HOW EVERYONE GETS THIS WRONG AND HOW TO FIX IT...

One of the hardest things about sales is that most of it is counterintuitive, meaning it doesn't come to us naturally, that we have to consciously think about it to become good at it. We have to become empathetic. That is an advanced skill, an advanced human skill. Today, we're going to be talking about some of these skills. And what I want you to do is really think about it because the natural thing when people hear this is, I know it, good reminder. But ask yourself, how am I applying it? How can I apply it better? How can I leverage it and get some kind of compounding on it? One of the elements we're going to talk about is the paying forward idea. Now, So much of sales is giving. And we think, well, what do you mean by that? Well, listening is a give. It sounds like a take, that you're taking in what they're saying, but it's really a give that you're showing interest in the other person, that you're curious about them, that you're also trying to help them articulate what is going on in their world. Being that type of person, that giving of your full attention is a give. Now, what we often think a give is something that we give a presentation. That's not a give. That's kind of a take. We're going to give a discovery call or give a demo. That's— it can be a give if you really put put your energy into it and have it customized and well thought out, but it's kind of a take also. You're taking their time. Now, this concept seems, uh, obvious, yet how many people do you see doing it? Well, let me give you an example. You get together with your friends, uh, and you know, you should stop by the grocery store or the liquor store, get a bottle of wine. Or you could just take one out of the closet, or I'll get you next time. But there's always that one person who does something special, goes to a special bakery, makes something, gets something special, and that person stands out. And it took effort. It took thought. That is a give. These things, you know, maybe it's just a guy thing, and I don't mean to be Sexist here, but I just want you to really think about it because one of the key distinctions that I found in winning deals is that the person who gives the most gets the most back. That law of reciprocation is only initiated when we give first. Everyone gets it when they receive something. When you get something, then you go, oh, I'll give something now. But that's not how sales works. That's how we think it works. They pay us or they buy the product and we deliver the product or service. Well, it'd be nice if it worked that way. And sometimes repeat business works that way, or retail might work that way. But in B2B, Business to business, you're giving, giving, giving, and then hopefully you get an order. And sometimes you're giving for long periods of time, so you have to be judicious about it. You can't be mindless about it. Part of the giving is giving to the right person in the right way with something that they value and consider important to them. Let's get into the interview. Hey, Phil, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Yeah. Good morning, Brian. Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you and all your fans out there. I know that you have a large following and at the same time, I admire the brand that you've built and, you know, through my network, and it's a very tight network, we tend to watch and share some information, some laughs and some serious conversations. So Phil Smith lived in the Chicago area but also lived all over the country. So what's been great about that is learning about different types of business and how environments work and cultures work. Started as a developer of all things, and I started in elections and governmental consulting.

Exciting.

So yeah, it's— and learned at a very young age, you never tell anybody who your favorite is, so to speak, or which party you prefer. I always say it's nonpartisan because when I was working in my 20s in a government, like a courthouse, the circuit clerk could be Democratic and the Republican could be the county clerk. So if you said, I'm nonpartisan, I signed an NDA with my company. Since I'm in the election business, I'm not allowed to talk to it. They thought I was a genius in my 20s. And as you did, created your own brand. But starting development, developed the first court system for the Midwest, which became a standard. I've been told by my peers today I'm a dinosaur when it comes to development, but they're still using a lot of my code that I developed back then, believe it or not, because the business hasn't changed much. The technology's gotten faster and better. And then rolled into a sales role and learned how to be a consultative trusted advisor from when you're young and you think you know it all and you're going to take over the world and you're going to be the number one guy being transactional. So that's how I developed my career in the last 10 years. I've always stayed ahead of the curve with technology. So I've been involved with data, big data, low-code, and security and DevOps.

Yeah. You're still selling pretty technical stuff though, right?

Oh, very much so. Very much so, even more today because of agile and digital and business transformation. And then you look at a lot of companies here in the Midwest, they're not like the Bay Area or New England. They're all legacy companies in most cases, right? So is McDonald's worried about the latest and greatest technology? Technically, no, but they have changed to learn that social media is very important to them as a company. So, you know, you bring the value to McDonald's as they transition from just not being a hamburger and a Happy Meal man for your kids, but they also become a social media company that has to change to become an IT company, as we all know. You know, what do they say? Data is the number one asset of a company, and every company is a technology company today.

