DO YOU HAVE WHAT IT TAKES TO BECOME #1 IN SALES

Today we got a great interview, a very senior guy who's done really well, got into sales different than some people. Most of us, uh, we try and get into it because it pays well and we see a future there. Sometimes we get pulled into it. Today we're going to be talking about how you can really connect with people. How can you prioritize the deals that you have, the opportunities in front of you Because today it's very different. It used to be about the ones that came to us or the ones we know the best. Today we open up our computer and it's just full of distractions, but in there are some needles in the haystack. And we've been taught for years that it's all about numbers and just go hunt Hunt and try and find that needle. Instead, what we should be doing today is, where's that needle most likely to be? When's the best time to get it? Why this place over another? It's called judgment, and it really should be a superpower, one that takes a lot less time than it currently does to develop. Something you have to work on, but once you have it— It's always there. Let's get into the interview. I'll sum it up at the end.

Hey Steve, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Okay. Uh, I've been in, um, in corporate sales, uh, basically capital equipment for over 40 years. And I've had the privilege before that of, uh, running small and large businesses.

And what was the motivation to get into sales?

Well, um, after having 100 people work for me and the attending issues that go along with that, um, I thought it would be a good opportunity to take some of the, um, experiences I had and leverage those into providing solutions for people out on the street. And it's been very, very, very pleasant.

Well, what do you like about it?

I like the interaction between myself and the customer, of course, and the people that I work with in my own company. But more importantly, I just like the ability to help solve solutions and make sure that people get what they need. Yeah.

And what type of sale is it? Is it very competitive or is it very service-oriented or?

No, it's extremely competitive. The stuff that— the solutions that we provide in automation usually have significant dollar value to the customer with usually significant payoffs over a period of time. And yes, it is very competitive.

And how do you differentiate yourself?

That's a really interesting question. The first thing I think is just being able to listen consistently to the client. I find a lot of folks in sales tend to want to do some type of a product dump or a solution dump and say, this is what I've got, do you want to buy? And that's really not my style at all. It's more— it's a hackneyed phrase, but it's more consultative. Yeah, and I found that when, when you talk with, uh, with people who are looking for this type of equipment, if you just listen, they will tell you really what they want. And sometimes it's kind of surprising.

It is, isn't it?

Yes.

Well, give me a sense of like what type of questions you ask.

Well, I like to deal at all levels, whether it's on the shop floor all the way up to the the CEO level. And I like to ask the officers of the company or the managing directors, whoever they might be, not about the real reason I'm there initially, but where they want to be in 5 years or 3 years or 10 years. It kind of gives me an idea of where their company is going. And it gives me additional information about where they think they want to be And if we can sculpt something to help them get that way, it's much more interesting to do it that way. Yeah, I like that.

And are they open about that, or—

Oh yeah, you'd be surprised. Um, in fact, I found even just recently, I was at a rather large facility, uh, one of multiple plants and company here in the US, and I was talking to the COO about this particular subject? He looked across the table at me and he said, Steve, I've never had anybody ask me that question from the outside. Now, from the inside, it's always, you know, his associates are trying to figure out what's going on. But it's hard to, it's hard to look at a long-range investment without having some kind of guidance like that. Right?

Because otherwise, people go with the cheapest, or—

They could, and that may not be always the right way to go. No, but, uh, you've got to make things flexible so that people can grow into it and actually make more use of it. That's one.

And how about— so you go more of a top-down sell? Is that the process, or—

Well, after, after doing this for all the decades I've done it, uh, yeah, it's, it's gathering. Here's, here's an antidote. And I tell this to my sales teams a lot. I said, be sure that you get at all levels within the company that you're going to deal with.

Yeah.

Person on the floor, the supervisor, whatever you need to do, but never ever leave out the person who writes the check.

Yeah.

And I had a CEO I worked for in Chicago for a long time. He always said that you can sell to whoever you want to, but if you don't find the gentleman that writes the check or the lady in this case, Um, you've lost the sale. As C-level people have a different viewpoint about the investment.

They do. And by the time it gets to them, they, they may have just seen it for the first time. And then the sales process starts all over again.

You're correct, right? It's— yeah, it's— I've had to correct a few of those problems before.

And in your business, is that owner or the CEO typically the owner as opposed to a hired person?

