THE TOP SKILLS NO ONE WILL TELL YOU ABOUT BUT ME...

What does it take to have a full, rewarding career in sales? A full career. And how do you do that? Is it more mindset? I think it is. What I hear a lot from reps, even early in their career, 5 years into it, they get burnt out. They get a little tired of the rat race, the rejection. Um, the, you know, starting the quota over every year. But what does it take to be able to do it long term, to do it for 20, 30-plus years and still enjoy it? That is hard. It's a lot of mindset. It's a lot of perspective of how to view the career and what you do. And you might say, well, I don't want to do this. And certainly when I was younger, you have these big, you know, I guess dreams you call it. But what ends up happening is, yeah, you need to work, you need to make money, you need to pay the bills, you need to save for retirement and the rest of your life and help other people out. And you tend to work. And you want your work to be rewarding. You want it to be satisfying. And you want to have it be worth your time. So how do you work through those issues, prevent the burnout, have the right perspective on it, not let the grind grind you down? That's what we're going to be talking about today. And at first, you might look at this and say, well, ah, what What can I learn from this? I think you can learn a lot because that mindset needs to be developed. It doesn't happen automatically. Just because you have a good day, a good quarter, a good month, or even a good year, there's gonna be waves. I think you might have noticed that so far. But how do you handle them? How do you be in charge of them instead of them being in charge of you? Now, the default in sales is typically to burn out after a few years. And maybe you're lucky, you get a great boss, a great company, and you have the upward spiral forever. That's unusual. What most of us have is we have good years, bad years, and then we kind of hit a wall. It might be 10, 20, 25 years into it. And Then what do we do? And that's kind of the challenge of sales. We could go into sales leadership, but that's really a whole different job. It's, it's a lot more internal politics, administration. Uh, they call it leadership, but it's a lot more management than it is leadership, certainly today. And if you don't like the CRM as a rep, you're definitely not going to like it as a manager. So what do you do? Go into marketing and you start a career all over again? How do we really develop these skills? And I think they're mindsets. And I think that the mindset is kind of either minimized or simplified or just making, making it just positive. I think it needs to be a lot more than that. So let's get into the interview. A lot of these elements I try and teach in the course. Because what you have to do is develop this curiosity and empathy for the client. And these things take time. They're not innate. And it's not about knowing that you have to do it. It's about doing it and doing it well. Let's get into the interview. I'll sum it up at the end.

Hey, Phil, thanks for doing the show today.

As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Well, thanks, Brian, and thank you so much for having me. I'm a New England guy, born and raised. And, you know, other than a 4-year stint down in the Carolinas for college, I came back to New England, started my career at a company called Acopy America. And I actually started with the old IBM typewriters. So it goes back a bit in time. And here I am today, 35 years later, 3 kids through college, 2 happily married. And my wife and I have a beautiful lake home and I consider myself truly fortunate and blessed. So, uh, it's, it's been a long haul, a lot of learning and growing, but, um, just the chase, the thrill and being a sales rep, it's, you know, it's, it's a passion and I loved it. And that's, that's one of the reasons why I love, you know, your podcast and going on LinkedIn LinkedIn and seeing your stuff, it's just so much a part of my life. And, uh, you know, your sayings and your comments and the strategy and discussion with all the other sales reps across the country and the world, it's really engaging and fun. I feel like I can contribute, and it's just why I was drawn in to you and your, your website.

Yeah, you know, I find Kind of weird because I got this comment on YouTube the other day where this guy was saying that he saved up money for his kids to go through college so that they wouldn't have to go into sales.

You know, it's funny. Yeah. Are you crazy? Why?

So they can make half as much?

I know.

Sit in meetings all day.