Yeah, I'm not sure I buy into that data. I think what they think of as good data, I agree with. But I think how you— if you're able to make meaning out of that data.

Yeah, no doubt about it. Well, that's what Domino's has done, because I've worked at Domino's in the past. And everybody thinks that Domino's is a company that provides pizza. It's way beyond that. They're a very technical company. They're very forward-thinking, very open source. You know, they jumped on open source and became a real technology company and, you know, got into mobility. And that's really drove a lot of their sales is becoming more of a mobile platform. So the college kids, you know, down in Champaign, Illinois can then click in a point, their pizza's there in 30 minutes or less.

Yeah, nobody wants to talk to anybody anymore.

No, no, isn't that right? Yeah, I think that's very important. That's what's lost in today's sales environment though, Brian, is It's easier. I hate— I'm not a fan of texting. Social media is a necessary evil in a lot of ways. It has its positives and negatives.

Yeah.

But to get on Twitter and pound my chest and be a peacock doesn't really interest me. I think LinkedIn is a great platform. That's how I met you and what you've done. But I think there's also a happy medium and, you know, 15,000+ SaaS vendors out there all calling on the same accounts. You know, I was asked, who's your competition? the other day and I said, the true competition isn't who competes against me and my technology. It's the 15,000 other vendors that are going after the same budgetary dollar and the same resources that I needed to get us going. So it's changed a lot.

Yeah, because we think of our competition as the people in the category or in the quadrant. And the real competition is time, attention, energy, and trust.

Yeah, I agree. I think that's why it's important to have a good brand, that that person sitting across the desk from you is getting ready to sign off on a, you know, a proposal and is going to bet his career on you, that he— that you put yourself in his place. And I've always felt that if I didn't believe in the technology, or if it's becoming older technology, or the management and high turnover, I've got to get out and move on. And, uh, and, and so that's why I've been able to go and keep on going back into the companies over and over, over the years, because these customers do trust me. They realize I work as a trusted advisor and I'm concerned about their success too.

Yeah, I always remember it. Chicago was a good territory, but it wasn't Silicon Valley, it wasn't Boston, it wasn't even Atlanta or Dallas.

It was— but it was good. Right, right.

But different.

Well, and it goes for, you know, just not Chicago, the Midwest. And I mean, if you look at Minnesota, it's got— you look at Minneapolis, how many Fortune 500 companies are up there, right? But your word is your contract here in the Midwest. It's the old going back to the days of Ray Kroc, because I've worked with McDonald's. And until the, you know, $2 cup of coffee cost them $2 million, they had the most stringent They didn't have very stringent contracts. You know, their agreement with Coca-Cola was by handshake with Ray Kroc. Now you go through their MSA, it's very, very detailed and intense because they got to protect themselves. So that's where it really— I felt it comes from is loyalty and your word here in the Midwest. It's a real Midwest thing. And you bring that up because I've talked to quite a few folks that are trying to bring in new products or break into the Midwest and they go, it's so difficult, I don't know how to do it. But it's, it's really your reputation, your brand, and, you know, your word. And, you know, I've been here for a long time, pretty much my whole career. And, you know, if I would have burned a bridge or nuked a bridge in like an Abbott Laboratories, how am I going to be able to walk in the door again? So I think it's very important that you go in with an open mind that the Midwest is a lot different if you're going to do business here.

Yeah. And what differentiates you as a rep? I'm sure you've, you've worked with a lot of reps. You've got a great resume. You came highly recommended.

Well, thanks. Um, I pay life forward. I think it has to do a lot— you know, I, when there were newspapers, I delivered newspapers in the afternoon, the highly coveted paper route back in the day. Um, I think it has to do a lot with how I was raised. My grandfather ran Northwestern's dental school when it was around, so he was highly visible in the education, higher ed community. My uncle was the CEO of AT&T until 1974, and he actually brought the first bag phone in Rochester. So I have a lineage here that I have to stick with. And I've seen these gentlemen that didn't pound their chest. They were very soft-spoken Norwegian guys that worked very, very hard. But like my uncle, his name was Håkon Ramnes. So they were all Norwegian names, but his middle initial was I, and I can't even pronounce his middle name. But he wanted everybody to call him hi because his whole company loved him. Everybody at AT&T loved him because you just say hi and that took care of business. And he was very in tune with his employees. So I share that with you because I've learned at a young age to pay life forward that don't have a column fodder, right?

Yeah.

