HERE IS HOW THE SMARTEST SALESPEOPLE SELL

Hey, before we get started, I wanted to share a great podcast player that I found. Uh, no association with me, uh, not a sponsor or anything, but you might want to check it out. It has a really great feature of being able to take notes on what you're hearing in the podcast instead of sending me an email asking me to reference the notes for you. Uh, it's called Air. Uh, with 2 Rs, so A-I-R-R. And it also integrates in with Notion if you happen to be a Notion user. So just check that out if you're a podcast listener. It also, uh, gets my feed immediately, unlike the new Apple Podcast player, which takes a couple of hours for it to read the feed. I'm sure they'll fix it, but But if you haven't upgraded to iOS 14, you might want to wait if you're an Apple Podcast app user until they figure it out. Before we also get into the interview, make sure you're checking out our friends over at Covideo. Video email is a great way to share things, and it kind of touches on our topic today, which is creativity. We tend to sit in the, the rep box, in the box of, I sell something, you buy something. Let me pitch it to you. Let me talk about me or talk about you. How about if we were a little bit more creative in building our ecosystem? And this is something that takes time. I understand the payoff typically is not immediate. So, we tend not to do it because we're crammed with current priorities. But the problem is the current priorities are always going to be there. And then, your current priorities were future priorities yesterday. So, one of the ways that we can become great at selling is first being creative, thinking outside of the rep box, outside of what we're told to do. And how we're told to do it and be able to connect with people before we need to sell something to them. Connect with them because they are in our ecosystem— partners, potential clients, other vendors that come in before us preferably or adjacent to us that sell to the same accounts that we can help each other out, recruiters. This was a superpower that I had at one of my companies. I had a consulting company that I would plug into every prospect. And guess what? They would pull my product in because my product fit what they did. And nothing sneaky or underhanded about it. It was just an ecosystem, a supply chain, and we're part of it. We tend to think that we're just autonomous and You know, that we're all competing for the same budget. Well, I gotta tell you, money is not the obstacle. We always think it is. We always think it's the main obstacle or the sole obstacle. Typically, it's change and prioritization. So let's get into this interview. I'll sum it up at the end and give everybody an update on the course. If you're in the courses, make sure you're checking out the office hours. We had a fantastic one yesterday. A lot of talk about getting those conversations started with complete strangers, success stories, and it's great to hear other people share what's working for them and how it's working for them and why it's working for them. Here we go. Hey, Neil, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. I definitely Follow the podcast and following your social media. So it's exciting. But, uh, yeah, my background, I was, I was born into sales, so to speak.

Yeah, that must have been uncomfortable.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I was, uh, so my parents are both in real estate, and as young as I can remember, my mom used to actually have these events. So she was a realtor, she invited all of her clients every year, and essentially I was working the room and I didn't even know what it meant, right? They were like, oh, your mom's amazing. I was like, she's the best. And so, I was in that. I was, as a kid, I was already competitive. In Little League, I was selling raffle tickets and always trying to win and winning awards every year. I got to college, I sold meal plans. And then, I got a job with a company in real estate that said, we'll pay you commissions if you can help us rent out all these houses. So, I did that.

Yeah.

Got into real estate out of college and then, when the market tanked in real estate, A buddy of mine said, hey, if you know software, if you know sales, learning software is easy, you should really get into technology sales. So I transitioned and been selling cybersecurity ever since for going on about 14 years.

So you like it, huh?

Oh yeah, it worked out.

Cool. And what do you like about sales?

So, you know, I'm a people's person, to quote Office Space, right? You know, I always like working with people. It's— I can't sit here by myself. That's why COVID's been rough. So I've made the best of having, you know, a lot of Zoom meetings, Zoom lunches, Zoom happy hours, all that stuff. But it's— I am definitely one of those people that's a pack animal that likes to be with people.

Like the variety, like being out in the field? Is that—

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm definitely— I'm a social creature by nature, right? I mean, definitely, that's how I live.

Cool. And how did you learn the security stuff?

So actually, it was funny. So I was very fortunate. The first company I worked for was run by engineers. They were not salespeople. They were very metrics-driven. It was how many calls have you made? How many meetings did you set up? How many made contacts was it? I mean, it was— everything was metrics-driven. So what happened was when I got there, there were all these trainings you had to go through. There was, you know, they sent us to Dale Carnegie for the sales side. Then they were like, sit down with our engineers and you're gonna have to present this back to the engineers. And so, you know, it's when you're young and you're, call it naive, and you don't know that the world is different. It was the right place to learn because I didn't know that wasn't normal. And so I got a chance to learn everything. I mean, they were like, tell us the 7 layers of the network. I was like, well, what's a network? I know a lot of people. Like, no, no, no, the network on the computer. I was like, oh, okay. So now it's, you know, I started that naive and then all of a sudden I started learning the technology very quickly. And the sales side came naturally and it just, it just worked out.

