HOW TO CRUSH IT EVEN IN THE MOST DIFFICULT OF SELLING SITUATIONS

Some sales are harder than others. Sometimes you get inbound. Sometimes you just have to go completely outbound. In today's case, we've got probably one of the more difficult of sales situations that I've observed. And believe me, in teaching the reps, because the only people who sign up for the course are really people who want to become better. And they're not getting inbound leads. And the company really isn't that established. They're competing against other bigger companies. More established companies competing for those same dollars and attention from the clients. But today's case is pretty, pretty hard, and it's one of the interviews that we get into a lot of tactics. Uh, you know, I tend to stay away from tactics in general simply because they're so contextual. And a lot of people say, and that, you know, when they call up and they say if Do you have experience selling in this area? And of course, I don't have experience selling in every area. But what I do have is a lot of experience understanding people. And yes, every industry has its uniqueness, its difference, its kind of culture. But they all have people. They all have money. They all have problems. They all want to do better. And there's the magic. And what ends up happening is people get too focused on, oh, my industry, my product, my rascals, they're different. They're so different, Brian. I don't think you'll be able to help me. Well, do you want help or do you just want to be right or feel right? Feeling right isn't really helpful. What you want to do is close deals. So if you're serious about closing deals, go to b2brevenue.com, check out the courses. Let's get into this interview. I'll sum it up at the end. This is one you don't want to miss. And even if you're not in this medical device space, you're going to get a lot out of this. So hear this guy out. Don't be one of those people that I can only listen to people who are my gender, race, industry, age.

Okay.

Cut it out. I get it. I'd like that too, but that isn't the problem that you want to solve. What you want to solve is, how do I sell more faster and smarter?

Here we go. Hey Ben, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Uh, sure. I've been in medical device, um, since about 2004. Um, started out in the pharmaceutical industry, From there, moved into open heart and cardiothoracic and worked at Covidien and then started to get the itch to work in startup companies and been doing that for probably about the last 10 to 12 years. So dynamic background. I've worked in lots of different industries, which I think made me pretty well-rounded and just enjoy it.

Yeah, I gotta imagine that medical device is a tough space. I don't know anything about it.

Medical device has been a tough space. Yes, I think with the recent pandemic, it's really changed the landscape as far as access to providers and working with patients and patient contact. And so it is dynamic, it has drastically changed since the pandemic the last few years. And a lot of reps that I've known over the years, we've had to kind of reinvent ourselves on how we interact with customers, how we get get face time and how you make that face time impactful. Yeah.

What do you like about it?

I like, I like the fact that I think you, you know, a good salesperson likes to sell, but I like the fact that when I sell something, I'm, I'm helping a patient out. I've been in the breast cancer space for about 12 years with a couple different companies and knowing that if I do my job well, I'm compensated. You know, fairly, but I'm also helping patients out. I think that that just it provides a additional gratitude to doing what we do and in the grind that we work on on a daily and weekly basis.

Yeah. And what makes a great sales rep in the medical device space? Because I take it you sold other stuff.

I did do some outside sales as far as marketing and advertising, but I I was kind of lucky. I was blessed to get into pharmaceuticals at a young age. I think what makes a good medical device rep is the ability to understand what the provider needs, when to push and when to pull, but also being respectful when you're either in their OR or you're in their office or you're meeting them somewhere in the hospital, that to be respectful of their time. I always use the example, you know, you're in their house, so whatever the rules are, and the rules at everybody's homes are different, make sure you respect their rules so they invite you back. Yeah.

But how do you get in?

Well, that's a, that's a, that's the million-dollar question. If I, how you get in, I mean, I think how I was able to get in and, and I've worked in multiple different specialties from plastic reconstructive surgery to OB-GYN to wound care is being a patient advocate, number one. So you wanna make sure that your product or, or your widget or whatever you're selling, there's a value-added benefit to the patient and being able to relate that to the provider or the nurses to get access to the provider because everybody wants their time. You know, when they're meeting with you, their phone's going off, their email's going off, they're getting paged, they're getting buzzed. So when you get their attention, you wanna make sure that you can be succinct, to the point, and get them something that's gonna create stickiness. Why would they want to use your product, your device, your test? whatever your widget may be, is separating yourself from the pack.