If you can help somebody out, you can help a peer out, you can help a client out that a good friend all of a sudden loses his job. Phil, do you know anybody? Boom, let me get it started for you. And not look for, you know, but at the same time, think in mind that if you do the right thing, the revenue will come. I'm not transactional. I'm that guy who builds the bigger opportunities and does the research. And I'll give you a case in point. I'm real big on the power of one. And the power of one is that one meeting that you said, that one guy would say, I wouldn't waste my time. Nothing ever happens there. Or you go to an event or you go to a summit or whatever it may be. It may be a meetup, but you meet that one person and that one person that you met, if you hadn't been there that day, that could change your life. And I did that with a group here in Chicago called Camp IT. And Camp IT is a summit and has been around for a long time. They've been doing their events online— or I'm sorry, in person up until the pandemic. And now they're online and he's had to pivot. as a business, and it's been successful for him. But I share that with you because if I hadn't gone to that one meeting, I wouldn't have met the CIO of Allstate. I wouldn't have met a lot of different folks. So it's, you know, I have a different way and a different outlook of thinking. I'm strategic. I utilize my network. I try to open doors, like I said, for other folks. So I'm just, I'm not that cookie cutter that you're starting to see a lot of out there.

And what is working for you to get into these accounts? Because you're selling to technical people who aren't the best at communicating, feel like if they want something, they'll call you.

Right. I think it's this, is that I learned this from— I've had 2 rodeos in my life, I call it. So on my first My first marriage, my ex-wife ran a rodeo company with her family down in Texas. And I lived in Texas for 10 years. I'm a city boy, right? So I didn't know about cowboy boots and big belt buckles and rodeos and all this, but they had a very successful rodeo company that was actually sponsored by Anheuser-Busch. And one thing she taught me and I learned from it, and I've used it to this day, is find something personal. Find some— show some interest in another individual versus let me just talk to you about speed, speed, speed, features, functionality, and do a show throw-up. It's, hey, you live in Texas, can you help me with this? And break down that barrier. Everybody knows it's business, but really make something personal. And I think that's been a very great learning lesson. It's like when I taught my little guy when he was 5 years old, he hated doing this, Brian. I said, when you meet someone new, I know you're only 5, you stick your hand out, you say your name and say nice to meet you, and you look them in the eye. And he turned 21 a few years ago and he goes, I want to tell you something, Dad. I go, what? He goes, I hated when you did that to me. Oh, I totally hated when you had me introduce myself to people like that. But now it pays off. People are like blown away that I can look them in the eye, that I don't look down like my other friends do. And now he's 25 years old and he's tearing it up in Fort Worth real estate right now. He went into real estate out of college and he's just, you know, real estate down there is just booming. But he says, I learned my people skills from you. You know, and that's it.

And today, I mean, there's the digital handshake as well, right?

Right.

When you use your philosophy of pay it forward like this— how did we meet, right?

Oh, exactly, exactly. You didn't—

I didn't pitch you, you didn't pitch me.

No, I— like I said earlier, is that I respect, admire the brand that you've built because that wasn't easy work and you put yourself out there and now you have this Huge following of some of the best sales and technology reps that you'll ever meet and business people in your life. So congratulations on that.

But have you been able to maintain the technical prowess? Because you sell some pretty deep stuff.

Yeah.

I know the DevOps space pretty well.

Well, here, I'll give you a case in point. Here's another great example. So a few— about a few years ago, I was dealing with the big insurance company in Illinois. And met with the CIO and he says, oh, I love everything you're talking about. We're, you know, we need to get caught up. We need to work on our digital transformation, business transformation. What you're sharing with me is great, but you know what? You vendors come in here and you don't understand my business. I said, but we've hit some hot buttons. He goes, absolutely. He goes, but you don't have any subject matter expertise for my vertical being claims and claims processing. I said, okay, you're right. I said, but We're invited back in. He goes, oh, no doubt. It's April. We're going to— you know how summer works in technology and business. Everybody takes their vacations, and then August and September, things blossom again. So in the meantime, in that summer, Brian, I went and I got my life and health insurance license during that time. I took the initiative so I could learn more about— I learned more about his business, but then I want to be able to talk and not name-drop, but share Apples to apples. And I came back in and we whiteboarded out with my sales engineer and he was blown away. He goes, how'd you learn all this? And I said, well, I went and got my life and health insurance license and P&C because I believe if you're sharing with me today where the insurance industry is and it's going to have to start catching up because there were no Geicos 20 years ago or e-insurance. So when I was 16, the Allstate guy showed up at my house, knocked on the door, signed me up. But now the 16-year-old has to pay for their car insurance, is going to go find it on their own. Right? And he was blown away, and we won the deal because of that, because he understood if I was going to take that time and effort to understand his business, I was going to be a real asset to him along with the company, um, to help with his business. So it was a nice deal.

