HOW TO BECOME A STUDENT OF THE GAME INSTEAD OF A HACK

In sales, we're always looking for the next new tip or trick, the next new gimmick, the next quick question or call to action. And these things are fun and somewhat helpful, but they don't really do a whole lot. But they feel good. It's a great dopamine hit. You think you know something new. It's all good. But what if you took the opposite approach? Yeah, you keep track of the tips and tricks, but you focused on the whole game of sales. You really studied it, dug in, became passionate about it, wanted to understand it and have a mental model of what your deal looks like. The whole thing, not just stimulus-response, not just I do this, they do this, now I do this. Now what do I say? That's kind of the problem we run into with tips and tricks is it gets us one step, but we're still lost. We, we've gotten closer to something that we think is there, but we don't know how close we are. This I call the student of the game. Somebody who really digs in and wants to understand Sales and selling and people, organizations, how to get them to change, how to get a great idea purchased, not just evaluated, not just interested in it, get it bought, get it implemented, get the benefits from it. That's what we're really trying to accomplish in sales. We think we just want The order. We think we just want the meeting, but that's just a step to where we really want to get to. Today's guest, uh, is going to share how he went through that journey, um, and I think you'll really enjoy it because if you look at his LinkedIn profile, it looks pretty good. You know, great career progression, Solid performer. And what I found about great salespeople is everyone thinks it's the life of the party and it's a personality characteristic and you're either born with it or you aren't. Um, you know, that maybe in B2B or B2C sales, that's true. In B2B, I found it all over the map. I think anyone can learn it who wants to. And that's the key. You have to want to learn it. You have to become the student. When the student is ready, the teacher will appear. Until the student is ready, ready, no teacher— all the information in the world will not make sense, nor will you care about it. And I think this is one of the key lessons I learned last year, was that And it was from that song. I'm trying to think of who wrote it now. Now I'm lost with it. It's like, um, what is it? A person hears what they want to hear and disregards the rest. Now, who sings that? Somebody send me a note. Whose song is that? A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. That kind of sums up a lot of both our customer interactions and salespeople's interactions where we hear it, but then we just map it to a platitude and we assume we know it and are good at it. Those are 2 very different things. Let's get into this interview. Before we do, hey, did I update you on brevitypitch.com? I'm playing with the new release. Not only does it sound like a human, It sounds like the person you're calling. They have different dialects, accents, so you don't get bored at all with the interaction, and you get to practice. And one cold calling guy said, why don't you just dive in and have a conversation? And it's like, that's winging it. You can do that, and maybe if you're— if it's the 5th, 6th, 7th call of the day, And you're all warmed up with some Starbucks, that could work. But what if it doesn't? Um, there's no second chances in some sales. People give you, may give you an opportunity, and if you don't maximize it, what are you going to call them back in a day or two and say, can we do it again? No, they already have the impression in their mind. Sales is a prevention profession, not a repair profession. Everybody wants to repair their deals. That's really hard. Possible sometimes. And I don't know anyone who's good or great at repairing sales. Some people are good in rebuilding the relationship or Going over someone's head or reigniting it a little bit. But when you do that, you're kind of starting all over again. You're starting the whole sales process over again. Why not do it right the first time? Preparation. That's the profession that we're in. Think about every stage of the sale. Going back and trying to do a redo. It doesn't really fly. People have the impression and they think they know what they know. A man hears what they want to hear and disregards the rest. We have to build that rapport up. We have to be the person to open up and connect with them. And the way to do that is to practice. Get used to it. Get confident with it and get skilled with it. Go to brevitypitch.com. Bring your manager. Tell them Brian sent you. Here's the interview. Hey, Joe. Thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Well, thanks for having me, Brian. So, hello, Joe Dabrowski. I've been in sales since I was 16 years old. I was Born and raised in upstate New York and, you know, college in New England and started my real professional sales career right after college.

Yeah. And why sales though?

You know, it's a question I ask myself a lot. I mean, let's just face it, I maybe wasn't the best academic student growing up.

