HOW TO BECOME #1 BY SELLING SMARTER VS JUST WORKING HARDER

Work hard. Don't we hear that a lot in sales? That's the advice that when I started to do my training business, I saw all the competitors, all the sales trainers, instructors, coaches, thought leaders. Just work hard. Outwork your competition. And I said to myself, well, that's what I focused on in the first few years of sales until I got sick. Meaning that Okay, you can push your biological existence so hard and so fast for so long, and then it breaks down. And I'm talking about when I was in my 20s, not, not at this ripe old age in my late 30s here today. Uh, so where does that leave us? Well, I think we all know that we have to work hard, but then we get tired of working hard. And when we work hard and we don't get results, We get upset. We get disappointed. We get depressed. We start to wonder, is it the company? Is it the product? Is it me? Well, one of those you have control over. And then you start to look for smarter ways of doing it. You know, focus on the people who are most likely to be interested. Focus on the deals that are most likely to close in the order they're most likely to close. Not the ones that want to talk or the ones that have a pretty logo or would make you look like the hero by closing it if it was closable. We all get stuck in those traps early in our career, and hopefully we work our way out of it. And that's the topic today, because at the beginning of this interview, you might sound like the work harder mantra. But it really evolves into the work smart mantra. But to work smart, we have to become smarter. We have to model somebody who's doing things in a smarter way. And that's the conversation today because there's no limit on how smart you can work. Nobody said, hey, calm down. You're going to go to the hospital. You're going to die of a coronary if you keep working this smart. No one says that. So why not focus on the one that's infinite instead of the one that's finite? You can only work 24 hours in a day, even if you don't need sleep. There's no 25th hour. But you could sit down for 30 minutes and come up with a smarter way of working that, couldn't you? Couldn't you?

I could.

And that's where I really get excited about sales. Because sales, if you embrace that mentality, that mindset, there's no limit. Let's get into it. Before we do, if you're in the courses, make sure you check out the office hours and the one-on-ones. You get the smartphone app. If you haven't downloaded it, the instructions are in the first chapter. Super simple. Just follow them precisely. There's really just 3 steps, but people tend to forget the last one, and then they contact me, and then I tell them, but it's easier if you just take the 3rd step yourself. Don't have to contact me, and you get in there faster. If you're not in the courses, you got to ask yourself why. Do you have too many meetings? Do you have too many deals? Too much income? Those are the only excuses. The rest of it is you just lying to yourself. So stop lying and sign up today. Why not? What's the downside? A little bit of effort, a little bit of coin, not much, but you get better and smarter.

Here we go.

Hey, Michael, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Yeah, thanks for having me, Brian. So a little bit of background on me. I originally grew up in Kansas City in a family of 6. So I'm the oldest of 4 with triplet siblings and grew up born and raised Kansas City, went to the University of Kansas. I now reside in Denver, Colorado with my wife of 4 years and our 7-month-old daughter. In my extracurriculars, I'm a board member with Make-A-Wish Colorado. And in my sales career, I originally started in CPG sales and then quickly pivoted to SaaS and software sales at a company called Paycom. They're an HR and payroll company. That was from 2014 to 2017. And then I switched to PLG sales. So I worked for Zoom from May of 2017 through April of 2023. At Zoom, I was the number one producer in 2021, but I saw that company evolve from 420 employees to north of And then just recently made a change to more of a startup company again at a company called Docker where I'm an enterprise AE.

Great. And how did that growing up as the oldest of 6 kind of mold you or was there any correlation between that experience and becoming interested and good at sales?

So yeah, I'll take that as why sales for me. My father is one of the greatest salespeople I've ever met. He was an entrepreneur. He actually kind of innovated ticket brokerage. and put that concept in a, in a mall, an indoor mall in Kansas City. And he was extremely successful. So from like the age of 12 to like 15 and until I went to college, I was working there and I would work behind the counter and transact sales on a B2C. And it taught me a lot. And from an early age, I knew that I was destined for sales.

And so you felt you were gonna naturally flow into sales?

I did. I knew from the start. Yeah. And in college, they didn't have any certifications or minors or majors. And luckily, these colleges are starting to make changes and understand how lucrative and incredible sales careers can be. But no, I competed in the national team selling competition where our team got second. That was the closest I got to sales in college outside of school.