Right. And I try and describe this as kind of the bridge between what you do and what they need. We talk about how great the product is and how great it will be once you get it and the outcome you'll get. But the person on the other end wants to hear it within the context of their world.

Correct.

They're not arguing with you. They're agreeing with you. It just puts on the list of great ideas.

Well, one of my— when I was younger in my first sales career, which, you know, when you're young, you want to do the right job and you want to impress your boss and make your number and everything else, but It was always that, well, we're looking at the competition and then, you know, your first or second sales job, you feel the sweat start rolling down your back, right? Well, not anymore! It's like, we're looking at the competition. I know about my competition. I learned about my competition. I don't believe in slinging mud but I will share fact and once they see you sweat on competition, then they get concerned but if you address it right at the— and I'd say, I'd be surprised if you didn't because the day of the one-line $250,000 signatures, long gone, right? Back in the day you could, but not anymore. Now it's a committee of 12 people. So you better have some pretty good emotional intelligence. You better not just focus on the champion or sponsor. You better focus on the developers or, you know, the users are gonna be using this and get to know the whole team of 12 like I did at OneAccount. Otherwise you're in trouble. So it's, you know—

And plus what competition means, because there's so many ways to skin the cat. Especially in your space, you can write scripts, you can get open source.

Oh yeah.

Consultants to do it, you can outsource it. There's a lot of ways to look at it as competition.

Well, and think of the world of open source. Everybody laughed at open source when it was first being, you know, being talked about. Now it's like, okay, it's accepted. And, you know, even the financial communities that would never touch it in the past are looking at it. Look at the cloud. Whoever thought the cloud would be where it is today? And it's changed the way we do business. But it's like, I was in a— when I was representing a low-code company in my first 2 months, I was asked to speak at a symposium, about 200 people. And I'm like, 2 months on board. Okay. I got this covered. Okay, cool. And I had a guy at the Q&A at the end. And I knew I had the audience, which is very cool because the majority of the audience was not looking at their cell phone because I did the research and the time and effort versus show up and throw up an education. I really put together some helpful information. And one guy rose his hand, he goes, I tried low-code 10 years ago and it didn't work. I go, isn't that beautiful? He goes, what do you mean? I go, look at this. And I hold up a Palm Pilot. I go, did you ever have one of these? He goes, yeah, I did, but now I got my smartphone. I go, exactly. I go, times have changed. I go, you know, T1 lines and all this technology and wireless didn't exist 10 years ago and now it does. So now's the time for you guys to take a look at low-code because why? All companies want the A-level, A-type engineer. They want the best. They want the best sales guy. They want the best leadership. Of course they do. There's not enough to go around, right? So you've got to find other ways to accelerate your digital transformation and time to market and rapid deployment and all those other buzzwords that you use that actually really work. And take the— you know, I— of the 3 of the 4 opportunities I closed in the last 15 months, they had already picked my other competitor. They'd picked my competitor and I was able to pull the rug out from underneath them and we won, which is pretty cool stuff. That was so rewarding when, you know, because you walk, it's like, well, just the questions alone, you felt you were column fodder. But we switched that around, we were able to win the deals.

And how far had they gotten as far as the—

One had already made the decision. But when he went in to get it approved, we worked with him in May and then we didn't hear anything back from him until September. Went for the approval and the executive said, well, who else did you look at? He goes, well, you know, he goes, no, no, no, go take the top 2. They wouldn't sign, you know, it's what a lot of execs will do today is, you know, they'll circle the magic quadrant in Gartner and they'll go pick those top 2. And they brought us back in and we found out what his true needs were. And focused in on those needs where my competition was talking about the latest things that were coming out in containers and microservices, which wasn't what they really needed. But they knew that their growth depended on making a change and making it right. And yeah, that was probably— that'll go down the top 3 as one of the most rewarding wins I've ever had in my career.

So let's talk about that. What motivates you more? Is it that win or that avoidance of losing?

