HOW THIS REP SUCCEEDS IN THE MOST DIFFICULT OF MARKETS

Today's guest has got a great background, and it seems ironic that, uh, just a few weeks ago I was asking, does anybody know anybody who has a great education that got into sales? And I'm finding a lot of them. It kind of, uh, surprises me, but there also seems to be a similar pattern. Either they are money motivated or sales offers them, uh, the ability to work from different locations. Or they happen to like competing, like working with other people, uh, like developing salespeople. Today's guest hits on a bunch of different notes, uh, and something that I haven't really talked that much about in the podcast. There's a lot of people in the courses from the UK. And when I do the 15-minute calls with them, they're all like, will this work in the UK? And I'm like, well, what makes you think it won't work in the— well, people are different here. And I personally have not sold, uh, in Europe directly. I've worked with companies, I've trained companies there, and everyone kind of finds this— I don't want to say excuse, but reason that their territory and their People who I call rascals are different than everyone else's. And there are nuances. And I've covered pretty much most of North America through my career— Canada, the West Coast, East Coast, Southeast— and there are differences. And anyone who's gone from Manhattan to Atlanta knows this. Or has worked with somebody who worked in those territories.

There are—

there's paces, there's, um, you know, protocols a little bit different. But at the end of the day, we're all people, we're all mammals. Our brains surprisingly have not evolved fast enough to deal with strangers. See, If we start thinking about the brain that we really harbor, not the prefrontal cortex, the analytical brain, because that's 1/10 of what's really going on in our operating system in our head. The 90% is a couple hundred thousand years old. And it doesn't really or hasn't really evolved much since then. Our prefrontal cortex cortex has, but how we, we naturally react and we feel kind of overwhelms and hijacks that. But that's a different topic. Let's get into this interview. I'll sum it up at the end. And this great guest has a fantastic background, a fantastic attitude. He's, uh, moved back and forth from the UK to the US and is really kind of a great sales leader that we'd like to work with, and we go through his journey to become that. And I think we all can grasp something out of this. Let's get into it. And if you're interested in the courses, listen to the end. I'll give everybody an update. Here we go. Hey, John, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Yeah, thank you. Yeah, it's great to be here. So some background on me, you know, I've got a, uh, a nonlinear path in, in the world of sales and sales leadership. So You know, I actually started out my career as starting a real estate brokerage with the guy who was my boxing coach in college. So he recruited me to do that. Yeah, yeah. So, so not, not something you plan for necessarily. And then, and then from there, I was actually a teacher and a coach for, for 4 years, which really has been an asset to me as I've, as I've progressed through my sales career and then now into sales leadership. For the obvious reasons, right? Teaching and coaching is, is really helpful, uh, both in, in sales and in the, the individual contributor role. That's essentially what we're trying to do with our clients is teach them and coach them and lead them. And, and then of course, moving into sales leadership, the parallels are obvious. And so then I started with CareerBuilder, was with them for a time. Uh, we— I was with a company called Fuse and had a, had a great experience there with some, some leaders that I still hold near and dear. And then went on to Emsi where I built and scaled a team, really helped them with their go-to-market strategy and helped them add quite a bit of enterprise value to that organization. And now I'm doing the same thing with a company called Maestro, building the team, leading the team, and designing that go-to-market strategy. So starting the project over again.

And what motivated you to get into leadership? Was it that coaching, that developing other people, or?

Yeah. Yeah, that's a, that's a, that's a strong passion of mine and, and something that I see, you know, is there's, there's definitely a need for, for great leaders in the industry today. And so, you know, when I left Fuse, I had 2 different opportunities, very different types. One was to go work with a, with a great company, a very reputable company, or take the, take the bet, kind of take the bet on myself and see if I, see if I could put my money where my mouth is, right? Am I the leader that I think I can be? Can I scale and grow a team? And that's what I wanted to do, right? It could have ended in failure, could have blown up in my face, but I figured, you know, like, let's take the chance and let's go. And so what was motivating me to do that was seeing, you know, some of the great leaders and what they were able to accomplish with their team and how hard people would work even under very difficult, trying circumstances for terrible leaders, for terrible managers. And so seeing the results that even they were getting and thinking, man, how much better could this— like, sales is hard enough as it is, but how much better could it be in an environment that is designed the right way? Right. And so that's really what I was passionate about.