Yeah. And do you just do drop-ins or do you try and schedule appointments?

Yep. So in the current space that I'm working in, I'm in what's called genomic testing for breast cancer. So a lot of it is we're working with oncology providers, we're working with breast surgeons, scheduled times, scheduled meetings, working with the nurse navigators. Trying to follow back up once the patients had the test ordered. I think that, you know, I'm not a big show up and throw up guy, meaning data's great, that's the backup what your product does. But I want to create more value than just a data dump. So, hey, did you notice that on this test that this patient had a unique outcome? And tell me about how you're going to treat them and really trying to be an extension of their Their patient care team. Yeah.

And how'd you become good at it? Because I gotta believe that you, you don't have a medical background.

No.

Or biology background.

Just a business degree from Michigan. And I think, you know, I listen, you know, I watch, I observe. I worked for Covidien, which was a large company. I think it's called McKee Guyton now. But it was in the OR space. And one of the things that my manager said is you want to get invited underneath the light. So we did a lot of laparoscopic surgery. So the people underneath the light are the circulators, the nurses, the doctor, the PAs. You don't want to be the rep that's sitting in the background in the darkness. You want the doctor to feel that you provide enough value that they can engage you with questions about how your device is being deployed or used or how to place it or questions about it. And I think that was probably one of the best learning moments that I've had in my career was make sure whatever you do, whatever you sell, that you get invited underneath that light, that laparoscopic light, which is about a 5-foot circle of people that those providers trust to treat their patients.

But how did you earn that? I mean, that must— you know, it's not because you're a great guy. It's not because you can tell a good joke or you're funny.

I can tell pretty good jokes. I think through time, I mean, you gotta earn your stripes, not going in and trying to be a know-it-all, asking questions, you know, why do you do what you do and what makes you comfortable with whether it was my product or a competitive product? I mean, how do you get somebody to change a product? Well, were they trained on something? Tell me why you do what you do. I think that that's a very underused sales question in the field is everybody is trained on why their product is so good. But, but everybody that you're trying to sell an item to has been trained or is comfortable using something else. And if you can find out why they're comfortable with that, then you can identify maybe areas that your device is better than. And then you can start to build that credibility to get them to try it. And when they try it, then you talk about it. What did you like? What did you not like? Give me feedback. And I think that that's where I've been successful, is asking those questions and not just assuming that everything I sell is perfect, but also taking the good with the bad and trying to help give constructive feedback back to our companies or to the provider if they were using something maybe a little bit inaccurately or, you know, not properly. You don't do it in front of them in the room in front of the patient, but you pull them aside and say, hey, A couple other providers have done it this way. What are your thoughts on that?

Yeah. And what's your real competition? Is it that they're comfortable with the current device, that they've done it, they've used it, they know how to do it?

I would say up prior to the pandemic, yes. Since the pandemic, I think it's access. I think if we took a poll of 200 different sales reps right now, the biggest frustration we all have is You have rep tracks and you've got all these different hurdles to get over to schedule appointments, make appointments, get lunch meetings. And I think it's becoming more and more burdensome to us foot soldiers to getting in front of people by going through all these channels. And a lot of times the providers aren't even aware of it. I think that right now is the biggest hurdle. I think prior to that, it was absolutely, you know, they were trained. In their residency, they use this product; they just haven't been exposed to it. And how can you get them exposure? And are they comfortable with trying something new based on whether it's proprietary technology or data or new technology?

Yeah. Are many doctors open to device reps?

I think it's geographically relevant. Yeah. I mean, I cover Michigan and Northwest Indiana. Northwest Indiana is very difficult at this point in time. Areas of Michigan are open, some other areas are not. I think it comes down to your product. Are you selling a new product, an old product? Is there new data? Is your product a me-too or is your product revolutionary? I think that's where access becomes critical.

Yeah. And what separates the reps who make it The really great reps from the okay reps?