That's a great question because one thing I've always said, and I really believe in mentoring junior reps or folks that are just coming on board, right? Call me anytime. How did you get to know all these people? And, you know, how did you do this? And is it all about winning, winning? I go, no, sometimes you got to go for the no. And a no is also winning because then you're not wasting your company's time and resource time or financial dollars. Go for the no, that's a win too. So I think it's a combination of both depending on the opportunity. If I have a chance—

If there's one that you can't go to sleep—

Yeah, I think it's winning the right opportunity and doing the right thing for the customer is really important to me.

And when you lose, how do you feel?

You know, I'm fortunate because my preparation— I typically, I'm out of the deal when I know I'm going to lose. Now, the one that hurt the most, there was one that— you're right, there's one that comes to mind.

Here we go.

It just happened. It just happened in the last 2 years. Yeah, we were, we were We were told that we won, but it came down to the point of price. And our competition, I'd beat them 3 out of 4 times when they thought they had won. And my name got out there and they realized, and they wanted this because they were also purchased by a large manufacturing company. This is a manufacturer and they wanted to get in the door and they dropped their price by half. And that's what we lost on. And the client said, instead of signing a 3-year deal with you, it's easier for me to cut my price in half and sign, which we think the competitor is fairly close, which they were at the time, that it's easiest for us. No one's going to lose their job if we go in for 1 year. And I go, well, what you're doing is you're not making a commitment. A commitment's 3 years. A science experiment is 1. He goes, for our first year, because this is all new to us and we're just getting off, we're automating spreadsheets. That kind of tells you how old the manufacturer was, automating spreadsheets. We'll take the chance for a year. So that one hurt. That one hurt a lot. But in my heart and in my mind, I knew that we did all the right things, but the price I didn't have control over. That was outside my swim lane. That was made the decision by the leadership.

Yeah. So, but you know, that hurts. It does hurt.

You know, I mean, I put major hours in there. I mean, I was on a plane all the time, but you know what though? I can always call them back up and walk back in the door. And who knows if they're going to knock on my door and go, you know, it's just, or if we see each other at an event, I mean, there are some wins there too, personal, personally. So.

And what do you see most salespeople doing wrong today? Because when they come to you, what, what's the big thing that maybe they're not asking for it, but if you could just, and it might hurt to tell them, Um, there are a lot of folks are too one-sided.

Yeah, too one-sided. It's what's in it for me, and if there's nothing in it for me, um, you know, and it's like, I can't tell you how many folks I've been references for over my lifetime, and you never hear from ever again, right? And then all of a sudden it hits the fan, and then your, your doorbell or your phone rings. Like, I really— and then it's a, it's panic.

Yeah.

Right. But it's— I think you got to have an open mind and get creative in today's world because it's changed so much. I miss the days of getting out there and meeting with folks. I think that's one of the biggest reasons most companies that are trying to bring in new business are struggling right now, not for land and expand, but for truly growing new business in the last year because everybody's working out of their home and And unless it's mission critical, companies aren't willing to make that step unless it's really necessary. And I think that you'll see a big change in the second half because I'm seeing that with some of my service partners that are seeing an uptick now on— but the last year was trying to just stay in business or what do we do? I had one company where for 2 weeks they focused, no one ever worked out of their home, 2 weeks was how do we get 500 people on Zoom? You know, elaborate on your question a little bit more. I just— we've become too transactional as a world. The management is looking at spreadsheets on a regular basis. Are you looking to build a business? Are you looking to make your quarterly number? And the customers, most of the customers today, especially in the Fortune 1000, been burnt. They don't get burnt anymore. There's no, no such thing as shelfware like it used to be. Remember, Brian, all the shelfware?

I remember shelfware.

Oh yeah. Or in some cases You know, half-baked software. No, there's due diligence, there's money on the line. That's not going to happen anymore. And customers are very conscious, they're— and they're smart, and they've got everything at their fingertips with the internet. They do their research. They don't— it's not the past.

Doesn't take any time anymore.

No, no. So they've done their calling.

Anybody, it's just like search, right?

So they'll go on Glassdoor and they'll do research on Glassdoor and they'll go, why do you have so many negative remarks about you? You know, it sounds like you have a huge turnover, right? It's like, whoa, okay, that's a first for me.

So, you know, but I think it trails back to your original point about paying it forward. The key part about paying it forward is you have to do it before you need it.

Thank you. Absolutely. That's the difference. Yeah, no doubt about it.