And how do you view sales leadership today? As far as— I'm not sure how much visibility you have into it. You know, I get the rep's perspective a lot and I get a lot of leadership perspectives. As well. It's a tough job.

It is a tough job. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Being a leader, it's a, it's a tough job because there's— to function as a true executive, you're, you're there to represent the business. You're there to do what's right for the business. And what's right for the business is bringing in the right people, motivating the right people, and doing that. And so moving from a rep to a frontline manager role to a second-line manager role and beyond, There is a change there. The frontline manager role, it's obvious what you should be doing, right? You should be coaching and motivating your team. You should be in it with them. You should have your hands in the weeds and be in the fight. And that is even a point of departure, right? So when you ask about what is the state of sales leadership today, there's even many frontline managers that don't understand that. I like, you know, you're here to work with your team. You are responsible for your team, you know, all the deals. You got to be in those details and I hear from the reps too, right? Like that, that's not happening, right? Like this person isn't present. This person isn't focused on what's important to me. And on that frontline leader role and other sales leadership roles as well, it definitely applies elsewhere. You know, how are we helping them with the soft skills? All these reps, they want to be here, right? They have a vision for themselves. They have a dream for themselves. And people are fundamentally, you know, feeling creatures that think. Right. And so just—

Hopefully.

Yes, you know, and I think that that's a— there's people that don't understand that, right, where we look at like the science-based sales idea or, you know, can we just pull the metrics, can we look at the dashboards and that type of thing. And that trickles down to the types of the way we treat people and the types of behaviors that we expect from our reps, which I think are counterintuitive to the way both our reps make decisions, the way we make decisions, and the way our clients make decisions, right? And so I believe that people make decisions with emotion first and then justify with logic later on, right? But is that represented in our sales process or our organizational design? You know, not— yeah, exactly.

Well, that's it. I think a lot of, you know, it starts really at the board and the executive level. They look at the unicorns, right? They already have product-market fit. They already got momentum. They've got pull.

Right.

That doesn't mean you do.

That's right. Yeah, that's right.

Trying to take their playbook and just implement it. And then if it doesn't work, blame the people.

Right. Yeah.

Because I had a great leader told me, it's either the aquarium or the fish.

Right.

If the fish keep dying, it might be the aquarium.

Yeah, they might be swimming in toxic water. Right. And that's where you get these cultures that You know, how does a culture go toxic, right? It's like, where does that breakdown of trust happen, right? Were we ever on the same team, right?

Yeah.

And that trust is so fundamental to everything that we do because primarily this is an industry that's fully communication-based, right? Like, we are here to communicate. The better we can do at that, the better those soft skills that we can develop with communication, And then where does the confidence in the communication come from? That comes from trust.

Yeah.

So trust that, that, you know, am I trying to do this to please my leader or am I trying to do this because it's the right thing and I'm well trained and I'm well enabled? And if there is that breakdown of trust, that's where you see that those, those failures of communication, both internally within the organization, you know, what are my expectations? What does success look like? What am I trying to achieve? And then with the client, that's when you start to get commission breath. Because now it's about desperation. Now it's about serving the process or serving the manager rather than trying to design and implement and execute. What does the ideal customer journey look like? What's best for these people? Are we leading them? Are we helping them? Are we giving to them? And that's when that happens, you know, that's when I start getting emails from clients, you know, unsolicited saying, wow, it was refreshing working with this rep. Or even if we— if a deal doesn't progress forward, they say, thank you for running the process the way you did. Like, when you're at that trade show next time, look me up, right? Like, I'll be there for you, right? And which there are comments that we've gotten on the phone and emails that we've received. And so that's, that's kind of playing the long game, right? And that's where if we can design that process where it feels like a team, then we're going to have a lot better behaviors all the way around. Right. But that certainly starts from the top. It has to start from the leadership.

