HERE IS THE PERFECT BALANCE OF MINDSETS TO WIN IN B2B SALES

I remember reading a book early in my sales career, and it had this description of the balance of the right mindset in sales, especially enterprise sales. It was an Ivy League street fighter, meaning that the Ivy League part of it was the business acumen, the professionalism, uh, the understanding of how a company gets things done. But the street fighter part was the scrappy person who understands that bureaucracies need to be worked around sometimes, that there is always a side door. Everyone out there is going through the front door. It's very busy. It's all set up for you not to come through it. The back door requires a relationship that already exists. The side door is the magic door. And people overlook this because it doesn't serve them immediately. But it's the door that we can open as salespeople. But you have to be a street fighter. You can't be, what, a service clerk? And how do you get that confidence? Because you think it's just knowledge.

You think, oh, Show me how.

Okay, I'll show you how, but then it won't work and you'll say, I did that. The problem is there's a skill to it. There is a certain something that is sometimes not clearly understood or easily articulated, and the way to get good at that is repetitions. And there's 2 ways of getting repetitions. One, years of experience. Very expensive, very long, very arduous. And the other is practice. And now you can practice your process, you can practice question and answer, you can press— practice your business acumen. But what if you could do it in an engaging, enlightening way? Go to brevitypitch.com. Check out the future of sales performance. Sales is not just an activity, guys. I know we tried to take every element of art and uniqueness out of it, and it's reduced revenue, not increased it. The future is revenue performance. Go to brevitypitch.com. Check out Brevity Play. It's a free evaluation copy. Here we go.

Hey, Jimmy, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

So, Brian, thank you for having me. My name is Jimmy Bakakis. I'm kind of— I've been in the technology industry for probably about 16, 17 years. Currently, I'm the managing director of critical infrastructure for a company called Ceragon Networks, and we build private wireless networks for governments, utilities, private enterprises, as well as some of the tier 1, tier 2 service providers.

Great. And why sales for you?

That's a very good question, actually. It's, uh, so one of the things I enjoy in life, I kind of got into it by chance, to be honest with you. I kind of first job came in managing in a previous role, managing partners and relationships for a technology company. And I loved the relationship side of things. So kind of morphed from there into more of a sales role and talking to more of the customers and so on and so forth. And lo and behold, 16, 17 years later, I'm where I'm at today.

Well, I mean, you've had a great run.

What do you attribute that to?

Honestly, I think a lot of it is the focus on the relationship side of things. 'Cause at the end of the day, regardless of whether you're selling technology, you're selling pencils, you're selling cars, it's a product, right? So the product itself is indifferent, but people tend to like to buy from people. And I think for me personally, by focusing on the relationship side of things and truly understanding what the customers want, it kind of takes it to a different dynamic a little bit, right? So you're not just pitching something, you're trying to build that friendship, that relationship, that trust, so to speak.

Do you think that's something that's either misunderstood or neglected today in sales?

Definitely, definitely. I mean, I see it even in our organization sometimes where everybody's pushing their own, call it agenda or goals. I mean, like anything in sales, you have metrics, right? You have to meet a certain target, a certain quota, Especially as a public company, at times there's numbers that you have to meet for the investors, but people tend to lose focus on the customer side of things. So instead of pushing their agenda, what does the customer want, or what is their timelines, or what is their needs? So I think, I do think, and especially as the pressures today, more and more technology is getting into place, more and more the numbers and systems are getting into place to measure things. people lose focus a little bit on the customer intimacy part of it.

And has that been harder to maintain as you've moved up in your career?

I would probably say yes and no. It has been to an extent because again, like I mentioned, more and more people are focused on the number side of things and okay, how do we make these numbers? But I think from my standpoint, I was very fortunate to kind of grow up with some key people around me that kind of help me focus on the relationship part of it. So I've kind of maintained that, but it is a constant battle. You're constantly going back and forth, kind of, okay, what are the customer's needs and how does that meet with your needs or your organizational needs, right? So yeah, it does get more difficult.

But usually, like, when I look at, like, prospecting and stuff that people are doing and I look at it and I go, this has nothing to do with the client, it's all about the seller.