Oh, that's so funny. It's funny because My 2 boys who are both in their 30s now, now back in the day, as you know, we'd get up, put on a suit and a tie. And of course the shirt had to be white or gray. The suit had to be dark, you know, your classic Xerox IBM model. And my kids would always say, Dad, I don't want to wear a suit. And I'm like, well, it depends what you sell, but it ain't so bad, boys. You know, you schedule your own time, your own appointments. I go to your soccer games. I go, you know, you control your own destiny. And that's always been it for me.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I did the engineering route until I found out how much the salespeople made. And it was like, I was working probably harder as an engineer. It was 7 days a week, every waking hour, you had to get a release out. And I was making My target income was their base income.

Right, right, right. I, I remember we'd have people over to our home and everyone would be like, Phil, what do you, what do you do for a living? Well, I sell a copy machine. And they were like looking at me like, are you a doctor? Are you? No, I'm not a doctor. I sell copy machines. But, um, the opportunity to write your own ticket.

Yeah.

Um, it just, it blew my mind. I remember my father saying my first year, um, so this is going back to, you know, the late '80s, but I was sitting with my dad and I told him year 1 I did about $25,000, $30,000, and then year 2 I had hit $60,000. My father said, I've never in my life doubled my income. And that struck a chord with me in the late '80s. I've never in my life doubled my income. And, you know, it just— something clicked. Cool.

Well, yeah, well, let's talk about your journey. You know, I'm sure you learned a lot along the way.

You know, you know, it's so funny you say that. Is it the school of hard knocks, or is it all the Training curriculums you go to, Brian. It's a combination of both. I mean, I'm at where I'm at because I had my teeth kicked in for 35 years. I'm also where I'm at because I've attended selling seminars on spin selling, Sandler submarine, LARE—listen, explore, acknowledge, respond—consultive selling, solution selling. I mean, I've been through every selling seminar. there is to mankind. You pick out bits and pieces, you stay true to yourself, you get your teeth kicked in, and it's an evolution. Um, and then you reach a point and you're just— I don't want to say cocky, it's your confidence. And it's this level you have that you know if you really dive in and execute a plan, it's winnable.

Yeah.

And even cooler, Brian, you know when you're kind of on the outside looking in and you say, I can focus my energy somewhere else. And, you know, it's very rewarding to think after this journey that I'm almost there. And of course I'll never be there, but I do feel, I do feel at a spot in my life, it's almost fun. It's fun. It's a game.

Because I see— I felt that myself, and I see it a lot in reps. What was that turning point, that kind of epiphany where it went from kind of a grind to all of a sudden you got it? Kind of what you characterized as cocky, but that level of confidence, what they call the flow state, where you, you could brush off the rejection and just focus in on what works for you?

You know, I don't know. I, Brian, I don't know if there was a moment where I said I'm on easy street because I still take a loss today as hard as I did 30 years ago.

Do you?

Um, yeah, because I compete. You know, you're in hyper-competitive space. Incredibly. Yeah, I just, you know, I'm not going to call it Charlie Sheen winning. But, but, but I— Yeah, I know, I know. Oh boy, poor guy. Um, but I am gonna say that I wake up competing every day and I've never lost it. And somewhere along that line, I still want to compete every day. Athletically, my knees and ankles say forget it, but Competing in the business world, you know, mentally it's very rewarding. It keeps me stimulated. So I never had the epiphany. I never said I made it. I still don't think I made it, but I don't know, maybe 5 or 10 years ago, I just came to the resolution. I'm blessed and fortunate.

Well, I think we all go through this journey. where, you know, like what you brought up about the sales seminars, you know, I did— you start with books, blog posts, whatever the common content is at the time, because you're always looking for the secret, the magic bullet, the— and those things are helpful. But then you get to a point where you get some success. And all of a sudden, you start having good judgment skills. Especially, you work in a hypercompetitive space and a very difficult territory. You know, I grew up in New England. I know how friendly the people are up there.

Well said.

Yeah. How welcome they are to strangers. Trusting.

Yeah, very Puritanistic values. But New England's like that. Now, on the flip side, On the flip side, when that relationship is truly established— so I'm in a whole new industry today.

Yeah.

