HOW TO CLOSE THE LARGEST DEALS IN YOUR CAREER

Today we've got a great one. We're going to be talking about big deals. Why? Because big deals are critical if you're in business-to-business sales. Much like, uh, Price's Law applies to reps, meaning that it's highly focused. Big deals, that's where you're going to get a lot of your commission. How you're going to get to your number. And if you lose those big deals or somebody else wins them or they slip or stall or shrink, not good. So how do you make sure these big deals stay on track? It comes down to a handful of moments. The commodity trap. Are you viewed the same as everybody else? A thing. How's it work? What's it cost? We all fall into that trap, but we don't have to. We can get it focused back on the problem that you solve. They're not buying a commodity. They're solving something. They're getting something. They want something. Something is not working the way they like. Focus on that. Price versus value. Everybody complains about price. If it's a penny, it's too high. And we— what do we all do? Oh, I'll give you 10 points off. That doesn't really solve the problem. They're not looking at the value. If they don't look at the value, they're not going to value you and what you're selling. So how do we get used to handling these issues? How do we get the comfort, the authenticity to do it? We've got to practice. Because in sales, what we hear most often is, I want to do it my way. It doesn't work your way. What that really is saying is, my instincts are different than yours. And of course they are. Doesn't mean one's right or one's wrong, especially in sales where it's so subjective. What we need is a great process. And authenticity. We got to have both. If we have one without the other, uh, we feel good losing a deal, or we come across awkward and it fumbles anyway. You got to get both. The only way to get both is practice. Go over to brevitypitch.com, check it out right now. Hey, they're also hiring. Send your resume into careers@brevitypitch.com. Here we go.

Hey, Herb, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Good morning, Brian. Hey, thanks for having me. Uh, yeah, Herb Klan. Um, I live and work in Charlotte, North Carolina, born and raised in Pittsburgh, PA. I studied finance at Penn State. Moved out to Milwaukee, Wisconsin in 2010 to start working for GE Healthcare. I was there up through the spring of this past year. I switched from GE Healthcare to Cisco Systems, where I'm currently an account manager here in North Carolina.

So how do you go from a finance major to a sales guy?

Yeah.

What happened?

It was a long winding road and it wasn't something that happened overnight. It was kind of throughout the course of 5, 6 years. I joined GE Healthcare through their financial management program. It's a 2-year rotational program. You get to join different teams within the finance function. Spent time in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, Salt Lake City, Utah, Chicago, Illinois. After that, I went up to GE Corporate to join their corporate audit staff. And that's a global program where you travel all over the world. Every 4 months, you're rappelling into a different GE business, aviation, treasury, power and water. And you're either doing a financial audit or an operational streamline project. And some of the feedback I used to get on the audit staff was, Herb, you're too much of a sales guy.

Really?

When it comes to explaining a financial adjustment to a CFO, we need you to say yes, no, or a number. Don't tell the story. You're too much of a sales guy. Back in my FMP days, I had done enough work behind the scenes with the commercial team. I'd seen some of the commission checks and Um, was always fascinated with those who carried a bag. And, um, in 2015, when I was rolling off the audit staff and it was time to take a job in a GE business, I wanted to go back to the healthcare, um, business, uh, but I wanted to jump into sales. And it took about 6 months interviewing for different roles. Finally found a couple guys that believed in me, were willing to give me a shot, and here I am 7 years later.

And what was, um, the friends and family reaction to that? Because, you know, finance is not an easy major. It's one of the harder ones.

Correct. Yeah. Um, I think my family was probably, um, less surprised that I was trying to switch into sales than they were when I told them I was declaring finance as, uh, my focus of study. You know, um, when it comes to, you know, being personal, personable, trying to, you know, create relationships, build relationships. Um, like I said, tell the story. Um, you know, I, I think my family, uh, you know, sought to be a good fit and were very supportive and encouraging.

That's it, because finance is kind of like the, the brainiac side of business, kind of the unemotional, I would say introverted even.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

And it attracts that type of person who likes solid things, known things, no fluff.

Yeah. You know, no one wants the funny guy at the end of the table managing their money. Yeah. No, that's, that's usually not very, very popular. But, you know, the thing that my time in finance really gave me is a process mindset.

Yeah.

