HOW TO WIN IN THE MOST DIFFICULT OF SALES

Today we've got a fun one for you. In sales, what we're trying to do, you know, people talk about listening and discovery, but I think it's more characteristic of what I'm calling sales therapy, meaning that we make the mistake of assuming that the client knows what they really, really, really want and why they want it and why they want it different than something else. But isn't it more like therapy where they have some kind of problem, they want to solve something, they want to progress to someplace, and they, they may think they know how, uh, but they may not? It's a lot like when people go to therapy. Hey, they feel depressed, they feel anxious, they're not getting along, they're not satisfied in a way. But, you know, it's not a quick and easy answer. There's usually something in the way, some historic thing, some misperception, uh, some new way of looking at it. Sounds like sales therapy, doesn't it? Well, today's guest, we're kind of going to talk about that in general and in specifics about how he does it. And his approach is, uh, Authentic, uses a little bit of humor, connects with the other person, but doesn't forget what the objective is. The objective is to both solve a customer's problem and work with the customers that want to solve a problem, can solve a problem, and will solve a problem, and not just talk with people. I think too often in sales, we misread The willingness to talk as a buying signal. It might be just a lonely signal. And at the very end of the interview, he has a trick. I don't know if it's a trick or an approach to build rapport that I think you'll get a kick out of. At any rate, you're going to enjoy the interview. Also listen to the very end when we talk about the complex sale and how He could solve it and you could solve it, but you have to take a step. You have to make a little bit of investment of time to figure that out. Let's get into the interview. I'll sum it up at the end. Hey, Jeff, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Brian, super excited to be here. I can't even wait for you to finish. I know how the interview starts because I've seen so many of your things. And listen, like, Nobody cares about my background. What's relevant here is that I'm a big fan of your work and everything you're doing out there, and I just want to say thank you from the community. You have helped me definitely become, well, at least the guy in the office who's annoying everybody with like the videos sharing. Look, smart man, magic box, knows better way. We should probably look into this and do that. But we've all really enjoyed, enjoyed your stuff. But You know, just, just to kind of set for the audience, like, I do handle managed services sales for SoftChoice. I am a— what you might think of as an overlay, I think of as like a Sherpa or something, but I'm helping to support about 100 account executives, solution architects, hybrid sellers, and recognizing how we can add value to customers with their IT operations, broadly speaking.

It's not an easy sale, is it?

Generally the worst, the hardest. It takes an immense amount of trust. It is an insanely complex sale. The payoff can be large and not just in terms of the sale, but really the tail it creates with the relationship with the customer. So it is, as I refer to it, like the sort of peak or the top of the pyramid in terms of the customer relationship. But man, it is, it can be You know, it can be a struggle getting there, getting the signatures.

And what has made you good at it?

Well, I don't know. I'm still finding that out.

That's my job. I'm trying to dig it out of you.

Yeah. Listen, I mean, I, it is, I think my superpower to the extent that I have any talent whatsoever is, is taking very complex topics and making them simple. And that pertains to technology, but it also pertains, I've found, to the relationship between parties in a complex sale, right? And so I think being direct and concise goes a long way.

Which is usually the opposite as most people in that space, right?

It's amazing, Brian, like, oh, like—

It's verbose and indirect.

Let me make this as complicated and convoluted as I can. And I think that, listen, there's a lot of, I don't want to say ego, but like people are getting a little bit of significance in their own mind when they tend to go on like that. But with the TikToks and the Twitter, like people's attention spans are minuscule. So like—

Hey.

I'm a New Yorker, you know what I'm saying? And like, I used to serve the legal industry and the hedge fund industry. And like, those people do not have a lot of time to listen to the thing, right? It's like, get it in there. And so I think people have appreciated that, that I get to the point very quickly, very directly. And sure, there's helpful context, but that we will get to that. So like, bottom line up front, you know, hit it hard.

Yeah. And I think a lot of people want to share All of that. And they think it's a differentiator, which it can be if the other person cares.