Well, you went to a great school, right?

I went to a decent school, you know, so I, It just was never really motivated by much other than having great conversations with people. I loved business. Like my dad was a business person. I heard him talking to his peers when I was younger. My mom was actually in real estate when we were really young. So she was kind of in sales and, you know, it just, it made a lot of sense. And when I was 16, I got this job selling patio furniture and pool cleaning equipment. In Connecticut. And I got to interact with customers and the reps would come in from the furniture manufacturers and they would tell us about the warranties and how the things are made and how they pitch it. And I was like, this is for me. We got so into learning about it, like 16 years old slinging $30,000 patio furniture sets, you know, I mean, absolutely awesome. Yeah.

And so you went right into the fire at EMC. Which is, I guess, a great training ground. Certainly at that time they were red hot.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, picture it's 2002. I'm graduating college, you know, decent school. I'm gonna go into sales, right? It's kind of, kind of my thing. So I, I did get one job maybe before EMC selling CLAC, right? So Competitive Local Exchange Carrier. But what I realized was that was a sales job and not a career.

Okay.

So when I got that call from EMC, I got into EMC, I was like, they're gonna invest in me. It's a training program I'm gonna learn about. whatever storage is, right? They were one of the 4 henchmen of the, you know, internet at the time, right? And they had just gone through the crash and they were rebooting their sales development program back in Boston, consolidating it. And I was like, this is the golden ticket for me.

And is that what you were looking for as a career instead of just a job?

Yeah, 100%, right? Again, I had that first couple of months where I just, I saw people just You know, great people, they just weren't committed to the craft of it, right? It was more of this like transactional thing. Can I kind of trick people into selling versus like aligning to a business problem, having a great outcome, having a longstanding relationship, you know, actually like providing value, right? A value exchange, if you will. I think those are the things that I thought that sales would be great, right, about sales. So that's what I wanted to go towards.

And is that what motivates you? Is that your driver?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously, you know, you always talk about sales and money and all that stuff. And there's, there was more of a component of that when I was younger establishing myself and, you know, providing. I've got a family now and all that. But over time, what I've realized is one, you know, that human connection of like being a partner to someone is something that I just absolutely enjoy. You're connecting on a different level. Again, there's a certain amount of respect that's built and trust, and I think those are really important things. And then as I've matured into a sales leader, it's all about developing the next generation, giving somebody that chance, that opportunity to, you know, get on a different plane, change their lives, like change the lives for their families and their children. And, and, and, you know, I've been lucky enough to, to have that experience a handful of times.

And what do you think differentiated you as a seller?

I break it down to, I had a great boss once, you know, early in my career and he said, you know, don't just be better on one thing, break it down to 100 little things and be better at 1% of each one of them. So that's really what I focused on over the years is like, how do I continue to evolve, you know, change the game, if you will, just get a little bit better on all these little things and like over time, you'll continue to win, right? You'll just be better than the competition because as you know, Brian, you know, I look at sales, it's a zero-sum game, right? Some people gotta win, some people gotta lose.

Right. You both don't win.

Yeah.

And how did you go through that? Did you have a system or was it just a mindset or?

It was a mindset early and then, you know, curious. I read a decent amount of books over the years, but Sort of guardrails, right? I've done some sales training. Those are guardrails. Again, I went on a lot of sales calls, right? I think that's it. It's activity, getting comfortable in those moments, having fun with it, right? You know, the prepping for them, debriefing from them. It's a team sport, you know, the way I, you know, high-tech selling is a team sport. We've got engineers and specialists and even some bosses sometimes and, you know, all sorts of things. So, you know, breaking down every opportunity I had and like, how do I insert just 1, 2, 3 more things to better align to the customer or better differentiate the product or better identify the problem and find the pain with the problem and the implication of the pain of the problem. So it's, it's been, you know, 22, 23 years of high-tech selling and just Self-reflection.

Yeah. And do you keep notes? Do you have a journal? Do you have a system or?