Especially on the audit staff, like most of the, like the top performers I was working with, they actually had an engineering background. And understanding a wing-to-wing process, the inputs, the outputs, you know, either validating that everything's correct or, you know, something's not right and what that implication downstream is. It's the same thing in sales, you know, going from point A to point B, walking someone from current state to future state. And, you know, why, why my solution? Why now?

Well, that's it, because a lot of people look at sales as a personality characteristic instead of a process, right? And whether you call a process a game or some structured way of a journey from where you are to where you want to get, it is.

Yeah, you know, in today's commercial world, journey is probably like, you know, sometimes overused, almost way overused, right? Just like a buzzword. But, you know, when you're on a journey, you're on it with multiple people. And that's the thing about managing the sales process is, you know, understanding the customer. And when you say customer, who do you mean? Often it's 5, 10, I mean, you can have a dozen different—

People.

Customers.

Yeah.

On one project. And so understanding how each of them fit, like whenever I was doing my financial audits, you know, we'd usually get a data dump on a Friday, we grind through the weekend, and if you found something, There was a step-by-step kind of best practice we used where Monday morning you're clearing it with the financial analyst that may or may not have made that error. And you basically go to them with your finding and say, hey, look, either later this afternoon, tomorrow morning, I'm going to be sitting down and meeting with your boss. I wanted to bring this to you first, get your feedback. I can incorporate any and all. And adjustments into this. And then after you kind of clear it, you move up the organization to the finance manager, to the finance director, eventually the controller. And then on Thursdays was the big, you know, CFO presentation. What's the first thing the CFO asks you when you walk in with a million-dollar adjustment to the income statement at the end of the quarter? What does my team think? Yeah, you know, and so you already have the team's buy-in, there's no surprises. You know, and you walk out of that, that internal boardroom and you walk into, you know, the external customer boardroom, if you will, and it's, it's the same thing. You got to clear it up, the organization. You got to make sure that everyone understands what you're proposing, how it impacts them, what they can gain from it. And then that support kind of builds a little bit of a groundswell. There's no surprises. Everyone feels involved. Everyone feels included. And that's usually where, you know, I've been able to kind of find success.

Cool.

And what was it like the first couple years in sales? Did you feel at home, or was it a struggle? Were you a fish out of water?

Um, I had a good team around me, so as, um, baffling as it was at first, um, I was surrounded by some pretty seasoned vets that were willing to, you know, hey, Herb, 6, 12 months, you know, 18 months, like you're going to be lost. I got you. It will click. It will make sense. And when it did, you know, then I kind of enjoyed the benefit of like the exponential curve just because I had that, that solid base, um, you know, beneath me.

And what about it surprised you?

Um, probably How— when it comes to B2B transactions, and you're dealing in, you know, million-dollar numbers, the people that are making these decisions have probably never made a million-dollar decision in their life prior to that, especially outside of work. You know, most people, the biggest thing they've ever bought is, you know, a car. Or a truck or a boat, right? Whether you're selling a million-dollar MRI or in my career now, a million-dollar cybersecurity solution, that is a lot. And so it surprised me that the decision-makers were often trying to navigate their buying process the same way they would, like I said, a personal asset like a car. And it's much more complicated than that. And so it surprised me that a lot of my time was spent educating them on how to buy versus me selling. I didn't— I don't really have to do a ton of selling as much as I do, you know, on the kind of educational side of buying.

And was it mostly emotional obstacles as opposed to logical obstacles, them getting comfortable with this new product and the risk and the change of spending that kind of money?

Yeah, yeah, that the, the emotional obstacles are always there. I, I like to always, you know, put a, put a stake in the ground around something objective, whether it's a financial outcome, an operational outcome, a clinical or say like a technical outcome, like putting words on paper, putting numbers on paper. Often I will, you know, learn my customer's mission statement, their vision, if they have like a 5-year strategic growth plan, and then often try to marry my proposal up to that. Because once you have those linkages and you give that to your customer, They then can almost use that as their own justification as to why they're doing it. And it feels less risky because when your solution ties into the broader task that they are charged with carrying out, they almost then have the ability to go sell for you. You know, you kind of leave that one-page executive summary behind, the document that can sell when you're not there.

And What things did you learn that most people still don't get? Because you, you came up in, I think, a great situation— high dollar amount, a lot of mentors, people that could help you along.

For sure.

But given your background, what surprised you about sales?

Um, you know, I I like the saying, you know, if you can't teach it, you don't know it.

Yeah.