Which they don't. Let's be real. Right. Um, you know, yeah, you're right. Like if, if they're sort of bought in or, or if you're really good at it, but frankly, like if you, if you find yourself talking for any length of period, not answering a question or going on about your own thing, You're on the wrong track, right? Like, rest assured, rest assured. And so, you know, I cover a lot of these reps that I'm supporting are younger, they're starting their careers. There's nerves, you know, this sales, I know you're keen to say, is a performance. And, and when they're out there performing, you know, it's like nervous chatter, right?

Performing.

It's like, just reel it in, you know what I mean? Be careful. But, um, you know, so I, I see that a lot. I see that a lot. And I think like, here's my challenge to the reps watching. Um, really, I think this could go across any talking performance profession. I say to folks, just make it fit in a tweet. If you can get it into 140 characters, that's the juice.

Yeah.

And until you get it down to that, It's too much.

Everyone likes to be verbose.

Well, talking.

Yeah, it's like we're in that texting, tweeting, TikTok world today that, you know, because I upload my stuff to TikTok and it's like, I only got a minute? I thought, I thought a minute and a half was tight.

It's funny, right? I mean, and when you talk to When you talk to the kids, I mean, and, you know, they, they can't comprehend watching anything for like 5 minutes.

Godfather?

Like 3 hours.

That's binge watching.

That's funny. I have young kids and like, I wanted more than anything to share the experiences, some old movies, Star Wars, you know, so they're like, Dad, you're killing me with this. Like, can I just go back to YouTube and like, you know, get my 5-minute dopamine fix?

But anyway, and what do you see most, other than talking too much, what do you see most of the, either the reps you work with, compete against, or in general out there doing wrong?

Um, you know, I think like there is a, uh, it's natural to see the benefit for us. Like that's the focus. That's why we're here. I get it. We get it. And it's not going to be rocket science or a breaking newsflash to say, listen, you've really got to think about your customer and, and the benefit to them. And it's so fundamental. And I wish that I had something more super deep to share, but like, but it is, you know, a relentless focus on the fundamentals, like just taking your customer's perspective and thinking through how they perceive value. Man, I'll tell you, it— well, listen, we all have to get better forever at that skill. But like, that is sort of the one thing that I, that I, I find myself wishing folks would think even more deeply about.

Because your background, operations, all over.

Yeah.

Well, you've had that, that perspective. That a lot of people that you work with haven't.

It is interesting. I've always been very service-oriented, you know, I mean, and it started waiting tables and bartending in college, right? And stuff like that. And it's really satisfying to serve people and to, you know, to help them out. And that carried on for me through like, you know, being in IT and solving technical challenges, like very satisfying. It continued into a, you know, an entrepreneur. I was a CEO for 7 years. And like, and that's really where I discovered sales, right? It's the next natural evolution in serving your constituency or your customers and helping solve a problem really in this new way. And so I probably, like a lot of people, thought, you know, had that feeling of sales and like convincing people is weird. And like, you know, it was, but like, it very organically occurred to me is like, especially running your own business, right? Where it was like, hey, look, I'm solving this IT challenge, but now I need to connect the dots for them and I need to correct their mistaken perceptions a lot of times and help them see a better way. And I love it. And so I am a former entrepreneur. I work for a larger company now, but I get to focus on the stuff that I love, right? And that I hope that that energy comes through when I connect with customers. And that's another thing that's made me successful.

Yeah. And it seems like a lot of people come out of that service industry or the hospitality space.

Yeah. Yeah. I've heard a few of your interviews. Yeah. Say that too. I mean, like, look, when you're a kid or a young person getting started, like it's a good way to make money and It's, it's what's really cool is that those lessons can continue to serve you and just about whatever you do and in sales in particular.

Right.

So. Right.

Because if you don't do that, how do you learn it?

Yeah.

College doesn't teach this.

No, that's what's so funny, right? There really is no course in it per se. And, and frankly, even if somebody sat you down and gave you a lecture, you know.

No, you have to do it night after night. You have to like get the zero tip or the The walkout or the something that was like, what did I do? Yeah, understand that.

Exactly.

And waiting an hour for your food is not going to help.

I'll tell you, I had a really fun— you know what, I just thought of this. So I've been thinking about this interview for 3 days. And this one story just, just occurred to me right now. I had like the worst summer job ever, Brian, you're actually gonna love this. One summer, I think I responded to like a newspaper ad. And I was literally going door to door selling like pagers. Right? This had to be like '97. I mean, I was, I couldn't have been—

At peak pager.