Because everyone does it when they need it.

Right.

But having that deposit in all these bank accounts, then when you need it, they get it back. Because I've done the reference thing too, and it's like after 3 and I don't get anything in return, or I don't get any help.

Yeah. And I could, especially for some of what you've built, which is even more important because there's a huge trust factor for what you provide. Yeah, there's a lot of humor to it. There's a lot of laughter and there's a tremendous amount of truth that you get through to folks. So you hit it right on the head. It's the due diligence of investing upfront. That means learning about the company, reading the 401 or the 10-Ks, excuse me, and 10-Qs and all that, and doing your research beforehand. Or like I did with the insurance example I gave you before, make the investment. One thing I think has been overkill though in today's world is I've taken every sales methodology known to man, right? All of them. And that's why I laugh about some of the stuff that you bring up. You know, now it's not MEDIC anymore, it's MEDIPIC. We got to add a couple, you know, another one in there. Um, by the way, you know, and I've been doing this long enough to know who's your economic buyer and champions. I get all that. Okay, cool. But all of a sudden you're writing a book and you're on Salesforce every day, and I understand it's a necessary evil. But 8 is—

well, the problem is that all of it's good, right? But there's too much good and not enough execution, right? You know, because you could read books about chess all day, right?

Right.

You learn by playing, right?

Well, and I think that's where I miss the fact of meeting people in person, because I know the big 2 buzzwords today are the buzzline is emotional intelligence, right?

Yeah.

That's like the big book. Oh, how do I become emotionally intelligent? So I've been that way since I was a kid, you know, knocking on people's doors and selling, you know, subscriptions to newspapers and all that kind of stuff. That it doesn't start overnight. It's got to be in your DNA and you got to be willing to do it. And I do believe in it because you can, you know, I'll walk in with a junior rep and when I was doing some sales management They go, how'd you see all that? I go, I just read the room. You know, I could tell you who the technical guys who were our friends, who weren't on our side. I go, God gave you 2 ears to listen and most people don't do that. Right. I said, when you're in sales, sit back, ask an open-ended question and let them talk. And that's how it— with the PowerPoint presentations we do today, and I don't like death by PowerPoint. I have 4 or 5 slides that I utilize and that's it. But get them talking first. Everybody wants to talk about themselves. Everybody wants to talk about their business first. Right? Not how you're the leader in your industry. You have 20 million homes. Oh yeah, everyone wants to hear that. Look at our buildings. Yeah, yeah, look at— isn't that a pretty PowerPoint? And, you know, my marketing team did this. No, it's— let's talk about what we can do for you.

Cool. Hey, Phil, I really appreciate your time. This is a great conversation. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

Sure, they can catch me on my LinkedIn profile, and I have a tie. It's not a clip-on in that picture, so I have my tie on. And I miss dressing up, by the way, so I dressed up for you today.

I appreciate it.

And then, and then they, then they can also contact me in my personal email at pasmithcr@gmail.com. So that's P-A Smith, C as in cat, R as in Robert, at gmail.com. But I'm humbled, honored. Thank you from Look at me as a professional. It's an asset to you and what you're doing, and I hope that we can meet in person in the near future when we can do that again.