Yeah. And how about business to business? Was your dad solely B2C?

B2C his whole career. Yes. So when I made the switch to B2B, he would ask me, why are you making this change? You're so good at B2C. But I knew, I knew that's where I wanted to take my career. It was a totally different sale, consultative sales. It just really, it felt natural to me.

How did you even know about it? Because like I did B2C like in high school and, you know, B2B, my dad was a B2B salesperson, but I'd never really grasped The differences until I got there.

I think so. I worked in cellular sales and I was really successful there, one of the top producers in college where I would outsell people that were working full-time when I was working part-time, Brian. But my first job out of college was B2B. I just felt like that's where the earning potential was and you wouldn't have to work the extreme hours on weekends and sometimes nights that retail sales brings. So, and then the benefits were much, much better. Yeah.

No standing on your feet all day either.

Correct.

And, you know, Paycom, that was, that's a pretty hard sell.

I'm glad you know the name. Yes. It's almost like a badge of honor to work there.

Yeah. I had a lot of people on the show from the company.

Unbelievable sales organization. It was honestly like an MBA in sales and selling to executives. And it taught me the tenacity and grit that made me into the salesperson I am today. So I'm forever grateful for working there. But I knew that there came a time after I transitioned from an individual contributor to a sales manager and managing a remote office. I was one of the youngest sales managers ever at Paycom. And then I made the decision to go back into sales. And that's where I made the switch to Zoom in 2017.

And what was that like? Because then you go from You know, very well understood problem and solution and competitors and issues to Zoom, which I'm sure when you got there, it wasn't the juggernaut that it is today.

It absolutely wasn't. I had to explain to people what Zoom was and why video conferencing is cutting edge and why your business should adopt it, especially for your salespeople. And then overnight, everyone switched to video conferencing during COVID And the company went from $200 million in ARR to north of $4 billion, Brian. Yeah.

And how did you guys arrange that?

In what way? What do you mean?

Pandemic.

How did they grow so fast?

Well, I mean, I think Zoom above pretty much every other company benefited the most from that, didn't they?

They did. I like to say it was right place at the right time. And Skype and those other tools just weren't positioned for everyone to adopt it overnight. We never had any outages. But it was a once in a lifetime experience to see the exponential growth. They scaled up the sales team far more than any other support or operations in the org. So that took some time to scale, but it was a ride. It was a thrill of a ride.

Yeah.

And something sticks out on your profile and it's come through a couple of times. Number one, that meant something to you. It does mean something to you, doesn't it?

It does. I had a career goal to be a number one producer in a Fortune 500 company, and I take a lot of pride in doing that. And some people may say, well, 2021, like Zoom was the company of the year. That was really 2020. And then 2021, that market becomes— became somewhat saturated, and they had to pivot to other products. That's after everyone got it.

Well, it was the same pandemic for everybody, right? Exactly right. It wasn't different just in your territory. It wasn't a localized event. It was a global event.

It absolutely was.

Yeah. So let's dig into that because that I connect with, because that's something that I personally always felt. I just hated the idea that anyone else, regardless of the situation, was doing better than me. Is that, where does that come from?

I think I'm just a competitive person, uh, in my DNA, Brian. But I try to act humbly and not be the person that boasts or brags about it. But behind the scenes, like, I'm watching the leaderboards, I'm watching where I'm standing in the stack rankings, and I want to strive for President's Clubs and be the best and someone that people can turn to for advice or tips or to, to, for mentorship. And I, I just feel like over my 10-year SaaS career, I've learned so many good lessons that have led me to that goal.

And let's dig into those.

Great.

What do you think would be like the top one that took you from being a solid player to number one?

I think grit and tenacity is one aspect, just outworking people and putting in the extra hours. I mean, I remember throughout COVID, like I would work sometimes 7 AM to 6 PM and that was before I had a daughter. So I was able to make those modifications to my schedule, being self-aware and understanding because sometimes your managers will say, Brian, you're doing all the right things, keep up the good work. I wanna know, like give me constructive feedback of what I can do better. I just told that to my manager the other day, like I want to get better, but being self-aware, like analyzing my own calls and looking to see what could I have done differently, especially learning from the losses was really eye-opening for me. And then also just like actively listening in discovery conversations and not just pitching my products and services, understanding what are the business drivers, what are the challenges that I'm solving for and develop it, developing a really deep relationship with my customers was very beneficial.