Yeah, yeah. Basically peak pager. I couldn't have been 19. And I was never an outgoing person. And a lot of my friends and coworkers are going to hear that and be like, are you kidding me? But like at the time, I was not sure of myself. And it really helped me get out of my comfort zone and learn to flex this muscle to connect with people, you know, very awkward, you know, sort of way. But we would go into bars in the middle of the day, we'd go any, you know, like grocery stores, like, and, and, yeah, like, you know, we tossed them the pager, you know, or whatever. I mean, it was, it was really, you know, my— I cut my teeth on that for one summer. Excuse me, trying to do door-to-door pager sales. And man, it was like—

Commission only, I assume?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think 100%. It was a total pyramid scheme, if I think back.

But like, Oh, I see. You get more and more of your buddies to—

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't like rope them in. But it was obviously a very formative experience in terms of just learning to connect with people and getting out of your shell and out of your comfort zone. But I was glad to be done with it. But it did help me, I think, years later, just be comfortable approaching people.

But why not stay in services or operations or leadership?

Yeah, I mean, it's— I mean, sales, it really became like my passion, right? I mean, I think that like, it is so challenging in this new stimulating way. And obviously, the satisfaction is immense when, when it comes together. Managed services is a devil of a problem. It's, it's very hard for both customers and service providers to really get their arms around. But like, if it were easy, it wouldn't be a problem. You know what I mean? And so What do you think?

Yeah, because I've got a lot of people in my courses that are managed services. So it's like, you know, a lot of people who do it, everyone's got some way of doing it already. Nobody's going from paper to computers anymore. They're already on computers. And, you know, you gotta start there. You gotta build, you gotta build trust, and it takes a long time.

Yeah, yeah. And I think like, the, the only way as a business, I mean, it makes sense is like, if you're serving the needs of the customer kind of up and down the stack, right? Like, it's got to be a part of the overall value your company brings. Because yeah, I mean, one sales cycle can take a year, you know, without, without problems. But there's lots of other ways to serve the company and make money kind of in the meantime. I mean, it all sort of feeds itself, but finding new ways to add value is the challenge in that industry since we're— it has become very competitive.

And where do you fit in the sales process? Sounds, you know, because overlay, some people may not understand what that is.

Sure, sure. Yeah, it's a great question. And we spend a lot of time like arguing about that, debating on where Jeff should come into that process. But like, look, it's like we— you have to recognize sort of the weather report, as I call it, in your account with your customer. You know, which way is the wind blowing? Is there new leadership? Do they have a strong case for change? I'm smiling because my— oh my God, my former, my former boss and mentor, like, you know, we would talk all the time about the case for change. But they're truly like, in order to for a company to make a shift of this magnitude, like there has to be some really strong prevailing winds and stuff going on inside of their company and their business. So we start by training the reps to really look for like the context and some of that, you know, things to listen for, things to look for, things to suggest, right. So we train by getting them to kind of recognize the opportunity. And then it's just high-level qualification, like Should you change? Is now the right time? Are we the right partner? Okay, like, let's just start there, you know what I mean?

It sounds like they pull you in when—

Um, basically when those questions have been answered, ideally, you know what I mean? Like, if we know that they can't afford the status quo, that's, that's a great indicator, but it's hard It can be hard to even answer that question, right? So, you know, reps have to go sometimes 2 or 3 levels deep with the customer, like, well, why is that? Tell me more, you know what I mean? And really understanding why, you know, that even the customer might have this very clear idea about, hey, we need managed services. Okay, but like, understand why, and that will shorten the sales cycle. And, you know, further qualify the deal. And so that's another thing going back to your earlier question that like, what do we see reps not do a lot of times. And it's just, it's just, it's the meta, right? It's like, there's one thing that the customer is saying to you out of their mouth. But the meta is like, what's going on underneath that? And if you can get folks to kind of stop and digest what the customer just said, and think about the underlying reasons in the context, you know, why is that really important to you, Mr. Customer kind of thing?

Like, yeah, I kind of call it sales therapy, because sometimes they don't even know.