And have you been in an environment where it wasn't there at the top?

Yeah, I think that that's probably more common than not. And it's hard. Right. And I sympathize with leaders from the fact that it is hard. But if you want that responsibility, you've got to be ready to deliver also. Right. Otherwise, just go, go sell. Right. Find another leader that you want to work for, but don't take that responsibility yourself. Because it is, it's a lonely job, you know, you're, it's a stressful job. It's, there's a lot of anxiety and pressure. And so that requires a whole new level of self-discipline and emotional control that maybe people are not prepared for. Yeah, right. Because you got to be that steady rock for your team, and also project that confidence back to your, your, the board and the CEO and so forth.

And is that what you looked for when you were Making a shift?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, I think that it's, it's important for within the interview process, within the evaluation process, is this company the right fit for me? Because we're not all going to be Snowflakes, right? Meaning the company Snowflake, right? We're not all going to have the best IPO ever, get $500 million in funding and, and all that, nor is that even desirable, right? Like, that, that does not mean a company is successful. So looking at the fundamentals, right? Like, what does the leadership layer look for? And I think that it's an important takeaway for both leaders and reps. When you're interviewing for a job, it may be a great job, but to evaluate, is this a good job for me? And to really be clear in the interview process, here's who I am, and this is what I bring to the table. This is, this is my point of view on how sales should be run. And that's how you avoid the disasters, or at least it helps you avoid the disasters. When you get to the organization, you think, oh, this wasn't for me. The grass wasn't greener.

And what were the signs where it wasn't for you? Do you have particular questions around expectations and what they like and your predecessor?

Yeah. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Expectations. You know, why, why wouldn't it work out? You know, if this was going to go poorly, why would that go poorly?

Right?

If we can run a good sales process, we should be able to run a good interview process too. Right? Like, do the discovery. Right? Figure it out. Like, why would it work or not work? You know, and so thinking through those angles, you know, how do we handle conflict here? You know, is this a collaborative environment or is this more of a dictatorial environment? Right? where we need to follow, who's really making, and then digging into the second and third layer of that, you know, let's talk about a time where we had to resolve a conflict. And then I would, I would definitely talk to the peers to talk to, talk to other people in that organization, you know, how has it gone in this circumstance? So that due diligence is important.

And what are the red flags that you look for? Because it all sounds good, at least at the first time, maybe even the second time.

Yeah, yeah, the red flags. So I would say, you know, that's, that's where the particular criteria that are important to the individual, you know, why, why does the individual want this job? Why is that an important step in your career? And thinking through, you know, what people do you want to be working with and for, you know, are they going to mentor you? Are they going to help you take that next step? So once you have that first, you know, kind of your own SWOT analysis, right? And figure out what, what is it that I need at this point in my career. And that could be difficult to, to define, and so that's where reaching out to others in your network who've maybe been a couple steps ahead of you is important to get their perspective. So once you have that, then determining, you know, does this, does this organization match up? And then when you're talking about red flags, you know, if work-life balance, for instance, is really important to you, which is a difficult thing to ask in an interview, you know, how do you say, how is your work-life balance here, without seeming like— I'm not a hard worker, right? Like something wrong with my work ethic. So you ask other, other things, you know, you ask your hiring manager or your CEO, what do you like to do after work? What do your weekends look like?

Right?

Like, it's a course of conversation type question, or you can work it in in that way. And if they say, you know, I like to work, then guess what you're going to be doing? You know?

Well, yeah. Yeah, it's hard to imagine taking that type of role with work-life balance being a priority. Well, yeah, how about like expectations of growth and stuff? Because I mean, you quickly look at last year's number, sure, you know, and if it's 3x, right, is that realistic? I don't know.