Yeah, because it's a lot to learn, right? A lot of acronyms.

I mean, I'm still learning every day. It's not like it's something that anybody ever masters to a point where they know everything.

And what do you think separates you as a salesperson?

So actually, I think, you know, going back to the social creature, right? One of the things that early in my career happened, a buddy of mine was working for this software company and he said, this place is going to change the world. You got to come work here. And so he got me an interview and I was like, this, this is awesome. It was supposed to be an hour long and went for 2 and a half hours. I was like, they're going to hand me the job. And they asked me the question, how many accounts can you walk us into tomorrow? And I said, I'll get you any account you want. They said, no, I don't think you understand. Like, we have a 6-month ramp here. Our sales cycles are 6 months. And if you don't have relationships to walk us into today, you're not going to be here in 6 months. You're not doing me favors. You're not doing— you're not doing yourself any favors. We can't hire you. And I was like, oh my God, what do I do? So then I overcompensated and I spent a lot of time building relationships with decision makers to the point where I've actually built out, you know, I sell cybersecurity. So CISOs are the decision makers, Chief Information Security Officers. And I built out a CISO roundtable that I've been doing monthly for years. And so now I have direct access to a ton of decision makers from overcompensating from losing a job.

Well, let's talk about that because I like that idea. Because I sold cybersecurity as well.

Yeah.

And what worked for me, at least then, was user groups of the product they bought before they bought mine.

Oh, there you go. I like that. Yeah.

So it wasn't competitive. So there was no product overlap. And they were always looking for guest speakers, somebody to entertain the audience or something new.

Yeah.

And The people there were going to be the people, exact people I wanted to talk to. So how'd you come up with this idea? Did it already exist or was it all yours?

So I took a bunch of other ideas and made it my own. You know, they say plagiarism is copying.

It was someone else's idea until I did it.

Yeah, it was. I researched it a lot. Yeah, so it started. So there was a— we do a lot of business with what we call resellers. So just think partners, consulting companies. And I saw one where he was doing a steakhouse every month and he was getting 60 to 70 people to show up. And I was like, holy cow. And he charged a lot of money for these things. And I was like, this is crazy. And then I had a buddy of mine that said he was in Texas and he started going to a barbecue that was like, I don't know, top 3 in Texas, which may as well be top 3 in the world because Texas barbecue is like, it's what they're known for.

Yeah.

Um, and so he was just doing a biweekly thing where he's like, I'll stand in line because it's 2 hours long. You guys show up, I'll pay for lunch, and we'll just chat. And he was getting 10 to 20 people to show up. So I, I took both of those, I married those together and said, well, you know, what if I grab a couple people I do know? Because at that point, I knew a couple decision makers. And I said, hey guys, let's, let's just do a monthly lunch. And they were like, all right, that sounds cool. And I was like, you know, it's— I'm not putting on my sales hat. It's education for me. It's a chance for you guys to talk about the things you want to talk about. And I'll pick up the tab. And And they were like, all right, cool. So it started out with 6 of us. And then, you know, they liked it so much, then it was 8, then it was 10, then it was 20, then it was 30, then it was 40. And so it's, it's grown and I've continued to do it. And I think the key to the whole thing is that it's never been about me. It's always been about them. And so what we do is I send an email a week before and say, hey, send me your questions, whatever you want to talk about, and I moderate the discussion. And essentially let the leaders talk to each other. And then they're grateful because I can introduce them to their peers. If they say, I've got this project and it's not related to me, I could say, hey, Bill was working on that too, I should make an introduction. And so it's worked out and it's been— we'll call it dumb luck, right? I came into it for the education. I didn't realize I'd become like the world's greatest connector, right?

Well, yeah, that's it. You're a connector, kind of in Malcolm Gladwell's Tipping Point.

Yep. Metaphor.

And I think the best salespeople are like that. Too many salespeople look at, if there's not a deal now, go away.

Yeah.

And that's kind of short-sighted.

I had a manager, he was not a people's person, hired me, and he was a good guy, but he was very technical, not really a sales guy. And the one piece of advice I'll never forget is he said, Everybody has value. You just have to figure out what it is.

