HOW THIS ONE CHANGE WILL DOUBLE YOUR SALES

There's one element in sales that customers pick up on very quickly, and that's it— do they care about me? And this is one of the ways of building trust fast, is if we can, as salespeople, express our care and our concern about the client, not just about us in the context of a transaction. We're going to talk about that today. I think you're going to really enjoy this interview. Great salesperson, great story. Let's get into it. Before we do, are you— do you ever use Salesforce out there? Don't you wish there was a better, easier way, uh, as simple as possible to get all that stuff into it that our managers want? Oh good, now there is. Check out Scratchpad. The link is in the show notes below, or you can go to scratchpad.com. Check it out. They've got this really cool Chrome plugin, so it's right in the browser. You don't have to go anywhere. Boop, just pops up, enter your stuff, and there you go. Let's get into the interview. I'll sum it up at the end. Also, big announcement. If you're in the courses, the learning management system just released a community, and I've enabled it for both courses. Start the conversation, get the meeting. And winning the complex sale. It's the 2nd lesson when you go into the course. I'll be talking about it during office hours, but it really takes the courses to the next level where they're a living everyday type of thing where people can share their success stories, their fails, ask questions, just keep it, you know, relative to the course. Here we go.

Hey Tim, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

So, uh, my name is Tim Mandell. Um, I, I'm currently employed with Bluebird Networks here in the Quad Cities or Davenport, Iowa. So, um, just been selling for a lot of years. I actually started in copiers when I was 17, um, so years and years ago, and kind of my career path has led me down to, to where I'm at today. So Um, you know, I've got a couple girls, uh, in college, so, um, that's who I work for. Um, so, you know, so, you know, at the end of the day, I may work for Bluebird, but I work for Haley and Hannah. So, um, but, uh, yeah, that's a little bit about me. I've had, I've had a nice journey. I've been very, very fortunate in my life, um, to have good experiences, good mentors, and it's just, it's, it's been a good ride. It really has. And, and I, I just, I enjoy the heck out of it.

So. Was there any planning in getting into sales, or was it What was available at the time, or?

You know, the planning was Purdue asked me to take a semester off and think about life because I was—

Oh, you were that good of a student.

I was probably enjoying Purdue a little too much or lack thereof. So I went home, which was a couple hours north of Purdue, and my mom was running a real estate company and she had just bought a copier. So she's like, hey, I got, you gotta meet this guy. So I drove to Warsaw, Indiana, walked in, had my suit on. You know, this is back when we wore suits, right? Suits and ties. Had my suit on, put my hand out, and shook Joe Hamilton's hand. And he said, got the job, kid. So I said, all right, what do we do? And he said, here's my business cards. Cross my name out. Put your name on them. Get a stack of brochures and go knock on doors. And literally, that was the beginning of it.

Wow.

And so I did that for several years and I was very fortunate because when you enjoy success in there and I was very successful because we had really, really good service and that's important in the copier business. But it afforded me a lot of really, really good opportunities to move on from there. So yeah, it was just a kind of a, hey, think about your life. I did go back and finish, but think about your life and that's how I ended up in sales.

And did you like it immediately, or did you just grow to like it once you got your first check?

Or—

You know, it was, it was nerve-wracking. Um, I, I committed the same mistakes every new salesperson does, because at first you, you know enough to be dangerous, and you're just, you're walking out, you're knocking on doors, you're trying to figure things out, and then you start that overthinking. You're like, okay, well, if I do this, if I say this then they'll want to buy something from me. And then, so you think you're working hard because you're thinking about working, but you're not really doing what you're supposed to do. And that's this, go talk to people.

Yeah.

So, I did enjoy it. My dad was a salesman. He worked for Armour Swift-Eckridge for a number of years. And it was just Bob the meat guy. And he was just a genuine, you know, just a good guy. And people buy from people they like and they trust. And that was Bob. And he, you know, he was a meat salesman. So, my brother sold for a while.

too.

So, you know, my mom's like, you know, I put up with 3 salesmen in this household. So, you know, she was tough. She was tough. But I did enjoy it.

I—

it took me a long time to figure some things out, though. That's for sure. And I still figure things out.

And when did you know it was home for you?

Um, probably, I would say, it took a good maybe year when we had opened another office in Elkhart, Indiana. And at that time we had some success, but we were new to the market. And they asked me to, you know, kind of run that office and be, you know, kind of be the face of that office. And that was the challenge where I said, I'm doing this. This is fun. And we were very successful. Again, I had a— success really is always dependent on other people too when you're in sales, because people have to execute on what you're selling. And I had guys who were absolutely phenomenal at response time and service. So when I go back and I mentioned I was very lucky and I've been very blessed in my life, I've always had good people to execute on the stuff that I'm out there trying to provide to people. And that's important, you know. Without that, I don't think we succeed just on our own merit.

And what do you wish you learned earlier?

You know, I wish— I guess I learned from experiences, and it's not always the experiences of I sold this deal, I sold this deal, or wow, I got this big deal. I remember the, the time I learned that it was about them and what they wanted and not the product and what I had. I had just— so this is back, same copier gig. This is back when I first had some success. And you know, most sales reps, it's like this, and then we— this is that kind of 6-month go/no-go time. Um, when I came back from training and we had launched a new machine and it was like, it It stapled, it collated, hole punched. It was this great machine and it did all this really, really cool stuff. So we had this training and I came back and I was losing deal after deal after deal after deal. And I'm like, what is wrong with me? You know, what am I doing here? And long story short, I drove to the other office in Warsaw, Indiana where I had gotten hired. And I sat there and I just thought and we started talking and it dawned on me. I'm like, I'm talking too darn much. That was it.

Well, I think that the point before that was even more important, that it's about them, you know, because if they don't want, need, or like a new copier, no matter how well you present it and pressure them, they're not going to do anything.

No.

And you probably started to learn where to spend your time.

Yes, exactly. You know, I mean, and that's, you know, I think like you said, you start managing your activities better, right? I mean, being active for the sake of being active without a result is just being active.

It's exercise.

Yeah, we think we're, well, I'm doing really good. Well, I'm not selling anything. So no, you're not, but you're doing a lot of stuff, right? You know, so, but But you're right. So, you know, simple questions and, you know, getting to the no quicker is probably one of the most valuable lessons that I've ever learned. And sometimes it's just not the right time. It's not the right fit.

Right.

And, you know, as a sales manager, I think some of my most proudest moments are when the people would come back to me and say, no, I'm not— we're not taking that deal because it's not good for us. It's not good for me. It's not good for the service department, whatever that may be. I'd rather hear— that's when you know somebody's kind of matured. And so, I mean, it literally just happened yesterday. I jumped on a call and we were helping some guys, and he had already had a data center solution and he was pretty proud of it. And so you just got to congratulate him and say, it sounds like you got a good thing, but I'll be around. And kind of dovetailed on a training we did yesterday as well. I hopped on the training about, um, you know, being late to the game. They talked a little bit about What do you do? And, you know, the point was made, or made the point that when you come late to the game sometimes and you recognize it's not the right time, the differentiator you have is you're the person saying no. Because most salespeople go in and put the gloves up and I'm going to sell you, Brian, because you know what? I know you made a decision or you think you made a decision, but guess what?

Mine's better.

And that's not going to work.

Because that's not only not active pain, that's not even latent pain. That's, that's no pain.

That's no pain. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Right. And why jeopardize what a relationship could have been? Because they may know somebody.

Yep.

That they may move, quit that job and go somewhere else.

Yeah. Yeah, it's, you never know.

And why are you going to spar with them trying to convince them that There's something 5% better that's going to cost 50% more.

Exactly, exactly. You know, and it's like I said, and you do never know. And I mean, it kind of goes back to, you know, it's cliché and sometimes we use clichés, but you say, you know, it's just business. No, it's not. It's personal. It's always personal. It's always, always, always personal to someone, whether, you know, it's their decision, it's their company. And, and you never know that unless you do this and this, you know. Um, and that's, you know, I think those are the things that we spend a lot of time— I know we're kind of going down a rabbit hole, but we spend kind of a lot of time overthinking it a little bit, in my opinion. And we forget— we spend so much time preparing, we forget that the best part of this is listening.

Right, because you can't be empathetic unless you listen. You're not going to be listening unless you're curious about them.

Yes, and genuinely curious, I think, is the other thing.

Right, not just to serve you, but to serve them.

Exactly, because people pick up on that and people buy from people they like and trust, and that doesn't— that hasn't changed. None of that has changed and it won't change. No new widget, no new method will change that.

And what got you out of the copier business?

So it kind of migrated into, um, so I was, I was working, I went back to school and I was actively selling copiers to Purdue while I was at Purdue. So that was kind of cool. I was the only, only dude with a suit on campus, I guess, that wasn't a professor. So I played around with that for a while. Um, had a headhunter actually move us to, uh, to, uh, Bettendorf, Iowa, Davenport, Iowa, worked for a company, facilitated the sale of that company to another company out of Mason City. Good people, not the same quality of service and level that I wanted. And I remember the day I was driving down 53rd Street and I just had a stomachache. I just— because what I was telling you I knew wasn't going to become true and I can't do that. So I pulled into a headhunter and was able to, you know, fast forward, end up in the uniform industry, which by and large was my best training ground that I've ever had. There's a lot of turnover in the uniform industry.

That's brutal. Yeah, it is.

And, um, there was about an 80% turn. And when you realize how costly that is— but I will tell you, they were the best trainers, um, and they provided the most development for my career. And that's really where a lot of these— some of these other mentors— and I am very fortunate, back to the guy who hired me in copiers, I still speak to every supervisor, manager that I've had, director of sales, VP of sales, to this day, because they all provided me with something that I'll just never forget. And so that— so I kind of moved on into that. And And went from there. So that got me out of copiers. That's step 2 into the uniform business.

And what was that like? Why was there such turnover? Was it commission only? Or was it just highly competitive?

It was, I think the part of it was, is they were, they were very impatient with success. I'll give a story of a gentleman who, his name is Mike, and I brought Mike in. And Mike was military, and Mike had all the activity, but he wasn't getting the results. And my boss came to me. And Michael's his name. He said, Timmy, he said, it's your rear end if you don't get rid of him. And I said, I'm sticking with him because he'll be good, trust me. But they were just impatient with time. And it was like, you— what, we've taken this time to invest in this rep.

Okay.

We understand, we look at the activity because, you know, I have something that I used in a former career when I was COO of GenSoft was attitude, ambition, and ability. I'm going to take 1 and 2. If you, if you have number 3 without 1 and 2, I really don't want to play. But if you have 1 and 2, give it the time. And because at the end of the day, sometimes we as people give up on salespeople too soon, number 1. Number 2, we don't reflect on the fact that, you know what, if you lose somebody, what did you do wrong?

Well, let's get in. When you say attitude, what do you mean?

I mean, not placing blame, not finding excuses.

Ownership.

Ownership. Make a commitment. That taught me, you know, I had to— we had to commit in that case to a weekly number and within 10% of your number. And if you overshot it, you thought, well, geez, that's good. And then I was told, you don't know your business. So those hard lessons, and you can say, well, geez, I oversold. You should be loving me. But it was the fact that, you know, you had somebody, so you, you start to understand, and then you, you're able to, you know, really it goes back to, you know, and I, I really did have a blessed life and a blessed childhood and everything, but one thing I took and one thing that stays with me, unto your own self be true, was my mom. And if you can't be true with yourself, your deals, your pipeline, what you say to your manager, what you commit to It's not going to work. And then when things don't go your way, what are you going to do about it? And that's the attitude portion of it. It's not that days aren't bad. It's not that things don't suck sometimes. I get that. Not everything's flowery, you know.

Um, now how do you separate that from ambition? Is ambition like the military guy where he's got the ambition but not the ability?

The ambition portion is you have to hate to lose more than you like to win sometimes, right? You know.

You have to care.

You have to care. It's, I'm sorry they didn't pick me, but it's their loss. And I'm going to figure this out the next time because the number never changed, right? So, you know, and the willingness to learn and the willingness— self-development is really big for me and it's really big for people who want to get better. And investing in people, you have to invest in people and you have to invest in yourself to want to get better to this day. I mean, and that's the kind of thing that if you don't recognize that, you're going to commit the same mistakes over and over again. And I mean, we're going to muddle in mediocrity and that's not what we want to do. And however you judge success, whether it's your money, cars, I don't care, but be happy. And I just, I guess it's choosing to be happy too.

And did you come up with any unique ways of determining this when you're meeting a rep?

In terms of?

Attitude, ambition, ability.

You know, I look for, uh, with going back to G&K, we were very well trained on interviewing and meeting, you know, meeting with people. The first thing I always look for is, what do you know about us? And if they're in that first 10 seconds, if you haven't done your homework, then I kind of shut off. But I look for how they answer questions in terms of relevance and in terms of timeline. You know, tell me about a time when, you know, you had conflicting priorities. What did you do? How did it turn out? And you look for things. Well, I usually— no, no, tell me a time you did it. And you can kind of see their tenacity. You can kind of see their willingness, you know, or tell me about a time when you failed and you failed miserably and it hurt worse than anything. Well, what did that look like the next day to you? You know, those are the kind of things, and you pick it up and you, you hear, you hear the reality in people when you kind of hear the pain, you kind of hear the emotion. It's easy, easy to pick up on those kind of things. And some people look at that, and you can tell when somebody's on stage, you can tell when somebody's getting in character, and they turn around and get in their car and they are a totally different person. So that's, that's some of the things I learned. And I also learned not to hire in the likeness of me because I failed miserably over and over.

We always like ourselves, don't we?

Exactly.

I look good today. He does too, or she does, you know.

And how about anything else about attitude or ambition? Because I'm completely aligned there, because to become great at sales You have to know it's your job to become great at sales. You can't wait for it and you can't assume you are if you're not. So I think our biggest enemy is our confirmation bias, thinking that we're a lot better than we are.

And really the only thing that makes you better is the ability to get the deal and what at the end of the number, not makes you better, I'm saying judges you. Excuse me, I, you know, proves it. Yeah, that balance of it. You know, I'm just thinking it's kind of an intangible quality. So it's hard, it's unquantifiable in my— I mean, you know it when you know it, when you know it. And I just—

I always look at it as a spectrum, like, because the opposite of it's like the victim mindset. Oh, I can't do that because. Having grown up in my situation, it was really unusual that I was able to do something.

Or—

and you're like, because I've heard— you hear victim mentality regardless of background.

Exactly. You know, people with Ivy League educations that, yeah, that kind of take that role. But you had that, that choice, you know, or that opportunity.

That is a gift, right? Because You have to have that ownership because without that ownership, you're going to fall into that confirmation bias that, you know, I lost because of price or someone's cousin is on the board or something I couldn't possibly control or predict.

Exactly. Yeah, I think that's a good point. I think what you're pointing out is, is the people who gravitate towards the things that they can't— that they think they can't control, though they can control, and that becomes the excuse mechanism for why I failed. And the other thing I also look for is the person who always wants something else. How many times if I would have had, you know, 100-gig circuit would have been online and we could have turned that up next week, I would have gotten that deal. Well, that's not real. I mean, so it's—

Right. If I didn't stop to chase the rabbit, I would have caught the fox.

Exactly, exactly. You're exactly right. So, you know, just those little things.

And that's, that's hard to really vet out until they face it, they really go through the storm. Because you do want that person who hates to lose, that there is an emotional connection to winning.

Yes.

Which I, you know, I call competitiveness, but people sometimes, that, you know, comes up with a sports image. And if you're not a sports person, you don't care.

But And you can be competitive but be gracious too.

I mean, and that's right, it's all on a spectrum. You don't want to be the guy throwing the chair at the spectators, right?

Exactly, exactly. Well, that was—

they certainly care.

That was, yeah, that was Bobby Knight, the nemesis of Purdue. So exactly. Yeah.

So yeah, he's kind of at the very opposite of the spectrum.

Sure, sure.

But what other advice would you have for people getting into sales now? How to not waste their time? Because you clearly had that first 6 months to a year where you just work yourself to the bone.

Yeah, I mean, I think it goes back to being honest with yourself. If you're not a sociable person, it's probably not going to work most of the time, you know, unless you're in technical sales where you have what somebody needs. And that's, that's a very narrow, you know, narrow window that you can sell into, you probably get away with that. But when you're in the businesses that that I've been afforded to be in. Pretty much everybody needs what you have. So, you know, you have to look at yourself. And if it's forced, if you're forcing something and you know it in your heart of hearts, it looks forced on the other end. There's no acting in this. That doesn't work. You know, and I think just people have to be honest with themselves. Obviously, you know, what motivates them, everything like we talked about, everything is personal. But it's money and those are the kind of things. And, and if you don't have the willingness to cut through everything and take what you have without making excuses, you probably need to seek professional excellence elsewhere.

Yeah. And how did you keep yourself up? You know, because I got to imagine copiers and uniforms are hard sales, lots of rejection. How did you keep your, your attitude and your ambition high?

Because there was a whole world. Like, like I said, I was a—

What were your daughters' names?

Haley and Hannah. They're both in college. Well, one's, one's off the payroll. She's getting her master's now. So one's off the payroll. But it was that. It was, you know, it was personal pride. I mean, if you don't take pride in some things, You know, it was just— and I knew that, like you said, you get rejected a lot, but we had this whole world, you know, our prospects were infinite. So, you know, you can choose to live down here and say, okay, I just got my teeth kicked in, um, but guess what? I get to go next door and find out a new opportunity. And I think those are the little things, you know. We started some projects when I took over as COO of a company that was a phone billing company And it was, it was, I had a bunch of programmers and all stuff. I don't know why they picked me, first of all, but I got the gig. And we went out and we listened to these phone companies around the country and why, what was going on with them. And I spent the first 6 months listening. And the joke was, or, you know, what was that, Undercover Boss or something like that? But I went out and I listened and I heard these guys really were having trouble selling and growing their markets. I didn't know what we were going to do, but I literally— I'm pointing over here— I called one of the reps that I took the chance on. I said, Mike, I don't know what we're going to do. I don't know how we're going to do it, but I want you to come work for me and let's go figure this out. And we literally dropped ourselves into markets as a sales team to help these little phone companies grow with different products, loyalty programs, bill stuffers, whatever it was. But it was the ability— like we joke, we got our teeth kicked in every day, but we figured it out the next day. Well, let's do this. And we would usually sit, have dinner, and okay, well, this didn't work. How about this? And how about this? But only not, not getting too big with it, only controlling what we could control and try something different. And, you know, I, I think that's the thing. There's always another opportunity. There's always another way.

And were you always this optimistic, or was it out of No other choice.

Um, no, I mean, because I, I was pretty— I, I had some really good life lessons. Um, I, like I said, I keep going back to my background, but I can't forget from whence I came. And, you know, my dad dying, somebody asked, was, you know, how was that? That was probably one of the most discerning and beautiful experiences of my life because I watched a man take death very like a man and like, you know, and take it in a way he didn't complain. He didn't do anything. He had pancreatic cancer. So now I watched him face something that was really horribly painful, and I realized how lucky I was to have that. And instead of, oh, poor me, until his dying day, he just— he never quit. And I don't know. I mean, it was just— it was— I just was very afforded to have this. And when you live around optimism, you become optimistic. And I can only control me. You know, bad things are gonna happen. Life's gonna happen. You know, you're gonna go through a series of unfortunate events and jobs and this guy doesn't do this or this company does this and all this other stuff, but you made a choice to be there.

Yeah.

So make a choice to make it work or leave. But that's 100% on you. So to answer your question a long-winded way, I don't, you know, I only remember what was good.

Cool.

Hey, Tim, I appreciate your time today. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

I don't do a whole heck of a lot. I am on LinkedIn. I don't spend a lot of time on social media or Twitter. I do, you know, unfortunately, I don't, I haven't, I haven't staked my reputation on some of those platforms. But, you know, you can, you can find me at Bluebird Network, you can find me, you know, on my LinkedIn page at Tim Mandell, Bluebird Network. Those would probably be the 2 places to connect with me.

Now, I did a poll on LinkedIn, as I love to do, asking, are you emotionally attached to your deals? And I get it, maybe a lot of people could misinterpret it or interpret it differently than each other. And it was, I'd say, 55-45 needed to be attached to it. And there's a lot of issues that surround this. Now, if you become too attached to it too early, it can be very emotionally taxing on you. But if you're not emotionally attached to it, what happens? Does the other person sense it? Does your team, does all the people within the clients not feel like you care enough? And are you going Find out the creative way of getting the deal done. Because typically our deals require a little bit of creativity. And what makes us creative? We've got to have some kind of energy behind it. And humans are emotional creatures. Where do we get our energy? Out of caring, out of emotion. You know, that's the primal needs But those usually are pretty well taken care of in today's society. But when we need to get a big deal done, when there's tons of obstacles, when the default is for it not to happen, we have to become creative. And this caring, giving a few things, it's emotional regulation. And we can't have one level throughout the whole sales process. It's going to vary. When you're prospecting, you can't care that much because you're trying to find and build interest out there. And you have to start where the person is, not where you are. You're at ready to buy. I'm ready. I am ready to sell you something. But they're not ready to buy and they don't see any need, want, or desire.

Yet.

We have to develop that in a way that is in their best interest. And if you don't care or you care too much, you're going to get hurt. And I think a lot of people don't develop this. They have one state, on or off, and that doesn't work. So you have to be able to care a certain amount at a certain time Now, boy, does that sound easy? Uh, well, you just have to be aware of it. And I think you have to downregulate it, upregulate it, and be conscious of it. You can't have it destroy you, but you can't come across as not caring because people do sense that. And, you know, during the analysis of a deal, You can't let too much emotion into it. Did that sound easy? It's not easy. And a lot of people get burnt out because of it. They care too much about certain things that they shouldn't and not enough about the things that they should. So maybe if— how do you regulate this? I think on the big deals, you probably want to up it. On the small ones, you might want to downregulate it. But also think of it as how well you're doing in sales, because this emotional part, some people just don't get it. And when it comes across as just a transaction, you're going to get treated like a sales rep. And this is another thing that people don't seem to get, that if you act like a salesperson, You're going to get treated like one. How do you treat a salesperson? Because most people feel like if somebody's out solely for their own interest, no one's going to care about them. Because this caring becomes reciprocal, meaning the rapport you want with your clients is not sales rep-client. That's the worst rapport. You could have with them. What you want is a partner-in-crime type relationship where you both are aligned on helping that company, your client's company, get better with your product and service. And that change is not easy. It's not natural. It is unnatural. And to learn how to keep it going and keep the momentum, you got to check out Winning the Complex Sale. Closing it down, baby. There's a video on it, an overview, in the show notes below. And do you have enough meetings? Wouldn't you like to be able to start a conversation and get a meeting with your ideal customers all day long in a systematic way? Oh, heaven, Brian. Just heaven. I'd care about that. Well, go check out Start the Conversation, Get the Meetings. And as I announced in the intro, they both have community options within the learning management system right now. So they're a living thing. It's not the type of course where you just take it and you apply it, hopefully. It's— you get core content that you take and you understand the principles. And then there's office hours and our meetup every other Friday that's recorded and put in the course. And all All of them are in there. So you get all this discussion about it, case studies, and nobody's in it with easy stuff because it's all self-funded by reps. The only people that are in it are people who really have a hard time, not because of them, but because nobody knows what they do. Nobody recognizes their company name. Nobody recognizes their name. So how do you get that to scale? Start the conversation, get the meeting. Becoming good at it, like any skill, is the hard part. So you get a whole year of one-on-ones and office hours to listen to and participate in, and the community now. So go check it out.

That's it.

Make sure you're checking out the other shows and our friends over at Scratchpad. They've really helped out the show this year. It takes a lot to put this on, you know. A lot of bookers trying to get the greatest guests in the world. So I really appreciate their help. So go to scratchpad.com or just go down in the show notes and hit the link there. Check it out. Tell anybody that you know who's suffering with Salesforce to also check it out. We'll see you next time.

I was just going to give a bit of a testimonial if that's all right, just to kick it off. Just—

Only if it's positive.

No, it is positive. It was a— yeah, just because I started the course, I think in June of last year, 2021. I got a few more months left of access, which is good. But I feel like it's been a transformative experience in my own personal and professional life. I was able to go from a period of a low sales slump in the middle of last year, in the summer and early fall, and then really was able to then come back and exceed my target by the end of the, by the end of the 4th quarter. And so the only other thing I would say is that it's also really differentiated me amongst people on the sales team in terms of focus and clarity of what's important. And now I feel really good about what I'm doing in terms of the approach of reaching out to customers and having those conversations and being focused as opposed to just doing a lot of the other busy work on the side, like organizing resources and doing business analytics and all this other stuff. And so it's really been a noticeable difference with our executive team at my company. And so I just want to thank you for the content and for these opportunities. And so I hope that helps if there's anybody new. It's— I'm a work in progress, but it's getting better.

Good.

Yeah.

And you're selling pretty hard stuff.