So it's funny you mentioned that. I was kind of doing a little yearly spring cleaning, whatever you call it, as we hit 2024. I found my stack of notebooks, right? Because I'm still an analog guy when I go and meet with people, right? And I was looking back through some of the sales calls and like, I've definitely gotten better in the last maybe 5 or 10 years at finding pain and inflicting pain. I'll tell you that much.

Well, I think too many reps look at it as a black box where they think it's all about value or talking to the right person or challenging them. Like there's one little tweak.

No, it's, it's, it's a, this is what I think I love about sales. It's kind of like collecting wine or something like that. You can never hit the end of the rainbow. You can never, you can never read all of the internet, right? Always something else. Yeah. I got to the internet. I'm done here. Like move on to something else. Like, I don't think that's how it works with sales, right?

It isn't. But a lot of people after 3 years stop.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think it comes down to enabling people to be great, right? And, you know, there's that saying out there, like people don't leave jobs, they leave their leaders. Right. And, you know, again, sales has some negative connotations to it. Again, that like kind of high pressure type thing versus this like, hey, I'm gonna, a business enabler. I'm here to kind of do some matchmaking. I'm here to be a critical thinker, a problem solver, right? That's, I look at it more of that side of it than this, like, you know, somebody trying to sell you a wallet on, you know, in the market or something, right?

You know, And you picked probably the toughest segment. Was that a conscious choice? Or was that something you slid into?

Probably just didn't know any better. I mean, it's dynamic, right? It's competitive. It's, it's, it's cutthroat. You know, we say it's knife fight, knife fighting all the time, right?

Well, not just— I'm talking about your territory. Oh, well, yeah, it's like I mean, other than going into a new country.

Well, you know, just for a little background, right?

Right.

What I do now is I lead slide organization for the US for a company called Rubrik, right? And Rubrik is started really as a backup and IT infrastructure company and has changed and melded and converted as the problem shifted, right, into a cyber recovery company. So in essence, we're consolidating some markets, right? So that even makes it tougher, right? Because your persona is very different. But let's face it, and there's an unfortunate reality out there, which is the public sector in general has been targeted and specifically attacked by bad actors, right?

Sure.

And, you know, one of the reasons I chose to go into SLED was to help you know, those who don't have the resources all the time to fight back, fight back, right? They're attacking our people. And I take a lot of pride in, you know, helping state governments, local governments, education institutions, you know, defend that student data, that constituent data, provide resiliency. I mean, it's what gets me out of bed in the morning instead of what keeps me awake at night.

And how do you keep your team focused and motivated? Because When you talk to public sector reps, there's a whole lot of reasons why nothing's getting done, right?

Yeah.

It's called a bureaucracy for a reason.

Yeah, it's not, I mean, it can be tough, right? There can be some, you know, large, you know, processes and procedures in place and timeframes and all that. But that's no different than large enterprise selling in my experience, right? You call on some of the largest—

Except for there's no profit motive.

Yeah, that's true. I would say though, you know, I've only been in SLED a handful of years. I have seen more people trying to do the right thing versus hide behind the machine as far as like customers and all that. So trust me, I was a little worried about, you know, that type of stuff going into it. You know, there are some perceptions out there. But again, the problem statement for what we sell is changing, Right? The bad guys are after us. Sales in general has changed. So I just think there's an evolution going on there with those customers too. And, you know, we're excited to be a part of it. Yeah.

And what was it like getting into leadership for the first time?

Good question. So I chose to go into leadership probably about 14 years ago for the first time. So I was pretty young, right? I was in my mid to late 20s. working at a pretty good company growing, you know, a large district, right? And I think the thing that kind of got me then was more of the work-life balance, to be honest. When I went into leadership the first time, I just had my first child.

Wow.