Probably where I'm at now, about 40% of the time, yes. Yeah. Um, and other, other, uh, venues that I've worked in or run companies in, uh, it was, it was more 60% was A hired officer. I find that dealing with the person who actually owns the business is a lot easier.

Yes, because they're pretty open about what they care about. Pretty direct.

Pretty direct. They don't— a lot of them do not hesitate. If they see something, they go, yep, that's what we need, or nope, that won't work. So what's the alternative? And there's not this long trail of board meetings and committees and all that kind of stuff to go through.

And yeah, and it's more economic than political.

Very much so. Yeah. Very much so.

How long did it take you to come to this approach?

Probably about the first year and a half. And it wasn't a conscious thing. It was more, you know, I've been running a couple of businesses for the owners before I got into sales. And it was kind of an osmosis thing. You're going to be successful, you better approach it this way. But it wasn't like somebody, you know, wrote this down for me. It was really just learning by experience. Luckily, it didn't take me too long to learn it.

And did you become good at it quickly, or did it just— the lights go on, you go, wow, that was a much better conversation?

Uh, actually, yes, it did happen for me. I was very, very fortunate. It happened to be very quickly when I got into sales. Um, the arrangement that, that I had with the company that I was representing, um, was pretty— was pretty tough. Um, and what I mean is If you don't sell something, you don't eat. That's the way it was put to me by the owner. And this is— it was a $30, $40 million company, so I wasn't smoking. And I made money from the first week, uh, which kind of surprised myself and also him in a nice way. Um, but, uh, yes, school of hard knocks is sometimes brutal.

If you didn't close something, you didn't eat. Did that mean that you were on commission only or—

Straight commission. I paid all my own expenses. And it was quite an experience for a number of years. But it was, you know, I can't help but say I love doing this. I just love it.

And you sound like somebody, you don't like to waste your time.

No, I like to kind of cut to the chase. Although I've been living in— I live in Atlanta and my wife and I moved down from Chicago about 15 years ago and working in the Midwest and I've worked in Europe and Mexico and Canada and so forth. Each of them have different cultures and how to approach them in sales. In the South, it's much more of a relationship building.

Yeah.

There's a hackneyed phrase down here, you know, You go see someone, you got to sit down and talk about your mama and talk about your grandparents. And that's really true. And all, and all that is, is building trust. That's all it is. And I really do enjoy that part of the business.

Was that an adjustment? Because Chicago was a little bit more straightforward.

Chicago was very fast-paced. Yeah. And very much, don't waste my time. Moving to the south, southern part of the country, because I grew up out west, so that's a whole different culture out there. But moving to the southeast, it's a little bit more relaxed, but just the same intensity. Yeah, that's— it's just, to me, it's just a lot of fun. I have a lot of passion for what I do, as always.

And what were some of the other things you learned that first year or two?

The most important thing I learned was you've got to be able to ask the right questions to the right person. You've got to do research. You've got to know what you're doing, what you're selling, or what you're presenting. But more importantly, you've got to know people that you're going to talk to. What are they— what turns them on? What makes their business grow? How are things going? So that you cover the bases when you talk to folks and listen to them and respond correctly. And I find a lot of the sales folks that I've had the pleasure of working with, for the most part, have learned that lesson also. Gotta ask the right questions, otherwise you never get the sale.

Yeah, and people do just the opposite. They spend all their time memorizing features and functions and Competitive advantages.

Yes.

And go ahead.

If you're talking to the foreman on the shop floor in the machine shop and you're selling them a solution, he really wants to hear that technical stuff. Yeah, he thinks that's important. But I was privileged to be the officer of 3 large companies, and at that level, technical things aren't Aren't the deal. What is my return on assets? What's my return on the investment I'm gonna make? So you need to be able to cover all the bases. And fortunate.

What motivates you?

What motivates me? Besides taking care of my family.

Survival, yeah.

Survival's a big deal.

I—

everybody has problems, right?

Yeah.

And in sales, you're a problem solver. That's kind of what you've got to do. But what gets me up in the morning is the fiduciary relationship I have with people that I work with and also my clients. Um, it— there is a real trust building that you have to do, and to me, that's really, really important, and I really want to succeed at doing that. And the, the other part of it is every single day when I get up, it's different. And you like that part? I thrive in that part. Yeah, it, uh, it drives some people nuts, but if you can't multitask and you can't learn every day, then, you know, why get up? I'll go play golf. Yeah.