Totally.

So you have to like, well, what's behind that? What happened before this?

And that's a great way to put it. Of course it is. Yeah. And it's hard. I mean, for new reps, like this was the other theme I wanted to touch on today, which was that like, you know, we were saying like sales is really just this other way of serving the customer. But, but the fun thing about sales is a bit of a tango, right? There's this like dance in that like, We can't purely be focused on serving the customer because we still need our needs serviced as well.

Yeah.

And that's the trick, right? So it's like, you know, so often they're just in a rush to, hey, the customer told me to fetch a rock. Where's the nearest rock? I got it.

We're not dogs.

Somebody get a rock. The customer said get a rock. Like, calm down. Like, let's, let's just figure out why.

Well, that's where that service— what they call an engineering service, not, you know, fetching, but solving, right? Diagnosing.

Exactly. Yeah, the therapy thing, right? Like, what is this? Okay, like, explain to me why the rock—

Yeah, you have to first admit that they don't know what they really want or why they want it or what they really think they want.

It's so true. Exactly right. And, you know, again, for junior reps, that it can be difficult. It can be difficult because again, they in their mind, they believe they are serving the customer. But really, they're just being busy, right? And so we have to like, we have to take a step back and I get caught up too. I mean, it's human nature to want to go solve the surface or superficial requests that's been sort of given to you, but you are, you are, you are in fact potentially wasting their time, but not by not really getting to the meat of the issue. And that's the biggest thing for both the rep and the customer is like, let's make sure this is a really good use of everyone's time because— Yeah.

Because the client is getting paid full. The rep is Probably only getting paid half until they close something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly right. So—

How about the hyper-competitiveness of it? How do you differentiate? How do you block out your competition?

It's a complex soup, man, I'll tell you, and it is hard. But, you know, because like, look, I mean, you have to— there's a whole half of that equation that's really outside of sales as purview, right? And that is like, how— what are we bringing to market? And we'll leave that for another interview. But in terms of like sales, like, you know, what's so funny is we've had a couple great opportunities cross our path recently. And I'd love to say that there's this magic sauce that, you know, we brought this amazing glittering insight that they were like, we just must work with you. But honestly, it has really just been diligent, hard work, managing expectations appropriately, staying in front of them and doing what we say we're going to do. It's integrity of action, right? Of literally just saying, this is what makes us different in these 4 areas. This is my aim personally, professionally, to do what I want to do for you and then doing the thing. It's super simple. I mean, but, but What's shocking is that there are a lot of folks, organizations, etc., that fall short of that.

Because they think they're doing it. It doesn't matter what they think. It matters what the client thinks, right?

It's so good. It's so right. So true.

No one's sitting around, you know, Jeff, I'm just telling them what they want to hear. People sense it. I mean, I always use like the contractor analogy. You want a new kitchen. Right? What do you know? But you may have one thing that matters, the refrigerator, right? Some brand name or some, you know, granite countertop. But then there's like 50 other things that have to be decided on.

Yeah, the freaking hardware on the silverware drawer, you know? I mean, like the hinge type, like, I mean—

Right. But if the client doesn't want to answer or decide on on all of these, that they want you to curate this.

That's exactly right. And man, that is the art of this profession in a lot of ways. And, you know, it's something that we wrestle with, because there's— you can be inclined to show up with a checklist, right? Tell me this, this, this, this. And man, is it not only ineffective, like no one wants to work with that person. Like, you want to have a human conversation. Now, granted—

Right, and they're going to go with the contractor that gets them.

Totally, totally.

Now, can— how many people can do that kitchen, right? There's probably 50 people within 50 miles, right? Some could do it 10% better, 10% worse, but That communication and that getting of what you have in your mind that you can't articulate.

Right. It's reading between the lines, right? And man, I mean, I listen, I wish you could bottle that up and shoot it into my veins, right? But like, it just comes from experience, I think. Just, yeah.

And I think what you talked about, that cognitive empathy. Putting yourself in their place.

Did I say that? It sounds smart. Wow.

Yeah, you said that.

You said it really—

but yeah, and I think your background develops it, but coming out of college and coming out of either development or marketing, you don't have that.