And what I realized is maybe I weren't doing both of those things exceedingly well, right? And, you know, that was a tough lesson to learn. So I actually got into leadership And then got out of it after a handful of years because I needed to kind of focus on me and my family and things like that. And then maybe about 4 years ago, I got back into it and it was one of those, Brian, it was like I had a decision to make. It was like, do I go down the left path or the right path? Blue pill, red pill type of thing. And, you know, I do remember having a conversation with somebody I trust very dearly and she was like, you gotta do it. Like the team needs you to do this. It sounds like this is your opportunity and we've done really well with it since. So I'm really happy to see the output of the people that we were able to hire and build up to be, you know, A players and have them make life-changing money and solve big problems for customers and build lifelong relationships. I'm so glad I'm back in the space where I can see it, right? Instead of just saying my peers did something cool, it's like I get to watch that develop. And that's the coolest part of my job.

And how did you get your work-life balance in balance? Because clearly you felt that being an individual contributor gave you more focus and controls.

Yeah, it did. It was really one of just, you know, kind of, I think, maturing on my side, right? And You know, a lot of soul searching, right? A lot of focusing on like what was important to me and what do I want my life to look like, not what is the logical next step, what is expected of me, what do others want me to do. So I like, I had to get grounded in me first and I think maybe at that time I had lost a little bit of that. It's a crazy time. You get married, you have kids, you buy houses, like Life hits you fast, right?

Sure does.

And I didn't want to, you know, let it get out of control because people needed me at the time. I think I had 11 direct reports or something too, right? So, you know, the ratio was a little off and it was a good decision to get out and it was an excellent decision to get back into it because I found my passion. Yeah.

What's the hardest part about it?

The hardest part about it is, I think twofold. Well, I think the first thing is, you know, sometimes I'm not always excited about certain things, right? And kind of separating like, you know, maybe my personal view from like what's the best thing for the business, right? So I think that's—

That's hard.

It's always a kind of a challenge, right? Because you got people involved, you got like the business involved and where those 2 things meet, that's where, you know, you can have those types of I guess concerns, if you will. So I think that was kind of the first thing. And then I'll just leave it at that, I think.

Well, I mean, there's also like when you're the quarterback on the deal, you know, you're kind of leading it, then all of a sudden you're on the sideline of the deal. Yeah.

You're calling the play sometimes. Yeah.

Observing the play.

Yeah. Observing the play. Watch.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, it's, you know, right, first line sales leader, it's a tough thing to balance that, like inspiring, managing. Sometimes you have to kind of show them how it's done, but you don't want to over-rotate to be in the super rep, right? Because that's no good thing. And, you know, that was maybe one I didn't do well with early, right? Because I was so good at selling it. And let's face it, back then, right at this timeframe, If you knew the market and you had a great whiteboard pitch and then you had some good SEs that could do a demo, you're running the deal. Like, so it was like a very transactional sale even though it was complex and it was easier. Yeah, it was easier. It was like just master that piece of it and then, you know, be a deal person. And I think we can all agree like the world has definitely moved on from that type of selling and has evolved.

And how do you deal with reps who don't take the meticulous Approach that you do?

Oh, well, so this is a, this is a good one, right? I think you have to explain the why, like you always gotta start with the why, right? And I think sometimes leaders forget that, like they just know the way. So they'll just go, here's the way, do it. They never explain like, is it like the why or the, the current state channel? Like, again, you put it in the same context you put a customer problem. What is your current state? What are the challenges with it? Like, where do we wanna go and what are we gonna get out of it?

Yep.

Our gap is what we need to solve for. Okay, great. Like now we've identified that. So that's, I think that's just one of them, right? Is like diving into, you know, getting them motivated to maybe put a little bit more, whether it be process or change some way of how they're selling, you know, have a stronger point of view. Right? I don't think anyone could argue with that in general. But if you just tell them to create a document that shows your point of view, like that's what you're gonna get. You're not gonna actually, you're gonna get compliance. You're not gonna get commitment of like, no, I can actually talk about their business. I know what they're worried about at the risk level. I know what their challengers are doing, you know, all that type of stuff, right? So I think that's one great example of like how you can actually spin someone quick because it's not that hard. And it's always in your benefit to know more about your customer. So why don't we just start with them and then we'll start with what we do, you know?