And do you spend a lot of time on the road?

Uh, historically, about 60% of the time.

Yeah.

And, uh, I was, I was talking to my wife a couple weeks ago when I was just thinking about how many days on the road I've spent in my life, uh, away from her, away from the family. And it's, it's 60%. And that, uh, is where I thrive. She says, if you, if you stay home more than 10 days, uh, I'm looking for a reason for you to go sell something.

Yeah. And do you find it hard doing the research on the road?

No, not at all. Uh, before there was the internet, because I go back way before that, um, a lot of time in the library sometimes.

Yeah.

Uh, but with the internet and the availability of the tools, no, it just— it takes minutes to find stuff out. Um, you know, I use all the social sites and look at stuff and compare things. And it's really not that hard at all.

And what key things are you looking for? Let's say you're going to meet an owner of a business. What would you look for?

Some type of information on why he started the business.

Okay.

Did he inherit the business?

Yeah.

Did he change the business when he, when he took over, for instance? And a lot of times though, they will put up on their websites or you can get it through other information, you know, what kind of things they contribute to. Are they a big supporter of a particular charity? I'm going to give you an example. There's a company that I'm dealing with in Florida where our offices are, and he spends— the owner spends an inordinate amount of time with a particular charity in Miami building training systems for youngsters that don't have a privilege of going to higher education. He takes a lot of his profits and does that. And so when you talk to people like that, you have to understand what their motivation in business is. It's not always about making a buck.

Yeah.

And that makes it very interesting. I'm dealing with an owner right now that he and his wife have been plugging away for 10 years on this project, and suddenly their company is just going right through the roof and all that hard work is paying off. And it's really a pleasure to sit down with them and chat, see where they're going to be next year.

And do you blatantly bring it up or do you just kind of hint about it to see if they bite?

You mean about the solution or about the information?

Well, yeah, that information, because I agree with you, it's insanely valuable.

Yeah. Well, here's the deal. I've often told folks that I work with, if you're in sales and you don't have stories, you're not in sales. You have to be able to have some type of way of building a relationship with someone you've never met before.

in your life.

So if you understand what their motivation is in life, how their family life is perhaps, certainly where they want their business to go, you can relate that to other people that you know, even in the same industry or experiences you've had. And it becomes a bonding ritual almost.

Yeah.

Not to take advantage of anything, but to just understand how the other person thinks.

Yeah, and it's if you have a common interest and you build off of it, right?

Exactly.

Um, but it's a subtle art because you don't want to appear like you did stalking. You know, research is good, right?

Yeah, research is good, stalking bad.

Yeah, stalking bad. Because like, if you go on Facebook and, you know, they, they're a soccer coach, and you can't open up with, oh, how's your son's soccer game going? You Right.

It's— no, you're right, Brent. I've actually seen people do that. Yeah. And it's embarrassing.

Yeah. You just gotta, you know, mention that, oh, my kid's soccer game, I, I gotta head back towards it. So, and all my kids play soccer, and then you got rapport going.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And a lot of the information that I gather, I may never use, but it gives me an idea of how to approach someone.

Yeah, that they're looking to help others, that they have a certain view on, uh, college or alternatives to college.

Yes, sir.

Absolutely.

In that case, absolutely.

Would you see that as your strongest point, or is it— I'm sensing more empathy where you understand what they're going through.

That's a very important part of my approach, I believe.

Yeah.

I mean, I don't spend a lot of time doing self-analysis, but no, I'm being serious. I mean, some people do it. I think it's, you know— Not looking in the mirror all day. Yeah, it's not really what I want to see. But yes, that's a strong part. The other thing is, and I feel that good salespeople that rise to the top are also this way, I'm real inquisitive.

Yeah, curious.

Very curious about things. I tell my wife, I go into places that you would never know that's how things are made or that's how things are produced. And to me, it's just absolutely fascinating and makes me feel good inside to know that stuff.

Well, I bet you ask for like the plant tour.

Oh sure, absolutely.

Yeah.