Right, right.

But you own it.

That's right. That's right. And that's where it gets back to the fundamentals, right? We're gonna say, if we're gonna triple revenue, what's our plan to triple leads? You know, because, because just throwing more reps at it, you know, just thinking of that pure capacity model, is that, is that going to end in success? Like, well, no, not if they have nothing to sell to.

Right?

Like, that'll, that'll be slow and frustrating.

Because that interview process turns almost into consulting in a lot of ways. You know, because, oh, they just got a new CMO. Okay, that's 6 to 9 months of ramp.

Right?

Just got a round. Now they have to earn the round.

That's right. That's right.

And you got hiring that takes time.

That's right.

Is the product there? And, you know, and they look at that, that sales leader as a magician.

That's right.

They don't want an administrator.

That's right.

Or a magician.

Yeah, I was talking to a leader in my network that I respect a ton. And he's, he's about to take another role, left his— left the company that he was with after going in the year and 3 months that he was there, you know, trying to take them from very low revenue, you know, single digits, and then managing those expectations. And it's, you know, yeah, sales is a department. It is not, as you said, it's not a magic show.

Right.

Where it's, hey, like, we function and we can function very well, but it is not divorced from the rest of the organization, right? Like the inner workings of the organization. So digging into those fundamentals, what is the plan to double or triple leads? What does that budget look like? How do we know that that's gonna work? Right? The same types of penetrating questions that you would need to ask to determine, like, is this deal a real deal? To find out, is this job a real job? Can we get there? And if we can't get there, the time to bring that up is, hey, like, I think I can take you here based on— this is what the business is telling me, right? You'd be objective. This is what your data is telling me. It's not my belief. It's what the data shows. So how are we going to change that data?

Yeah. And how about as far as the leader, do you look to work— because typically founders are either engineers, and then the board brings somebody in. And it's the same thing where it's like they bring in somebody from a unicorn, or it was at a different role within the unicorn, and they think, The bat boy on the Yankees is better than the bat boy on the Pirates.

That's right.

Yeah. Every nut and bolt on the rocket still gets to the moon, right?

That's right. Yeah. There's a, you know, I've seen that, I've seen that work poorly for some organizations, you know, talking to, talking to founders or CEOs or people that I've, you know, through the, through the years as I've evaluated jobs and looked at them and why didn't it work out with this person? I see he or she was there for only a year. What happened? And, you know, yeah, we hired from Salesforce, but we're a $19 million company and, you know, just, it didn't work. Right. And I'm thinking, yeah, you know, it probably— not to say that nobody from Salesforce could jump into that role, but have they been trained for that? Do they have that expectation? Are they ready to pull out their knife? And, you know, just go full Rambo and figure it out, you know, solve that riddle. Such a different problem, such a different puzzle than you would see at a different type of organization.

And what do you see as your strongest part? Is it hiring? Is it building a team? Is it executing with an existing team?

Yeah, I think the— yeah, fundamentally the VP sales role, you got to be great at recruiting, you got to be great at retaining talent, and then you got to hit those revenue targets. And if you hit the first 2, Then the third one becomes very, very possible, right? If all else is working within the business. And so those are, those are the— there's a lot that goes into those skills, of course, each one of those categories. But yeah, it, you know, it starts and ends with the people. You know, as we just started this conversation talking about culture and avoiding a toxic one, to build a great culture. That's why you see the best leaders, when they move, people move with them, right? People are interested.