And what do you look for when you're hiring?

A lot of times athletic backgrounds help a lot for what we do. Yeah, right. Because they've had to grind, they've had to fight through team, teamwork, right? Is a big one, right?

Feedback.

Feedback, right?

Dealing with competitiveness.

Yeah, coaches and, you know, all that, all that stuff, right?

So that's regulation.

Yeah, you need one, right? I look for people with a motor, right? I think that's the one because, you know, if their parents didn't teach them that by the time they're 20, like, there's no way you're gonna teach them that, like, flat out, right? So start with the motor. Do a lot of backchanneling, right? And kind of talking to my peers. You know, as you know, this, this area, this DC area is pretty, pretty tight-knit community. So if you build a network, but that's been a challenge as I scaled to cover the country, right? How to kind of do that all over the country. So it's all about the, the will with me. We can build the skills, but having a background in some of the domains we're in and experiences with that, examples of that. I love hearing about people like how they got into the biggest deal they ever did. Tell me how you opened up that opportunity. How did you build a champion? How'd you test your champion? Like that type of stuff. Those are the things I ask people to really figure out. Like, were they in a good position? Did they get good coaching along the way? You know, are they a grinder? Did they have success 10 years ago and maybe not the last 2? There's a lot that goes into that.

So, and what have you made a mistake on in hiring that you won't make a mistake on again?

Yeah, there's just a few non-negotiables with me, Bryan. You know, again, it's like one of those things where you think you can change someone's will because they're so likable or they won these deals. Like, you know, another one I'm just not a big fan of is like, oh, I know this one account. This is why you to hire me. Like, okay. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

I'm a Rolodex hero, right? So that doesn't necessarily impress me all that much. People that ask great questions in interviews, right? Come prepared with a lot of insightful questions, right? Not just about like the job, but the company, maybe even me and my experiences. You know, people who come, people who come with a point of view, Right? Like on why they wanna work at a company where, you know, where I'm leading, right? So the good news is I've met unbelievable candidates all over the country and I think the future is bright for high-tech sales.

And how do you cut through the interview mask to really, do you have litmus tests for certain?

Yeah, we do. We do. We have a testing process that we use. It's really the job boiled down, right? Give some people some homework, they go off and do some stuff and they come back and kind of interact with us in a way that puts them in the moment of having this job. And I think the biggest thing we can do when we're going through that hiring process is make sure it's also a kind of a 2-way fit, right? I think, you know, I go in thinking, can this candidate get past my doors through my guards? And they're going, can I get the job? Do you wanna work there? Is this the right cultural fit for you? Is this a place where you can see yourself learning and growing? Right? Sure, the comp's good, but what about the learning? Like, what skills are you gonna take away? Will you be a different seller, a more efficient, more effective seller coming out than you went in? Or is it just another job? So kind of where we started, right? Is it, are you growing that career? Are you just having good years?

And what do you see out there that you don't like about what salespeople are doing today?

Anybody that puts their integrity on the line for a sale, I just, I can't stand it because it tarnishes the whole group. Yeah, the whole profession, right? Hey, I can't, like, I come in with good intentions, right? I come in with a history of aligning to customers and You know, I could give you a bunch of people you probably know that would call me and be like, yes, he like treats us with respect, does well, like always does what he says, never gives us, you know, too much, right? But I've seen it out there and I've walked into rooms where they're like, listen, no offense, but I just don't trust salespeople because I've been burned before. And it's like, oh, I hope that person's really enjoying that commission check they got on that because they just like Really hurt us all. They set us all back and I just be honest, be trustworthy, have integrity. Like, you know, the ponds we swim in aren't that big.

Well, especially in B2B, can you really trick anybody into anything? You know, it's like there's this like large time gaps. It's so hard to sell them something they want, never mind what they don't want. Right, right. The hurdles are so difficult.

Yeah, I'm talking more in like competitive selling, right?

Oh, I see.