Yeah, yeah, it's tough. I mean, I wish I— fortunately, I'm so privileged to be able to like mentor a lot of folks at that early stage. And it really is like a privilege and an honor for the folks that want to partake in that process and allow me in, right. And there's— it's so funny, man, because I myself get frustrated, like trying to explain those kinds of concepts. It's very tough, but it has just occurred kind of organically over the course of 20 years of serving customers in this way. I don't know what to tell them, you know? I'm just like—

What part of either your, your game would you have liked to develop more?

Well, uh, I know exactly what part of the game. And like, this is why I'm so excited to talk to you, and I've had my eye like on your course forever, man. Because— and, and the more experience and confident I get— I mean, listen, I'm still very humble. Like, I know that there are parts of my game that I still don't have a good grip on, and And I think like there's this, I was just thinking before we got on, there's this part of the deal where every, it's like the honeymoon, right? It's like—

I know what you're talking about.

The rep's like, we got an opportunity. And I'm like, we got the solution and everyone's great. And like, this is the fun and easy part, right? But after the honeymoon, it's like, okay, how do we get this thing through? And the rep's like, well, we just, we just give them the quote. We just give them the price, right? And then you're like—

Yeah, they sprint it down to procurement.

And it's so easy to fall into this trap of like, just give them the proposal and everything will take care of itself. And it never does, or rarely, rarely, if ever does. And like, this is the moment where you have got to have— I've heard some other people refer to it in less crude or more crude terms perhaps, but it takes some fortitude.

Well, it takes— you have to understand what's going on internally at their company. Because the dating is over, right? And I hate to use marriage, but you get the the contracts, the prenup, right? So you go from this very romantic, right? Everybody's yeah, and all of a sudden now we're talking about well wait a second if we have one kid you get this and. After ten years, something goes up. But how about if this happens? And all of a sudden, well, is he the best you found? You know, there's remember Jerry? You're like maybe Jerry was so sweet, right?

Like yeah, he had you know he had hair coming out of his ears, but he really wanted right.

The rep thinks they give the quote. You know, they high five the manager. They hit procurement, and they say Jenny.

It's going in.

Issue this today. And Jenny looks at you, that's not how it works.

Yeah. So like that process of maintaining, you know what it is like maintaining control of the deal at that stage when everyone wants to do business, right? But it's like, listen, as soon as you give them that quote or that statement of work, man, it is totally, totally out of your hands. And you have lost control of the deal. Now, that is an inevitable part of the deal, but that is the last thing you have control over. And, you know, I still don't think like I've figured out, you know, the right answer there. I mean, the closest I've gotten is like maybe teasing the customer, sharing it, let's get through the prenup phase, then you may have the dessert. I don't know, but—

Well, you gotta understand, The people we're dealing with want it, need it, like it. But then there's the people that have to pay for it. That's right.

Right?

It's like, you know, your kids want to go to Disney World, but you're like, Wally World is 10 miles away.

Right? The credit card company is like, slow down, bucko. Like, what's happening?

And this is what's changed today when we talk about the attention span. What also has changed is Everyone's got an opinion.

Yeah.

And, and the higher you go up, they don't understand this stuff.

No.

So they start asking people why.

Oh yeah.

And then, and the natural thing is to stall.

Yeah, do nothing, right? Well, wait a minute, maybe this problem will go away.

We can wait for the next technology.

Yeah. And to their credit, a lot of times that happens, but like But we in sales, like, you know, if we've done our job, we understand that there is a cost to not taking action. And so that has to be a part, like a very explicit part of your sort of presentation and proposal is.

Right. And, you know, what I teach is that that proposal is more often than not the reason they don't, not because what's on it, But because you think that now that is the end of the sales process, when that's really— you're only 20% or 50% into it.

Interesting.

You know, because I spent my life doing all that work selling new technology, and all of a sudden, you know, 3, 6, 9 months into it, they're not calling me back.

Yeah. Hmm.

And maybe they're busy in procurement writing up the order.

Yeah, yeah, naturally. No, no. Meanwhile, they're going, do I really need this shiny new rock? Right? Yeah.

So believe me, you learn from that pain. And but the problem is it takes a long time to learn how to do that.