Yep, exactly. And I think that's where people make a huge mistake. To be honest, because you could waste a lot of cycles just because you don't understand what the client wants or what the client needs. And sometimes the client doesn't know what they need. So in those discussions, if you're good at what you do, you're able to kind of build that trust, build that relationship where you can guide them down this journey and help them understand what their needs could be or what the possibilities could be. Again, as opposed to just pitching a box or some commodity product, right?

So And would you say that's your strongest selling characteristic is building those relationships?

Yeah, I would definitely say so. I think from my standpoint in my career, both internally building teams internally, but even externally building that kind of, I call it ecosystem, but it's not, it's sometimes it's partnerships or complementary solutions we can bring to the table. Other times it's that partnership with the customer because it really is a partnership. If you, I'm a firm believer, if you look at it as a transaction, Great, you may make a number today, but you're not going to succeed 2, 3 years down the road with that customer. If you look at it more as a relationship, then chances are that customer is going to be with you for many, many years.

And do you ever run into salespeople that don't understand the difference?

Oh yeah, quite a lot, quite a lot. And I think part of it is, I'm not sure, and I've been out of school for a while now, but I'm not so sure that the schoolbooks, quote unquote, really teach the importance of the relationship. I think you have a lot of different sales strategies or sales approaches, shall we say, or whatnot, but I've yet to see somebody that really focuses on the relationship side of it. So especially kids that are coming out of school nowadays and going into sales domains, they're focusing on, okay, if I do this, this, and this, this is what's going to happen. And that's not real life. I mean, we're dealing with humans, right? In most cases.

Right. They look at their cadence and how many times they can hit the button every day. Because that's what they're measured on.

Exactly. I mean, if you think about it, you hear a lot of leaders also saying, well, if you make 100 phone calls, you'll get 10%. So you'll get 10. And that's really not the case. Again, what are you selling? What are you trying to do? A transaction for today or building a foundation for tomorrow, right?

And was this something that somebody taught you? Is it something you grew up with? Is it something that just seemed obvious to you?

So I think a little bit of every— I think experience kind of played a big role in it. I was very, very fortunate. My father was kind of for many, many years in the technology space as well. And I watching him growing up, always focusing on the human element of it. And many, many people over time have always said he's always been kind of like a father figure to the industry or to many people in the industry. And I was very fortunate to grow up with him around and kind of listening to him and how he approached from a very, very young age. So I think I kind of, I learned a lot from him and then kind of taking it through my career as well too. And the experiences I've had where I've been more successful has always been when I focus on, again, that relationship aspect of it. And the numbers will come. The numbers will definitely come. It's just you have to build the foundation and take it away from a transaction.

And when you hit resistance internally, do you feel it's just not a match or do you try and educate? Do you try and change minds?

I try and educate and try and change minds. Sometimes it's successful, other times it's not. So, it's Sometimes I think our biggest challenge sometimes in any organization, you have your— well, we say it often too, your competitors are— there's external forces, but oftentimes your competitors are internal as well. Your own organization or yourself is a competitor. So I think over time I've tried, yeah, we try and change minds, we try and educate, we try and show by example. Some cases successful, other cases it's not.

And have you been able to teach your team or the people that you work with how to do this?

Oh, so over time I have. So in my previous role, I had more people that were actually reporting to me. Now my position currently, we're kind of growing that part of the company. So over time I have been able to, and it's been, I think, some of the most successful people that I've worked with. Because I look at it as, again, working with, not necessarily them working for me or anything like that. It's a partnership. So we work through it together and I'm able to kind of some of the experiences I've had and share that with some of the people and hopefully it benefits them. I think it has in some, many cases actually, I think it has.

And how do you do that? Is it through questions or role play or just?

A little bit of everything. It's more kind of open discussions. It's never kind of sitting across a table and whatnot. I love spending time with my coworkers. So whether we're on, because we travel a lot, especially in our industry. So whether it's having a drink at night at the hotel bar, right? Just catching up on life, but as part of that, you're also kind of teaching and mentoring and having those open discussions. And funny enough, it's not only benefiting them, it benefits me a lot because I learned a lot from those interactions as well, right? So how do I change my approach or maybe something I didn't think of, or I'm looking at it from a different light. So I think it's mutually beneficial. And a lot of it is in those discussions, those interactions that maybe are not as formal, but you get so much more out of it in my mind.