Absolutely. If that's possible or arrange a second trip or, you know, another example, I've got a client up in Georgia that I went into, I never met them before. They make a certain product. They happen to be the United States leader in making this product. And I had a business in St. Louis and I actually used that product for 20 years. And I never knew who made it. Yeah, because their name is different than what's on the container. And so I was talking to their CEO about it, and he said, really, you've used this stuff forever? I said, yeah, I used to. And I— it's wonderful, and it's really cool that you've shown me how things are actually going to happen. And he was, uh—

Well, the place of power is such a powerful tool if you're curious, because you start to see, you know, do they have brand new equipment? Do they have ancient antique equipment? Are the people happy? And you've got a bunch of stuff to talk about.

Well, yeah, I never go in with a, with a predetermined script on what I'm going to try to present. Yeah, that plant tour opens things up for both of us. You're exactly correct. It's the joy of my life to be able to see this stuff.

And what do you wish you learned faster? You know, because you were kind of thrown into it.

Well, there's a lot of things I wish I'd learned faster, but the thing I didn't know very well when I went into this part of the business is the financial impacts. Because I didn't come out of my, you know, my college years and my graduate school years with a degree in finance. And it would've been helpful if I had more training. I took a lot of training afterwards.

Yeah.

To get familiar with it, but you gotta speak the right language in that situation. And it became very, very much more helpful when I knew it. How do these people evaluate the worth of something they're going to purchase for the company or the service they're going to use? And how do you, how do you put that together so it makes sense? That's the one thing I wish I'd have learned earlier.

Because the financial people have a big vote in the say of which product they buy.

In a lot of cases they do.

Yeah.

In a lot of cases, the chairman or whoever I'm talking to who makes the decision on how to spend the money will just simply turn around in his chair and say, Jack, what do you think about that? Jack being the CFO or the— so you better have the answers available at that point in time.

Right. So it's just an understanding. How they depreciate it, how they're going to finance it.

Yep. You're exactly correct.

And I got to imagine in your space how you spend your time, given that, you know, being on the road is just insanely time-consuming because you're traveling from site to site.

Sure.

How do you prioritize those things?

I'm not sure that I have a real plan. However, You have to be on the phone a lot, in my opinion. You've got to be talking to people constantly.

Yeah.

I'm fortunate in the company that I work with now, I have a very good marketing manager who can do some research for me or get some information that I need even when I'm traveling. But just like yourself, I'm sure, I don't work 5 days a week.

No.

7 is minimum.

Well, okay.

And yeah, you just have to get prepared. You have to be prepared through the weekend or whatever it takes at night so that you're constantly on top of your game as you're going to place. You need to map out where you're going, what makes sense, who can you help. And then also very importantly, that a lot of people forget, you better not make the schedule so tight that when something comes up, you can't immediately flex. Yes. And so I'm pretty good at that and flexing.

Do you have like fixed times during the day that you do meet with people with gaps?

I try to, I try to be, try to be at a particular client usually around 9 or 9:30 in the morning.

Yeah.

To start out. That gives them time to get stuff adjusted in their business.

Right.

Uh, and then I usually try to plan an hour, hour and a half for each call if I'm making. Um, and then you got the drive time and so forth. But, um, I try to accommodate the client's schedule or what I think it is, at least initially. And I have no problem meeting people at 5 in the morning or midnight. I've done a lot of that.

But I got to also imagine that you probably don't close like a ton of deals per quarter. They're probably very large deals and, and few and far between. Is that true? I have no idea what the price point is.

Uh, price point for me on the, on the systems that I'm presenting run between $350,000 to $2 million.

Okay. So it's not every day you close a deal, right?

It's not every day. And the gestation of those deals from start to finish can take 6 months to a year to begin with.

Yeah.

So you've got to constantly be generating new opportunities. And, um, and so I do a lot of that. It's finding new places or mining your existing customers for a different, uh, set of problem-solving solutions. But you're right, I don't, I don't close one every day. That's true, unfortunately.

And have you developed a sense of, you know, just by talking to them, what the likelihood of them buying is and when?

Oh yeah, I'm actually fairly direct in that. Yeah, I've learned that, uh, You don't need to build a monument to yourself. This ain't about you. Despite how much you'd like to. Yeah. The deal is, and some people have a lot of trouble with this, but I have no difficulties looking across the table at whatever level person I'm talking to. Is this funded? Are you guys going to do it this quarter or this fiscal year? And what's your budget? You don't always get an answer, a specific answer to any of those 3 questions, but if you don't get some answer, you're wasting time.