Right.

I think that's very true, is that it doesn't matter if there's a deal today or not. They may know somebody. I mean, hell, maybe you like the same music and they introduce you to a, you know, a new group or something, but everybody's got value somewhere.

And that's what people don't get about, uh, things like LinkedIn and social media.

Oh yeah.

It's not about posting your crap. It's about connecting with other people.

Yeah. Yeah.

And just because they're not buying today doesn't mean they can't help you find somebody who is.

Well, and that's why I love your videos. It's funny. So, I'm a big creative thinker. Anything you can do that's different. And podcasts are awesome, but not many people are spending an hour listening to them. So, your bite-sized videos are perfect because I'm in between meetings, I pop on and I'm like, oh, this is cool. And you listen for a minute and then it gives you the, you know, it's the hook of, okay, I want to hear more. Yeah, I love that idea. And I think those are, those are brilliant for that reason.

Well, that's it. People go, why do you do it? And it's like, you know, I'm walking anyway, right? You know, I'm thinking about sales. That's my bag. That's what I do for a career. And it's like, how do you put a little nugget into a minute and a half video? Yeah, yeah, it's 100% of a give. Yeah, I don't pitch a thing in any of the videos.

Yeah.

And if you get something out of it, great. You still get haters, but that's life, right?

Yeah, that is. Yeah. They say if no one, if no one's, uh, mad at you, no one hates you, you're just not working hard enough, right? So, you know.

And how do you— how have you gotten support for this from your company before it worked?

Well, it's funny. So, so the way before it worked, you know, I mean, first of all, so I sell pretty expensive software, so they're gonna spend money. I mean, it's, it's, you know, any software, especially cybersecurity, you're typically looking at 6 figures. It's just, it's just life. And so they know they've got to spend money. So you don't get a whole lot of people questioning the money you're spending. And the lunches were a couple hundred bucks. I mean, that's 6 people, I was going to a local restaurant, I wasn't taking them to like—

Rooftop cocktails or anything. Yeah.

Yeah, I was saying, let's grab lunch at a really cool local restaurant with local food. And so, you know, they, everybody went and it worked. And then as it got bigger, Before COVID and we were doing this in person, I had a bunch of people approach me like, hey, I'll pay for this. And so I handpicked somebody that I work well with. And I said, okay, I'll let you pay for this. And so basically, every month, you know, we were doing it at a country club, and they were picking up lunch, and everybody enjoyed it. And it worked out for everybody because now they had access. I was able to do this without anybody looking over my shoulder saying, you know, why haven't all 30 of these people bought our product yet? And you just keep taking them out to lunch, right? And No one's asked me any of that. And then I've transitioned from company to company by still doing this. And it's— I've never had an issue, but I did try to pull away from the expense aspect of it by letting others pay for it because I built something of value.

And how do you keep them away from it turning into a sales presentation?

So I told them upfront that that's the deal. This isn't sales. Like, here's—

Right. But they're kind of like pre-programmed though, right?

Well, but I've coached them on from the beginning of like, here's what I expect. And they were pretty good about But I, I don't switch vendors. It's not like I switch. It's the same people that come every time, so they know. And I basically said, you know, if you provide value, people take a call, right? Because it's— somebody told me there's 8,000 cybersecurity vendors out there. And I remember talking to a CISO.

Is that all?

Yeah, exactly right. That's— that was yesterday's count. Today is double that. So it's— so yeah, so, uh, so one of the CISOs said, imagine if I took 10 to 30 minutes every day that everyone's asking for and met with them I'd never do my job.

Right.

And so if you can do something of value, you get to be one of those, you know, division of that where people will actually take your meetings because it's, oh, Neil brings value to me, let's meet with Neil. And so when I explain that, I don't think I've had any issues where they bring up product. And I even start with a joke, you know, I work for Anomali, they pay my bills. If you're thinking about, you know, cybersecurity threat intelligence, let me know. And then I'll get into the, now let's talk about what you want to talk, and everybody chuckles and They'll even make jokes about me being the sales guy in the room, but everybody respects me, or at least pretends to, and they continue to take my calls. So I appreciate it.

And outside of this circle, what separates you? Because I think that's a great idea.