Now, most reps have a hard time taking feedback. Great reps crave it. Yeah. How did you separate the performance from the performer, where it's not Michael is good or bad, but that call was not as good as I wish it was?

I would benchmark myself to the people that were at the top of the The stack ranking. I would seek help from them, understand what they're doing on their sales calls. You know, there's so many conversational intelligence tools now, Gong, Chorus, go watch those and see the questions they're asking. And as I just made that recent career change, what do you think I did first? I went to the top performers at Docker and I'm establishing relationships with them and joining them on calls, like being in these meetings rather than just reading all the books and watching all the videos. That's where you're gonna learn to be the best.

Yeah, that's it. Books are nice, but it's not really—

It's a foundation.

Yeah, right. But when you hear another rep pitch the same or talk about the same product and the wording and why did they use that wording and all of those nuances.

And how can I do it better? Like, I don't want to just replicate them. I want to do it that much better so I can come prepared for my next big customer meeting.

And how do you— but your feelings never get hurt? Most reps are— they don't want to be vulnerable. They don't want to hear the feedback. They want to hear the good feedback, not the bad feedback.

I don't know if that's a generational thing, Brian. I mean, some people say that about millennials or Gen Z. Give me all the feedback. Like, I want to know what I can do better, what I did do well. And I think sometimes managers like, you did all these things well, Brian. Great. I'm happy about that. I'm glad you recognize that. What's one thing I could have done differently? And that's what I just asked the other day. What's the one thing I— of approach I could have taken a little bit differently? And be open to it. And some, you're right, some people aren't. And I think that's on them. But you can't take things personally. And you gotta want to get better. You gotta invest in yourself.

And have you always been this way? Or was this an epiphany or a pivot that you made in your career?

I think I've always been open to feedback. Yeah, I mean, maybe it— maybe coming out of college, you're just all about the grades and, and, and all the things you're supposed to do. But coming out of college, I remember I would go to my manager, hey, I got a question. Hey, I got a question. Hey, I got a question. And one of the best lessons she ever taught me is, Michael, where else can you go find that answer? I probably know the answer, but like, I'm busy and I can't answer all these questions. So where can I go find that?

Yeah.

And how about your downtime when you're not listening to calls? How do you work on your system, your sales skill, your stack of skills and strategies?

Podcasts, prospecting, prospecting, prospecting, prospecting and networking and doing whatever it takes to fill your calendar every single week. I've been recognized a lot of times for being the person that has the most meetings. Primarily external meetings because internal meetings are nice, but they'll eat up your calendar. Getting in front of your customers is the most important thing and it's recurring sessions, it's check-in calls, business reviews. Do whatever you can to stay top of mind with your customers.

Yeah. And how do you do that without being a pest?

You show them the value. Like, I want to be a resource to you. I wanna come, I'm gonna come prepared with XYZ resources for every one of our meetings. I wanna make sure that we're addressing all of your support questions, not coming in overly salesy and allowing them to see you as an advocate to them or a consultant or an advisor to their business. So being educated, I found a lot of success in my previous role in this. And people would say like, what are you doing on these monthly check-in calls? Well, come prepared with insights and analytics and how they're using the platform and then bring up new products that we're introducing. Have you heard about this? Wow, Brian, I'm so glad that we met today. Thank you.

Well, that's it. And people would think, well, it's kind of, you know, because we're on Zoom right now and I'm asking you this question, I'm just noticing that. And, and people would say, well, everyone knows that. And it's like, no, I use it every day. I would love somebody to walk me through some of the questions I have, some of the features. What's new?

Bring them something new that they haven't been exposed to, and then they're going to say, wow, I can't wait for my next meeting with Michael. Yeah.

And why did you leave?

After seeing that grow for 6 years to 8,000 employees and just looking back on where I enjoyed that company the most and the culture and striving to grow, the company achieved a lot of things that companies don't ever achieve in a matter of 24 months or less. And I just said, I'm ready to get back to more of an early to mid-stage company that is growing and replicate and bring all the knowledge that I, that I took from Zoom.

Yeah. And given that you went into leadership and now you're back as an individual contributor, which are you more comfortable with? Which one matches you and your personality and your style best?