Yeah. When you're in like, you know, comparative differentiation or unique differentiation. Oh, we have that too. Or it's on the roadmap type thing and like, yeah, I haven't even thought of it yet. Like, you know, that type of thing, right? I mean, it's pretty big in my industry right now. You can—

Oh, I bet. Yeah.

FUD. The market. No, it's not just FUD. It's like the market stealing marketing.

Like, oh, just copying the website.

Literally copying stuff like the words, the verbiage. It's like, oh my gosh, I've seen it. It's been pretty bad the last 3 or 4 years, right?

Yeah. And are you leading leaders now? Is that—

Yeah. Okay.

What do you look for in sales leaders?

The ability to inspire people, right? I think they have to be operationally excellent. We had, they hired they hired well before, right? So it's a 3, you know, 3 Rs: recruit, revenue, and retain. So that's really kind of how I look at it. I'm not against giving people first-time leadership jobs. I've actually got a couple of them right now doing well, right? So it's all about, you know, kind of meeting them where they're at. I think helping from at least a higher level build that culture of like trust and respect and, you know, storytelling and asking great questions and, you know, building your brand and being operationally effective. And I mean, I just, I got like hundreds of these things we constantly kind of go through, right? You know, being the mayor of your territory, another great concept, right? Can they inspire people to become the mayor so that, you know, everyone knows them? Hey, we're in a channel model. We've got alliance partners. They can help me get in there. I'll get in here. I'll tell a great story over here. Oh, this customer just moved. Let's go. Like, You know, that's it, right? It's a high activity pipeline generation heavy. So pipeline generation first culture where they celebrate customer success. We catch people doing stuff right, right? So we celebrate the little wins along the way. It's not just, hey, Sally won a billion dollar deal. It's Sally sent a really good email and got to an executive buyer. Like, okay, celebrate that because everyone can do that today. Not everyone can close a billion dollar deal tomorrow. Yep.

And let's say a rep comes to you, shows interest in becoming a leader. How do you, how do you tell if they're ready? And if they're not ready, how do you tell them they're not ready? Yeah.

Well, candor is an important thing, right? So, you know, I think we start with, have you become, you know, top 5% in what you're doing today? Because that's really what we're looking for, for you to become a leader is like subject matter expertise. You have to really know that job. And in essence, what you've had to have done is like slowed it down so you can make good decisions, right? New leaders, things are coming at them so fast that they're reactive. Whereas I think people that are more comfortable in that job, it's kind of like the old Wayne Gretzky, right? How did Wayne Gretzky have so much time to make great plays in hockey? He understood the game way better than everyone else. When he was 7 years old, he's tracing the puck around, you know, on TV and his dad made him do that, right? So He learned the game. And so it's on me to then, you know, build these new leaders, teach them that game, get them out of being that, you know, either a rep, start thinking like a second line sometimes and create that again, the gap between where they're at, where they want to go. Okay, here's what we need to focus on. Yeah.

And if they're not ready, what do you tell them?

Here's the things you gotta work on, right? Yeah. Very honest conversation of like, you need to get better in these 3 things. And then, you know, again, I think, Many companies now when they get to midsize are starting to really address this problem head on. How do we create a machine where you can start as an SDR and you end up as a CRO, right? And how do we enable them along the way, right, to be the best rep they could, to learn how to recruit, to become a great first line leader and excellent at that, nailing forecasts, all that stuff. And then cool, how do we inspire people? How do we get in front of problems 6 months in front of them? How do we use data to make better decisions? Keep going up. You gotta teach them all that stuff. Those are all skills you can learn, right? So you just need to be aware and focus on them.

And what do you see more? The person who focuses more on the admin one of becoming a leader or the person who accelerates at revenue generation but isn't doing the other parts of the job wants to become a leader?

It's usually the, it's usually the revenue side wants to step up first and they have to learn the hygiene side, if you will. I mean, that's just, that's the world we live in, right? In this part of the market that I sell in, it's so dynamic, so high paced, the pressure is high, it's so competitive. So that those are the people that rise to the top. They're not the people that, you know, necessarily have the cleanest, you know, sales force or whatever, right?