I would say creativity. I'm big on doing the things others don't. I think there's multiple mediums that you have to approach with, right? So, you know, you hear all this stuff like cold calling's dead, relationships dead, whatever the buzzword is of the day. But if you take all of them, One of them is going to work, right? One works one month, one works the next. I like direct mailers. I think that's always been effective. But instead of sending something directly to the leader, send something to their admin, like, you know, a coffee cup that says, you make the magic happen, and then ask her for a place in the calendar or him for a place. And I think doing creative things that are different as opposed to the, you know, the insanity of the same thing over and over again, I think that's always separated me. And the other thing is, according to Amazon, I read 51 books last year, which means I was lazy for one week. So I'm always trying to educate myself. I think that separates me too.

Because I think the creativity is critical because you don't see much of that. Everybody wants to be told the magic cadence.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's like, no, because we're dealing with people.

And that's it. It's the human element. I agree.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What are some of the other things that you've learned along the way that you wish you knew When you got out of college?

I would say that the mistake I've made in my career, which I don't know if I'd call it a mistake because I've learned from it, is that I've switched companies too quickly many times. You know, somebody will say, we're going to pay you so much more money, come to this company. And, you know, early on in your career, like, someone wants to pay me that? And, you know, it's all of a sudden it's like, holy cow. And so, you know, the competitor wants to pay more. And so I would say there's some places I probably could have stuck around longer and made more money. I've switched companies many times. I'm happy where I'm at now, which is a good thing. But it's— I think I didn't move up the chain and I ended up deciding I wanted to stay a sales rep. And I may get into management one day, but it's— I had a short stint in management, but I think because of my short stays, it was never even an option. It wasn't like, oh, well, keep working your tail off and you're gonna go up the chain and run a team. It was like, oh man, this guy's crushing it. And then all of a sudden, oh, he just left. He's got another opportunity. So I think if I could go back, I would convince myself to stick these things out a little bit longer instead of jumping for something that looks a little greener.

And I think we all either make that mistake or we don't know when to leave.

Yeah.

Or when to stay.

Yeah. Yeah.

What have you learned along that line?

So I think every company is flawed, I think is what I've learned along the way. Really?

You haven't found the perfect one yet?

Yeah. Well, it's close. It's out. Just kidding. But it's, I think Initially, I was bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, and I thought that I was going to find the perfect place. And then every time I get there, you hit either the executives aren't— they're not executing the vision that you dreamed the company was going to do. If they just turn left, we'd crush it, but they're turning right. Or you find a manager and you're like, man, this guy's a pain in the neck. And I've got some stories about that too. But, you know, it's— you leave for the wrong reasons because one thing Makes you angry and then you're like, oh man, and I'm not even an emotional guy, so I can only imagine how angry other people are. But I think those are the things that, that I would, would have changed was just not jumping so quickly.

Well, I think a lot of people jump, like when they get the new comp plan is the classic one. Yeah. Where you go from crushing it to now, you know, from 15% to 3%.

Yeah.

And that you go through commission withdrawal.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

And then someone calls. Well, what's most important to you when you look at a company?

Product. I want to make sure that the product's relevant. I care more than anything else that what I'm selling, because for me, being a relationship guy or at least a self-proclaimed one, I don't want to be, you know, I jokingly say I don't want to be the guy at the grocery store that you see me in the frozen food aisle and you turn and run. Like, you know, if you live in my neighborhood, I want to make sure that you're not running away from Neal. And so I want to make sure the products I sell stand up for what I say they do so that nobody calls me a liar or says, what did you do to me?

And have you found a way of determining that before you're 6 months into it?

Yes. So actually what I do first is market research, right? I reach out to existing customers and say, what do you think about the product? Now that I've established myself and I have some good relationships, when I interviewed for jobs, I would actually take one of these security leaders and say, hey, I want you to check this product out with me, which both improves your interview process because like, holy cow, this guy's already bringing in a lead for us. And then secondly, it helps you out because it's— you've got a guy you trust that's taking a look at it and saying, hey, this really seems like something cool that, that, you know, I think you should be digging into. And then I, I have some more technical people myself take a look, and I look at market share, and, and I look at the opportunity. I, I like working for the underdogs. I like working for the, the startups. But I want to know that there's enough room to grow in that space versus, you know, I don't want to go sell against Amazon, right? It's, you know, whoever it is that owns the market or whatever it is.

Well, that's the problem with security is that you got the, what, 3,000, did you say, or 8,000?

8,000.

8,000. So there's always going to be overlap.

Oh yeah.

Right. And then the keywords are always overused. Firewall, encryption, whatever it is.

Yep.

So when you're talking to somebody, it takes a long time to drill down on how it's different.