IC, an account executive. And I was 24 at the time, right? Or 24, 25. And it just taught me a lot of valuable lessons and maybe that I wasn't quite ready. But I remember you've talked on other episodes that it's just like in the social norms that you have to get promoted and you have to be a director. No, like I'll be the one to tell you, you can sometimes make a lot more money, have a lot more work-life balance and get all the recognition that you oftentimes wouldn't in a leadership role. But it's for certain people and it's not for others.

Yeah. And let's say some— a rep came to you and said, Michael, you know, I see your success. How do I get that? And they're already working 16 hours a day because everyone gets the hard work part.

Sometimes you can overwork, Brian. There's working smart and there's working hard. So I would say it comes down to mentorship. Having the right mentors that are leading you down the right pathway. Sometimes you're not going to get that from your manager or your leader. I've worked for managers and I've worked for leaders, and there's very stark differences between the two. But I would say, like, understand where you want to go in your career. Do you want to be a top producer? Do you want to go into management? Are you okay just hitting 100 to 200%? There's nothing wrong with that. Understand where you want to go. And I've mentored students from college, like, they don't know these answers. But make sure they have the right people around them to get them to where they eventually are going to go.

And can you give us an example of a mentor that really kind of got you onto the right course or kind of saved you a lot of heartache by not continuing down the wrong path?

When I got to Zoom, one of my mentors, his name's Daniel. He was foundational to just ensuring that I was staying on the right path and I was doing the right things day to day because he had been there, I think, 6 months to a year before me, but it was already a top producer. And I identified him like, I want to be like Daniel and I want to be quickly successful. So we would meet sometimes, I think we started weekly and then eventually moved to monthly and we would talk about deals and he would give me advice on right approaches I was taking or the wrong approaches. And he was just very candid in his feedback. And that's something that I really respected about him. And to this day, we not only have a working relationship, but also a personal relationship since I've moved away from Zoom.

And when you look through the deals, what were you doing wrong in the deals or less than optimal?

Not getting executive involvement, not getting everyone within kind of what I call my boat. Let's say I've got sales and I've got IT on board, but I don't have marketing. And I remember there was one specific deal that the deal almost sank in the final hours because marketing said, we are not doing this. We do not want to move to this webinar platform. We're happy with our platform. And I had to quickly get them on the line, get them up to speed. And it's hard. Like, so just understanding that everyone plays a role, especially the larger the companies you sell to, to ensuring that they sign off on this project.

And were you the type of rep? Because certainly coming from B2C transactional sales, very different.

Very.

Yeah.

I wasn't.

No.

And I'll call my weaknesses. Like, I had to get better at that. And now I'm always asking questions like, who else will, what, what else would this decision, who else will this decision impact? Who else needs to give sign-off? Ask, asking those buying questions like, what does your procurement process look like? When will legal look at this documentation? Ask all those questions upfront so you're not chasing them down later in the sales process.

Right. Because they will happen.

Inevitably, 100%.

Right. Because most reps would have not called marketing. Assume the deal will go through because you have 3 out of 5 or 4 out of 5 people saying yes, and then it stalls.

Or their coach told— or their champion told them, I got this, I'm going to get sign-off, like, I am 100% your person, I sign the contracts. Well, let's break it down. When you last made a purchase of this magnitude, who had to— who was exposed to it? Who was involved in the decision-making? Just getting all of your cards dealt up front. So you know the pathway to success and showing them your sales process.

Because let's dig into that, because people who are listening may think, well, Zoom, that's pretty easy. Everyone knows it. It's ubiquitous. So much better than the alternative.

Yep.

Remember the alternatives?

WebEx, GoToMeeting. I certainly do. I targeted all of them.

Right. How hard could it be? Yeah. Tell, walk us through like a big complex deal and the challenges that you faced.

Yeah, I'll call out a deal before COVID So there was a very, very large financial institution that I partnered with that was starting to take a look at video conferencing. They had some exploration conversations, but they were fully standardized on Cisco. And Cisco, as you know, Brian, is like Microsoft. They are the gorillas In the room. So to untap that or break that beast up takes a lot of effort. So luckily my BDR got me a conversation with someone that was relatively low level in the IT org, but he immediately got me a meeting with the VP of IT and built a very strong relationship with him and built on trust, built on just breaking down what his initiatives and goals were for that year and where they wanted to take their collaboration and UC goals. And there was a variety of meetings that were either virtual. I even flew down to a location, a small town in Texas to ensure that we were built further building upon that relationship. But it eventually got to their C-level and they still had some hesitations on Zoom. And if you remember, there was some bad press that came out about the security around Zoom. So we, I even got my CEO on the line with their CEO to ensure that they could trust us. And that eventually led to a deal 6 months later. That was the largest deal that I closed in my time at Zoom. But I take a lot of pride in taking every single step, weekly check-in calls, going through the proof of concept with that customer, delivering them equipment that they could just plug and play with and see that this is not just a video conferencing platform. This is a full, unified collaboration environment that they can buy into.