And the biggest surprise was, um, the, the lack of financial acumen of the commercial sales team. Um, you know, not because they can't learn it, it's just no one's ever taught it to them. And like, I saw time and time again where, you know, I'd kind of be in the passenger seat, like Rodgers behind Favre, And, you know, the customer says, well, you know, we, we don't have money for that right now. And, you know, my colleague would be like, okay, well, you know, we'll check back in 6 months. And they— and it's like, well, you know, hold on, if you, if you could just help me understand, when you say you don't have money for that right now, when you say money, what do you mean? Oh, we don't have the funding. Right. So when it comes to a capital, you know, expenditure acquisition, Is there some sort of systemic process? Oh yeah, we have this enterprise resource planning system, ERP system, that we have to get our projects signed off on and budgeted. We can't execute until they're funded. Well, right. So when we're talking about doing this deal, would your ERP system be able to issue a purchase order against a project that is budgeted but not funded? And they're like, well, yeah, I don't see why not. And suddenly it's a completely different conversation. You're talking about budgeting versus funding versus invoicing. So many salespeople even use orders and revenue and cash collection, these words interchangeably. And understanding whenever you're sitting down in front of an end user, they're really not concerned with any of the, say, the 3 big financial statements. Once you get up to that director level, they got some something tied into running their portion of the P&L. Yeah, right. And you eventually get to the point where someone cares about the balance sheet. In today's world, you know, subscription is kind of where it's at. CapEx versus OpEx. Everyone wants to be the Netflix of whatever it is they do. Yeah, you know, but a lot of organizations are still behind when it comes to accounting for that. How do you, how do you subscribe, you know, to a $5 million enterprise networking infrastructure? Like, that used to be a one-time CapEx purchase. We know how to depreciate that. We got an army of accountants that are really good at it. You know, we got a whole cube farm upstairs. It's a completely different mindset.

Well, that's it. And early in my career, the CFO occasionally would get involved— our CFO would get involved in these large deals. And, you know, they were well into the 7 figures, and we would trying and get a leasing company involved so that they could lease the equipment over the lifetime of the program so that they wouldn't have to make it capital equipment. And just these simple little financial vocabulary made the deal so much easier to get done.

Right.

But you knew that from your finance background, right? That's right. Yeah, right.

And I found it to be extremely important to kind of clarify that stuff early and upfront. You know, it's really good to say, hey, I'm sure, you know, we're all speaking the same language, but just to ensure that I understand we're all singing from the same sheet of music, right? Like the capital acquisition request, you know, like that can be executed on today. You lock in the pricing, you don't have to worry about the lead times. You set your own shipment date and we will ship when you're ready in your fiscal year in which the project is budgeted and funded, so on and so forth. It's important to lay that out ahead of time because you give your customers and sometimes your teammates the opportunity to kind of learn in that moment without having to say, yeah, I don't know that, but I probably should. Because you want to keep them in that creative mode. You— the last thing you want to do is put someone in a defensive position. Where they feel less than, you know, they feel, you know, silly. Um, that's— I mean, the meeting's over at that point. So I always try to keep people in that creative space where they feel empowered, they feel educated, like I'm on their team, I'm trying to help them, because at the end of the day, that's why we're there.

And other than the financial expertise, what selling skill do you feel is your strongest?

Um, it's probably not a super, uh, um, you know, popular answer, but it's PowerPoint.

Yeah, it's the first time I've heard it.

Yeah, um, it's, it's PowerPoint. That's my, that's my Superman skill. Um, I can take a very, very complex concept. Yeah. And boil it down into a one-page easy-to-read, digestible format, you know, that kind of lays out the, you know, what's the WIFM, what's in it for me. You know, like I said earlier, tying back those objective stakes to financial outcomes, operational outcomes, technical outcomes, next steps clearly outlined. Because once I have that, it's almost like my ticket to the boardroom, right? That's literally the piece of paper, the ticket that I'm walking into these meetings with. As I'm working through the organization, getting everyone on board. And by the time that page hits the CEO's desk, everyone's already, already seen it. They know the story. It's clear as day. And again, that document can be there when I'm not to kind of sell on my behalf.

Yep.

I can control the messaging, make sure that, you know, none of these key points get lost. And so that's, that's what I do.

Cool. And what was the transition like from GE to Cisco? Because different market, different products, different challenges.