Oh yeah, yeah. Well, and I think, you know, somebody put it really well for me the other day, is that integration matters more than innovation. And I think because, because the point that there's so many products in this space, I think when you start to look at how does it integrate with my ecosystem, the example used was if I own an iPhone and I've got a Mac, it's very unlikely I'm gonna go buy things related to Windows. And so if you can buy things that relate to their ecosystem, and I think that's it, is if a product's claiming to change the world, you then start to ask, well, what do you integrate with, right? What are these— these are the major systems people are using. How do you tie into that and understand the story as opposed to we're gonna change the world because they've been doing it wrong? That's probably not gonna resonate as well as we're gonna change the world because they're so close.

And how about as far as the manager? Because I usually tell people, the manager is really critical because they don't go— great managers don't go to crummy companies.

Yeah. And I think one of the ways I judge a manager is how long, how many people come with them along the journey. When they bring a couple people with them. I've had more bad managers than good. And maybe that's just a bias. But that's normal. I like my current one. So that's a good situation. I like my current one a lot. He complements me in a lot of ways. He has strengths that I don't have, and I like to think I have some he doesn't have. And so I have a good manager, but I don't put as much credence in management, probably because so many bad experiences. The only thing I care about is— I had one manager call me. So when my oldest daughter— and I have 3 kids— my oldest daughter was maybe a year or 2 old, I messed something up at Salesforce. I think instead of putting like $100,000, I put $1 million. And, you know, there's a certain dollar amount that Triggers every manager under the sun where it's like, oh, we've got this million-dollar deal, everybody's got to call about this. So he calls me up and it was just a 4-letter tirade, you know, just unbelievable. And I'm sitting there trying to feed my daughter, it's 6 o'clock my time, he's based in, you know, the West Coast, and he starts screaming at me. And I said, man, I said, I apologize, I promise I'm going to fix this. So can we talk about it in a minute, you know, or in the morning? I'm busy feeding my daughter. I get an email like 10 minutes later titled, what was it, Job Focus. He said, you're so busy changing diapers, you're not focused on your job. And he's like, starting tomorrow, you're no longer a remote employee, because I worked in my house forever. You'll be working in an office that's 45 minutes from your house, going every day. And so I was there for another 2 months. I mean, I was like, I'm not sticking around for this. So I look for those things. Like, if my manager can be the worst that ever lived, but if I like them, I'll work for them because I feel like I can be effective. If they add value, even better. But I care more about the people.

If they had found—

well, that's it.

I think a lot of people, when they get into management, they forget what their objective is. It's not to administrate what's going on. Yeah, it's to increase revenue.

Yeah.

And they don't, they don't, they don't increase revenue themselves. They have to work with the team.

Yeah. And a lot of them are so focused on increasing deal size as opposed to as opposed to actually adding value. And it's crazy. And I'm not saying that's wrong because I think there is merit to that, but that shouldn't be your only job. That shouldn't be the only thing that you're doing is saying, well, you just can't negotiate, so I gotta jump in here. There's gotta be more to it. So, to answer your question about management, I care more that I get along with the personality. And then, like I said, if they add value— it used to be I was looking for a mentor everywhere I could look. I was like, man, teach me something. And then, I kind of gave up on that. I found mentors externally. I have one now That's not even in sales. And the amount of things I talk to him once a week, the amount of things I learned from this guy who's a security leader, just about business, about life, about just how to operate, is unreal. So if you look for mentors in the right place, you'll find them. But don't always assume it's gonna be your manager.

That's a great point, because I think a lot of people look for that, or just assume that since they're in charge, they know what they're doing.

Yeah. And that's a mistake. Yeah, that's absolutely a mistake. Yeah.

What have been the signals that it's a great company? I mean, have, have you worked with headhunters? Do you typically follow other people? What are the signals that it's the right time to jump to another company?

So I'm actually very proactive. I've actually looked. So again, I'll go back to my contacts that are outside of sales and I'll say, hey, what is the coolest thing that you've seen lately? And they'll say, oh, we're looking at these cool, you know, doohickeys. And I'm like, all right, well, how many doohickeys are in the market? And then I start to look and say, well, who's in that space that's really interesting? And then I'll start to look at the people and say, is it somewhere I can work? But I've been pro— there's been some companies like the one I mentioned where I was like, I have to get out of. And it took me 2 months to get out of there. And the first thing I did was reach out to some people I knew and say, what's cool out there? And then I reached out to the company and I said, I don't know if you have a position or not, said, but, you know, I think your product's awesome. I think I can add some value. Can we talk? And it just so happened that the local rep was being promoted to management and he's like, I need to backfill. I haven't even opened the position yet. Let's talk.