That's the test.

where they go. And, you know, starting a relationship expecting loyalty is the wrong way, but starting that expecting to generate trust then breeds that loyalty. And so that starts with, you know, that recruiting layer, which is, you know, when I was giving those questions, you know, how are you going to ask these things through the interview process, right? And then vice versa with the VP of sales, you know, I want to know how intellectually curious is somebody, you know, how not just scrappy are they, but scrappy with intentionality. It's not scrappy because they're desperate, but scrappy because they're gonna— the job is to get the job done and they want that. And so evaluating that talent is a skill worth developing and something that I've worked hard to do and worked with others, worked with other leaders to get that mentorship to do it. And then retaining that talent, that's about who you are as an individual. Do they believe you have their back? And then do I believe that they have mine? And then revenue, right? Are we in the fight together, right? Am I helping them develop their skills? Does a pipeline review mean something? Does it mean progress, or does a pipeline review mean I have to repeat all this stuff that I already know?

Is it just waterboarding?

It's just waterboarding. Yeah. Is it a gotcha session or is it productive? Do I leave the call as a rep feeling feeling like, wow, I learned something, you know, like, now I know how to go execute. And, and all those things, it takes a tremendous amount of work. You're right. Like, if you're looking for an 8 to 5 job, like the VP of Sales role is not for you. Because all those things take a lot of extra effort.

Right? Yeah. But it's hard to take time away from selling to recruit.

Right.

And, you know, if the numbers made, almost everything is forgivable. But when it isn't, then almost nothing's forgivable.

That's right, exactly.

And what do you look for in reps?

Yeah, the best reps that I've seen, you know, they always do the extra, right? And the extra means a lot of different things. You know, they know the product better than anybody else on the team. They know the why behind the product better than anybody else. Here's why this feature was built. Here's the customer we did this for. Here was the result that that customer got. they, they do the extra through the interview process, right? They give you things that you didn't ask for, but that are meaningful in the interview, right? They didn't just show up, right? I'm looking for leaders, you know, I'm looking for people who know how to lead. So, you know, great tips that I got, um, and it's good for your listeners is, you know, when you, when you come in, I can— I've experienced this in the interview. When I, when I started an interview, And that rep has a plan for me straight out of the gate where I don't have to initiate the call, initiate the conversation. They say, hey, this is— it's great to meet you. I'm so excited about this. Is it a good idea for me to give you a 90-second overview of myself?

Right?

And they take charge of that conversation straight away because that's what I'm looking for. Because when a client comes to a call, they're just ready. They're ready to hear what you got. They booked a call with you. They're ready. They're not coming with an agenda. They're coming expecting to have the plan, right? And so if somebody comes to me and they have the plan for the interview, and we might change the plan, but if they have the plan for the interview or they send me an agenda ahead of time to say, hey, here's what I was thinking about, here's some preparation I did, and here's, here's an agenda, here's a suggested agenda for our call today, how impressive is that, right? Because you know that they're going to execute in the same way with clients. And so I'm looking for that. I'm looking to see, you know, what are the last 3 books that you read lately? You know, and what did you take away from those? And of course, we'll get into, you know, so I start interviews with the soft skills, the conversation, want to be comfortable. I want them to open up so I can get a sense of what's at the core. And then if that looks good, then we'll go into the sales skills and all that stuff next.

And have you found any false positives before? Were you like, I'm kind of coming to the conclusion, if there isn't a chip on someone's shoulder, Right. Something that keeps them up, that really bugs them. Like Lance Armstrong said, you gotta get your hate on.

That's right.

You know, whatever you think about him, I wouldn't want to compete against the guy.

Right.

And he would just talk about these people, come on, get your hate on.

Right.

It was like his idea of losing was so inconceivable.

Right.

And I think reps who don't have that emotional connection to winning or losing, right?

Yeah, yeah, that's a— I made a post about a year ago about that on LinkedIn, and it got 250,000 views. It went crazy. It was on that same topic. So I just actually wrapped up an interview and fired this out there, and I asked the rep, you know, I said, you Do you love to win more than you hate to lose, or do you hate to lose more than you love to win? And I don't necessarily make a decision based on the answer to that question, but I want to hear the answer and then hear their reasoning behind it. Yeah.

Right.