And how do you keep your work-life balance now? Because I can't imagine the demands have gone down.

No, I've slowed the game down. Like I said, a little bit.

That's smart. All right.

Yeah, right. This is one I'm, I'm, I still don't, I think I have a great answer for. I was actually sitting probably a couple of years ago with the CEO of our company who's in town and I asked him this question, right? I'm like, hey, Bipple, like, how do you, how do you have balance? You know, VC, run a company, all that stuff. You've got 2 young kids. He's like, you can't chase your tail on that. He's like, you'll never actually have balance.

Yeah.

You're always gonna be upset with yourself if work's gonna demand more of you, your kids will demand more of you. So you're never gonna have balance. You need to make hard decisions. That's what you need to do, right? You need to get focused on the most important things instead of the whirlwind of life. It was kind of the advice he gave me. And I think that changed my outlook because I think before I was really trying to find that perfect balance where things work and it's just, it's a fool's errand, right? It's a good idea. And trust me, you don't want to turn your back on your kids or your wife.

18 years later.

Or your job, right? Like, I'm not gonna disappear for 4 weeks and just go skiing. Like, I'd love to go to Park City for 4 weeks, Brian, but, you know, not in the cards.

So. I got a great, you have a great point there about slowing it down and not being reactive because I think in sales, That's one of the key challenges everyone has. They feel comfort— being busy feels like you're being effective. Thinking makes you feel like you're procrastinating.

Yeah.

But thinking is what you need to do.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, again, it's, you're gonna walk into a first call and just ask generic questions and all that, or are you gonna come in with a point of view on their business and their challenges? I mean, it's the same thing. Right. Yeah, cool.

Hey Joe, really appreciate your time today. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

LinkedIn, joe.dabrowski, D-A-B-R-O-W-S-K-I.