Yeah.

And I ended up getting the job and I was there for 2 and a half years and did really well and really liked it. They changed CEOs and every executive under the sun, which is why I left that company. But when I got there, it was really cool. But I think the science for me is, again, it goes back to, is the technology relevant? Is it something that You know, no one's gonna hive me in the frozen food aisle, right?

But there's also like the element of comp land where if you get in a company, they had a great last year, so this year's got to be 2 or 3 times what last year was.

Yeah.

And it just doesn't match what the market is. They're kind of ahead of the market.

That matters. Yeah, that matters. Yeah, I would even say, I mean, so I, I tend to work in the smaller companies, so I end up with bigger territories, right? I'm not the, uh, You know, I was the road warrior for a while before all this happened. I like being home because I like being with my kids, my family, but if there's money, I'm willing to go a couple days a week to travel for it. And, um, so I think the comp plans are generally the same. I think the key is the upside is one is what does the territory look like? I don't want 10 accounts. There's a lot of people really good with that. I don't want to be that guy.

Yeah.

And so, so I like having 3 states, 4 states, 5 states, whatever it is. And I want to know how relevant it is to that market. And then I want to know the comp plan of the potential. Is my quota going to be $5 or $500 million? And what is your product's average sale price? How am I going to get there? And so looking at those things, I think make a big difference, but it's relevancy matters, but comp plan definitely matters too.

And what do you see most salespeople doing wrong? I'm sure you've had a lot of experience, good and bad.

I've seen, I think, so there's a couple of things. So one, I am now again admitting bias here. Like, I think the lone wolf, I think, is going to struggle when there's— and I don't mean that from a rep perspective, but I mean that from if you don't use the resources inside your company and you just assume you know everything. I think a lot of those guys will struggle. You don't have to be friends with every rep in the company, but you need to know who the right resources are because there's always experts in your company you can leverage. And, you know, it's— so when a comedian goes on stage, there's somebody that introduces them. When a Keynote speaker goes on stage, someone introduces them, you're the person introducing them. So you're introducing the expert. If you're assuming you're the expert, you've already lost credibility. So it's being able to understand the resources that are in your company and using those and playing that connector again of, of who can I introduce you to that's going to help you. And I see a lot of people that try to take on too much weight on their own shoulders and assume they're going to do it on their own. And I think those people fail.

Oh, there's the people that try and sell top down versus bottom up. And, you know, each product's different and each market and account is different. Do you do bottom-up or top-down, or does it depend?

So I would say I do more top-down, but that's only because where I'm at in my career. I don't think there's anything wrong with bottom-up. I think the way it was put to me by one of these leaders is that— so 2 things. One is that if you were going to sell a car to a kid, the 16-year-old is probably the one that wants to buy the car and he needs the car. But who's really making the decision? So if you— if he tells you how much he's got, he's going to say, I've got $1,000 in my bank. But if you talk to the parents, they're going to say, oh, well, we've saved up $4,000 for this car, and we could— and whatever it is, right? He's getting a used car that's a little bit nicer, a little bit more money. So if you start at the bottom, you have a limited budget to work from with a big need. If you start at the top, you've got a budget that's willing to solve problems that may not have the same level of need, but they'll introduce those that do. And if you can marry the two, it's much easier to do from the top to the bottom, in my opinion.

And are you always finding the CISO is kind of— I hate the word decision maker because there's so many decisions.

Yeah.

You know, typically—

Not always the decision maker.

No, right. They're involved.

Yeah, well, and that's why you ask, right? I mean, the question is, when you've bought software like this in the past, what did the process look like? And if the answer is, well, my CISO needs to sign off and he's got authority, then that's probably your guy. If the answer is, we've got a technology committee of these 5 groups and they're all going to have a say. Great. Well, how do we meet with them to make sure that we're meeting all their needs? Right. Because it's— we'll make you look like the superstar, but you may have different criteria than they have. Let me help you, you know, cross those boxes and help you do what you need to do. But it's not always— I mean, CISO is a generic term for leader in my mind. I use the words— I overuse the word, but it's—

I think everybody does.

I mean, security is funny too, because CISOs sometimes are only responsible for governance, not products, and then IT operations runs it. So it depends on the company.

Yeah, sometimes they're kind of, you know, almost an oversight role versus a line responsible.

Yep, yep. So I just use that as a generic term because it's easier than explaining every time. It's either leader or CISO, but it really is just whoever controls the— whoever has the P&L, that's who's going to control it.