I think when you show value and you become a partner with the provider, not just selling them a device, I feel, you know, it's the old saying like, would they invite you to a barbecue? I want to be on their barbecue list. How do I get on their barbecue list? And so it's not just selling them a, you know, in my instance, a test. It's selling them a test. And why is that test important to the patient? How can they treat their patients? And when to, you know, when to, you know, really kind of dig in and challenge them and when to just sit back and be respectful because maybe they just don't understand something currently. And, you know, putting the burden on yourself, well, you know what, let me take that responsibility. Maybe I didn't explain that properly, but this is really what you should be doing. This is what's gonna make it best for your patient.

And how do you get on that barbecue list?

I honestly believe just, just being a genuine person. I mean, I watch it all the time. People that have an agenda. I try not to ever have an agenda when I have a sales call. I try to go in, I have an idea what I would like to talk about and I'm prepared for what I'd like to talk about. But my pre-call plan is essentially saying, where were we prior to this conversation? where would I like to go? But however, what does the doctor need? And I think that what I try to do is, is ask a lot of open-ended questions and listen a lot more than I talk. And I think that, you know, when I finish a sales call or I feel like I have buy-in, my final question is, well, explain to me what our rules of engagement are moving forward. And, and a lot of times they'll kind of give me a look. I'm like, well, do you want me to email you daily, weekly, monthly, text you? How do you want me to be At this point now, you're account manager because you've shown me signs of buying in. And I think that's how I've been able to get on the barbecue list.

Yeah, that's interesting. A lot of people haven't mentioned that. And what do most people say?

I've had some providers that—

They'll call you?

Well, yeah, I mean, it's one of the things that I do when I'm— when I feel like I've got buy-in is I say, have I earned the right to ask you for your cell phone number yet? And if they say no, I'm like, great, I'll continue to work on our relationship. They say yes, I let them know, hey, this is going to be for emergency only if we start to move forward. To me right there, that simple question shows either whether I've built— I've earned their respect and they want to give me that number or not. And I think that that is to me a sign that they're bought in, that I'm not just a sales rep. I'm I'm a partner in helping treat their patients.

And let's say the doctor likes your device, wants to use it on the next operation. Is it their sole decision or does the hospital get involved or anybody else?

Well, there's lots of different channels to go through. Majority of the facilities have value analysis committees or teams that a provider needs to be the champion of, that they have to fill out a form. form that goes in front of the committee. When I first started, it was as simple as getting buy-in, getting that next case scheduled, and you'd get what's called a scrub PO. We'd just scrub the product in. You know, you'd let the materials managers know that we're bringing it in and they'd write you a PO on the spot. Those days have kind of changed. So now a majority of the products must be pre-approved or have a hospital contract before you can utilize them. So You work in the provider's office, you get buy-in. From there, you get them to champion the product. Usually there's a specialist within the hospital system that covers a— whether it's OB-GYN or plastics or colorectal. They'll then take the product to a value analysis committee for approval. Once it's approved, then we— the saying is you've got your hunting license. Once you're in there, you can hunt, try to get those cases and find additional providers to utilize.

And is that a long, arduous process or is it just time-consuming or is it very impossible?

All the above. I mean, some facilities are much better at streamlining the process. It has drastically changed, meaning it might be a hospital system. It might be— if it— is it a large system that has multiple facilities or is it a community-based hospital that, you know, they have a meeting once a month? And so it can be very time-consuming. Absolutely. Yeah.

And how about as far as like the detective work on which doctors, which hospitals you work with? Because they're not all the same. Some are open-minded, some are, don't bother us. We're, we're just getting caught up in the last 10 years.

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, that, that goes back to how do you separate yourself from your competitors is how do you identify whether it's a large volume user or a, physician influencer or somebody that's a forward thinker. Having worked in startup companies, a lot of the products that I've helped bring to market have been first to market. And so we're coming in and we're potentially telling a provider what they're doing is completely— is good, but we've got a better option to do it. So some buy in, some sit back, I think. And once you get somebody that's on board with you and supportive of you, it's You know, the old friends and family, who, who do you think that you'd be comfortable with? I'm gonna name drop you to Dr. So-and-so. And expanding your, your net that way is where I found to be the most successful is making sure you name drop the right names in, in, in a space with a device that, that person has an impact in the community.