Yeah, well, to maybe start with your last point there, as far as challenges go, when I was, you know, at GE Healthcare, I was running the imaging business in Charlotte, North Carolina, and you go from one hospital to the next hospital to an imaging center to an imaging center. You basically pick up on, okay, this is kind of the trend of issues I see, and this is the solution in my portfolio, so I can match them up, marry them up, move forward. Coming over to Cisco, I have their top 10 accounts in Charlotte all outside of the healthcare industry, so I'm having to learn these different business models from manufacturing to entertainment, automotive. fashion, uh, hedge fund. I even have a chicken factory, chicken farm in my, um, in my list.

They need their internet as well, don't they?

They need networking too. Um, but at GE, you're always, you know, mindful of the fleet, the fleet of cath labs, the fleet of CT scanners. So it is like an ongoing working relationship. But the biggest difference I've seen so far, being in the seat for 100 days between GE and Cisco, is, you know, Cisco is the network. They are the IT infrastructure, you know, not just routers, switches, wireless access points, but all that information. Where's it stored? Into the data centers, you know, on-prem, in the cloud. And then last but certainly not least, most importantly, is the security aspect of it. how safe is your network? We also have the collaboration portfolio, and in today's world, hybrid work, work from home, interconnection. I mean, look at us now, right? So the relationships with the customers at Cisco seem to be a lot deeper because the Cisco team has to be there every day. I mean, literally on call 24/7.

Yeah.

So that if something If something's happening, you know, we can keep it alive, we can keep it up. It is a living, breathing thing versus, you know, um, when you're in the CapEx equipment world.

And what new skills did you have to develop?

It's, um, probably learning to be even more comfortable being very uncomfortable. You know, as an account manager, It's, it's your job to, you know, pull in the experts when you need to. You know, we got specialists for a reason. You know, at Thanksgiving dinner, my, my family said, what is it you do? I'm like, I put the right people in front of the right people at the right time. You know, um, at Cisco, I'm having to do that a lot more often.

Right.

Because it's, it's one— like, you can memorize, you know, certain texts and specs of equipment, But when it comes to very customizable cloud solutions, you get questions from customers, I mean, you couldn't even guess, you can never anticipate. And so having to have those architects, those super specialists at the ready and pull them in and kind of let them go, that's been a transition and something that frankly I've grown to enjoy.

And did the financial skills transfer well?

Yeah, probably even more so, just due to Cisco's, you know, kind of go-to-market business model when it comes to software subscriptions, shifting from CapEx to OpEx, you know, licensing agreements, enterprise agreements, so on and so forth, like being able to talk about moving funds from, you know, the one-time CapEx purchase, you know, over a lease, like you said, you know, throughout the course of a loan, or, you know, just a subscription-based model, um, being able to, to sit down and, um, have that conversation, you know, in a comfortable kind of regular manner, that's transferred pretty well.

And what skill, if you had, Now would take your career to the next level? Let's say I offered you a vitamin, and in it, if you took it for 30 days, you'd have that skill. What would that skill be?

That is a very good question. I don't know.

No weaknesses? No wish I could?

I, I wish I could. I wish I could have maybe a little bit more of an executive presence earlier in the sales process. I never try to start at the top of the organization. Yeah, I always try to, you know, kind of, you know, knock on the front door. And work my way up. Sometimes, you know, you run into obstacles along the way, and you kind of get blocked and the elevator's not working. And you know, you're not going to get any higher. When you do make it to the top, when you do make it into the C-suite, that's often an easier sell than it is, you know, at the lower levels of the org. Because their time is limited. You know, they're looking for the value points right up front. And if you have a clear, compelling argument that is an outcome-based solution tied into their strategic priorities and initiatives anyway, and the numbers make sense, usually moves pretty quickly. So that's something that I am working on. Just that, that, that confidence, maybe that strategy to, to not feel like I need to go top— or excuse me, bottom to top, you know, every time, but rather start somewhere in the middle and see if you can, you know, hit that, that trampoline up and just move things along a bit faster.

Yeah, certainly for the last 20 years, I think that the idea that, you know, an executive will mandate a product because a salesperson told them about it without that support from the user base, that doesn't exist anymore.

Right.

Other than like in sales, right? Where, you know, like Salesforce has no business selling to salespeople. They sell to the sales leader. The salespeople don't care.

Right.

It's the sales manager that cares. But in IT, if the implementers, the engineers say, eh, that's not the right fit, there's no CIO that's gonna say, no, make it the right fit. Those days are over.