Interesting. Hey, I've got one more invention for you before we wrap the interview. Like, the other thing that has been so challenging recently is just like video, you know, this video, I mean, selling in the pandemic is really awful. It's really awful. I mean, many things have been awful about the pandemic. This is just one other Awful thing, right? And you know another thing that I've that I've been really good at is just connecting with people and forming a you know a personal thing. Maybe you see a a plaque on the wall; you can strike it. You know like that stuff is gone, man. I mean you hop on these calls and there's like maybe ten seconds of pleasantries, and then you're into you know the business. Finding the rapport and the connection has been so hard. So I invented this thing. Are you ready? No, just hit it. Like literally. Usually the second call with the customer, when, you know, they're cool, the vibe is right, I go, hey, look, would you entertain me for just 2 minutes? We never get to know each other anymore. But I really think it's important that we understand who we're dealing with. So I invented this thing. This is called— this is— here you go. Hold up here. This is the Bolo Report. The Bolo Report. So when you need to get to know somebody, you reach for the bowl, the Bolo Report. And I have in here questions that you'd ask anybody's grandma. They're perfectly harmless. But So just go, hey, here's what I want to know about you. It's a random selection. So, uh, favorite Muppet? Do you have a favorite Muppet? You know, or I mean, like, we, we get into some really fascinating discussions over the best Winter Olympic event, you know, or something like that. And it just gets everybody out of the— like, shields go down when we start arguing over the, uh, the luge versus the, the biathlon. But, uh, that's just— that's free. Any of your viewers can—

That's free.

Steal that and use it. Just cut up some stupid questions and break the ice with your, with your customers. It's something to try to, to try to make this a little more human, this video, very non-human process.

Great. Hey, Jeff, I appreciate the bowl of rapport and the rest of the interview. Where can people go to follow you and order the bowl?

Follow me on LinkedIn. Yeah, I'd love to connect with you there. And I'm eager to continue the conversation.