Yeah. I gotta believe that these doctors do talk to each other.

Absolutely. I mean, you go to a convention, everybody's rubbing elbows and, you know, they either went to school or, or they've covered, you know, call for them or vice versa, especially in the subspecialty. So they do know each other. You always wanna make sure before you name drop, you know, you find out who the providers are that they respect, right? You say the wrong name and you can lose credibility immediately.

So because one of the strategies I had, I called it the kingpin strategy. You found the leader in the space that people tend to replicate.

Yes.

And if you could close that person, you got the other 9 the rest of the year.

Absolutely. And, you know, everybody wants to slay the dragon. In some instances, it's, you know, getting the smaller ancillary hospitals around the big hospitals and you put the intrinsic pressure. I've done that here in Michigan where I have not gotten some of the larger, we'll call it teaching institutions initially, and I've gotten the community-based hospitals. And then when I get in front of the teaching-based institutions, it's kind of that push and pull. And I say, well, if, why are the community-based hospitals using, you know, more innovative technology than you guys? And, you know, you kind of plant that seed of doubt like they're behind the times and, So both strategies work. Sometimes you're able to walk right into the large institutions and close them and then everybody else wants to follow them. And sometimes you have to go around the large institutions and kind of put pressure on them that they're not providing the same type of quality care that the community-based facilities are.

Yeah. And when you're looking to hire reps, what do you look for? What are the key characteristics for a device rep?

There's a lot of former college and professional athletes that are working, working medical device. And I think it's because the tenacity to be able to do, play a collegiate or professional sport, somebody that's got good communication skills. And a very, I think interpersonal communication is very critical, because you have to make sure that the janitor to the CEO is important to you. And you never know who can be your go-to to help you out. I mean, I've been able to close facilities by friending nurse navigators who had enough power and voice to make changes. And a lot of people would, you know, would just say, well, they're just a nurse. Well, they're not a nurse. They're very influential in how they treat their patients, and they're with the patients for a very long period of time. So not talking to everybody. Everybody's got— everybody's job wherever they are, is an important aspect to whether you can get a product into a facility or get somebody converted. Yeah.

And where'd you get your tenacity?

Probably, I mean, I played a college sport. So just training and focusing on both academics and athletics through college, I think, allowed me, you know, the ability to balance and still stay focused. And, you know, you You work with teammates and you depend on teammates. And I think that that's very similar to the medical device industry. The doctor or the surgeon is providing the surgery, but they're depending on me to provide them a device that works. If it doesn't work, we need to talk about it, we need to fix it, we need to find out how or why it misfired or it didn't do what it's supposed to do.

And I gotta imagine you're recruited quite aggressively because when these companies come out with a new device, they don't have a lot of time to waste or make mistakes. What are some of the risks it takes hiring the wrong person?

Yes, working in the small startup environment that I've been in, you do get a lot of calls. I've had the opportunity to work with 2 breast cancer companies and a couple wound care companies and a plastic surgery company. It's all about the, I guess, the long-term vision of what they want to go with. You have to bring in reps that wanna be leaders, meaning we might have to help identify new marketing materials or a better process or, you know, what does the map of success look like? Because a lot of times you might be the first wave of sales reps or the second phase and there's, there's not a, there's not a playbook. And so we have to be able to, you have to have the confidence to know that the playbook might not be completed. But there's a plan, and if we work together, we can make this plan work and hopefully be successful.

And I've got to imagine that you have a playbook on how to evaluate these companies of— because—

Yes. Yes. You know, are they new? Are they a me-too? I would say over the past 6 or 7 years, I've gotten much better at evaluating. I think at times I would be very intrigued at things because I thought that they would be— they're good, and I'm glad I didn't make those moves. That's the best way to put it. You don't want to go work for a company, then 6 months later they don't have their funding or they don't get FDA approval. So, you know, dot your i's, cross your t's, make sure that, um, you know, they've got a 2 to 3 year run rate on finances, especially if you're going to be the first to market.