You know, why that? You know, and then poke into that a little bit more, get a level or 2 down. Because I would answer that question, yeah, I hate to lose, you know, way more than I— you know, I love to win. Obviously everybody loves to win, but Losing is not— and we're gonna lose, right? 7 out of 10 deals, we know, like, on average. So we're gonna lose. But what, what does that mean to you personally, right? And so, so I agree with you, like, what is driving and what is motivating this person? What is going to keep them going? You know, if I look back on my career and think of all the, you know, 10 PM sessions that I had, you know, in my office by myself preparing something for the next day, your manager is not going to ask you to do that.

Right.

Right? Like, or shouldn't, right? Shouldn't have to, maybe. But you're either going to do it or not, right? We can't track that.

Right. And without it, you're kind of just processing stuff.

Right.

And I had an Se once who said, you think I should get into sales? I go, don't. Because why not? It's like, you're too comfortable if we lose.

Right?

You know, and he goes, what, you just freak out? You just go crazy. And you just And I go, well, if I didn't, I wouldn't win.

Right.

You know, and I go, and he was just too even-keeled.

Right, right.

Great Se, bad sales rep. Right.

That's right. That's right. Yeah, you— it's a, it's a, it's a performance-driven industry, right? And it's gonna be, it's gonna be stressful either way. Right. And do you want that or not? Right. Are you willing to get yourself out on the field or not? Because there are easier ways to make money.

A lot easier.

You won't make as much.

As much, but—

But you can be happy making less, right? Like, it's okay. Like, so what do you want to prioritize? And that's what I mean, that SWOT analysis, like, where is this going towards? And then discovering that through the interview process, discovering that in that relational, those conversations between the two, like, And that's always what I'm trying to discern, like, why? Why do this, right? Of all the options that you have or could have, why this? Because you could take a change, you could do something else, right? You could still make fine money, you know, managing accounts. You could be an AM, you know, CS, right?

Yeah.

You could do it at a high level, especially with your understanding of sales and revenue. So why put yourself through this? And the The answer to that, I had a rep give me a great answer one time. He laid out his 4-year plan for me and said, you know, by the time I'm here, this is what I want to have accomplished and this is the money that I want to have made. And that just casting that vision to me, I was like, yeah, that makes sense to me. And now I understand what failure means to you. You know, failure means you won't get that. And I did hire him and he was my best rep and then went on to another company and he's their best rep too.

And what advice would you have for either a first-time manager or somebody who wants to get into leadership?

Yeah, I would say don't do it because you think it means you don't have to prospect anymore, right? Don't do it because, you know, you, you don't like sending cold emails or, you know, sick of rejection. Yeah, because it's like, well, this— his job looks better than mine, or her job looks better, right? Like, that's not the reason to do it. And that's, that's probably where the idea starts for a lot of people. It's like, this, this looks like an easier job because once you do that, you're— when you move into leadership, your time is no longer your own, right?

Yeah.

And you're being a rep can sometimes look very comfortable once you're in a leadership position because you can dictate your schedule, you can move it around. Sometimes you can make more, right? You know, especially if you're good at what you do, you can make a lot more. And you can have that, that individual— your performance is only your own right now. As a leader, things can be very good, but it's only because you're really good. Right. And so do you want that extra pressure? Do you want to take that bet on yourself that, yes, I can, I can develop and design this team, motivate and influence this team. And also do the hard things, right, which is, which is again represent the business. And you might or will, you absolutely will at some point have to fire somebody. So can you, can you do that? Is that something that you're, that you're willing to do and bear the consequences of that? Is the team going to see that as a net positive? So the advice to people who want to get into a leadership role, I would say, you know, make sure that you understand what a leadership role represents. and what it, what it means by talking to other leaders.

Yeah.

You know, why, why should I do this? And specifically the size and the type of company that you're at, because that is the other difference, right? It can be a very different role from one company to the next. And when you're designing your career path, you know, I would look at who is your— just like as a sales rep, who is your boss going to be? And do you want to be like that person? Right, because they will be dictating what that looks like to you. They will either mentor you or not. And so how does that look for you?