Well, what we learned is that rapport is one of the first steps in getting that open, honest, complete communication. Without it, we stay in the rep zone. We get treated like a vendor. Now, if we're treated like a vendor, we're only going to hear the things that our client wants us to hear. And they're going to be overly political, overly polished corporate speak instead of honesty and talking about what they're up against, what they're facing. And each person within our customer base has got a different perspective on it. You would think that they'd all have the same, but they may all share the same. And the problem with that is that We're solving the wrong problem. We got to get deep with our clients. And to get deep, they've got to want to talk with us, not just have to talk with us. Need something, want something. If we stay at that level, we're not going to really win the deal. We might luck out. We might get some repeat business. But how are you going to win the deal If you're not digging into the things that they really care about, the things that they are really going to take action, invest their time and their money with. Building rapport is about showing interest in the other person, being enjoyable to speak with. Yes, you got to be able to dig deep into the problem, but you also got to dig deep into the person. And when I look back at the biggest deals I've ever done, you get that partner-in-crime rapport, meaning that you're working together on something. Yes, they're the client and they're giving you money for what you're doing, but until you get to that level, they're not telling you the truth or the complete truth. Yes, they— what they may say is factually accurate, but incomplete in its accuracy, which enables us to waste an enormous amount of time. Now think about Joe's situation selling managed services. You could go down a rat hole for months, even years, without getting an order. You often have to displace a competitor, and you're changing the way they are doing business, which It's always difficult. You need to have a constant cadence of communication, being able to dig in and understand each step. Now, at the very end of the interview, you could hear his frustration when deals didn't close. And I hope that you picked up on what I was trying to put down there. You know, I hate trying to convince anybody who comes on the, uh, the podcast to check out the courses because that's not the objective at all. But Winning the Complex Sale solves that problem. And if Joe had asked, I would have certainly pointed him that way, but we didn't touch on that at all before, during, or after the interview. But for you as a listener, When you're hearing that, does it sound familiar? You spend all that time, you put a proposal in, and it just doesn't close. They don't say no. They just say, not now, maybe next time, maybe in 6 months, maybe let's keep trying a proof of concept. So they soften the no, but it's not an order. And we only get paid on orders. So all of that months and months of work is unpaid work. It's uncompensated, and it may be even more. And how do you prevent that? Well, you have to understand what's going on internally at the client and who you're talking to. And too often people, you know, oh, you got to get to a decision maker. And I always say, well, what decision? Oh, the decision to buy. Okay, well, you know, to buy it economically, to buy it technically, to buy it now, to buy what, in what order, and who's going to start? They call it the complex sale because it is complex. You've got a lot of people involved. The default is to do nothing. Think about how easy it is to do nothing. Because when you start communicating this internally to cold people, not cold in insensitive, but cold in that, hey, they've got other stuff to do. They have lots of risks. They have lots of credibility. To be able to close these deals, you need a next level of understanding. To be able to not fall into that send me a proposal trap. So that's usually where they die. You don't know it, and you may not know it for another month or quarter. But, and when I say die, I mean not purchase. I don't mean that they won't purchase someday or they won't do something. It's will they do what you want or what you've been talking about all this time? You know, think about when you make a major purchase, a summer house, a house, kitchen remodeling, a car. It's sure easy to walk off that lot, to walk out of the showroom, to let us think about it, and let's not think about it. Because to do it, it's not the money. Yeah, the money's a part of it, but it's usually the change. It's the action. It's the risk that people are concerned about. They're not expressing it. They're not telling you it. It's the unforeseen things that we need to not walk into. And that's what I mean by traps. We tend to just fall into these things and then shrug our shoulders and say, oh, you know, I thought they were qualified. I thought they were telling us the truth. But it's more complicated than that. If you want to win these deals, you have to really dig in, prepare, anticipate, prevent, not just repair. Because think of all that time people say, well, I don't have time to take the course. We have time to lose deals. How many? Okay, you get, uh, you know, 4 quarters a year, uh, Your win rate is— most companies, maybe 30, 40% of the stuff that you work on. That's what I mean by win rate. I don't mean you lose it to a competitor. I mean that, okay, think of all the presentations and proposals you sent out. How many come back as closed won? That's kind of what I mean. Now, you can chalk it up to a lot of different things. Oh, I should have qualified harder. Or they're not the right people, or that wasn't the right time. And some of that's true, but you chose to work on them. You chose to give the presentation. You chose to give a proposal. Why don't you focus on the ones that are most likely to close and close them in the way that is closable, not by sending a proposal? And it's your time. It's your money. You can't get that year back. You can't get that quarter, that month, or that day back. So if you don't think you have time, oh, you have time. Don't have money? Oh, you have plenty of money. You just pissed it away on the wrong deals. You just wasted it on accounts that aren't closing. Just think of one of those deals. What's the commission rate on that? Makes the course look like peanuts. It pays for itself before you even get the bill. But get serious about your career. And look, it's not just time. A lot of the people that I talk with have got 25, 30 years experience. No one teaches this. How did I learn it? I learned it because I wanted to. I hated wasting time. I started off in a company where you've got maybe 10 deals a year. That's being way optimistic. You lose one of them, it's, you know, the commission rate on one of them was— I'm just probably thinking $20 grand, $30 grand. Uh, I got a $100K check when I was 25 years old. It was so sweet. You know, today's dollars, that's about $200 million. No, it's not that much. I'm not that old. But when you think about the cost You're playing a game that you don't understand. You're playing a game that you're lost. You're guessing. You're wondering what the client's going to do. You can kind of guess. You can kind of, through historic reasoning, figure it out. And if you're following what you see on LinkedIn, it's about, oh, emails. And oh no, no, it's about people. And when you understand how companies buy, you understand what to do and not— and know what not to do. Instead of just working on the deals that are going to close, work on the deals that can close. Go to b2brevenue.com, check it out. I put together a new video that goes into gory detail about each course and what you get out of it and which one's the right match for you. Uh, the link is in the show notes of the podcast. It's on my LinkedIn profile. And, uh, it's also in the description on the YouTube video, the frequently asked questions video, which comes up as soon as you hit the YouTube channel. Uh, just search Brian Burns Sales on YouTube and you'll see it. We'll see you next time. Tell a friend about the show. Make sure you're checking out the other podcasts, Sales Questions, Brutally Honest Answers. B2B Revenue Leadership Show and the Sales Leadership Show. We'll see you next time.