And what is in your way of really crushing it? What, either skill or what happens in the market?

Um, that's a good question. Uh, I would say, I mean, there's been a few different things, right? There's been times where I got a little bit cocky and said, holy cow, I hit 200% of my number last year. And then I realized I spent not enough time prospecting and suddenly the pipeline's dry. Or there's been times where, you know, I didn't understand the product as well as I thought I did. And next thing I know, I feel like I'm selling the same thing as everybody else. And it's— I mean, that's why I believe so much in education, is understand your own gaps and figure out how to fill those. But I think there's, there's a lot of things. I would say last year, uh, the thing that got in my way was that I was banking on some big deals, and then when, when the market turned, all of a sudden these companies like, we're freezing our budgets. And so I didn't have nearly as big of a year as I thought. The year before was the biggest year I've ever had financially. And then last year was, we'll call it mediocre. But after that, it's like, you know, you make a ton of money, doesn't matter what you make the next year, it's not going to feel like much.

And that's it. Because in the technology space, and certainly in the security space, you can get stuck in the education versus the buying.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Because, you know, like those lunches, they're great. But they're really relationship building. And if something sticks, great.

Well, so, so what those do for me, and that's, that's a really good point. What those do for me is they give me access to other decision makers. So when, when somebody else I hear has a project, I don't have to run around and scramble and say, how do I meet this person? I just look on LinkedIn and say, oh, look, Dave's connected to this guy. Let me ask Dave to make an introduction. And suddenly I'm in the door, or at least hearing back, they've already thought about you and you're just not gonna have a chance. I don't have to waste time there.

Because you must see other reps, you know, at the end of the year, they were busy working 60, 70 hours a week, but they're 60 to 80% of their number.

Yep.

Where they're spending a lot of time educating the market for people that will buy someday, but not this day.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, we're all guilty of it at some level, right? It's—

Well, it's easy. It's a trap, right?

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, I think, what do they say? It's, it's being busy doesn't always mean being successful.

Right. And, you know, in sales, it just feels good, doesn't it? Like, right? Because it has the same feeling as selling, but not the same result.

Yeah. I mean, you feel good at the end of the day. You've worked your 8 to 10 hours and you're like, I was in meetings all day. And then you look and you're like, wow, I got absolutely nothing new. It's all— wow, what happened?

Do you have some kind of acid test to determine You know, where you are in the sales process, or is this a sales process or is this an education process?

I mean, I have my process that I try to follow and check the boxes of like, has the decision maker been involved yet? And in that case, in software, it's almost always proof of concepts or POCs. And so before I get into a POC, have I met somebody that's actually signing off saying this is legitimately— it doesn't have to be budgeted, but does it fill a big enough need that we can find money for it? And, and I think that's, that's probably my biggest thing. I'm probably not as organized as I should be from that perspective. But I, I want to know that if I'm getting into the point where I'm going to be spending at least a couple days a month or week with them, that I'm at least spending my time somewhere where there's a return potential.

And last question, what would your advice be for other people that are in the security space? What's the one distinction that you see between like an A+ and just like a B+ player?

I would say, one, don't make it about you. When you're out there meeting with people, get to know the people, get to know what they care about. I mean, I have an old customer that loves Star Wars, but he was so angry with the new series of them because they're calling it commercialized. So I would send him texts jokingly anytime something new would come out, like on Disney+, when they, you know, The Mandalorian come out. And I was like, are you going to watch this? Knowing he was going to send me back, you know, a whole paragraph or 2 about why this was such a bad idea. And I would say my advice is get to know these guys, because when you send that text and they respond instantly versus the, hey, can we talk? Like, you're not always going to get that response.

It's the want to talk with you instead of only when they have to talk.

Right, exactly. Yeah, make them interested so that they look and they say, oh, it's Neil, I'm going to respond. Versus the, oh my God, he's asking again.

Right. Where is it? What's the next step? Touching base.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Hey, Neil, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

I'm on LinkedIn. I don't really use Twitter that much, but I am on Twitter. But yeah, feel free to connect.

TikTok?

No, I'm not on TikTok.

No. What a great guy. And you really see the power of creativity, the power of building up your ecosystem that's independent of the company that you're at today. Who are these people that you can network and get value from regardless of what company you work from? When you're planning your career strategy, there's certain categories and people tend to stay at least in that category, selling software, the huge category, or hardware. Or services. And your network, we tend to just use transactionally, as I need it, when I need it, instead of building up deposits of value, deposits of relationships. And even when you don't need it, I talk a little bit about it in past podcasts about the relationship I had with recruiters. And I had a handful of recruiters that I would always take their calls and always return the calls regardless of whether I was in market or not.