And I have friends from 25 years ago. We still have a cigar together and we talk about the old days selling the copy machines. And he's with one company, I'm with another. And today our families are friends based on those relationships. And, um, you know, That's another just outside rewarding aspect of the job, that there are 3 or 4 people I can today, today say that that's one of my best friends. And it came about from a job where that business relationship turned into the kids, the wives, what about dinner one night, let's catch a sporting event. And then it was, hey, you know, maybe we'll get together on the weekend for a cookout. And that's one of those outside rewards, another reason I fell in love with being a sales rep.

Yeah, because New England has that thing. It's like you're outside the tribe until you're inside. But once you're inside, it's a great place to be.

Um, correct, correct. And, um, another thing, I mean, uh, I think about this frequently. Change, you know, that, that, that fun word change, and just being able to adapt. The market changes, products change, territories change, compensation packages change. And not only do you have to go with the flow and continuously evolve, you also have to maintain that relationship. And you have to have that trust and effort to say, we're changing and here's why. Can you go with me? Because it could work for both of us. And that's part of the partnership. And I always found the people unwilling to change were the people— you know, I spent 25 years at one company.

Right.

My kids are like, is there something wrong with you? And I think nowadays you're supposed to change every 3 to 4 years to show versatility. But I always felt that the people who couldn't change quit and went to the next job and the next job and the next job. I thought the people that changed were the ones who spent 20 years at one organization, different products, different comp, different solutions.

Now, how have you prevented Burnout, because that's the classic thing. Because this type of career, the good part is you have the variable and control over your income. The bad part is it gets reset pretty much every year, so the handicap becomes bigger and bigger, harder and harder.

Are you, are you asking me about maybe burning out?

Yeah.

You know, Has not happened to me. You know, it's something interesting, but throughout 34 or 35 years, the amazing thing is every 30 days you get a fresh start. Every 30 days—

Whether you like it or not.

You get to reinvent. I mean, you know, you're the king, you know, June 1st, you're in the bottom, you know, you're in the bottom of the basement. On the 30th, you get a fresh start, July One, every 30 days you get to reinvent. I guess, uh, that keeps me fresh, that keeps me motivated, that keeps me from getting complacent.

Yeah.

So, you know, interestingly, I haven't burnt out. I'm sure one day I'll be sitting on a golf course in the cart telling people to speed up, speed up. Um, But, but for today, that every 30-day cycle—

Yeah.

And don't get me wrong, it's a grind, but it's also every 30 days a reset, a restart. And I've, you know, I've never been too high. I've never been too low. And I'm an emotional guy. I mean, I, you know, I'm one of those people that say they wear their emotions on their sleeve. Um, but I love the opportunity every month to restart, reinvent, salvage a month, a quarter, a year. You know, you're never out of the game, Bri. You're never out. Cool.

And what do you wish you knew at the beginning that you know now?

Well, something you posted a few weeks ago about listening skills. I spent the first 5, 10 years trying to share my wisdom and knowledge, which didn't go so well.

Where the little grasshoppers didn't gather around you.

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, here I am, you know, 30 years later, still working on those listening skill sets. I guess if there's anything I knew from the get-go was to really, you know, stay calm, stay in the moment, stay in the moment in that conversation with the customer. And really, what are they asking me and what can I solve for them rather than to throw up what I know and offer? And that took a while. I mean, you just want to prove that you have value, you know, and in a good way, in a good way. You genuinely want to share information, and I wasn't willing to just take a back seat and listen, and that took time. Um, you know, I, I guess my wife would tell you I'm still working on that skill set.

Was there a trigger event for that, or was it you just started to learn that the meetings went better when you came up with questions and dug into what they cared about? Or did you see someone else do it and you go, wow?