And how about a solid understanding of timeframes, process, Yes. Everyone's under pressure, right? It's everyone wants the result.

Yeah. I mean, I, but I mean, I like to eat what you kill mentality and that's what a lot of these startups are, you know, however many widgets you sell, you get paid on. And those are the type of people that I like to surround myself with. Those are the type of people that, you know, they're fun and you enjoy working with. because they want to help each other out. And I've, you know, formed a lot of good close friendships with guys and ladies all over the United States that we've picked up the phone on a Friday night when everybody else is, you know, at their barbecues, and we're talking about, hey, how'd our week go? What did you, you know, what did you do differently? Or tell me about that win. And you're sharing across platforms. And I think that that's why I like the medical device startup environment. Yeah.

And, and how do you stay current? Because, you know, this is all big words, science studies. It's gotta be 99% new to you because—

Yeah, I, I think, you know, just kind of, you have to own your craft. Like, you know, like whether you're in OB-GYN or plastics or oncology, you know, there's data every day that comes out, but what's really truly relevant And part of that is asking the providers, you know, what, what publications do they follow or do they have a, you know, a Google alert set for anything? I, I believe LinkedIn is one of the most powerful platforms out there. I'm on LinkedIn 2 to 3 times a day, whether it's reading or watching podcasts like yourself or following people that I believe have, you know, similar likenesses that I have or what companies have gone on or who's going where and Every time a friend or a connection gets a new job, I always look at the company to see what are they doing? Is that something that would be interesting for me or what? You know, I wonder why did they do what they do? Very similar to what I asked my doctors. Then I pick up the phone and call people and, hey, I just saw you made a move. What made you make that move? Even though I might not be looking, I just want to know what's out there. I think that knowledge is very important.

And You know, each sales job, there's the, the work smarter part and then there's the work harder part. And which is medical device? Sounds like it's both, but one of them, the top rep, is he the hardest working or is he the smartest worker?

I believe your top reps at every company are the smartest working people out there because I can go make 40 cold calls this week and accomplish nothing, or I can make 2 impactful cold calls or 2 impactful calls with maybe a dabbler, somebody that's dabbling in our product, and I can get them to be, you know, expand their utilization or pick up a partner. You know, I've always been a big believer that don't ask me how many calls I've made today, ask me what impact I've made today. And, you know, I know a lot of organizations look at You know, how many sales calls are on Salesforce or this or that, and how much time you spending with your customers and who's trending up and who's trending down. That's all great information. But, you know, I think that owning your customers and having your customers wanna pick up the phone and call you is more important than making 40 sales calls a day. And, and I say this all the time, I wanna be invited through the front door. at your practice or in your hospital, and I wanna leave through the front door because I've provided some type of impact or you respect what I do.

And where did this— because you've got a well-rounded empathetic style, you're thinking like they're thinking.

Yes, that, that's it. I mean, I love when we do— I mean, I'm sure you've done these too, when you get to do the personality profiles. Every couple years somebody wants to do a personality profile to find out why the reps do what, what are the characteristics that the best reps have. And they're never the same because how I sell in Michigan might be completely different than the approach somebody has to take in Texas or California or South Carolina. You know, I might be a little bit more hard driving or more, not confrontational, but succinct with my messaging than somebody else is. But that's just the nature of the people that you're calling on. And so, you know, that I think is just as important as to be— to being successful is, you know, when I used to cover majority of the United States, I didn't take the same approach in Paducah, Kentucky that I did in Detroit, Michigan. The people are You just have to interact differently. And I think that that's a very important role that reps should have as well.

Yeah, I mean, I used to cover a third of the country at one company and I noticed the differences, but a lot of the things still, the respectfulness, the asking them what they care about, the empathy seemed to work. Yeah, the tempo and the speed of which they talk and what they talk about changes, and how quick you go through rapport into the guts, and how blunt they are about sharing their reaction to it changes.