Sales, it's all about anticipation, prevention, knowing what your competition's going to do, knowing what your client's going to do. One of my rules, my laws of sales is If you know what's going to happen, you know what to do. Because what does everybody— and this is just human nature— what does everybody do after something goes wrong on a deal? Just not you, just listen to other reps. This is what we all say. I said it too. This is how I came up with it. I would say, I knew that was going to happen. I'd had managers who say, I knew that was going to happen. I told you it was going to happen. It's human nature. It's kind of a defense mechanism. But here's my point. My point is, if you know it's going to happen, why don't you prevent it from happening? Since it's bad, you know, your competitor is going to go over your head. You know your competitor is going to put some fear, uncertainty, and doubt in your client's mind. Why not prevent it? You can't prevent what your competitor is going to do, but you can prevent how your client receives it. And I was talking to everybody in Closing the Complex Sale yesterday, and we were going through this where one of the students has this huge deal. Everyone, all the departments are behind him except for one. And they just don't want to switch. It's not— they don't even want to look at his product. They're not— there's no curiosity, there's no desire, there's no interest. There's— it's negative, meaning they, they are locked and loaded. And we all run into this— people who don't want to change, or what we're selling affects them in a less than, uh, positive way. Positive for the company, but maybe not positive for them as individuals. A lot of people don't like to change, and that's reasonable. Let's face it, you get used to your workflow, and why change it? It works. My point here is I would say, well, what do you think the competitor is going to do? What do you think they're going to do? How do you think your Champion's going to react to that? How do you think leadership is going to react to that? All of these things, you can't prevent what other people are doing, but you can prevent how your champion and your executives are going to react to it. I'll teach you how, because these deals have patterns. They're not identical, but there, there is a pattern. And if you can recognize that pattern, And anticipate next movements, good and bad, and how to prevent— you can't prevent everything, I get it, but you can streamline it. You can anticipate it instead of reacting to it. Now, if the reacting to it is very weak position because it's been done. It's permeating in their mind. And don't work on logic. Everybody works on logic in sales, and it's the wrong abstraction level. You got to work on primitive emotions and personal wins. That is how people change. You see it all the time. Everyone works at the logic level. Which is a smokescreen. It's gaslighting from the reality of what's going on. People don't want to talk about it, but that's why I call this The Brutal Truth. I tell you the truth, what's really going on. Not the simple truth, the brutal truth. The truth that you don't want to hear, but you need to hear. The truth about what's really going on and what will really happen. So you can either kind of accept it or react to it at the end of the quarter when the deal doesn't come in and you're not really sure why. And how do I know this? Because I did it. Because I did it for decades. And I just hated losing. I hated wasting my time. I hated being lied to. I'm not talking about the blatant lies. I'm talking about the logic lies. You know, the logic lies. You got them— activity drives revenue. That's a logic lie. Yes, you need to do something to get success, but what you do and how you do it can be very different. My point here is Dig into sales. If you want to become great at it, become a student of the game. If you want to be okay at it, if you want to skate by and that B-minus player, you know, the 60, 70% of quota player, you'll have a job. But will you enjoy it? Will you ever emotionally connect to it? Will it get you up in the morning and fire you up? Will it consume your passion? No, it won't. The way to do that is to become a student of the game, to dig in, to understand it. And to do that, you have to have a guide, somebody who's been there before. Now, you see these people on LinkedIn all the time with 5 years experience as sales experts coming out of a big brand company. Oh, did I tell you? I'm going to have a rep on that worked with, or was on a sales call with those people. And the reputation wasn't that good. Or you have people trying to teach you sales who've never done it. They may be good teachers, but there's no real-world experience because sales doesn't work the way it works in books. It doesn't work the way it works on LinkedIn. It's This very dynamic environment that is hard to understand. And here's the key obstacle. In our mind, we are projecting what we want. Of course, that's how our brain works. And we're not thinking about what we don't want. But if you don't think about what you don't want, you're not anticipating it. You can't prevent it. And how do you do that? I'll show you. If you're curious, if you're interested, if you want to become great at sales. If you don't, that's up to you. Go to b2brevenue.com. Check out the courses. There's 2 major ones. Start the Conversation, Get the Meeting. This is the ultimate prospecting course. This will teach you how to stay focused. Get away from the bullshit activity. You cannot find interest If you can, congratulations. If you— if it's not working, if the 100 emails a day aren't landing today, it's— that's a 1%, and the 1% is unsubscribe, or people aren't picking up the phone. Yet there are ways of engaging with people. Don't you want to talk with people? I do. Don't you want to learn? Don't you want to become better? Start the conversation, get the meeting. I teach you how mammals connect with other strangers in a systematic way. This is the side door of sale selling. The front door is cold calling and and cold emailing. We know how that works. We've got several million people doing it every day, all day with automation. Not too good. The back door. Is when you have a referral or a recommendation. That's not what I teach. If you have that, it works, but it's very limited. The side door is connecting with strangers, not about the product and what you do, about them, their favorite topic. And this is not what's in it for them. This is a misinterpretation. That's a salesperson's view of the world. It is connecting with them as a human being first, not as a transaction. There's a huge difference there, and it builds up a know, like, and trust relationship because that's the only thing sales experts can agree on. That's it. Everything else they disagree on. The other course is Closing the Complex Sale. This is What I've been talking about in both the intro and the outro is understanding how the game is played. Because how do you win a game that you don't even know how it's played? You don't know the rules, you don't know the process, you don't know the obstacles, you don't know what your competitor is going to do. Or you may think you do until you don't, and then it's repair. And ask yourself, how good are you at repairing deals? It's really hard. If you're great, congratulations. If you're not, you gotta prepare. You gotta prevent. Prevention is simple. Repair, complex. But prevention requires forethought and action. And I've seen so many people, they'll spend more time trying to repair a deal than they could get into 2 or 3 new accounts. And they never get that deal, but they get very busy and get very egotistical about it because they hate to lose. We all do. But are you winning? No, you're losing more. Go to b2brevenue.com, sign up today. We'll see you next time.