Right, right.

Because there's just too much to know, and that's why they hire the people.

It's also very important to go wide in the organization, especially when it comes to IT. You know, anytime a company, you know, buys something from Cisco Systems, you know, that gets— it gets added to the IT team's to-do list.

Yeah.

Right? And if it's already a mile long and you're just tacking on to it, you know, that can, that can be exhausting. But getting into the different functions, whether it be, you know, marketing or operations or engineering, and kind of, you know, tethering your solution to a strategic initiative in one of those areas, it's often when you can kind of see it moved up the priority list, and then you kind of, you help your network engineers understand, you know, why it is, you know, that important and why it should be prioritized.

Is that your chief kind of obstacle, the priority list? Because that's typically what I hear in security and IT is that they like it, they want it, they can afford it, but you're number 17 instead of number 2. So we'll get to you in 2 years.

Yeah, the prioritization of the projects, that is an obstacle. I would also say breaking the status quo when it comes to going from on-prem to cloud. And when it comes to breaking out from some of the traditional networking to some of the more advanced solutions that often come through startups and acquisitions by Cisco, driving that adoption is something that we're working on every day.

And given it's Charlotte, are most clients laggards where they're kind of holding on to the on-prem, or technology is not their core business? It's kind of what they run their business on, but their real business is chickens.

My, um, my customer base, they seem to be very forward-thinking.

They are? Okay.

Yeah. You know, outside of New York City, Charlotte is, you know, the biggest US financial hub, again, second to New York. And I think that kind of innovation, that technology, that's kind of an energy that's here in Charlotte, even a logistics company that I serve, they have partnerships with MIT around machine learning.

Okay.

And artificial intelligence for their trucking fleet. Um, you know, automotive dealership, you know, they're all about the user experience and mobile devices and meeting their customers where they're at. You know, the day of, you know, the phone call going to the kitchen about your service appointment 3 weeks, you know, from now, that's now fully automated on, you know, the communication platform as a service, you know, via text. Hey, do you need an Uber Home while we service your vehicle? And then the automated notification, hey, can we call you an Uber to bring it back to pick it up? Yeah.

And what is it about sales that you know is true that most reps don't get yet?

Again, I think I would go back to simplifying the complex.

Yeah, that's our job, right?

If you can't teach it, you probably don't know it. And if you don't know it, your customer certainly doesn't know it. And if they don't know it, they feel stupid. If they feel stupid, they get defensive and you're done. So if you take an educational approach, take the time, take the time to practice with your friends, with your family, you know, pretend like the next meeting you're going to is Thanksgiving dinner and you have to explain how this all works. You know, rarely have I ever had a customer say, Herb, you're making this too easy, right? Like, people, people want to understand. And when you put them in that position of empowerment, where suddenly they may become more of the expert on this project than their boss, that's whenever people get excited and the adoption actually goes through.

And what do you use? Metaphors?

PowerPoint?

Stories? What What's your superpower there?

It's the PowerPoint and it's metaphors, probably analogies sometimes to a fault. Again, you gotta go back to what the customer knows. I already mentioned buying a vehicle, for example.

Yes.

So when you're going through the different options in your portfolio, I'll often say, hey, what do you drive? Oh, I have a truck. I drive a Ford. Okay, so this is a Maverick, this is a Ranger, here's your F-150, I'll sell you the Raptor. That's kind of too much. That's kind of too much. If you're pulling your boat, we're going to go Ranger, F-150. Now it's just a matter of prioritization. And you see the light go off, it clicks. So metaphors and analogies often go a long, long way.

Where'd that creativity come from? Because that's kind of orthogonal to finance.

Yeah. Well, prior to studying finance at Penn State, I studied a lot of German history and film. I was always very interested in the arts, big fan of music growing up. That was kind of a big part of my upbringing. Um, you know, there's always Fleetwood Mac, Elton John, Pink Floyd on in the house. You know, I came up through the period of, uh, you know, the, the Red Hot Chili Peppers, and I always, you know, really enjoyed music. Like I said, enjoyed the arts, enjoyed film. It was kind of always a passion of mine. Um, you know—

Did you play an instrument, or were you a practitioner of any of these?

No, nothing worth writing home about.

Um, you don't have to be good at it, but the practice of any performance art is very similar to sales.

Yeah, no, I, um, I, I played the, uh, the French horn and the guitar growing up.