Correct. I mean, you're gonna get different reaction based on where you're based, and, and it goes back to like What would I mention earlier? You have to be able to read the room. Is this an in-your-face type of discussion or is this a, okay, let's ask a lot of questions. Once they determine that it's their idea, they're gonna buy in. And how do I get them to that, get them to that endpoint? Meaning, you're right, this is a great idea, doctor. I'm glad you thought of it. Let's move forward.

Yeah. And what do, what do most device reps do wrong? I'm sure you see a lot of, less than successful ones, either compete against them or work with them or have worked with them?

I think what they do wrong is they don't ask enough questions. You know, I've been involved in a lot of field sales training as well. And if you think about the cycle of hiring a new person, you hire them, then you make them study and read, and they have to memorize all this information so they can do what? They can go out there And just tell the doctor how smart they are, right? And I always say that that information is great, but what if they don't care? What if they don't really care how many people were in your clinical study or in this arm or this? You have to find out what they care about. And so what I feel like the majority of reps make mistakes is is going in with an agenda. They are going to tell them whatever the newest, latest, greatest information is, whether the doctor. cares about it or not. And if you take a different approach and you go in and say, hey, did you hear about this? What are your thoughts on it? And they engage you back, that's different. But too many people go in with an agenda versus going in with identifying a need or a want or filling in a need or a want.

Thinking of themselves and how great the product is, is gonna impress somebody.

Absolutely. You know, I don't think it is. I think you need to find out what they need or what they want. You know, I mean, but—

How'd you come to this style? Because, I mean, you're very relaxed-paced.

Honestly, by making some very unique job decisions in my career. I worked for one company where I flew into Chicago. I had 4 hours of training. They handed me a map and a spiral binder and they said, good luck. And I was like, okay, this is what we're gonna do from here. So I think, you know, when I look at job opportunities or people call and approach me about new opportunities, one of the things I say is, if I was the sole owner or this is just my company, What does good look like and what does great look like? And do I think I have the ability to accomplish both? And in what period of time? And what's it going to take to get there? And, you know, one of my companies that I worked with, I went from a large 6-figure commission job to a company that sold $100,000 in the— or $400,000 in the previous year. And I looked at my wife and I said, well, we're in big trouble. I gotta figure this out or I gotta find another job. And I ended up figuring it out. And it's probably my most accomplished and proud company that I worked for because when I ended up leaving there, they were acquired, but I was generating almost $2 million annually just out of Michigan area. And when I took it over, it was doing about $40,000 a month. And so, you know, I don't need a lot. I just want to make sure I have a good product and I want to make sure that what I have people need. And I think I can figure the rest out. And I think that's kind of why I've gotten to where I'm at now, where it's, all right, what do we have? Is it good? Is it great? Or can we make it better? And what else do we need to do to drive value in this, in this space for providers and patients?

Well, hey, this has been a great conversation, Ben. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

I'm on LinkedIn. Obviously that's where you and I have met, but I'm not a, I'm not really a big social media guy. So if people like follow me on LinkedIn, I think my LinkedIn profile is just my name, Ben Blackwood. And, you know, I appreciate your time. It's a pleasure and everything that you do. I think your videos are great and I enjoy, I enjoy the serious ones, but I also enjoy some of the The humor that you bring to the table when it comes to sales and quotas and expectations. And, um, you know, I, I appreciate everything you do.