Well, you're also looking for a reaction. If you get a reaction like, oh, I've never thought of that, that's pretty bad. Oops. Or if they say, well, you know, you're at the high end, or you're the whatever, They thought about it, right? And there's this— because is there typically a compelling event that causes the trigger of purchasing your equipment?

Uh, yeah, the one that's going on now, of course, is just you can't find people. Okay, that's a big trigger. Or, or the companies are all of a sudden growing so fast that they— even if they could hire a lot of people, they couldn't keep up.

Yeah.

So those triggers happen fairly quickly. In the past, there's been a lot of, as you mentioned before, the equipment's old, it's taking a lot of maintenance time, we're spending a lot of money here, we need a better solution.

Right.

Those tend to be a little bit longer in gestation because it's not an immediate thing. But when you can't find people or you've got supply chain problems like we all do at the moment, Automation is— it becomes very important, and that tends to make people act quicker.

And how about like the end of the fiscal year or calendar year where they've got money and they don't want to give it to the government?

Yes, because none of us do. Uh, yeah, we're working with, uh, the owner and myself with the company, uh, are working on 3 projects right now where we've literally been called and said, look, I've got this much money to spend, what can you sell me?

Yeah.

Which I think is, uh, quite fascinating. Yeah, great problem to have.

And do you have, uh, people who work for you now, or—

Oh yeah, oh yeah, sure.

Okay.

I have, uh, salespeople and engineers.

And what supplement would you give them? Let's say there was a, a particular vitamin sales What would you put in the vitamin sales? Does that make sense?

Yes, it does.

Sorry, sorry. You have an opinion then, right?

All right.

Yeah.

Here's my opinion. I give them vitamin S. And vitamin S is speed. Go faster. Go faster.

Faster with the deal or faster with just their Faster with the response. Yep.

Faster with the understanding, ask more questions internally. There are intrinsic timelines to everybody's project and you can't extend them. So, if you don't react quickly, you may be out of the deal anyway. You have to do it in a very controlled manner, but you can't become complacent is what I'm trying to say.

Yeah, because I think a lot— there's a lot of confirmation bias in sales, happy ears. And yeah, because both people are playing it. The client's playing it and we play it. We hear what we want to hear. We're a little optimistic because we wouldn't be in sales if we weren't optimistic.

That's correct. Yeah, that's correct. A little dose of reality is always good for you.

And that's— how do you give that to reps without, you know, spoiling the party?

Well, uh, if you can't, if you can't measure it, you can't manage it. Yeah. So I request information.

Okay.

You know, what, what has the client told you about this project? Where are we at in the process? When is this thing going to close? What's the percentage of time we need to put into it? What's the percentage of close that you think it is? And then I talk about this on a weekly basis with people. And if things aren't changing, something's wrong. Or if you're going to tell me it's going to close next week and 3 weeks go by, you didn't really have your stuff together.

Well, this is a great point because this is the difference between like servicing a client And selling a client.

Yes, sir.

Because anybody can be responsive, you know, send me a proposal on machine X. But if you're not asking those hard questions, getting them to understand what they have to do internally to get this done, you're not helping them. You're not, right? You're just a website, essentially. And, and people feel a little uncomfortable at first, given that pushback, but it's really beneficial.

For both parties. Yes, it really is. Uh, I, in a general way, I don't want to waste the client's time, nor do I want to waste my time, but their time is much more important than mine. So tell me what the schedule is. Tell me what you guys are really thinking about. And if it's a year and a half out or 2 years, uh, call— I'll call you in 6 months, you know.

Well, and that's it. And you're in space, you know, they are thinking years ahead.

Yes.

But the reps are thinking this quarter, right?

Reps are thinking this week.

Yeah. And that's, that's a hard adjustment.

Yeah, it is. For a lot of people, it's very difficult.

Because it is, you know, building up that rapport and that trust and understanding their timelines and keeping enough of them warm through this process.

Sure. Yeah. And you got to pay attention. So you said, how do you do that without making people feel uncomfortable. And it's more a, um, it's a teaching moment. Yeah, here's what, here's what you might want to look for. This one seems to be going a different direction. Why don't you try this? Well, that's kind of my approach.

Well, I, I think like what you said about, uh, doing the preparation before the call, the research, it's really like, you know, get a sense of where they've been, where they look like they want to go. And making sure you've got your questions queued up.

Yes, sir. You're exactly correct.