Yeah, what a lot of people forget is when you then look for the next job, you know, there's 10 times as many rep jobs as there are leadership jobs.

That's exactly true. Yes, that's right. That's right.

A lot of people want to be leaders internally.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And reputations, reputations are, you know, the world gets smaller the longer you progress in your career. And so, you know, you really do want to evaluate that. And that's, that's why I would say encourage those conversations with, you know, with a director or with a VP of sales and say, like, what do you do? Like, how do you spend your time? And what are you responsible for? Not just what I see, but what is it that you're doing? What is it that you don't like about the role? What is it that you do like about the role? Because everybody's got that, right? Everybody's got things that they don't— the CEO has that, right? Like, You know, he or she doesn't love everything about what they do, but they have to do it. And the buck stops there. And so those would be some penetrating questions that I would ask and then figure out, is that a fit for you? And is this the right time in your career to do that?

Oh, hey, John, I really appreciate your time today. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

Yeah, yeah, I'm on, I'm on LinkedIn, active there. And so, so connect with me and would love to start the conversation with you.

What seems to keep coming up over and over again with the people who don't seem to be organically natural salespeople is that they get turned on by adventure. And we've heard this. I interviewed a guy last year who took the junior year abroad, loved to travel, loved to be in new cultures. And this outgoingness, this extrovertedness helps out a lot. Now, I personally can't imagine traveling to another country and then selling there. Or maybe I can. But some of that— some of us get turned on by that. Some of us get turned off by it. I think what we all need to do is find the thing that does excite us, the thing that does get us up in the morning, the thing that naturally we have a passion for and build off of it and connect up the things that we don't like to do as a way of getting those things instead of just avoiding the things that we don't like to do. Because in sales, there's always going to be things that we don't like to do. Some people don't like prospecting. Some people don't like cold outreach. Uh, it's hard. I mean, I've never been a fan of it, but you have to do— you have to connect with people. There's smarter ways of doing it. Start the Conversation, Get the Meeting was created out of that need. Uh, cold calling was no longer working for me. Cold emailing, uh, was not working for me. You kind of exhaust your network of referrals. So what do you do then? How do you do it? So it's both effective and enjoyable. That's the magic circle, because if you enjoy doing it, you will do it. If you don't, you'll find a way not to do it. And how is the— how are those inbound leads looking? Are they really hot? What I'm hearing today is that the inbound stuff isn't. It's people looking for the free trinket, the ebook, whatever it is, but not your product and not to talk with a salesperson. So how do you develop that skill? You first have to understand what the other person is thinking at the other end. And instead of cramming it, handling the objections, it's building rapport with them. But how do you do that in a systematic way? That's why I started the course. Everybody else comes up with gimmicks or pitches, and, you know, that it works for a short period of time and then it wears off very quickly. And then you get stuck in the handling of objections. And why are you handling an objection? I mean, a real objection, like, I'm not interested, I'm busy, Give me a call in 6 months. You know, those are signals that you're moving too fast, that you're doing the wrong thing. So handling it, is that the right thing to do, or is it smarter to move at the right pace? Now, if somebody's not interested, how do you know it's not interest or that you just pushed? Why not come up with ways of connecting with other people and building a conversation with them? That, you know, any art can be broken down into tiny little pieces that anyone can learn. And that's what the course is about. And it doesn't matter where you're from or who you're selling to. It may vary a little, but there's still a mammal at the other end of that email, phone. Or social connection. And how you build up that relationship matters because you can either sit in the us versus them category and try and become good at objection handling. Now, that's been around, uh, since Moses wore short pants. Clearly it doesn't work. If it worked, we would be able to do it. What does work and what has always worked is building rapport with people. People buy from people they know, like, and trust. No sales expert will argue with that. The question is, how do you become known, liked, and trusted in a systematic, scalable way? It's