didn't want him to be power and control. She wanted them to both look inward and see who I really am as an individual who's Ken without Barbie and Ken who's kept. And he gave him this invitation to then look at himself. And so then we're not living in that dichotomy. And it's great that the movie ended in dichotomy because we still, as a human race, live in dichotomy. But what I would love to see as we move towards healing is that we take this. This tension that the movie leaves us at the end of, and that it allows us to then try to live in the nuance, to have the Birkenstocks, but then to have the high heels, to own our power, but then to identify when am I taking power away from somebody else? Control purposes. And totally so.

And it wasn't serving her, you know, like, it's. It's also interesting because it seemed like it was serving all of the Barbies to have it be that way. And it seems like that's the case in patriarchy, too. But it's not like it. Like, it's detrimental to everyone. It's not just detrimental to the people who aren't in power. And so I think, yeah, I think coming to that journey from either side of it, like, it's both necessary.

Yes. I love that. I love that you said that. It, like, really, truly, the world wants. World wants balance. You know, you put a. An ice cube in the sun, it will re. It'll go into equilibrium.

Right?

And, like, if you eat too much Sugar, your body will go into equilibrium. It'll release insulin. Like, everything needs balance for every action. There's an opposite. And so when there's a huge power and control dynamic, we need an opposite swing. But then eventually peace comes from, like.

You were saying, Hadley, like, being in.

The middle.

That middle path. We always swing the pendulum, you know, and hopefully the pendulum gets a little bit smaller and smaller until it meets in the middle.

And maybe that's what the people in Power and Control are afraid of, is they're terrified of an overcorrection. Like, I don't exactly. That people are like, oh, well, they're going to take my power and we're going to be even. I feel like a lot of the people that are terrified are like, all these people are outraged. And it's going to be like a severe overcorrection.

Right?

Yes. I actually think that that's probably a big part of what the lash. The backlash to this movie is probably about that. That women are trying to say, this is how it needs to be, as it is in Barbie land, and not really look at, like you were saying, the nuance of. What are we trying to say about how this is harming everyone?

Right, Totally. Yeah. They're saying. So you're saying that we need to. Yeah, no, that's actually. Did you watch the movie? Did you watch the whole movie? Yeah.

As we're finishing up on this conversation, what else came up for you two? Any other thoughts or things you wanted to bring up?

I thought it was interesting with several. There were several moments where Barbie would tune in and notice other people's emotions, and she would feel it, she would cry, she would laugh. And ultimately at the end, she chose to be human. It was about. And that's part of the healing process, too, I think it's actually in the movie, kind of illustrating what being present and what starting some of that inner healing work can be do. And that's through being in the moment. We're talking about mindfulness, experiencing your reality, whether it's good or bad in that moment, and sitting with that, tolerating, allowing it without judgment. And as we do that, that is how we start to tune into our inner selves. Right. Our inner core self. And who. Who am I? And therefore, what do I want to need and be beginning to have a baseline to move forward and make that change that we need for ourselves. That I thought was. Was nicely done.

I love that she was alone during that, too. She's, like, sitting there and her eyes are closed and she's Looking around at people, and it was like a very still space.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That was really cool. And she even. There was a. There was a point where she. She identified sort of like the. The emotion, but not the. The word for the emotion, but it was like, I feel like, sad, but it also feels good.

Yes.

She.

When she goes through. Yeah, I thought that was really, really powerful, too. Really cool.

Wow. So this is a good movie.

I. Yeah.

Also, just, like, all. There are so many great lines. And just like, I. I've told Todd all about it, my husband. I think you have to watch this movie because I actually think. I actually think he would like it because he likes, you know, like, he likes movies that make fun of society, essentially. So I'm like, I think you would actually like this one. But I think, yeah, there are some just great absurd moments, too. Like, Will Ferrell's character is hilarious. He's like, I didn't get into this to, like, make money. I got into this because I wanted to, like, empower young children in, like, the least creepy way possible. Like, there are just, like, some great lines, too. So. So I. I appreciated it for that as well.