Yeah.

Yeah, so, you know, Blackbird's not easy, but when you get it down, it's, it's a cool party trick.

Well, you, you also learned— did you have an instructor?

Oh yeah, yeah.

So that coach, right? Practice, repetition, little tiny improvements, finding those little distinctions.

Accountability.

Yeah, it sounds like sales, right?

Ralph Goldinger at May's Music Shop, he used to play, um, the Disney cruises. So he, he'd be gone for a month, you know, he'd give me the list. Here, here's the songs from The Killers that I want you to learn how to play.

Yeah.

And when Ralph gets back home 30 days later, Herbie better have practiced. Driving that accountability that was instilled very young.

And what's your why behind all this? What's the motivation?

I like people. I like spending time with people, getting to know people, helping people. I have a great family, you know, I have a great friend base. And, you know, you got to have a career of some sort, you know, you got to—

You got to make money, right?

You got to do something every day. And I mean, trust me, like the money in finance and accounting and auditing, you know, it's, it's great. Yeah, you know, but you're in the cubicle and you're at the water cooler and it's a grind. It's a grind. And I wasn't feeling like I was shaking as many hands as I I wanted to shake. I was having as many productive meetings as I wanted to have. And when you leave the office and you get in the company car and you're putting 50,000 miles on a year, you're meeting people. Yeah, you're, you're meeting people. And, you know, that gets some people going, and it struck a nerve with me. And I like— life on the road is, is good.

Cool. Hey, really appreciate your time today. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

LinkedIn. LinkedIn would be great. Herb Clan. Um, Brian, it was, it was great to connect with you again. Longtime fan of the show. Um, I love the clips. Sometimes they hit a little too close to home and I gotta check myself. Um, but you, you keep us honest and I appreciate everything you do.

See, very few people teach the large complex sale. They kind of have an idea how it works. But unless you've done it for a long time, won, lost, learned a lot at many different companies, many different industries, many different locations, because everybody thinks theirs is so unique. And there is, there's a lot of uniqueness to it. But there's also a lot of similarity. The purchasing process happens to be 95% identical among companies. The terms, the words, the process, the time. And if you're not prepared for this, if you don't know how it works, you're on the outside looking in, and the default is no decision. And what I've learned teaching this and seeing hundreds— even thousands of students go through it, is that if you're not prepared for it, you're reacting to it, and it takes 3 times as long. So why not be prepared for it? Why not focus on those deals that are closable and you have a strategy, a process, a system to closing it? But if a company Teaches you how to handle the simplest deals, the easy deals, the inbound deals. But do you have that? Maybe you do. If you do, congratulations. If you don't, go to b2brevenue.com right now. Check out the courses. Closing the Complex Sale will teach you how these deals are done, how to have a system that you can visually look at to know where you are and where you need to go, how to prepare for each type of meeting so it goes your way, how to learn from past deals, other people's deals, so that you don't have to repeat mistakes, that you have a prevention system in place to prevent the deals from going south. The other course is Start the Conversation, Get the Meeting. This enables you to start conversations with complete strangers online, on the phone, wherever you are. I teach you how strangers want to be approached and how you turn it into a business conversation. It's the exact opposite of what everyone else is teaching you on LinkedIn. It's not about a better spam, a better subject line, quick question, another little gimmick to get someone's attention, 1 out of 100. That clearly is not working because what do we need to do?

More, more, more, more, more.

When things are bad, everyone thinks doing more of it is more effective.

Eh.

Marginally. At best. How about better?

Uh-oh.

No, we're not doing better. We don't know better. Well, now you can learn better. And this approach has worked. I've been teaching this last 12 years, and it's even more popular than closing the complex sale. Because people think that just because you can talk with somebody, there's a deal. Maybe there is. But we have to talk with people. We have to engage them. We have to get them to open up, to share, to think through issues, situations, what's going on in their company with them. And then it can kind of turn into how we can help them. But if you start at the product or even the problem, People are in denial. Let's face it, you get a lot of calls, emails. Unless you're actively looking for something like that, you don't care. And how many people are actively looking? And are they looking in their inbox or are they looking on the internet? Interest is more likely to find you than you are to find it. So we have to Create it. And we can't start at interest. We got to start before then. I teach you how to do that. Do you want to learn? Or do you just want to be unhappy sending spam all day? Go to b2brevenue.com.

Check it out.

We'll see you next time.