I don't know how many meetings I've left and I go, hmm, I should have asked this.

All right, man, I should have asked it a different way. Right?

Yeah, because typically they wiggle on the first request, right? Like on the budget or the funding or the timing, because the timing, they always say the same, soon as possible, which tells you nothing. Right.

Absolutely nothing.

Right. Tells you absolutely nothing. And but then you have to kind of like back— what's driving this? Do you have a new business unit? Is a piece of equipment expiring? Are you planning on growing? Do you have a new plant?

And those are the most important questions. Yeah.

And have you been able to hire people outside the industry and have them move into this type of sale?

Yes, sir.

Yeah. What's their background?

It's actually pretty varied. One of the best associate sales associates I ever hired had absolutely no background in sales. He actually came out of finance. And the reason I even took a chance on him is Because the man had moxie. He came to me and said, you know, Steve, I really want to do this. I watch what you do. I see what the team's doing. I wonder if you would consider me to be a part of the team on this side of the business. And so we went through some training stuff and he was actually extremely successful, much more than I ever thought.

And he, in the transition of communicating with non-financial people, went okay?

He was not, uh, bad at all at it.

Yeah.

He was very empathetic. He was very, uh, he'd listen. Um, obviously he had a little different slant on things, which actually became quite valuable. But more importantly, he wanted to do it.

Yeah.

And I'll give anybody 50 chances that really want to make a success out of themselves.

Well, that's it. If you get the want and the intellectual capacity.

Right.

Yeah. And he had the finance side down.

He had the finance side down. And the thing that I tested him on, which I test anybody that wants to get in the business of sales, I said, do you understand that every day you put your job on the line? Every single day. It's not sitting in a booth 8, 9 to 5, and somebody handing you things to do. You have to create all your own stuff. And I've had engineers that want to go in sales, and I've asked them that question. They go, oops, wrong, wrong thought process. I don't want to do that.

Well, that, that's the big one. Because if people get comfortable, you know, getting paid to just show up and hope they do something good, Versus you only get paid if you do something good.

Yeah, hope is not a plan.

Hope is not a paycheck.

That's true. That's true. Cool.

Hey, Steve, I really appreciate your time today. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

Uh, I'm on LinkedIn, of course, uh, Steve Calvert, and, uh, try me there. Or I'm of course on my company, but I don't want to promote the company right now. Um, just find me on LinkedIn. There's plenty of stuff to follow.

Because when you can see the world the way your clients see the world, understand their long-term motives, understand where they are, how they got here, what's, what's bugging them, what problems or symptoms of problems do they have that you could possibly help with? Because even if it's not your product, it's a great way to stay in touch and build that network. And that's something that we seem to forget. We're always looking for that quick hit, and I get it. The problem is, if it's not there, all that time and energy you put into looking for it doesn't get you anything. Selling to— today, a lot of people just think it's a bunch of tactics. It's what you say. But in these larger complex sales, it's much more what you do and how you do it and how well you help your clients get it done. And I don't mean just, uh, with your product. I mean be able to buy your product and talking to the right people about the right things. And how do you do this? Well, you could sit around and wait 5 or 10 years of trial and error, which will cost you quite a bit of money compared to what you could be earning. Your opportunity cost— how much could you have made this year if you were the next level better, as good as the best person you've seen or heard, maybe on the podcast you've seen in your company. What's that delta? And today that delta is pretty big. And how do you rationalize that? Because a rationalization is a little lie we tell ourselves so that we don't feel a little bit of pain, a little bit of discomfort of trying to admit that we could be better. And guess what? We all can. And that's where the gold is. It's not being comfortable. Comfortable and lazy. It's being aggressive and a little uncomfortable. Go to b2brevenue.com, swipe up, look in the show notes, watch the video on the courses. Take your game to the next level. How can you do it? Hanging around people not as good as you? No, you got to hang around with people who are as good as you or better in different areas and be able to network And have a community of people that want to become better and learn these distinctions. Because things have changed in sales, but you haven't. You have to— you're the only one that can make you change. You can sit through the stupid course that your company gives you about this or that or whatever from people who have never sold or haven't sold in forever and never had much success. Or you can learn from some of the best. B2BRevenue.com. Appreciate everybody who listens to the podcast, shares my content on LinkedIn, tells a friend about the show. I do appreciate it. We'll see you next time.