Yeah, because I think people who are listening may think that, well, it's so— since the product is so much better, it's obvious. And that, that works in the individual, but in the corporation that has, what, 10 years with Webex or whoever, or Microsoft—

Microsoft Teams is becoming more and more competitive from when I was—

Right. And they give it away, essentially. They, they put it in the enterprise bundle, so it's Appears free.

Absolutely. Which is very important right now in this recession that we're apparently approaching.

Well, let's talk about that because a lot of reps run into that, especially startups competing against gorillas.

Yep.

Where pricing can be a shell game.

Yep.

How did you work that value versus You know, undecided cost with like going against Microsoft?

You know, if I'm being totally honest with you, Brian, I would actively target the ones that they're already spending outside budget on. So I would target the Cisco Webex, I would target the LogMeIn GoToMeetings. And that's where I made just about all of my money there. I'm not saying I never sold against Microsoft Teams, but I knew and identified and was self-aware That is gonna be a much longer sales process. It's gonna take 3, 4, 5 times the effort versus if I identify an account that is already spending outside budget on collaboration, they're probably spending too much budget on it. I could go in there and I could quickly close that deal and I would replicate that across my territory. And that was one of the reasons why I became so successful.

And the great answer, because too many people would just fight the battle because they like to fight the battle.

Or let's go after the biggest elephants in the room and the biggest accounts. Like I made that mistake at Paycom when my manager sat me down, go after the accounts that were best targeted towards.

Yes. And is that how you prioritize your pipeline and your activities?

100%. The second I took this new opportunity, I brought in the same experience that I have with prioritizing top accounts. And I would go look like who was in large metropolitan areas, Who is using the most adoption of our platform already? And that's where I'm starting off.

And this is the work smarter part.

100%.

Because you probably—

you could go down every account one by one, one by one. That's not the way to do it. It's not extreme productivity.

Yeah. And when did you go from the 16 hours a day to the working smarter? Did that cause health problems or personal problems or?

I think once you get more tenured and experienced in your company and your role and you're in there for quite some time. So right now I'm obviously going through the ramp-up process, putting in far more hours than I was in my previous role. But you've got to learn it and you've got to just dive in and get the experience and start having those customer meetings. If you're not in front of customers like we talked about before, Bryan, you're not making money.

And you're not learning.

And you're not learning.

Because when you start hearing— because that point about not prioritizing the gorillas that are using Microsoft, a lot of reps would just bang their head against the wall because maybe there's one person who wants Zoom. But if Zoom costs $1 and they look at Teams at $0, it's more expensive.

So many reps would say, what makes you so successful? Like, I can't beat Microsoft Teams. Well, while we still have the opportunity, let's try to beat the other ones that we know that we can beat. And it's a tried and true process and rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat.

And through the whole sales process, what part do you think you're the best at? Not the best in the world, but better than the other parts. Some people are great at getting the meeting. Some people are great at presenting. Some people are great at those executive meetings.

I would say, I would say the discovery. I take a lot of pride of investing and educating myself on the types of questions to be asking, how to come prepared, leveraging tools like Google Bard and ChatGPT to do the research for you. So you're not putting in the 16, 18 hours that you were before when you're preparing for 5, 6 calls a day and coming prepared. What types of questions are really gonna resonate with this customer? Because how many salespeople do you think they're meeting with every single day, every single week? And what do you think they're coming with? Pitch me a product, pitch me a product. And then they're racing to get out of that meeting versus, hey, what are your strategic initiatives this year? What's top of mind for you? Understanding what they're compensated based on and then positioning your products accordingly.

Focusing on those personal wins instead of the hypothetical wins.

Agreed.