In the office hours I did yesterday, we had a similar case with, uh, somebody who was in the course in this market and who's going from a well-established product that was known and understood to an unknown product, unknown company. But a great market. And the sale changed a little bit. So the same tactics didn't work. What we have to do is understand how our clients make decisions. Now, this is independent of industry, product. It has much more to do with those emotions and our emotions as well. And what I'm learning from working with reps is they get— we get stuck. I get stuck. We all get stuck in this fog of war where we are emotionally engaged in a sale and we're blinded from not so much obvious, but things that we should be seeing. And this goes to a couple of things. One, That if we don't understand the game we're playing, it's very easy to choke, panic, and react versus thinking. Now, reacting and thinking are total opposites, meaning that when we react, we're going from instinct, and our instinct is to survive, not thrive. Our thinking is about thriving. So what I teach in the course is that we have to make these habits ingrained in us, practice before we need it. Because you know the old quote, everyone's got a strategy until they get punched in the face. But you still have a strategy. It could be just to react instinctually. Which most likely is going to be wrong. Think about when you get cut off in traffic. What's the reaction you feel like? You flick your lights, you hit your horn, you give them the bird, you yell at the people in the car, you get all upset. That's reaction. That's not thinking. Thinking is like, oh, that guy's a jerk. Who cares? I'm going to listen to some more music. And chill out. That's thinking. Reacting is getting all mad and angry because somebody cuts you off. Now, in sales, we do this all the time. Send me a proposal. What's the price on this? Oh, I'm not interested. No budget. No time. These things are our reactions. Now, if we don't have a planned strategy to either prevent it Or respond to it, we're going to react, not think. We're going to hit the horn, give them the finger, and do things that feel good in the moment but are not cognitively useful. And to do this, you have to understand the game you're playing first. Understand that this is natural, that they are going through their reactions too. They're not thinking. They're reacting. So we have to really get into their head, build rapport with them, get them to understand that we have their best interest in mind. And that takes a little bit of time, but without it, what do we have? We're just a vending machine. We're a proposal generator. We're a question answerer. We're a bot. Not a salesperson. We need to be salespeople. And doing that is a profession and one of the highest professions out there. Let's face it, where else can you make plastic surgery money with a high school education? Nowhere. Embrace it. But train yourself like the doctor, like the lawyer, like the accountant, like the athlete that you are. Because our performance every time that we're talking with somebody requires us to have a strategy and have that training. Because when we get punched in the face with objections or delays or misunderstandings, whatever it is, we need to have a process in place. We need to understand where the other person's coming from and how to guide this in the direction that we want. That's what selling's all about. It's not about subject lines. It's not about call to actions. You know, any— anybody who reads a book can copy them. Everyone's doing the same damn thing today and getting the same mediocre results. And we're copying the people that are the unicorns that— because let's face it, there are products that are fantastic that have a Wonderful product-market fit already and are easier to sell. If you have that, congratulations. You're probably not listening to a sales podcast. You're probably sitting on a beach trying to pick out which new car and summer house you want. But most of us are in— and they hire salespeople because it's not easy. If it was easy, they could just have a website. They hire us salespeople because we need to communicate with other people. And then they forget that and they put pressure on us. And this is where management kind of reduces revenue versus increasing it. But it doesn't matter what they do because they're not going to pay you for putting up with their crap. That's your base salary. They only pay you for the deals you close. That's what you have control over. Take that control. Sign up today, b2brevenue.com. There's 2 videos, one on how the courses work, the other one is on which course is right for you. They answer 99.9% of the questions, but if you still want to talk to somebody and you're ready to sign up— this is not a chit-chat or a therapy session, it's to talk about the courses and answer your questions, get you more comfortable with it— there's a little button on the website to do that. You can submit your questions, but We typically don't reply to them if they're already in the videos because we figure if somebody isn't going to take the time to watch the videos, they're probably not going to take the time to sign up. And the questions are usually, oh, what kind of discount can I get? There's no discounts. These are priced for individual reps. I'm not negotiating with anybody. You want it? The course is well worth it. There's hundreds of hours of great case studies, office hours, one-on-ones. More than you can consume in a year, but you want to consume the stuff that's most applicable, and those repetitions are critical. Don't be the know-it. Oh, I know it all. I read the book. Oh, please.

So what?

Okay, can I wake you up at 3 in the morning and you know the answers? No, I can't. You don't know any of the answers. You know the little platitudes that go along with the book. That's not selling. That's not skills. That's parroting. A bird can do that. What we want to do is what the people need. Why not save several years of trial and error, maybe a decade or two, and condense it down to this one year where you really focus on yourself? We'll see you there. Thanks for listening. If you see my stuff fly by on LinkedIn, give it a little like, a little comment, a little share. We'll see you next time.