Why?

Because they were talking to the companies that I may want to work with someday. And they had enormous amounts of intelligence about the market, my competitors, my previous employees, people that I should get to know in the industry. And when you're planning your career, you got to think beyond the current quarter. I know it's hard, and we tend to be hyper-deal-focused, and we should be to a certain extent, but we should put a little bit, 5%, 10% of our time into building that network before we need it. Because when you do need it, it has to be there. The time to build it is not when you need it. You know, too often, I'm sure you all get the calls when someone gets laid off or canned or whatever, and all of a sudden that's when they need help, and it's an emergency, it's a fire drill, and you might be able to help them. But what if you were turning down offers all the time? You were always not in market, but open to listening to people and helping them. You take the call not because you're in market, but because you could refer somebody, uh, set somebody in the right direction, give them a lead maybe. And I think that definitely helped my career. And if you're creative about it on the customer side, on the prospect side, leave a little breadcrumb there. become part of your network and have them be there and open-minded and not be that person that, okay, you're not in market next, let me go find the next person. That might be your market if you're very transactional, but more often than not, we've got to kind of be there when the timing is right. And timing is a critical element in most of what we sell. When the timing is right and you're there and you've got rapport, boom, guess who they go with? But if you're just trying to find somebody in market, I think those days are really hard to try and find somebody who's in market with active pain. Because if they have active pain, they're probably searching out for a solution. They're talking to friends. They're, they're, they're on the internet. Asking. They're not waiting for a salesperson to send them email or a phone call. And even when they are, they probably— those are not the highest priority. They might respond just to find a comparison and get education, but are they really going to take it to the next level? Now, this morning I was doing the math, and there's about 8 million business-to-business salespeople out there. And if you think maybe the top 1% make close to 7 figures or more, over $1 million US, that's a lot. That's 80,000 people. Is my math right? You know, I am in sales. I'm good at percentages because of commission. But 80,000, that's realistic when you ask yourself, could I be in the top 80,000 salespeople in the world? It's not like the top 8 or 800 or 8,000 even, but 80,000? Yeah. It's not like professional sports where you have to be in the top, what, 100, 50, 10? Probably the top 1,000, I would think, to make 7 figures. So how do you get there? Are you going to get there through osmosis? Just being around, hanging out, showing up?

Doubt it. Luck?

Doubt it. Not to a million. You can get to $300,000, $400,000 maybe in a good year, something falls on your head. But a million? To get there, you have to become really good. And not just be in the right industry at the right time, but be good at understanding how to close large deals. How to build that ecosystem. How to start conversations and get meetings. With complete strangers without pitching them. Because pitching them is the least effective way to start a conversation. So, if you're interested in getting to that top 1%, whether it's for money or just competitiveness, or you don't want to waste your time, check out b2brevenue.com. I made a special video. It's about 20 minutes long. It shows which course is right for you and what you get out of it. When you invest a year really focusing on understanding a complex sale— and this stuff nobody teaches. I, I can constantly look out there and nobody's teaching this stuff. This is how companies buy and how you can control and block out your competition and get companies to take action and place orders. Start a conversation with a get-up meeting. Everyone teaches gimmicks out there, tricks, personalization, and relevance, but they're still pitches. They're still well-formed commercials, and they're good commercials, and they do work better than a pitch. But, you know, still, it's only going to maybe double. It's not going to 10x it. It's not going to get you into the great accounts you want at the level you want. So if you're interested in getting into that Top 1%. Now the top 10%, I gotta believe, is making well over $300,000, $500,000 even. And that, that's 800,000 people. So the numbers are not overwhelming, they're realistic. Now compare it to any other profession, you know, the top engineers, they're not making— it's, you know, maybe the top Oh, 1/10 of 1%. And who can work that hard? Who's that smart? Not me. Sales, that's where the action is, baby. So go to b2brevenue.com, check it out. Make sure you're checking out the other podcasts, Sales Questions, Brutally Honest Answers, the B2B Revenue Leadership Show, and the Sales Leadership Show. And I've got everything stored up on YouTube if you want to just check out the YouTube. Just search Brutal Truth or Brian Burns Sales on YouTube. It'll come right up. I keep all the comedy stuff up there, so if you want to share that, I'd appreciate it. Or just— you can find it all there. Just search on the channel, real easy. We'll see you next time.