not personalization. It's not relevance. They're ingredients in the muffin. of rapport, but they are not the process of doing it. And listening to failed SDRs is not the solution. They failed because they were not good. What you want to do is learn what does work and what is scalable. That's what Start the Conversation, Get the Meetings all about. Now, let's face it, if you had a calendar full of great conversations, Those turn into deals. Not all, but some. Enough to crush your number. And that's why we're in sales. We're in sales to make money. We're in sales to be successful. If you just wanted to be busy, you can go work in marketing. Go work in customer support. There's plenty of openings. Why are you not there? Because you want control over your income. You want to be successful, and to do that, you want to learn. Now, you— oh, you have to invest time and money? Sorry. See, you're already investing time and money in what doesn't work. Your time is very valuable. It's $50 an hour if you make $100K a year. $200K, $100. $300K, $150. You're investing that time, or should I say wasting it, Why not invest it wisely and become great at a skill? How do you become great at any skill? You see what great looks like. You try it. You get feedback. You become better. It is a performance. Like any sport, any performance art, singing, dancing, playing any instrument, cooking, anything that you've tried in life, How good are you at the first try? Now, does that mean you're a bad person? No, it means you're a good person for trying. And then you become better and better and better. And do you ever become perfect? No. That's why practice makes perfect is really not a great saying because in a performance you're never perfect. Is there a perfect Pitch, hit. It's either effective or not. See, the crazy part of sales is that nothing works 100% of the time and everything works about 1% of the time. So we get these both false positive and false negatives that muck with our brain. We need to come up with core principles of selling and and build off of them so that even if they fail or don't work as effectively, we know that the principle is still right. We know that know, like, and trust is core principles of selling. Does it work 100% of the time? No. We also know that doing stupid things faster, or what I called domoredumbthingsfaster.com, Does work 1% of the time. Cold calling works 1% of the time. Does that mean you should do it? It's up to you. Why not work a smarter way? Build off of core principles, first principles of selling, and become great at them. That way you at least have confidence that you're building your house of sales on a solid foundation. So, so what does it come down to? You got to do it. You got to invest a little bit of time and money. It appears scary at first, but once you start, it's like a snowball compounds. Instead of this circadian getting up every morning, dreading going to your desk, knowing that you got a, you know, email box full of unsubscribes, why not go in and have great conversations? Doesn't that feel good? Crush your number. Go to b2brevenue.com. If the times are full, which I think they are right now, uh, just look at the frequently asked questions video. If you still have questions after that, which 99% of the people don't, they still just want to talk. I get that, but that time's money and it's limited. So Send me questions. I'd be happy to reply via email. But it requires that you form it into a question. A good question is— well, a bad question is, which course is best for me? Well, if you can't tell that, how can I? The question is, is your pipeline full? Do you have deals that aren't closing? That's winning the complex sale. If you don't have a full pipeline, Start the Conversation, Get the Meeting is the right course. If you want to get into sales and you've never been in sales, the BDR Grad School is the right course for you. I throw in The Questions That Sell if you buy either Start the Conversation, Get the Meeting, or Winning the Complex Sale. So just hit me up once you join and I'll get you the coupon code for that. If you bring a friend, let me know. I do something special for people that bring friends into the course. I don't want to announce it here because I don't know how long I'll offer this. And if somebody's listening to this 3 years from now, I don't want to have to remember it. So just hit me up if you're bringing a friend into the course and I'll treat you well. And I'd really appreciate anybody who sees my content on LinkedIn to give it a little like, a little comment, a little share. Tell a friend about the podcast. That's really what I— the only thing I really ask that you do. Don't really need reviews, got tons of reviews up there, but if you want, you can post one. There's a couple of other podcasts you want to check out: The Sales Questions, Brutally Honest Answers. If you want to get into leadership, uh, the B2B Revenue Leadership Show, as well as The Sales Leadership Show. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening.