HOW THIS REP HAS MASTERED BUILDING RAPPORT TO CLOSE DEALS

Today we got another great interview. We talk about sales so much, so deep, and I think too many people today, it's the robotic sales activity, the motions and the plays and the go-to-market. Remember when it was just sales and marketing? Now it's go-to-market. But we've lost the humanness, the connection that we have with our clients. That rapport. And too many people think of it as, oh, well, I don't want to be their friend. But you do want to be friendly because the magic happens when 2 people connect. When they start talking about what each other cares about, it turns into a business conversation. And from that business conversation, the possibilities emerge. This is the magic of selling. This is why companies hire salespeople. Today, they've forgotten it. It's all about data, keeping track and accounting for all these people who will never buy, which always mystifies me. It's like, why don't we spend the time on the people who will buy instead of documenting all these people who will never buy? That's a different topic for a different podcast. Let's get into this interview. I think you're really going to like this gentleman. Great stories, great examples that you can take away and apply today. But don't have that, I know this, I've done this. If you have, great. Become better at it. Think about it differently. Take your game to the next level. And if you're in my courses, make sure you're checking out those office hours. There's a A new one posted every other Friday. The one-on-ones are posted every week. It's a living course. If you're not in, what's your, what's your issue? Oh, you don't have time? You have time to lose deals. Why not make time to close deals?

Hey, Tony, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Absolutely. It's great to be here, Brian. Um, background on myself. I've been in sales now for over 25 years. I'm currently the Vice President of Sales with Heartland. I coach youth sports. I'm really big on leadership development. And I love having fun fishing, going out with my family, kids, and just— that's a little background on me.

Yeah. And why sales for you?

You know, I think it was the one vehicle I felt that I can go ahead and write my own story.

Yeah, it is.

I, I sort of fell into it. I think my dad, um, because when I was younger, um, we worked in— we did field work. And I get up at 4 o'clock in the morning and we go hoe sugar beets in 100-degree weather.

Farming field work.

Farming field work. And after the jobs were done, My dad would go knock on farmers' doors to get jobs for the whole crew.

Yeah.

And like, whenever I wanted something, he's like, all right, let's go figure it out. And either go knock on people's doors to mow their lawns, rake their lawns, I'd pick up aluminum cans. So I think that was the beginning of, hey, let's go ahead and try this out. And plus, a lot of people really sowed into me. and encouraged me in the roles that I was in.

Yeah. Plus, that's real work. You know, I worked on a farm one summer, and it is baling hay. I don't know if you've ever done that. As a little teenage skinny kid, picking up a good 60-pound bale of hay and stacking it all day. Real work.

Oh, and it's— I think it's one of those things when Those days, I'm like, oh my gosh, like, this is crazy. You know, my dad always made it fun. He made competitions and—

Yeah.

But I'll never forget the day when I got home that night. I was probably 11 years old. I looked down in the carpet and our carpet was green and I was seeing sugar beet plants in the carpet.

That's a little too much sugar beet, huh?

I'm like, okay, Dad, I gotta be done with this. Like, I'm gonna put up, retire my garden home, you know?

And how long did it take you before you got good at sales?

I'm still working on getting good at sales.

It's not easy, is it?

No. You know, I think it's one of those things that you can go to sales conferences, leadership conferences, and you're like, oh, this isn't really new. And I think sometimes, and you listen to your podcast, it's, It's not about something new and fancy. It's about being reminded of what you already know.

Yeah.

And I think one of the mistakes I've made along the way is sometimes despise the things that got me to where I'm at.

It is a lot of just consistency and doing what you, you know, is right, but you don't feel like doing it. Because there's not that reward immediately.

All right.

You're selling something that's pretty hard right now, aren't you?

Well, you know, I think that's a perspective, but people would say it's hard, like, you know, payment processing, you know, because they're like, it's a competitive world, competitive, you know. But I think, at least the ways that we're, we've been doing it, is really providing like customer-led solutions. that makes that business owner's life better, like figuring ways to like reduce their risk and liabilities, like streaming, like they're streamlining like the operations and growing their business. If I didn't have that, it'd be even harder.

Well, when I look at a hard sale, I look at like, what persona are you selling to? And I got to imagine finance and HR, they're tough. Folks, they're not very social. They're not very—

Well, yeah, I think you're— this is true. I mean, I can share your stories. They'd be like, oh my goodness.

And maybe I don't see what happens after 5, huh?

Right? It's like, I mean, there's a story on there. Forget it. I was training a new hire. And actually, this is being recorded. I can admit this, that Tony went back to young Tony ways. And we're— we did a drop-in on this retail store. And the moment we walk in there, the lady behind the counter said these first words to the sales rep I was with. You know, it's rude to have sunglasses on your head if you're talking to a woman. Oh, okay.

You didn't know that?

I'm like, I didn't have that in my handbook. And I just decided, okay, let's make fun of it. Let's make a laughter of it, you know? And, um, we didn't get the appointment, right? But we ended on a good note because I want to make it— leave it better than when I came. And we're walking outside her door and some of our customers are, you know, showing off the new purchases they made at the store. So I'm like, oh, this is so cool. I took a picture with them.

Yeah.

I come back a week later to show them like what they're doing is good, like people enjoy their work. And instead of a lady behind the counter It was a man behind the counter. I'm like, hey, I stopped in here last week. He goes, yeah, I know, you obviously can't read the sign.

Uh-oh.

And I'm like— he goes, no soliciting. What was on the other door next door to them.

Yeah.

And I don't know what it did, Brian, because I literally had this— my— the picture on my phone ready to show him. And he said a couple other things. It triggered the old Tony. I'm like, you know, you don't even know why I came in here. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Oh, there you go.

Yeah. And then when those words escaped, when my inside voice escaped to the outside, I was like, oh my gosh. So I— he backed down. And at that moment when I was like, oh my, I can't believe I just did that. He went off on me. He's like, you have no place to judge. My wife just left me with my kid. And I'm like, whoa. Like, and he just stormed off. Now, I had other things in my, my, inside my mind that I was thinking about saying, but I held back. Um, but afterwards, like, I'm training a new hire and we're walking out. He's like, whoa, that was intense. And I'm like, you know what? We're not going to end the day on that note. So we're walking down another block. There's an auto tire place. He saw us last week. He goes, you know, guys, his door was open. I want to say how much I appreciate and respect what you do because it's 90 degrees out and you guys are still out there knocking on doors. I couldn't do that. I respect you for doing that.

Yeah.

I'm like, we're ending on a high note. And then later I ended up sending the guy an apology note too. because I'm like, I'm sorry, man. Like, I know what triggered me.

Well, that's it. Because everybody thinks there's a magic approach. And so much of it is just breaking through the persona, the, the falseness of the situation, because that guy, he wasn't mad at you. He was mad at what's going on in his personal life. He's hurt. So you were the first person to touch that hurt. You didn't know. You're innocent. So he took it out. That's, you know, like being in traffic. You don't know what people are going through.

Right.

Now, what were some of the milestones along your development as a salesperson?

That's a good question. Um, what were some of the milestones?

I think— Like a big deal or a mentor or—

Yeah, I think one of the first things that, you know, helped me out, I was at this sales conference, brand new sales, and this guy on stage was speaking, you know, he was doing incredible work. And, you know, I was 18 years old, 19 years old. I went up to him afterwards. I'm like, man, I want what you have. Like, tell me. And he's like, Are you really serious or are you just interested? I go, no, man, I'm serious, man. Because I mean, I grew up with very little growing up. And he goes, all right, first thing you gotta do is become more relatable. I'm like, okay, tell me more.

Yeah.

I had this really loud purple shirt on. I had all this interesting goatee going on. And he goes, that's the distraction. He goes, the second thing, you need to start reading. Read every single day. And don't tell me you don't ever have time, because everyone has time. He goes, you do those 2 things to start, come back to me. So that night I went home and went to Salvation Army, bought a white dress shirt, and I stood in the mirror going, am I really going to do this? I'm gonna do it. I shaved. Next day I show up, he sees me in a room of 500, 600 people, maybe probably more. He had me stand up in front of them and said, this guy is going places. And he goes, did you get your book yet? I go, I have not got my book yet. He was talking about this book called Unstoppable by Cynthia Kersey. And he says, come on up. And he signed that book and he said, you're gonna do big things. And that really gave me the confidence, like, you know what, I can do this. And I then also, along that line, I did Kirby sales, vacuum sales.

That's good. That's great experience.

It was fantastic experience. I answered a blind ad, general manager. I walk in, the guy's in this nice suit. The future of this neighborhood.

Yeah.

And I walk in, I get my first day of training. I walk in the room and there's 4 chairs and a Kirby vacuum cleaner sitting there. I'm like, what's that about? And, but what I learned from that is Also the power of personal development, right? And second, the power of systems. Yes, like, you don't have to recreate the wheel. There's tons of resources out there. If you follow a system, it allows you to scale. So those were like some pivotal moments that really helped me. So, and I did incredibly well. You know, I just trusted the process, so to speak.

Because a lot of people misinterpret what that gentleman said to you. You— some people would have taken it like, well, I'll wear my facial hair any way I want, and what's wrong with this shirt? He's wrong, I'm not wrong. You took it the right way, with— he was trying to help you, make you more relatable.

Mhm.

And all of a sudden, the reading isn't just for knowledge, It's for understanding how the world works.

Awareness, awareness.

And the system, was it the Kirby system?

Was there—

It was the Kirby system. So actually, I worked at McDonald's in the restaurant business prior. So they have a phenomenal system. And they said, know the system, you want to get promoted, know the system. Okay. And then the Kirby system, I had to go ahead and it was 101 questions to ask. And if you did 100 dirt pads in your demonstration, so you vacuum and it has a dirt pad console, and it shows the dirt to the customer that their, their vacuum sucks. And if you pull 100 dirt pads and go through all these questions, you're not going to sell value, you're going to build value.

Yeah.

And I did incredibly well. That's why I was like, I gotta get 100 dirt pads. I gotta ask these questions. And I would literally in my car prior to every appointment, I'd read the questions. Okay. All right. All right. And it's like you're putting on a show.

Yeah.

So that was huge.

And how did that translate? Because you, you're certainly doing business to business right now, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So it's, is it easier or harder or?

You know, I think the biggest challenge, one of the biggest challenges people have to overcome Is being mindful of their brain trash.

What were some of yours?

Um, at the time that I was too young, um, and that was a self-imposed limiting belief.

Yep. A lot of people got that one.

And who am I to add value to people? Like, I'm not no big college graduate. I didn't do all these things. Like, I was in business and I failed in business like 5, 6 times. I had a couple successful businesses.

Yeah.

So it was a worthiness thing that I had to get over. And I think the third thing is that, you know, you see in the movies these slick-talking salespeople, right? They're great at talking. Well, I mumble, I talk fast, I use wrong English. But I realized the best salespeople are the ones who make it about the person sitting across from them. And They're phenomenal listeners. And it just like my— one of my great deals, you talk about impact deals I had, it was a bridal studio. And before that, I was talking to one of my mentors. He said, Tony, if you simply listen, they'll tell you how you can help them. And it was a 52-minute appointment. I spoke for maybe 5 minutes of it. And she said, let's get started. That's it. And I was like, huh.

Everybody thinks it's the perfect PowerPoint presentation that, like an infomercial. And it's like, no, no. If you get the right questions and you show interest and curiosity about somebody else, the magic happens.

Yeah. I say, and I teach this, I go, You know, you hear the phrase ABC, classic phrase, always be closing. And I get it. And I used to do the always be closing. But then as I evolved and made a lot of mistakes, I now say ABC, always be curious.

Yeah, it's much better.

Because curiosity and resistance cannot coexist.

It's true. Now, how did you get over the— other than growing up and becoming older, get over the limiting belief that you were too young?

When I had a merchant, it was a flower and gift store, slash tuxedo store, slash mechanic store. I started originally from North Dakota. I sat down with her, and I didn't know everything about this business that we're in right now. I've been in this role, in this business, in this industry now going on 16 years.

Yeah.

And I had a 3-hour meeting with her, and all I did was keep on asking questions. And, and towards the end of that meeting, she got very emotional and said to me, I cannot say thank you enough for caring. And she gave me this big hug, and she goes, you have no idea the impact you've made on me in my business. And I was like, all right, like, that's— I get an opportunity to make a difference every day. And that's a choice.

Well, that's it. Because today, so many reps are taught how to do a discovery call. But, you know, who wants to be interrogated? Right? Yeah, right. You feel like you're in a police station. Okay, so where were you last night between the hours of And it's true, as opposed to like the bridal shop. It's like, how did this bridal shop come about? What was the impetus to start it?

Right. And that was it. 1979, she started the business. And she just, you know, retired here just the last couple months here. Still, I'm still connected with her, actually. And she was first my, one of my advertising clients. And then she became one of my payment processing clients. But I think, you know, when you're leading with the mindset, it's not about me, it's about the person sitting across from me. And like, get away from that commission breath. And like, I, I do a discovery, but the thing is, when I'm sitting down with you, Brian, I'm asking you, hey, listen, you know, you agreed to set this meeting. One, I'm curious why you agreed to set it. And some people just say, well, you're persistent as heck.

Yeah, that's what I usually say.

All right, we're right back. Or they'll, they'll magically tell me. Then I'll say to them another power question. So based on that, Brian, what's the outcome you want to get out of today?

Yeah.

And then they tell me because they haven't been asked that question.

Right? Everyone else is pushing. So how do you do payroll today? What are your payroll issues? They're like, none.

Because I'm not going to be sold by you. Right. And until you give— you hold space for somebody— and don't get me wrong, I understand there's a certain sector of business owners that I don't care all the fancy things I can say there, they look at you as a commodity.

Of course.

And it's about price-driven, and they're good for somebody else. And I tell them that I'm okay with that. You know, I got to own me and I get the people that I get to, you know, partner with and develop in leadership. Like we talk about, like, you got to hold yourself high. You don't have to do business with everybody.

Oh, you don't.

You know, and if they're, you know, and sometimes people have bad days and I get it, you know, it's not my place to judge.

And nor can you do business with everybody.

No.

So why not focus on the people that you want to do business with and want to do business with you and go deeper and deeper?

And I think too, in like in sales, you know, when resistance meets resistance, you're not gonna get anywhere.

No.

Right. If, if you don't rapport, forget about it. Like rapport is the number one step and then you gotta establish some credibility and some expectations, right?

Yeah.

But I love to laugh with them. They go, no, I haven't been full-time in a sales role for a while, but when I still go out, they'll go, you're the 50th person who called me today. And I'm thinking in the back of my head, the 50th? I mean, that's a lot of time away from your business. I go, really? They go, oh my gosh, yeah. I go, that's crazy. They go, yeah, and you're all the same. I'm like, you're pretty good at judging people. And we laugh about it and they're like, okay, okay, okay. But I think sometimes we just forget to be who we are. If you're quirky, own your quirkiness.

Right.

You know, leverage it. You know, you, you've got a gift and it's been meant to share. And I think with sales, If you truly care, I mean, some people are transactional sales and some people are relationship sales. But even if it's a one-time sale, you can still create a relationship because if you build the relationships, the money always follows.

It does. And without the relationship, you are a commodity and they're not gonna switch because you're a little bit less expensive.

No.

Or you have one more feature. No, they're gonna switch because they trust you. They have confidence in you. They see that you care about them, not the deal. And that's where the magic happens.

And it's the consistency of showing up like you've done, you know, with what you've done, Nick. If you want others to show up for you, you gotta show up for them. And sometimes you're not knowing that you're showing up for them.

Yeah. And a lot of people get consistency wrong. They think just because they go to work every day, they're consistent.

Right?

That's kind of consistent, but it's not what we're talking about.

No. Like just on Saturday, it was a Saturday. Oh, Saturday. I think it was Saturday. We went to sushi and this is a business that, you know, I would love to have part of our portfolio as a partner with us. And I've been going there for six months, and then he each time I'm in there now, he keeps on telling me. He goes, "Man," he goes, "We need to start making some money. Like one of my partners left. This person left." I'm like, "Wow!" And he sits there and talks to us for like thirty minutes about all the problems he was having. And he, for the first time, he asked me, "What do I do?" And he I go. Well, I do a lot of things, but really what I have a passion for is helping people with their business so they can live a better life and create some income in their business and grow their business. He's like, oh, tell me more about that. And it was just the truth. Like, we're standing at his front counter and I go, well, for example, you know, you process payments. And this is what he said to me next. He's like, Tony, I'm gonna give you the number of this guy. He goes, people call me every day. And they want to save me money. I don't really care about saving money. I care that this works. I care that when my servers go in here and put in their order, it gets to the back kitchen. I care that it's up in my busiest times.

Yeah.

All these people trying to save me money. He goes, it's like saying, you know, you constantly fart. You know? Well, and I'm like, I mean, he just, he just built, he just brought it through the front door. But then he gave me the number. He goes, you see if you could work with him. And also, I want to sit down and talk to you about some other things we're doing with our business, see if you can help me out. So I went from a customer to a possible vendor to now to a partner. And there's a difference between partners and partnerships.

And what I got out of that is that, and a lot of sales reps don't get, is that they're not always looking to save money or new features. They're looking for less problems. They don't want to think about it. They just want it to work. And, and this is what really gets in the way of closing a lot of deals, because when we're selling something new, That transition is scary.

100%.

Because it's not gonna work for a short period of time. It might be only an hour.

Right.

But that's scary.

So you—

And you're battling their past experiences. Right.

If they know how it works today and they're okay with it, you're selling change. You're not selling cost savings.

That's so well said. That is so well said.

And change is scary.

And it's an automatic part of life. But, you know, right, progress isn't though. Progress isn't. Right.

Time goes on. It doesn't wait for anybody. There's no break on time.

But I think too, is like, you know, mastering the art of caring makes a difference. And that's when the reading comes into play. Because, you know, I get stuck. And I'm blinded. I have my blinders on. I don't know. But all of a sudden I read, I'm like, oh, oh yeah, forgot about that. Why did I ever stop doing that? And it's not like you have to read 1,000 books a day or 1,000 pages a day. It's just picking up for 10 minutes or listen to something positive like a podcast. And, you know, The things that we put, read, and we listen to is also food for our mentalness, mental mindset side of things. And then, you know, garbage in, garbage out.

Right. Because too many reps get stuck in the, I know this versus I can apply it and I understand it and it's part of me now. Because sales, it's a performance. Right. In your sushi example, right, you're not trying to sell him. You're just conversing with them. Your intent was to have a delicious meal. It wasn't to close a deal.

No. And I think too, people think about this closing as an event.

Right.

And what you're actually doing is you're not closing a deal. You're opening up a relationship.

Yes.

And it begins in that first interaction. And I think that's what's missed a lot of times. I mean, I know I missed it numerous times. You know, you're the salesperson that walks in the door, you're a little bit disheveled, you know, you're late, you're looking at your phone. Right? You know, the good old— okay, all right. And then, you know, you're having a conversation with them. And I literally had an interview, Brian, not too long ago. There's notifications going off. And they're looking at their phone like, oh, I'm so excited to come join your team. Yeah. Well, guess what, buddy?

Hold on, I just got a like on Instagram.

Yeah, right. And I think too, it's like too, in sales, people gotta learn to fail fast. You fail fast, you'll learn fast.

Yeah. Now, on the process side, how has that evolved?

Oh, a lot, at least for us.

Yeah.

It used to be as simple as get a little box. You go to store, you run a credit card on a little box. Okay. Great. Approved. It and it was just like you're just moving money. Yeah. Now if you're in this space right here. And not providing quote unquote like a solution to re— really help make that business better and improve the life of that business owner and their employees. Yeah, you're gonna get a couple deals doing this one, but long-lasting relationships you get with this one. So having customer-led like solutions and technology that actually becomes part of the business, an integral piece of the business, that's where we're at today.

Yeah.

And if you're just a one-trick pony, man, you said it was hard business earlier. Oh, I pity— Well, that's it.

Because in the first one, you're walking right into the commodity trap. And then, then what is it? It's cost availability. And it's just a race to the bottom.

It is. And that's a lot of work. I mean, I did it, don't get me wrong, until I really learned and had my aha moments. Just to, you know, listen. And I read this many years ago, Brian. There's a reason why listen and silent contain the same letters.

You're good at it. I noticed that. You take a nice long pause after each, which takes— that's a conscious effort.

Yes.

Because everybody else is voice activated. When they hear someone else talk, they gotta talk.

That's how ethics work.

What do you think is your strongest sales characteristic?

Um, strongest sales characteristic? Well, now in my role now is I'm a problem solver. Like, the ability to help people remove their barriers to get what they want.

Yeah.

I think that's been things in terms of like developing leaders and then giving them, helping them develop a system and a process that allows them to scale. Because without it, you know, you can hustle your way to $100,000, but if you truly want to do game-changing, um, things, you got to have a system And a process that allows you to manage and scale.

Yeah, because I equate it to imagine going out on a playing field and everybody just doing what comes intuitively instead of playing the game. Because the game has rules and systems and steps. And there's typically a referee.

I gotta write that down.

But in sales, we don't have that. It's like we have folklore, war stories, platitudes. And I was like, I was an engineer. I was like, I can't go with platitudes, right? The computer doesn't take platitudes. I gotta like write a program. And if I don't do it right, it's just a mess to maintain. You gotta break it down into little simple little steps, test each step so you can figure out where it's going wrong. And how to get it better. And too many people just think it's, you know, first meeting, proof of concept, propose, negotiate, close. Well, maybe at the highest of high levels, right? There's a million things that go wrong in each step. How do you take those micro steps and keep it moving so it feels natural and organic?

Well, going back to what you talked about earlier is getting that knowledge and that awareness. And reflection.

Yes.

Because I think so many times we're, we're hurrying, going to next deal.

And we walk right into the ghosting trap where we give the proposal and we have no next step. And all of a sudden, hey, just checking in, wanted to get your feedback. Tell me how things are going. And they're like, they don't need to talk to you anymore. They got everything and they're looking at it as an option. They're not against it, but they're not for it either.

And I think too, is my goal is, okay, I gotta find like 5 to 8 different ways I can add value to this business. Yes. It's, and that back to my Kirby days, right? I had to pull all those 100 dirt pads.

Because like, like with the sushi owner, he has, he wants to talk to you because Tony has ideas. He's got a network. He sees how other people have done this. His recommendations and insights and ideas Have value. It's not just the payroll.

No, it has nothing. It had nothing to do with the payroll or the payment processing. Zero, zilch. Is that you know? He he says, you know, Tony, I'm so thankful that you come in. Like, like every time I swear I've gone in there, we have a thirty forty five minute conversation, and all I'm asking him is questions because I truly care about his business. Like, right. He's a business owner. He's got 4 kids. And he's like, this is not good for the family. But I've got to be here because we're not making enough money.

Have someone else be here.

You know, so I'm thinking, I just speaking this out loud, like, man, what could I do to give this guy back more time? So his business increases, so he can hire another employee to be there on a Saturday versus him, like, but it takes a while to get that. And I think one of the hardest lessons I learned, it was, it was an HVAC company. And I did the good old, you know, I would bring a preparation, right? Just like a doctor, you know, bring your notes. And I was still newer. I was going through the, you know, interrogation. He'd say an answer, I go, okay. Say an answer, and then go, okay. All right, you check my box.

Have you ever had diabetes? Yeah.

And then he leans back in his chair, he goes, Tony, you're, you're a nice guy, but can I tell you something? I'm like, sure. He goes, this is going to help you in sales. I'm like, all right. When you choose to listen versus putting all your attention on that sheet, you're gonna do a lot better. Yeah. I was like, I'm like, of course I asked him, what do you mean conversations? And he goes, you just need to wait a little bit for me to finish my answer because I have more to give you.

Right. Because what's on that sheet is somewhat interesting, but what he has to say is more interesting.

Right. Well, and I have analogy. You're either the dump truck or the doctor and diagnose. And the dump truck pours it all out. I mean, if we think about the doctors that we've connected the best with, is the ones who listen, who took their time and showed they care. If you look at malpractice suits, I literally had this happen. My son was 3 years old, ear infection. Doctor walks in, he has this wall covered for most Patients seen in a day record.

Oh great, that helps you.

Yeah, he looks at his note, his his folder says, "Oh, looks like there's a series of ear infections here. We got to put ear tubes in. We can do it right here in office. Same day surgery, no problem." I'm like, talking about my son? He's like, "Yeah." I'm like, "This is the first time we've ever been here, and it's first ear infection he's ever had." He was a dumpster guy.

And did you feel he had your best interest in mind or his best interest in mind?

His best interest.

Unquestionably, right?

Unquestionable.

Right. So where does trust go after you hear that? Right out the window, right?

Yeah, it's forget about it. Forget about it. Yeah. But I think it takes work though. And there's times which I have conversations— just yesterday I had a conversation with someone, and when I reflected back on that, I'm like, man, I could have been more present in that conversation.

It's so critical, and it— you have to have a level of confidence to, to be there because, because you're waiting to put the dump truck up. You ready? Okay, here's the right moment. Because you think this, what's in the dump truck is value to you, but what they're telling you is what's valuable to them. And that's what matters because they're the ones who are going to decide to buy or not buy.

That's awesome.

And now you contrast it to the sushi chef or sushi owner. He knew that you had his best interest in mind because how the restaurant is run doesn't really have impact on the quality of the sushi for you. He's still going to keep the same quality. You cared about helping him and he sensed that. That's where the magic happens.

And where I hear people say, It's like, well, Tony, I need to earn some money. And, and I get it, man. Like, I've sat across many tables and Brian sitting across the table from me was my car payment, was my mortgage payment. Like, you— he's got to come do this. He's got to come do this, right? And I think one, you got to have a system and process to trust. And just knowing, like, if I just do the good work, good results happen. And that takes a lot of faith.

It does. And you have to get rid of the belief that the dump truck— yes, it's faster, but it's not as effective.

Right.

So ask yourself, before I unload all the gravel, let me ask myself, is this going to help or hurt?

Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's, there's the book called, um, How I Raised Myself from Failure to Success in Selling, one of my favorite books, and I recommend all the time. And what I learned from the author in that, and it's all-time classic, he says after you've uncovered their needs and wants and desires, share with them what you learned. And then simply ask them one simple question. In addition to these items, what else? And I remember the first time I did, because, you know, I'm, I'm just, I'm gonna study, right? Okay, this sounds good. Let's try it.

Yeah.

And this courtyard, Melsted Courtyard Cafe, Grand Cities Mall. And I did that. He started telling me more. I'm like, wow. And he told me more. Like, I kept on writing and he just kept on sharing. He goes, well, what else you guys do? What else you guys do? I was like, huh, I thought I uncovered everything, but I hadn't yet. Because most people just want to talk. Not many people— like they say, the higher you go up the chain, the lonelier it gets. And it gets like, oh man, like entrepreneur island, so to speak. And they just want someone to talk to, like Because they can't talk to their employees all the time about the crap that's happening.

Because they don't care.

Right. Sometimes they don't want to talk to their significant other because they're freaked. They're thinking that, oh my God, they're gonna say we gotta close the business. And so you can go ahead there and just simply hold space for somebody. You may not get the sale, but you're going to build a relationship. And in my experience, I've been amazed at how many times they'll still keep on coming back.

Yep. Cool. Hey, Tony, I really appreciate your time today. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

It's simple. Just find me on LinkedIn. Look for Tony Jalen. You'll see a guy sitting there in the chair and just connect with me there. Brian, thanks a million for having me on, my friend.

I told you it was going to be good, didn't I? Now, that organic, natural conversation— now, is that about being friendly? Yeah. Is it about building a friendship? Well, it's up to you. Too many people get locked into that, that you just want to do the transaction. And you can do that if someone comes to you and has already decided that they need to make a change, but that's not very often. Now, is it? And when they do come to you, they're also looking at 3 other people.

Uh-oh.

Now you've got to compete for the business. And they've got this preconceived stuff in their mind. It may be true. Most likely it's not. And they want to view you as a commodity. Tell me the price. How much does it cost? Those sound like buying questions, but they're commodity. And how do you get back to value? Now, we're all talking about value today, but what we see as value doesn't matter. It's what they see as value. And how do we get them to focus on that? We've got to have that trust, that know, like, and trust. That's the only thing that salespeople and sales experts seem to agree on. But how do you build it? How do you start from where you are and build into it? What if I'm not charismatic? How about if you could learn how to be, how to be empathetic and curious in a systematic way without sounding like a robot? Today you're trained to be a robot. I see all the stuff, motions and plays and— Oh God. Stop it. The do dumb things faster dot com has taken over the sales profession because what they assume is if you're doing a hundred a day and it's not working, you must do two hundred, three hundred, four hundred. But the more dumb things you do takes up your time away from doing the smart things. And when I see that. I clearly see somebody who doesn't understand how people buy, and they don't understand how to sell. We hire salespeople because we want them to connect with our prospects, understand, build trust, openness. Open communication is selling. It's not just answering questions and handling objections. That's what everybody wants you to think it is, but that's not how people buy. Is that how you buy? You want to talk with somebody anytime you're looking at something new. You know, if you're looking for a new house, a new car, vacation, whatever it is, you do research. You want to learn about how does it work, what are my options, what are the traps, what are the misrepresentations.

This looks good.

It looks good, but is there anything to it? And a lot of companies do great with the marketing and the branding, and it looks great, but then it doesn't work the way people want it to, or it doesn't work, period. Building up these skills are critical. And we're at a time where people say, oh, I'll do it next year. Oh, I don't have time.

But Yeah.

Is that really true? Aren't we just making excuses, rationalizations, which are really the main obstacle to our own success in life? We have false beliefs, and I hear them all the time, especially in salespeople, because what our brain does is it's really uncomfortable when we don't feel like we know something. Well, we're not feeling secure and safe. And what it'll do, it'll create a situation, an explanation, so that we do, even if it's not true, even if it has no basis in fact. And it may feel good, but it's just a delusion. What we need to do is be focused on becoming better and better every day. Becoming curious about how we can become better. Be a little bit vulnerable every day. And then we all of a sudden see the magic. The magic happens when we're connecting with another person, when we have that open, honest, transparent conversation. I'm sure you've had it with friends and stuff, but what if you could have it with prospects? What if they weren't treating you like a vendor, like a commodity. That's what I teach in Start the Conversation, Get the Meeting. Now, it's a living course. It's not, you know, just a couple of hours of videos. It's an in-depth understanding about how strangers build up a know, like, and trust relationship that turns into a business conversation. To say it's magic is not an overstatement. The people who really invest their time in it, and I see them when they come in and I see them when they leave, the transformation is great because they've— I broke it down into tiny little steps that anybody can learn. I've taught it to non-salespeople, entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs, college graduates, people right out of school who are just starting a career. And the hardest people to teach are experienced salespeople because we've been taught the pitch, the push, the cold call openers, the spam, and it's just been overdone for the last 25 years. And you may think, uh, you, you know this already. And okay, look at your results. How many meetings are you getting? The industry standard right now is 1 to 2 cold outbound meetings per week for an SDR. That's considered successful. Now, I would consider that an enormous failure if you can't get 4 or 5 times that. If not more, in a whole lot less time, in a systematic way, without having to pick up the phone. People want to talk, but they don't want to talk about you. They want to talk about themselves. So how do we initiate that? How do we spur that and trigger that? I can teach you how so that you can be comfortable with a predictable, repeatable That's not based off of just sheer grinding out spam and robocalls. It's a smarter way of doing it. If you like just grinding and hitting your head against the wall, have fun and put a helmet on. If you want to learn how people buy, that's what you're here for, and I want to help you with that. Let's say you have a great pipeline, but it's not progressing. You want to get paid. Remember, we only get paid if we get closed deals. Yeah, you get your nice little cushy base, but that ain't enough to live on. You want big deals done in a predictable manner. To understand where you are and where you're going, and this is something that nobody else teaches because it takes a long time to understand it. You have to understand how companies Companies buy, not just how to present and demo and propose and then get ghosted. I teach you how they buy and how to keep momentum and control over that process because you only get paid if you close. That's Winning the Complex Sale or Closing the Complex Sale. You can find them both at b2brevenue.com. The letter B, the number B, the number 2, the letter B, and then my favorite word, revenue.com. And look in the show notes. There's a couple of examples of students that have been in the course that have also been on the podcast sharing the success that they've had with it. And I know you're going to come up with your little excuses, but just keep them to yourself. I'm not interested in hearing them. Because I know they're lies and I just roll my eyes and I don't have time for lies. I want to deal with the truth, the brutal truth. And the brutal truth is your income is the judgment of how well you're doing. How many cold outbound meetings are you getting this week? Well, it's a short week. Okay, how about the week before? Well, I was tired. Okay, how about the week before that?

Well, we had a meeting.

Okay, okay, you see where I'm going here, right? We need to be able to get meetings and conversations started without having to worry about all these obstacles. Get serious about your career. The time's going to go by no matter what. A year from now, if you take the courses, you'll be successful. If you don't, who knows? But you're going to just be a year older. Sign up today. All right, tell a friend about the show. Make sure you're checking out the sales questions, brutally honest answers. If you see my stuff fly by on LinkedIn, I'd appreciate a little like, a little comment, a little share. I know you're so busy. Who has time for that, Brian? But I would appreciate it. See you next time.