Yeah, and that's what I miss most about sales.

Yeah.

It's those road trips and sitting down and talking with other reps and managers. And when you have— and are lucky enough to have a manager that wants to do that instead of just being autocratic.

Yeah, exactly. And I think it's very important, especially if you're going to become a leader in an organization, you need to take that time and it's And it's almost like you take yourself out of the role or out of the organization and becomes more personal, but you're also accomplishing a lot of goals or a lot of things for, for the role itself, right? So aside from building the relationship, building the trust, you're able to kind of help mentor and teach some of the team that's out there. And like I said before, better yourself as well too.

And what happens in your industry that you've sold than if you don't build relationships?

Honestly, like I said earlier, it ends up being a transaction because it comes— it turns out to— yeah, you might be successful in that sale, but because it becomes transactional, it also becomes somewhat commoditized. So tomorrow they can go buy from someone else because at the end of the day, whatever you're selling, you may have the best features today or the best bells and whistles today or the best price or whatever the case may be, But tomorrow somebody's gonna beat you. Somebody's gonna come out with that next generation feature or a better price or whatever it is. So your glue is really your relationship. It's not really the product per se, 'cause technology, especially in the technology space, things change, I would say daily, but in some cases maybe even hourly. So if you don't build something more of a foundation with the customer, they can easily replace you right at that point.

Yeah, because it raises a great point, because if it's a transaction, then they view you as a commodity.

Exactly, exactly.

Not a solution, not a partner.

And that's what we say, we say that a lot internally right now, it's we need to take the transaction out of the equation. We're a solution, we consider ourselves a solution provider, so we provide different elements of whatever the customer may need, and the only way you get that is by building that relationship. You can solidify the solution offering, And you get close, you become a partner to these guys, whereas it's not a customer and a seller type relationship.

Right.

It's more of a partnership. And you'll have, in general, people you see that successfully where you have these relationships that are 5, 10, 15 years long, and you wonder why is this person buying from that person or that company for so many years? And I'm willing to bet you 95% of the time, it has nothing to do with what they're buying. It's more of how they feel when they're buying, how the support they're getting, The relationship aspect of it, right?

Yeah, they feel like somebody understands what they need.

Exactly, exactly.

And what would you say is your hardest part of the job?

I think part of it is, for me currently, it's we're—

Not today, but in general.

Yeah, no, I think it's the landscape changes. I think especially on the technology side, you got so many things that are going so fast, and you're dealing with different dynamics all the time. You're dealing with different personalities, you're dealing with different interests, you're also dealing with different needs from the customer side of things. And I think part of the challenge is, especially when you're in sales, because like I said earlier, you still have numbers to hit, you still have quotas to hit. How do you hit those quotas and then also balance the relationship side of things where things do move, things do change? So understanding the budget cycles of customers, understanding where their funding sources come. And I think the biggest challenge is that takes a lot of time. You have to get ingrained with these customers. You have to build the relationship with them so you can understand where their funding sources are so you can forecast properly on your end. And I think that the challenge is the time it takes to do that. And in today's day and age where everybody wants results today, unfortunately, sometimes that doesn't match as easily, right? I think we're moving super fast as a society. We're moving extremely fast, but things don't necessarily happen as fast as we would like them to. So I think that's the biggest challenge, kind of conveying that and balancing between that out there.

And when you're hiring, how would you characterize the ideal candidate, not for your company right now, but in general?

I think in general, honestly, naturally there's certain sets or certain skill sets you need regardless of what the role is. But I think people also need to take the element away from it, and it's more of the personal side of things. So I like in interviews, for example, I like spending time with people talking about things that maybe are not relevant to the company itself or to the position itself, understanding who the individuals are, because I think oftentimes the skill sets are important, but you also have to have a fit within the organization or within the culture. And I think we underestimate that sometimes, that cultural fit. So I think Part of the interview process is understanding who these individuals are, what they're ultimately, what are their goals? Do they match up with what you're trying to do as an organization or what you're trying to build with a team? I think that's extremely important. And sometimes we don't necessarily spend enough time doing that, in my opinion.