I did think it was interesting at the end, speaking of Will Ferrell's character, that when someone brought up the idea of a actual. So there's already a lot of great, powerful Barbies. Great. You know, the professions and. And representations of different ways of life. But when they brought up. Oh, what about an actual emotional state Barbie that. Who is a Barbie?

Who.

Do you remember what it was like, not crippling anxiety, but just.

No, it was like. It was like, normal Barbie or, like, normal. Yeah, like. Yeah, like normal Barbie or something like that. Where she. Yeah, things like emotions.

Yeah, absolutely not. And until someone said, oh, it's going to make a fortune, he's like, I am in. So there. Even though he wants what's best for young girls, there's something there I still have to pick at. I haven't really thought much about it, but it's interesting that if it's normal and healthy on that level, then unless it's profitable, he's not interested. I don't know. There's something interesting.

Totally. Yeah.

Yeah.

Well. And he also says the part where she. It's like, well, what's Barbie's happy ending or ending or whatever? And he's like, she loves Ken. Like, she falls in love with Ken and she's like, yeah, no, not my ending.

Yep.

So good.

And Ruth, at the end of the movie, she said, humans only have one ending. And ideas live forever. And I feel like this is such a. A wonderful conversation that I hope people will listen to and that it can create changes and that these ideas will then be passed down to future generations that can keep evolving because the three of us, because we are in our Birkenstocks, you know, the three of us won't live forever. But that's why we have this podcast, why we. Why we're out here in the world having these difficult conversations. And I'm really honored that you're both here and that we're being vulnerable and we're talking about, you know, gender and masculinity and femininity and matriarchy and patriarchy and meaning and life and trauma and, you know, having these important conversations. And I'm really grateful for you guys to be here and then for listening. So if you're. If you made it through this conversation, thank you so much for being here, and we would love to hear your thoughts and opinions. Was there anything that you didn't agree with? Was there something that came up for you that we didn't even touch on? What kinds of questions do you have, especially pertaining to trauma? Because this is. Michelle here is like the gal for that. And so be sure to check out her Instagram to remind you of her handle. It's at mind dot renewal, trauma dot recovery. And definitely, if you can go and give her a follow right now. And then, Hadley, you want to bring us home?

Yeah.

Thank you so much for coming on and chatting with us about this. This is, like, it's so fun because it's Barbie.

I know. Yeah. It's such a great way to make it accessible.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

And I mean, I think that's what's so great about the. So genius about the movie. Like, it's not a black mirror episode where it's, like, super dark and twisted. It's like bubblegum and, like, pink and all of this stuff. And so I think that's what's so genius about. About the movie, honestly. But, yeah, so thank you so much for coming on and having this, like, this conversation about a seemingly, like, bubblegum type movie, but really going in deep with it and. And kind of uncovering all of the different lessons that we can uncover. And we would love to have you back on the podcast sometime, Michelle, because you're just a wealth of wisdom and so. Yeah. So thank you. Thank you all for listening. Thank you for being here, and we will talk to you very soon.

Well, thank you again and thanks so much. This is my passion. This is this has been wonderful.

Amazing. Thank you.

Bye y'.

All. Bye.

The recording you just listened to consists of the personal opinions of Dr. Nicole Cain, a naturopathic doctor with a master's in clinical psychology, and Happy Healthy Hadley, an Ayurveda expert with a master's in health, behavior and health education. While these opinions are based upon literature, counseling education, medical training and and clinical experience, this content should not be viewed as the definitive opinion on these subjects. Listening to this podcast is not a substitute for any sort of medical, psychological.

Or other form of treatment.

If you are in a Crisis, please call 911-OR call the National Suicide Prevention Line at 1-800-273-8255. If you are in need of counseling, don't hesitate to make an appointment with a counselor in your area. Dr. Nicole and Hadley are passionate about you becoming the expert of your own emotional and physical well being. If this resonates with you and you think this podcast would help someone you love, please share it with them. We look forward to seeing you on the next episode of the Holistic Inner Balance Podcast.