When I did consulting with companies, the most common thing I saw wrong was that they were doing like paid proof of concepts. And in some cases, this can work. I'm not 100% against it, but if it's not working It might be a signal because it slows down the deal. They were getting a tiny little amount of money, uh, in that money itself was a sales process. I had to go through the whole sales approval process, so it took a long time. And it did help in that the skin was in the game, but it also turned into be a A gate that often didn't close. And then all this time went by, they didn't get both the money nor the trial was taking place. And I worked for a company like that. They wanted me to get all these trials paid for. And I'm like, you realize we have almost no inbound leads. I have an engineer who's sitting around most of the time. We'd be lucky to get 2 or 3 demos a week, uh, and the rest of the time he was just, you know, sitting around. And I, I just did it under the radar. I basically— we would go on site and do a trial as soon as we could. Uh, we'd be on site as often as we could on the deals that were closable. This wasn't just anybody. And it wasn't anybody who asked. It was the people where the product fit. They had a need. There was some urgency. There was, you know, I knew they could afford it. So it wasn't just to be busy. It was about engaging with the client. And what we found was an insane amount of business. And early in my career, when I was an engineer, when I was the pre-sales, before pre-sales people existed, they just had engineers. And one summer, you know, summers were slow. So I just went to this company, a client. They had bought one of our products. It should have been a huge deal. And they weren't using the product. So I just showed up and I just said, hey, can I have a badge so I can come in? Yeah, sure. Yeah, they get me a badge and there was a whole room just dedicated to our product, but nobody was in there. I turned the lights on, I got it up and working, and people would stop by and say, what are you doing here? And I explained and they go, yeah, we've been thinking about using that. I go, what are you running into? And basically I was essentially tech sales guy on site. And by the end of the summer, I had the whole project working on our equipment. Now, would that have happened otherwise? I doubt it. It doesn't happen in a meeting. It doesn't— you go have a great meeting and then what ends up happening is people hit a hiccup and they stop and they go back to their old way. Their old way may be 10 times harder, but it's the way they know. And don't we see this all the time when you get a new product or you hear about a new way of doing things? You might try it. And maybe it connects. But if somebody helped you do it, I'm sure you see this all the time on your phone with different apps. You know, someone says it's great, but it doesn't connect with you. It's bridging where you are to where that product can get you. That's our job as a sales team. And that's a give. And these gives Are what keeps people engaged. When you hear somebody take something, when you see somebody begging on the street, you almost want to give, but you're like, oh, I don't want to interact with the person. But remember what the— maybe you won't remember the Hare Krishnas, but you probably see it in the movies like Airplane. They would give a little daisy to people, which caused the law of reciprocation. Did you want the daisy? Maybe you did. I never wanted a daisy, but they gave you something, and so you feel obligated to give them money. Now, you didn't want to give them money regardless. They just not— didn't connect with them, whatever. That wasn't a spontaneous desire to give, but they gave something to you. It is these tiny little interactions with people That bring a bond to us. Now, what I teach in the course is how people want to do this and how do you integrate it into your process to start conversations and get meetings to win large complex deals. And, you know, it was crazy. I was interviewing somebody the other day and this person came highly recommended, but was falling into the classic traps of the complex sale. And I never, you know, point people to the course after I interview them because I never want anyone to feel like it's a bait and switch. I want to promote them. And this person was very articulate, is going to be a great salesperson once they figure this out. And the person had a coach. So, but I just I'm never surprised at the people with such deep and, you know, decades of sales experience who do not understand how complex sales work. So you can either do it through trial and error, or you can learn the smart way. You could take a course and figure it out. And the give that I give to you is You get one-on-ones, which are 30-minute Zoom calls with me. There's no set number of them, as many as you can book. And then there's office hours, an hour meetup every other Friday. They're all recorded and put in the course. So it now, after 3 years, has the most content of any course out there. And nobody teaches this stuff. Nobody, you know, to learn it, You have to have done it for a long time and have wanted to win and find the distinctions. It's not about going top-down or bottom-up. It's about how companies buy and how to give them the artifacts that they need to close the deals. You still got to do the work though. It's not this 2-day thing where you just take it, now you know it. It's a skill, and with a skill that's a performance, you know, and I keep harping on that, but people still don't get it. And people think it's comfortable just knowing it. Think of all the things you know, but then when you do them, eh, not perfect, could use a little polish. That's what this performance of the skill is. Too many people focus on the knowledge that develops into a skill, and no one cares about the performance. They assume since you know it that you perform it well. Think about everybody who does a performance. Have you ever gotten on a plane? What are they doing before they take off? They know how to fly a plane. They're checking every little thing. They're looking over their flight plan. They're anticipating what's going to go on. And sales, especially in the complex sale, the time to be doing this is before you make the move. Think about any game that you play. Once you make the move, you've made it. You know, and today you can take it back when you're playing against the computer, but you can't take it back in real life. You can try and redo and make up for it, but it doesn't work out that well. So go to b2brevenue.com before the prices go up. Check out the courses. I've got a frequently asked questions video. I am available for some 15-minute calls, but most of them are booked up. If you have additional questions after you watch the frequently asked questions video, Feel free to send me an email. All the contact information is in the show notes as well as on my LinkedIn profile and on the website b2brevenue.com. Hey, if you see my content on LinkedIn, how about a little give to your friendly podcaster here? Give it a little like, a little comment, a little share. I really appreciate that much more than even a personal note because the personal note is sweet and I like it. But it doesn't tell the world and your followers about it. That's the only problem. Thanks. I'll see you next time.