And how can you tell if it's not a cultural fit?

It's difficult. I think part of it for myself has come from experience. And that's not to say that I haven't made mistakes before. I have, just like everybody where you, I mean, first time talking to somebody, you can— they can blow you away in some cases, and then you realize that it doesn't work. So I think it's important to have as part of the interview process, you kind of have different people that you trust within the organization that maybe have a similar thought or similar idea and have the interview process go through them as well too, because you may be blindsided in some cases. And like I said, nobody's perfect. I've made many mistakes in terms of hiring at times, right, where you believe you see something, or sometimes you see something because you want to see it in some cases, and it may not actually be there. So being able to have a group of people that you kind of trust and rely on through the interview process to provide feedback is crucial.

And let's say you're talking to a great recruiter that you trust and believe in. How would you describe the person you want to hire?

That's a great question. So I think part of, part of it is from a recruiting, from a recruiter standpoint, oftentimes relying— any recruiters watching this may hate me for saying this, but relying on the recruiters is not the only way because they don't have, they really don't have the pulse of your organization. So I think you can do as best a job as you can kind of explaining the ideal candidate in some cases, but I've yet to find a recruiter that's able to nail it 100%. And I think that's why it's important to also rely on your internal organization through this process because a recruiter, again, no disrespect whatsoever, but their mandate is like anybody else, place a person within a company, right? So they may not have the same insight or the same interest as you do out there in filling the role. And when you hire somebody, chances are you're going to waste— if it's the wrong person, you're going to waste a lot of money and probably more importantly, the time. It'll probably take about 6 months for somebody to get acclimated. And then by the time you kind of get— you're looking at almost a year of complete waste in some cases, if it's the wrong person, right? So I think the recruiting standpoint, you kind of— you're able to outline certain features or certain characteristics that you're looking for, but then The decision really, you really need to have that group internally vet the candidates a lot better than relying just on the recruiter.

Sure, but you would have to describe them, like most leaders would say, oh, I want a killer, I want an A-player, I want a hunter, not a farmer.

Well, it depends, it depends on the role you're looking for. So especially if you're looking for kind of a business development type role, new markets, then you're definitely looking for kind of that hunter mentality. So you would definitely describe it in that case. If you're looking for account management, you're looking for somebody that's coming in kind of farming, so to speak. So you do definitely, you shape it out with certain characteristics or that certain nomenclature that you send out there. And then hopefully the recruiter's good enough to be able to kind of bring you people that are truly hunters or truly farmers and so on and so forth. But yeah, you definitely, depending on the role itself, you do have to box it in a little bit that way.

And a lot of people misunderstand relationship for just being friendly. Or friends. That the objective is not just to be friendly and friends, it's to build trust, which opens up the communication channel and belief so that you can communicate as individuals, not as rep and clients.

Exactly. I think the biggest mistake you make is what you just nailed right now. Because somebody's friendly, that doesn't mean they're trustworthy, or that doesn't mean they're somebody you can rely on. And that takes time. That takes time. And that's why I think it's important, like I was saying before, when you're traveling or you're spending time with people, building the relationship aspect of it, understanding their personal issues, their personal problems at home or whatever it is. So understanding the individual, and by building those bonds, you gain their trust and they gain your trust as well too. And I think that's, that's part of this journey that goes on and it doesn't happen overnight.

And what do you think most sales leaders get wrong today?

I think the biggest challenge is again focusing solely on the number aspect of it. Again, I go back, numbers are extremely important. You have enough, we're not charity cases, right? And even in sales—

It's a philanthropic activity.

Exactly. And even compensation. I mean, everybody on the sales side, you're looking at that commission check. You're looking on how you can make that extra dollar. So by no means do I take that importance away from it. But I think when you focus on those numbers, you kind of make mistakes in other areas. I think there could be an underlying issue that if, as a leader, you help Johnny do something a little bit different or Margaret do something for whatever it is, but if you take that time to understand why they're not meeting that number or what is driving them to do X, B, X, A, B, C, or whatever actions, then you can become a more, a better leader, more effective leader out there. So I think the biggest mistake is when you typically, when you have these kind of call it revenue calls or commit calls or whatnot, and you're talking to your sales team and the only thing you're looking at is, okay, what's this number? What's that number? Instead of digging deeper into understanding what is the customer doing? What are their plans? So I think traditionally what we've, what I've done in my career is, and you know, as a leader, you don't have time to go through every, every account or everything like that, but focus on their top 5, their top 10 accounts, whatever their big— could be moneymakers, but it could also be their big challenges. It might be a lower revenue account, but there's a challenge for some reason. So focus on, again, not just the revenue side of things, but the challenge side or the importance of the accounts and dig a little deeper with your team to understand the dynamics of what's going on. Because then even as a leader, it helps you forecast better to your leaders and set the expectation properly.

Yeah.

That's not just from some CRM system that says, oh, Bill is going to hit this number, or Bob's going to hit that number, and then all of a sudden they miss and you don't know why they missed. So— Well, that's it.

I see a lot of sales leaders managing through the CRM instead of talking to the rep.

Yep, exactly.

They ask, how else would you do it? I go, talk to the rep.

Exactly. And that's where you get— because, and I've traditionally done this, so even regardless of what numbers your rep gives you, you have to have some sort of buffer. So you're reporting up with a buffer. You can't buffer unless you're understanding what's going on in those accounts.

It's real.

How do you make those judgments? And I think CRM systems are fantastic because we need them in order to be able to kind of keep ourselves in line and track things and whatnot, but they can't be the golden kind of goose egg. Exactly, or the Bible of sorts, right? Because then there's more to it. There's— I go back to the relationship aspect, especially when you're selling solutions and you're selling stuff like that. There's so many complexities in there and things could go wrong because of whatever reason. You need to understand that, especially as a leader. You need to understand what that is, and that's how you're going to help your team as well too, or any sales rep out there.

And when you're looking at a forecast or an individual deal, what are the key questions that you're asking that you you think the rep may not be covering?

Well, I think that the big— the first one from my standpoint is, okay, what is— what are they really trying to do? What is this customer trying to do? And then kind of correlating that with, well, what's the timing for it? Is there budgets? Is there— I mean, it's great that we want to— like, I'll use my world. We want to build this great network that's out there, but what's the budget cycle? Do they have the funding today? Do they have to go for budget approvals? Is it like— we deal a lot with government entities. Well, government entities, you have your budget cycles that are usually approved the year before. So has this been approved? So all these little intricacies that it's great that Mr. Customer wants to implement this network, for example, but what's their timeline? So understanding what their timelines are, I think is crucial. I think a lot of people make that mistake in not truly understanding where they are in that cycle. And then also understanding is the person you're talking to is fantastic, wants to go forward, but are they truly the decision maker? Do they own Do they own the budget for this? Sometimes we forget about that, right? Who's cutting the check, so to speak?

Well, they say they do.

Yeah, exactly. But, and I think part of it is, and goes back again what we were saying at the beginning, when you build a relationship, the relationship with any account or any organization can't just be one individual. I think where we've been, or I've been successful over time, is even as a sales rep, so when I'm talking to my equivalent on the customer side, but then I have my engineers talking to their engineers, I have a finance team talking to their finance team, so you have all these kind of tentacles, quote unquote, within the organizations talking to each other, you're getting closer, but you're also getting a lot more information and you're able to triangulate everything. So you set the proper expectations for forecasting when things will happen, so on and so forth. If you're relying on one voice, what if that voice is— again, what's their ulterior motive? What's their driving factor? I mean, it could be anything.

And that's still probably the number one or number two biggest mistake.

Yeah.

You know, going steady or single-threaded, whatever you call it.

Yeah, exactly. And you're extremely vulnerable at that point because— and it could be even if you're a long-term account, if you're still just talking to one person after 2 years, there's something desperately wrong there because at any given day that valve could shut. That guy gets laid off, for example, or retires or whatever the case may be, right?

Right. And a lot of reps say, well, they don't want me going around them or end-running them. What does that tell you?

Goes back to trust. If they trust you, they have nothing to worry about. Yeah.

And what separates like an A-level top rep from an okay rep in your mind, in your experience?

For me, it's— I think as sales, you have to have that— I don't want to say killer mentality because it's very— I see it as negative sometimes, but you have to have that drive. You have to have that drive for Call it innovation. And when I say innovation, I mean to do things differently, to be able to go after a customer in a different way. But you also have to have the personable skills. You can't be— and I apologize for this if I'm crude— but you can't be an ass to these people, right? Or have this arrogance about you or whatnot.

Bully.

Yeah, exactly. It's going to take you to a certain level and that's it. So I think the biggest quality for is is to have the drive, because again, we're in sales, we got to go after these accounts, but to do it in a manner where it's more personable, it's not as threatening. And it's just like going back to back in the day when people used to knock on the doors to sell, whether it was vacuums or encyclopedias or whatnot. The ones that typically got were the nicer, not the guys that were trying to push their way in the door, right? Or the people that were trying to push their way in the door. So I kind of, I use that analogy a little bit is, You have to have the courage and the guts to go knock on the door, but you're not pushing your way through the door because that door is going to be shut down on your face instantly at that point, right?

Well, that's it because it's hard to tell. I mean, I remember the old term Ivy League street fighter.

Did you ever hear that? I did, yes.

Yeah, because that's what it is, right? It's the Ivy League personality, polished, polite, professional, But a lot of drive and focus.

Yeah, exactly. And I think that's, that's very crucial. I mean, even, even when you think about how you present yourself in front of a customer, it's amazing to me some— what's a lot, and you don't see it as much anymore, but the whole suit and tie kind of thing, which you don't, you don't need anymore, but you need some sort of polish. You know, you're not going to come up to a customer chewing gum and kind of or slouching, or, I mean, and you'd be surprised how many people actually do it. We were, we were at a trade show last week in Las Vegas and just watch people watching and just kind of seeing the different crowds and whatnot. And you could tell, at least for me, maybe I was making generalizations, but you can tell who you think could have been successful and who was not just by their demeanor, their body language, and how they dressed, for example. And it doesn't have to be top-end name brand type thing, but just put together well, right? Just, it goes a long way. It goes a long way. Yeah.

And clearly you've developed that. Was that something you got from your dad? Is that something that—

I think, yeah, I think to an extent I probably did. Like I said, from early on, it was always kind of watching, because like anybody else, you look at your dad and your dad's your dad, right? He can't do any wrong. And as a little kid, I used to see he used to travel for business trips and I'd be 5, 6 years old or whatever it was, and he'd come home. And so you get from that. And then a lot of it also from experience over time. I mean, not that I'm some old gray hair, but I've been doing this for 16, 17 years. Over time, you learn and you see different people and you see different characteristics. And I think over time, you kind of adapt a little bit based on those experiences. Yeah.

And what are some of the hard questions you ask during an interview?

Oh, I think that, I mean, kind of probably anything to do around failure, because I think we all, we've all failed somewhere. And for me, I asked questions about, okay, in terms of what was the hardest thing you've overcome or things like that. And the idea is, I want to understand from my side of things how they overcame those failures, but also understand, are they giving me some bullshit answer that's just whatever it is, because it's what I want to hear, as opposed to truly having overcome something and being able to have accomplished something after being knocked down. I think a lot of us, we do learn a lot after we've been knocked on our behinds a little bit, and you kind of— that helps you grow. So I think for me, one of the most challenging things is asking about those failures and being able to decipher, is it really a failure? Is it something that they're just kind of appeasing me when they're asking, or that they're answering, I should say?

And what gives you that will, that drive?

From just in general, you're talking about?

Or a sales career standpoint? Yeah.

Well, I think for me, it's, it's gonna sound like a philanthropic thing, but kind of making a difference where we're not necessarily— I'm not going to save the world, although I'd love to save the world in some cases. But it's more of whatever we're doing and wherever we're going after. So whatever the customer may be, how can I bring something that brings value to them? That again takes it away from the transaction. So that drives me where, say, where we're building these networks, if they happen to be a security network that's for some greater cause, whether it's to provide video surveillance for safety reasons or bringing connectivity to certain areas that don't have connectivity, for example, or optimizing operations. So I'll use my example up here where we're in a little bit of an ice storm with no power, but if we build a network for a power grid where all of a sudden the power doesn't shut off everywhere, like it has helped people here today. Those sort of things. So being able to make a difference, so what you're doing is actually providing a value to the customer, and that kind of drives me because the compensation side is going to come. So we're going to make our money as a salesperson anyway, once you implement, once you sell something, whatnot. But you kind of get a little bit of an added satisfaction when you see that what you're doing or what you're selling is making a difference, and that For me, it drives me to make a difference somewhere else again. What else is the other— what else can I do for that customer or another customer? So I think that's kind of the drive. Like anybody in sales, obviously financial, there's a financial drive to it, but it's not my main driver. And I don't— I think in order to be successful, it can't be your main driver. No, not your only driver. Because there's too many other factors, or not your only driver. And even I would say it can't be your main driver because I think if you focus strictly on that, you're gonna, you're gonna make mistakes. You're not gonna build the true relation, a true trust, true area, all the things that we talked about where we— you need to be successful, right?

And when you meet a salesperson, let's say not somebody who works for you, but somebody who says, hey, can you help me with my career? What's the typical thing you either see them doing wrong or that you could save them years of heartache if you just Well, I think honestly, there's a couple things.

So especially when you're coming out of, or you're young and entering the industry, I think thinking that you know it all and coming in with this, again, I said the arrogance is key. I was very fortunate. Like I said earlier, I was kind of watching whether it was my dad or some key leaders throughout my career that were kind of, kind of helped guide me and whatnot. I think having a mentor or the importance of mentors is crucial. I know when I was in university, they used to tell me, oh, you need a mentor, you need a mentor. And I kind of, at the time, again, I was that kid coming out of school knowing the world, right? And like, yeah, why do I need a mentor? I know this. They don't know what's going on today. But it is so important. It's so, so important out there because one, you get to emulate a little bit, but you can also have somebody that you trust that's able to kind of tell you the hard things. So I think salespeople out there, that have this attitude that they know it all. That's the one thing that you have to be open. And even myself, after 16, 17 years in sales, like I said earlier, I'm learning every day in those discussions with people that are equal to me, above me, below me, whatever the case may be, you're learning every single day. So I think you have to have— my advice, or I guess to anybody, would be be open, be willing to learn.

Now, did you happen to fall into that trap? Because you had like a fantastic run, and I got to believe that maybe after a good quarter that went to your head.

And at times I think it did. I think there is times where, um, and I think maybe I, because of my foundation, I caught myself. But, uh, like anybody, right, you, you have some success and it gets, like you just said, it gets to your head and I can rule the world. And then You get knocked down a little bit the next quarter where you don't make that number or you don't— that big deal you thought slid out a little bit. So I think we— you have to be humble enough to realize, to learn. And exactly, and you have to be open to that. And I think in order for kind of long-term success, like I said before, you have to be learning every single day.

Great. Hey, I really enjoyed this conversation. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

So I'm on LinkedIn and basically Jimmy Bakakis is my name, so they can definitely follow me on there. I'm assuming we'll be tagged on to this podcast as well too. So it'd be a pleasure, but it's been a great— I really enjoyed this, Brian. I thank you for reaching out to me, and I love the fact that engaging with you here, it was a great conversation.