Yeah. And what would you tell a rep who came to you And that you know that they're not working smart, they're working hard. How do you get them to start thinking instead of just acting and being busy?

Be open to feedback, change your approach, try new things, go look and discuss with the top performers what they're doing and ask your manager like, where am I missing in the sales process? Am I missing in the discovery? Am I missing in the mid-stage and the close? So like really pinpoint where you're finding the biggest challenges and then make improvements, whether if it's reading a book or asking your manager for feedback or your mentors, where can you invest in yourself to get better?

Yeah. And what does your daily routine look like? Is it consistent?

I'd say so. Yeah. I mean, I think it starts with, for me, I've turned into a morning workout person. So that's setting my mindset for the day, eating as healthy as possible, staying hydrated, But then coming prepared and writing down a task list for the day of what you want to accomplish. And with me being 2 months into this role, I'm not selling a bunch of deals immediately. So what are 6 things that you want to accomplish today that you'll feel— you will feel like you achieved and accomplished something at the end by checking all those boxes?

And, you know, my impression of you, you're very detail-oriented, which is kind of orthogonal to most salespeople. Most salespeople are like, yeah, they want to talk to a bunch of people, but they don't really prepare to talk to a bunch of people. They talk to a bunch of people. Yeah.

Not the same thing.

Not at all. No. A lot of people, if I've asked some of my peers, like, what are you observing me? Like, what do you think I do best? They'll say, you're very diligent, you're very detail-oriented, you follow up and Follow through with questions that customers have. I send very detailed meeting recaps and then always, always having a next meeting scheduled. There's nothing more frustrating than, oh, well, we'll contact you or here, I'll send you my availability, Brian. Sure you will. So hey, why don't we tentatively put something down next Thursday? Would 1 or 3 work for you? And we can certainly go from there and then set up recurrences.

Yeah. Great. Hey, Michael, I really appreciate your time today. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

Yeah, I would say number one would be LinkedIn. I've done other podcasts in the past where you're more than welcome to check out. But yeah, LinkedIn would probably be the best place to find me. And I'll just put a quick plug. Docker is hiring. I know we're in sort of a tech rut right now, so feel free to check out careers.docker.com.

So what did you get out of that? What I heard was somebody who has really focused on his success in his career. Been both competitive but thoughtful and smart and built his own system. Now, how do you short-circuit all that? How do you build your own system? How do you get it down so that it is both yours and effective and start to think like the client, which is the main obstacle for most of us? And people say, oh, I know how to do that. Okay, well, do it then. Honestly, do it. The hardest exercise in Start the Conversation, Get the Meeting is profiling the client. Not from a sales rep's perspective, but from the client's perspective. What do they care about? How do they get rewarded? What do they want to talk about? It's not you. It's not your product. It's not your company. Sorry for the news about that. That, that go— there goes your script. There goes your, your top 4 things to talk about. What we have to do is really get into our client's head, and that takes a little bit of work. It may take hearing how other people are doing it. It may need a little help along the process. It's up to you. It's your career. It's your income. You decide. Why not get a little help with it? Go to b2brevenue.com. Check out the courses. There's 2 videos. One on how the courses work and 2 is which course is right for you. Those are the 2 major things that people want to talk about. And if you still have questions, you can schedule a call. The call's not with me though. So don't expect me to be calling you. It's somebody on my team. Who's been through the course, knows it pretty well, who's been very effective with it, can answer all the questions about how it works and if it's right for you and what you want to accomplish. The 2 major problems we solve is how to fill up that pipeline and start talking to those strangers out there without cold calling and spamming. It's a system. It's reasonably easy to learn, but it is very different than what everyone's teaching. Everyone's teaching How to come up with a better, personalized, relevant pitch. Well, good luck on that race because you're racing thousands of reps to come up with a better, more personalized, relevant pitch. Because honestly, it can be insanely relevant. They could call your best friend and say, what does he or she care about? What are their hobbies? What are their priorities? I'll put that into the email, and that might get some attention, but does it create any curiosity and interest in the problem that you solve? Probably not. You know, because you hear all the creative ideas out there, but they're really more like icebreakers than meeting getters. You know, sending videos and Cameos and GIFs, that's basically buying A meeting. And that might be okay. If that works, stick with it. But does it scale? That's up to you. Thanks for listening. Check out the Sales Questions, Brutally Honest Answers podcast. We'll see you next time.