You know, it's kind of funny, but, uh, I have always been a big fan of rehearsing. Yeah, rehearsing a script. You know, back in the day, we'd put a fax machine side by side, and we would demonstrate to the team or the manager. And we'd, you know, thank you for having me in, and, you know, it was a lovely drive, and what a great town, and your office park's beautiful. And, you know, we'd role-play. And the more and more you role-play, and the more and more you rehearse, and, you know, people kept saying, Phil, I asked you a question, but you just went on to the next feature and the next feature. So through that rehearsal, through that role play, through just again getting your teeth kicked in, you know, the little things every year— I developed this, I developed that, I improved on this feature or that feature. And I wish I could tell I wish I could say there's a shortcut, but I don't think so. I, I think you have to— I think you have to take a few punches to truly learn.

Well, and it is a process, and it's a performance. Like, that rehearsal is going through it because there's so many elements of it. There's your pace, there's your tonality, there's your energy level. Are you smiling or confused? And then, you know, developing your questions.

100%. I mean, you know, and we did have scripts. I mean, everyone had a script. And I don't necessarily recommend a script, but I 100% recommend an outline. Sure. 100%. I mean, I think 100% There is a welcome, an appreciation for being there, and an agenda. And I think it's important. You know, I can't thank you enough for inviting me to your podcast. You know, I just want to be cognizant of your time. You know, how much do we have allocated? And here's what I think we'll go over today. And did I miss anything?

Yeah.

And is there anything else you would like to see that I can add. And over the next 30 or 45 minutes, based on your schedule, if we can cover these items, would you be positioned at the end of this to move forward? And although, again, it was scripted, that really built the outline, the agenda. It kept me and it kept the customer on par and focus. So, um, I do subscribe to it. I do rehearse it. I don't think— I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I think you can be genuine in delivering it, and it's worked. It's worked for me, and I don't think it makes me less genuine following an agenda or a script.

No, it's— you know, people say, oh, I don't like a structured process. It doesn't have to be that structured. If you go over to a friend's house for dinner, There's a sequence you go through. Yeah, how you been? Ask about the kids, the dog, the career. It's— is it really that different?

No, no, because you know, you know you're probably gonna A, knock on that door, B, show up with a housewarming gift or a dish. Exactly. Thank everybody, have a welcome beverage, and then sit down at the table and talk about family and What have we done since the last time we met? You know?

And it's the people who don't have a process and they bring up, you know, a hot topic that's a bomb. Yeah. The other people feel emotionally about, there's no real meaning to the dinner.

Yeah. And you know, it's funny, but this conversation triggers another thing that helped me out. I've been a big individual in writing down my goals, and they're not just my goals, they're my wife's goals.

More importantly.

Yeah, like when you look at that list and it says new refrigerator, odds are that's her. But our goals, our goals are done yearly to this day. And the goals have changed, but the goals are still goals. I wanted to put money away for college. I wanted to pay off a mortgage. I wanted to take the kids to Disney World. Now it's, I want to go to Europe for 2 weeks. Now it's 62 is the magic number to get out of the game.

Yeah.

So, the goals have changed. But there are goals every single year, and I look at them. I mean, I look at them. Well, granted, you know, the slip used to be on the refrigerator. Now it's in the underwear drawer. But, but the point being, there is a sheet with goals, and it's helped me.

And I, and I think it does.

And I think people tend to put down like these huge ones that are way out. And it sounds like you do annual, what you want to reach that year. Is that what works for you?

Correct. Yeah, correct. And yeah, there are income goals. There are income goals. There are President's Clubs, Diamond Clubs. There are vacations. There's new furniture. There's pay myself. You know, I need to pay myself. I mean, you know, I have a little slush fund and every year I want to grow the slush fund. Of course, I'm never going to touch the slush fund and it's got no purpose, but it gives me security, comfort level.

Yeah.

Yeah. So it's there. I mean, so I reward myself and when I hit it again, it's a, it's another little thing where I go back and say, you know, this was something I targeted and here I am and it's September and we hit it. And oh my God, we still got 4 months left. What a great feeling. What a good accomplishment. Um, so those, you know, I guess I'm that kind of person. I'm a little OCD. I don't know, maybe that's part of being a sales rep, but, um, you know, I have, you know, in front of me, I have to-do lists. I do to-do lists all the time. I have little notes. Um, it helps me. It gives me— it gives me that everyday comfort level, what I want to accomplish. So, um, God, it's funny. I seem borderline neurotic, but—

Not at all.

It's really just played into where I am today, you know.

Now, you talked about a loss. You know, when you do lose a deal, especially a deal that you worked hard on, that you anticipated, that you felt you did the right things, how do you process that?

Painstakingly. I feel pain. I mean, and they stick with me. I can tell you, I can tell you more losses than wins, and I've probably closed $40,000 or $50,000 deals. But for some reason, I can tell you the losses and the wins seem to blur. I don't know why that is. But as far as processing goes, you know, I do ask myself what I could have done differently. I do ask myself if I engaged all the right resources. I do look at events. Sometimes I can internalize and say I made a mistake, and sometimes I can internalize that I did the best I could and they didn't select me.

Yeah.

So, but it is a process, and I don't let go easy, and it will stick with me.

Yeah, it's— Well, you know, because I think reps look at it the wrong way sometimes, because that loss, that lost income off of that, is the tuition you paid for that lesson.

True. Oh, oh, no doubt, no doubt. And that time, and that time away. And now, now here's something I did learn. I did learn to stop chasing the no-winnables.

There you go. Yeah.

Uh, I did, I did learn, I did learn that when decisions were purely money motivated to put in the level of effort versus the true value add. Yeah. So yes, once again, through a 5, 10, 15, even 20 years I have learned to put in what traditionally I'll get back. And, you know, quite frankly, I'm not even sure there's much reward in winning a bid. I mean, and don't get me wrong, I mean, bids are very common today, and bids where you add in value and service and you carve out, or you have the bid specifications directed towards your solutions, your products, And your value. I get all that. But when it's a legitimate, hey, we want these 3 boxes and we're going to take the low cost, I'm not invested. I'm not invested. And thank God, because that would be a tough way to live.

And I think, you know what I call that? That's judgment. It's judgment and prioritization. You know, if it's a blind bid, they don't— you don't know them, what's your likelihood of winning?

Correct, correct. I mean, without establishing value, without building a relationship, you know, without, you know, as they say, peeling back the layers of the onion, you know, without really diving in, you know, there wouldn't be satisfaction in the wind. You know, so I think it's interesting, but when you look at deals over your career, but the most satisfying ones are the ones where there was an executed plan, a strategy, a presentation, competition, Give and take, you know, that, you know, moment of crisis, um, and then it all coming together. Holy cow, all the resources, the team, the approach, and then finally the victory. And it is cool, and it is cool. And yeah, it's one of the things that you love about the job. I mean, you almost love the win more than the money. And I love money, but yeah, I like, I like that accomplishment. I like that victory. I like it. And I like delivering on it.

Yeah. Because I think a lot of reps look at the, the easier deals, the inbound, you know, because inbound is good, but if it's inbound, they're probably not looking at just you.

No doubt. No doubt. I mean, Now, um, you always need a combination. You need, you need inbound, you need outbound. You can have telemarketing, you could be cold calling. You also, when you get a foot in the door, you have to grow and you have to expand. Um, you know, I mentioned on LinkedIn one of the things that you had posted, something I learned Maybe 7 or 8 years into the chase was before walking out that door with the deal, saying, Brian, is there anything else? Is there anything else I can help you with today? It's amazing the amount of money that could be left on the table without asking that question. And, um, you know, again, that's, you know, So, so many things can escape you. That's a great close. Yeah, but when you truly get in and ask and dive deeper and expand, and, um, all fun and rewarding things that you'll learn over time. Again, no shortcuts, Brian.

Yeah. Now, I'm sure you're exposed to a lot of junior reps or people asking you for advice and help. What do you typically see them needing to hear versus wanting to hear?

Um, it's interesting. Uh, you can see behind me a payphone, and I used to drive all over New England looking for payphones to call the office and to call a customer. Today we walk—

What happened to your iPhone?

Oh, I got an iPhone, all right. Today, today, you know, you don't go to the bathroom without your iPhone.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so things have changed. Things have changed a lot. But what do, what do I share? I think I share, uh, being genuine. I think I share being honest and ethical. I think I share to be persistent. Um, you know, you know, someone once asked me, what do I consider a normal day? And now, this is just me, but pretty much from the time I wake up to the time I go to bed, I'll take a phone call. It's not that hard.

No.

It's just not that hard. To say, hey, Bill, how you doing? No, I don't have the answer yet. I've sent it in. Soon as I get it, 100%, I'm there. I got you covered the minute I find out. Even if you don't know the answer, but to take the call, respond to the note, you know. That's it. I don't think sales— it's so funny, you know, it's the people that tell you sales is hard, people that say, gee, it's hard, it's hard, it's hard. They may not be salespeople. I don't think it's hard. And now, now don't get me wrong, I think it's commitment and I think it's dedication.

Yeah.

But you have to be willing To take the call.

Yeah.

You, you just, you know, and, and so what I tell junior reps, whether you like it or not, A, if you haven't been in that building, you should walk in that building and introduce yourself. B, if you don't know the answer, pick up the darn phone anyhow and say, I don't know it yet, but I'll find out. But I don't think you can hide anymore. I think you have to be accountable 24/7.

And that's it, because any of those calls that might be viewed as problems by some people are really an opportunity to expand the relationship, develop the trust.

Yeah, 100%.

Reciprocation.

Yeah. Is there really anything embarrassing about saying, I don't know, but I'll find out.

Right.

Um, I don't think so. And yeah, I think that you are establishing that I'm there for you, that I care. And I think customers, clients, relationships, which turn into friendships, are built by those phone calls. Some of my best friends today are convinced I know nothing about technology, and I sell talk. I sell technology, and I know nothing about technology. I can admit that, but I can 100% say I will always be here. I will never let you down. You know, no, I I don't know how the copy machine worked, or the interactive panel, or the PC, or the computer. I have an IT department. I have a support. Support center. I have professional development. You know, you know, being the quarterback is handing it off to a running back.

Yeah.

Being the quarterback is throwing the ball to a receiver. Being the quarterback is executing a game plan from a coach or a manager. I mean, that's really what we are. I mean, you know, I don't like the term rock star, and I hear it a lot in the industry. Um, I, I don't look at it like that. It's like you're the guy who brings it all together, you know? You're like the air traffic controller. You, you know, runway 2 and 3 are busy, send them here. I mean, that's really what I am, you know?

That's a good analogy.

Yeah. And I just thought of it. That's scary.

Yeah. Cool. Hey, Phil, I really appreciate your time today. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

Uh, well, certainly I'm on LinkedIn and certainly I follow you. And, um, I have to tell you, uh, I've really enjoyed my time with you today. And I guess if I could leave anybody with any comment, um, I truly enjoy what you put out there on LinkedIn. And I find it fun. I find it educating. And, you know, Bra, you are certainly never too old to learn something new. So that's why I'm always listening. I'm always learning. It's fun.

What did I take out of this? I think that empathy, instead of just thinking about how you feel all the time, Focusing on the client, focusing on the positive things that you can impact, how to use your time in the most effective way for both you and your clients, finding the right match for what you're selling, not trying to do things that aren't a good match, and having a little bit of fun, making sales a process of learning because it's one of those professions where you never know it all and you're never perfect. So much like any game, it's a constant level of improvement, a constant review of each performance, each sales call, each conversation, each interaction with another person. Are you thinking about how they're viewing it, how to get them to view it your way, and how you can do that in the most fun and effective way? That is what sales is about. What we're trying to do today, I think, is turn it into this cadence of best practices. And that, that's okay to a certain level. But I think when you relinquish it to just that instead of making it an interaction. The reason they have people in sales is because we can communicate with other people. A website doesn't do that. You need interaction. You need questions and answers. You need explanations. You need to describe things. Storytelling. I know that's overused. used today. But how well you do that, how well you connect with that other person, we're trying to squeeze that out because, you know, investors and MBAs don't like that. They don't think that— they think that's old school. But think about when you want to buy something. Don't you want to talk with somebody? Whether you're buying a car, a TV, or a house, whatever it is, you can see it online, you can check it out, and maybe you're analytical enough that you can make that type of decision. But maybe you've made that type of decision and you've made mistakes. You didn't know the difference between this standard and that standard, or this neighborhood and That neighborhood. It's becoming comfortable with it, understanding it, learning about it, finding out what mistakes or things you're going to overlook. You know, I have the story of buying a TV online and it just didn't turn out the way I wished because they all look the same online. You can't really tell the difference between the pictures. You can go on YouTube and do some research and maybe I would have learned that way. But I'm the type of person, I tend to like rush those decisions. And then you make the mistake because now you have to live with it, not for days or weeks, but years sometimes. It's too expensive to just throw away and or trade in, but you have to adapt. When we talk about sales, I think we got to look at it the right way. It's not just having the right questions. It's having them asked in the right way at the right time with the right tempo and empathy for the other person and having that curiosity. These things aren't binary. You're not just curious or not curious. You have to develop it like an art. And if we try and turn sales into just a science, and there's scientific elements to it. I mean, it's like psychology, but is that a pure science like chemistry? No. I mean, chemistry is kind of like a pure science, but then isn't cooking like chemistry? It is to a certain extent, except for the interpretation of the result is subjective to the person interpreting it. The person tasting and eating it. This is stuff that we need to explore. Sometimes we get overwhelmed when we think about it, and the point isn't to overwhelm us. The point is to keep us focused on what is better. And what we do is we get blinded by the outcome. We think that if we did better but didn't get the sale, That it was wrong. No, it might have just been the wrong person or the wrong time or the wrong situation or the wrong company, but it doesn't necessarily mean we didn't do better at selling. And what we tend to do is if we don't get the outcome, we, we think it's wrong. I think we all have to look at sales in a unique way and explore it and think of it as kind of this infinite game instead of just finite, and understand and embrace the complexity of it instead of being intimidated by it and coming up with our robotic process. And the robotic process is, you know, it's a good place to start, but it's not a good place to be. And as salespeople, if you want to be better, you have to do things differently. So I hope you enjoyed this interview. If you're looking to become better at sales, there's 2 major skills. There's being able to start a conversation to get a meeting, and then there's winning the complex sale. You have to understand the game you're playing, first of all, and no one teaches that. They teach subject lines and call to actions, and those things, they've been played. I'm sorry, the stuff you're seeing out there is 20 years old. The world has changed, and you need to change with it and to become better and, and start thinking like a successful salesperson, not A robot. Everyone's teaching robotic actions, personalization at scale. Yeah, is it more like spam at scale? What we have to do is figure out our puzzle, our situation, our game, and play that game better and better every day, not just use a better subject line. Better call to action, a better, uh, ghosting email. If you want to learn what's working from the people who have done it and to engage, and instead of it being a 2-day course, you get a year-long access. You get office hours, an hour meetup every other Friday for 1 hour on Zoom, all recorded, put back on the course, unlimited one-on-ones. You get to hear other people, what they're doing, share what you're doing, get feedback, get improvements, build up a little bit of a community of people who are selling into your space. Not competitors, but just people who are facing the similar challenges as you. And it's not about just overcoming them, it's just getting better. Because in sales, you get better, you make more money. You can wait for your company to make you better, but they don't look at it that way. They look at you— either you get better or we replace you with somebody that gets better. Sorry, that's reality. That's what they're thinking. No one's going to tell you that except for me. That's why they call me Mr. Cooperative. Hey, if you're looking for the videos, they're all on YouTube. Please tell a friend about the show. Thanks for listening.