What I got out of that was he's definitely an Ivy League street fighter, but also Notice what he didn't like about certain characteristics of reps. It's that know-it-all, the Dunning-Kruger effect. We all tend to go through it at one period of our life or career, and the faster we get through it, the better. You know what it is. I'm sure you've seen them in the office or at the QBR or the kickoff meeting. It's the person, I, I've been doing this for so many years. I've been through it. I've seen it all. Yet they're not the best salesperson. Well, if you're that good, why aren't you at the top? Why aren't you crushing it? Uh, I've got lots of excuses to justify my failures. The reason this know-it-all is so dangerous in sales is that if you think you know it all, you're not going to see it all. You're going to see the things that you want to see and miss the important things. We have to be humble little detectives in sales. We have to constantly be curious. We can't know it all. Our customers don't even know what they're thinking most of the time, don't know what they want, and yet we're out there asking them. We have to guide them. We have to be curious all the time. Curious about ourselves, curious about our market, our clients, because that will open up our mind to see the things that we're missing. See the, the little details, the missing piece of our strategy. And this is critical because we only get paid on what we close, and the excuses don't really help. They don't. They make us feel better, but they don't put a single penny into our bank account. So it's up to us to constantly be training ourselves. And if you want to learn sales, you have to be insanely creative. And here's the secret to learning it. You have to be really consistent, and the knowing and the doing have to be coupled. And we have this innate thing in our psychology called homeostasis that doesn't really like us to change, either for the better or the worse, very fast. For the worst, it happens faster. For the better, it takes a lot of time and work. And consistent, almost pretty much every day, a little bit of repetition, a little bit of distinction, a little bit of discovery about ourselves, our deals, the job that we're doing. That's what the art part is. And the science doesn't end either. But the good part about this is the more you get into it, the more you enjoy it. The more you enjoy it, the more you'll do it. Gotta get on that treadmill as opposed to the avoiding it, not working, avoiding more of it, not working cycle that a lot of people go from Bs to Cs. If you get stuck in that B-player trap, that Dunning-Kruger effect, Where you think you know it all, or that it has to be something outside of me that's wrong. Well, you don't have control of things outside of you. So even if you're right, you're wrong. Meaning that if you want it to get better, it means we have to become better. And how do you become better? You learn a distinction. You practice it. You repeat it until it becomes part of your identity. It is work.

Sorry.

All the hacks and tips and tricks will get you a little bit, but it doesn't win the game. You got to play the whole game. And if you want to win that whole game, come to b2brevenue.com right now and check out the courses and sign up today. Watch the 2 videos. And here's the basic overview of how they work. You get access for a year. You can pay all at once or in 12 monthly payments. But it's not a membership, meaning you can't cancel until you pay for the whole course. So it's a payment plan, not a subscription. And you get access day one. Nothing's gated and you can consume it all day long. There's a lot there, a lot of office hours, a lot of one-on-ones because so much of sales is contextual. And that's why people always want more tactics on the podcast. Well, tactics are contextual. Some people will hear it and go, yeah, that fits my world really well. And other people go, that would never work in my world. I don't know. I don't know your world. That's why tactics are so hard. If it's a simple transactional sale, yeah, you can talk tactics. But most of it's distinctions. And you want to clarify them, much like the Ivy League street fighter. You can misinterpret that in a lot of different ways. Or you can just do the absolutism. That I see in the comments on LinkedIn. Like, let's take money motivation in sales. Do you need it? You absolutely do. Can it be the only thing? No. Can it be the top thing? It can be, but it might blur the distinctions a little bit. Same with competitiveness. It can be over the top. We have to treat our brain like a little— remember The Equalizer? In Risky Business, Tom Cruise's big breakout movie, his dad had this equalizer. It's part of a stereo where you, you can move up and down all these dials just right. You don't want them all the way up, you don't want them all the way down. And that's what we have to do in sales with our mindset, because if we go all the way up, it doesn't work. If we go all the way down, it doesn't work. We've got to find the right sweet spot. For it, the right equalizer. There you go. There's an analogy to take with you. And the people who, who hear this will go, a lot of absolutism. How do I find that? Well, it's a little adjustment, and it varies, and it's not fixed. You have to adjust it to the context, much like How we sell. And if you take the cookie-cutter approach, it will work sometimes. Everything works sometimes. What we want is it to work in the context that we're in. I help you with that. Go there, check it out. Make sure you're checking out the other shows, Sales Questions, Brutally Honest Answers, The Sales Leadership Show. And also, if you're a manager and you want to have customized training for your team of let's say 5 or more to make it economically viable, and you want it customized to you, and maybe you want access to the online content as well. We now have a couple of facilitators that have been certified and are ready to go, and I'm helping them with each of the training courses. So don't worry about that. Send me a note on LinkedIn and I'll get somebody in touch with you as soon as I can. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening.