HOW TO FIND THE WHY BEHIND THE WHY THEY WILL BUY IN B2B SALES

One of the side effects of being in sales is we become very good at persuading ourselves. Meaning that we know how to, and we learn how to persuade others with questions, with statements, with stories. That we all of a sudden, we apply it to ourselves. Can be helpful, but it can also be hurtful. Hurtful because we can convince ourselves that something is true that isn't true, or something that's false that is true. And this creates a problem because we have false beliefs. And everybody's pretty good at this. We call these rationalizations. Um, let me give you an example, uh, this week. There was a— I did a post, a video post about practicing in sales and giving brevity pitches, the example about a great way of doing it. And this older sales rep goes, nah, you gotta, you gotta do it in real world. It doesn't matter unless it's doing in real world. A pilot isn't going to learn how to fly on the ground. He's got to get up in the air and fly. And I got into it with him. I go, well, why do we have fight-flight simulators then? Well, yeah, well, that's different. No, he was rationalizing why he doesn't want to use a particular product or an idea. And I get it. If you're used to winging it your whole life, the last thing you want to do is prove That winging it is not good. I know winging it is the dominant sales process today, but let's face it, winging it is reactive by nature. You're winging it. It's not proactive. It's 100% reactive. And since it's reactive, you're not preparing for it. So you're putting no thought, practice, or concern about it. And here's the challenge, is that he's talking himself out of making more money. And he thinks he's smarter by doing that. That's the challenge with rationalizations. Now, here's the thing. I asked him, have you tried it? Of course he hasn't tried it. I go, would you like to try it? We scheduled a call. And I go, look, tell me, tell me somebody that you would ideally like to have a conversation with. What company? Look them up on LinkedIn. I feed it the URL for the company, the competitor, the person he'd like to speak with. And I go, here we go. And I did it. And he goes, wow, that, that was pretty realistic. Is, is that a real person? No, it's AI on the other side. It was that realistic. And I go, you try it. No, no, no, I don't want to try it. You know why he didn't want to try it? Because he wasn't good at it. Because he likes to wing it. And he didn't want to try it because he didn't want to get a It gives you feedback. He didn't want feedback either. And I asked myself, or I asked managers, who would you hire? The person who would sit down and practice and want to get better at sales, or the person who thinks they're innately talented and like to wing it? Now, that wing-it person may have more experience, and they, they're going off of intuition. And they may be pretty good, but they may also be pretty bad. And if it's a simple sale, it may be enough. If it's a complex sale, it's not enough because it's too complex. Let's get into this interview today. I think you're going to get a lot out of it, and especially when you're viewed as a commodity, how do you differentiate? And also, don't talk yourself out of making more money. And the best way to make more money in sales is to become better. It's the fastest way as well. Everyone thinks it's getting another job. It's really becoming better at selling. And the way to get better at doing it is not practicing on your real customers, because when you screw them up, you'll never sell them. The best way to practice is on brevitypitch.com.

Check it out.

Here we go. Hey Bill, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Yeah, so I've been in sales for most of my professional career. I started off in the telecom industry as a young young fella as a technician back in the late '80s. I pivoted to the security industry for a couple decades. So security meaning the alarm and camera and access control technology industry. I started my own company. I partnered up with another fella and then that partnership ended. I came back into the telecom industry. So Well, sorry, when that partnership ended, I went back to my alma mater in the security business and then eventually found my way back into telecom. So it's been an interesting journey and yeah, I wouldn't trade it for nothing.

So you like the soft, easy markets, right? Security and telecom.

Yeah, yeah.

Nobody else does it. Easy.

No. Complex sales?

What do you like about sales?

I think what I like best about sales, and it's funny, I'm not the biggest fan of the word sales, and I don't want to come off like that guy. But, you know, I'm in industries where it's very consultative. You know, it's very, we're not really selling something. You know, we're really hoping to provide a solution that's going to solve a problem, right? And at the end, if you buy something, yeah, I've sold it. But that's really not my process. My process is to learn about you and what your issues are. And hopefully I have something that's going to, you know, make your business work better, communicate better, look better. So that's— and when you walk away, And you know that that person is better off before you met them. Or they give you a referral and you've built those relationships and people are like, oh, hey, I was talking to so-and-so and you did a great job. That's really— it's tough to beat that feeling.

But how do you create that scenario in your world? Because we view it, you view it, I view it that way. But the prospect may not view it that way. That just seems like, oh, here's Bill, there's Brian, there's Bobby, there's Joey.

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a good question because I, I, and I think the best approach, and, and I learned this early in, in my career, is don't get caught selling. You know, it's, you really, if you're listening, you know, and you care, if you're listening and you care, It'll naturally evolve because not every deal is worth doing.

Absolutely.

Or maybe there's not a solution that you can provide, but maybe someone else can. And that's happened many times. People say, Bill, I need the internet to be— I need 10 gig of fiber. And it'd be like, ah, you know, but if we do it this way, you really don't actually. We can get you— everyone's telling you you need this, but if we just play with the pieces a little bit, we can, we can actually do a really great job for you with that. And, and so it's, it's just, it's, yeah, it's really listening and setting the stage, I think, is the most important part.

And what keeps you in this space? Is it tenure? You just know it really well, or you love it?

Well, yeah, I mean, it's certainly nothing that I ever Thought I'd be, because I'm a director of sales, so I manage a team. And you know, all things being equal, if I'm being honest, you know, I love the sale. I love the hunt. I love the kill. You know, that's that's in my blood. And so now, you know, I don't get to do that very often or really at all anymore. However, what keeps me in is is when I when I I get this this fresh. Piece of clay that I get to, you know, I know there's talent in there.

Twist into your idea.

Yeah, I get to just play and mix and, you know, and nurture and grow. And all of a sudden they start doing this and, you know, and they— and that, that's a kick. Like, that is the most rewarding thing I think I, I've really experienced in my sales careers is when you see, you know, the people that, that you're nurturing, you know, just, just kill it. It's just You love it.

Well, let's talk about that. What do they typically are doing differently than what they should when they come into that ball of clay?

What are they doing differently? Well, a lot of it is because a lot of the people that I have on my team were not in telecom before. So they had certain attributes that I, that were really attractive to me, right? So I mean, I've turned away, you know, like, rock stars, if you will, in the industry, because I just had a very strong belief that they would come in and really be more disruptive and be more kind of, you know, less teamworky, less, you know, the very lone wolf kind of, you know, their egos. And, you know, that can be very disruptive to a team. To me, team means a lot.

Yeah.

And so I think what they're doing differently is not who they are, But just just learning the ropes, you know, and just kind of you know and sticking to it and and getting through the bad days and and realizing you know that that you know those are going to happen and and you know and celebrating the wins properly and and and clear my job is to make sure that that I've cleared a path for them and I've built some kind of you know highway that that that they can see a future for themselves and and. And, you know, so even if they got to take a left or right turn once in a while, that they, you know, that's okay. They're gonna succeed and they're gonna have a lot of growth, you know, in their career.

Because usually people, when they are getting into sales, they follow their instincts naturally, right? They got a feeling.

Yeah.

But that feeling tends not to be the right feeling.

You're not wrong. Yeah, and I'm as guilty of it as anybody. And even today, I've been in sales for a long time, and every once in a while I'll slip back into some bad habits. Or just, or you know what, I'm gonna say, you know, sometimes we can get a little lazy.

Yeah.

Sometimes, you know what, when we know, hey, I've got to do a little bit more homework, I've got to do, and you don't, and you know, you think, sometimes your ego gets in the way, and, oh, I can wing it, I got this. And then you walk into a situation and you're just, You're beaten like a rented mule. It's just terrible, right? You're just kind of like, oh, I could have done better than that.

You just feel your foot going into the trap and then all of a sudden you're upside down hanging from a tree.

Terrible. It's terrible. Yeah, I know. Yeah. You dust yourself off because you know you do better, you know? And so you're more disappointed in yourself than anything else.

That's it. Because it takes time. to have that mindset that you described about going in there, listening, trying to understand the situation, what they're trying to accomplish and what's behind that.

Exactly right.

Right. Because 6 gigabits is their solution. But what's causing that request?

Yeah, 100%. Right. That's exactly right. Why are we here? Why do you think you need this? Let's start there.

Yeah.

Now, someone's told you that, or were they trying to sell you something because there's a lot of money in it? Or did they really dig? Did they peel the layers back and go right to the, to the, to the, to the studs? You know, let's get to the studs, build on that, and then we'll know where we are. And there's a lot of times this solution can't all be done in one shot. Okay, well then let's build a roadmap. You know, let's, let's, let's figure this out. It might be a 5-year plan. That's okay. But you should know now I mean, it's too important to just kind of like, especially in communications where, you know, some people, it's like, you know, they pick up the phone, they're like, okay, well, my phone works until it doesn't. Why would I do anything? Right? It's just kind of like your car. Well, I'm not going to take it into the shop to get it all rehauled. It's working. It's getting me from A to B. However, when you experience the pain of not having a phone system or your phones work or your internet shut down, you know, I, One of my sales fellows gave me the analogy that I always go back to. It's kind of like, you know, when you're in the airport and you got the cheap flight or whatever, and all of a sudden it's just, it's a nightmare and you can't get ahold of nobody, you don't know what's going on. Or you have a, sorry, what do you call it? Travel agent, you know, and you know, I just gotta call my travel agent, they'll fix me. That's kind of like where we like to paint the pictures. Like, you know, yeah, you can certainly get that free VoIP system online, but, uh, you know, what's gonna happen when you— when it doesn't work one day? Because that will happen. You, you want that experience. And if you can sort of communicate that properly without fear selling or— but it's just reality, you know. It is reality. All of a sudden you can't communicate for a couple weeks. What would that feel like? Well, how would that affect your business? Then you get people thinking. It's like, yeah, you know what? That would probably be a bad, bad day or week or whatever.

And so what do you think if you were to build, let's say you had a DNA lab, how would you build the perfect salesperson for your market?

Oh man, Brian, you got good questions.

What mix?

You should be doing this as Hot Ones. Hey, we'll just do wings while you ask all these questions.

Okay.

Geez, a lab, like a little Frankenstein salesperson. Yeah, you know, I think I would build someone, first of all, that at the very least, at the basis, they have to have integrity, right? They have to genuinely care that they are doing the right thing for the client, that if they need to, you know, if they're not the right solution, that they're honest, And then they can at least give them advice in that direction, and then not just always try to, okay, well, I can't sell this, I'll sell something else. And the ability to learn, I think with the youth today and with technology, how it's moving, they learn very differently than maybe Brian, maybe you or I did. I mean, things were, Definitely, you know, our learning paths were very different. Now, they're extremely dynamic. You know, you can get a Harvard degree at home.

Just get on YouTube.

Listen to podcasts. Yeah, podcasts. I mean, and there's a lot of research that really suggests that the youth today, they'll probably be— because with AI and everything else, and we're really heavy into AI and and learning that they'll probably change their careers or have to be re-educated 2 or 3 different times. So someone that's willing to change. So the ability and the adaptability to change is actually one of our values here at Sunco. But I mean, the ability to embrace change is very, very key, that it's not going to shake you, that you realize, okay, that's all right, we've got to pivot, we can move with this, and we're going to learn something new. There are some people that are just, they're very adverse to change in you know, because they've been very successful, you know, and it's like, and then the, the fear of like trying something new is, is real. It's real. And I feel it. I mean, if like I try something new or a whole new, and it's like, oh God, how am I gonna— this is really, we're gonna take this on. All right. And you brought up caring.

What does that mean to you in your world?

Uh, that When you really care about something, or like your solution or your client, everything else falls into place, Brian. I mean, you know, you're really, you know, you're going to your team and you're pleading your case and you're like, this is what, this is their problem, right? And, you know, and sometimes you don't get the answers you like, you know, and sometimes you gotta keep digging. Sometimes, you know, you'll get a team member that's just, you know, just maybe not hearing you, or sometimes maybe I haven't heard the client But I mean, if you really care, you'll know that at the end of the day, that solution that you're providing is going to make their business better, their lives better, or, you know, that— and if you care, everything else will fall into place. If you don't, if you think, oh, I just got to put A and B and C and D together because that's what the book says, I think you're going to have a lot Have a harder time succeeding, in my opinion.

And I think a lot of reps don't care as much as they should because it hurts when you lose when you care so much. If you don't care—

That's a really good point, Brian. Honestly, that's a super good point because, you know, sometimes I don't even, you know, sometimes appreciate that, you know, we put a lot of work into it, you know, and it's kind of my job to say, hey, yeah, dust her off, we'll get the next one. But really taking the time to maybe talk about that, about, yeah, you know what, we really wanted this one and we, for whatever reason, you know, it fell through. We, you know, we didn't get it. Or maybe we've lost a client. You know, sometimes that's really tough, you know. And so, you know, and especially someone that you've, you've had a relationship with that, you know, sometimes you take advantage of those and, you know, you could be like, oh yeah, he's Brian, he'll never leave me, he loves me, you know, blah blah blah. And all of a sudden you find that, oh, Guess what? Brian's leaving. That is really hard. And the best you can do is give them an amazing offboarding experience. So, maybe they'll come back. But I mean, other than that, other than that, it's a tough one. You're right. I don't spend it. I'll say this. I don't spend enough time talking about that as maybe I should. I'm glad you brought that up.

Well, That's it. Because, you know, when a rep really cares about a deal, they're going to go the extra mile. They're going to be looking for what else they can do. They're going to be wondering what the competition's doing. They're going to try and find the extra step that the client wants to see.

Oh, 100%. Yeah. Even internally, you know, sometimes you go to your resources and you're just like, yeah, you know what? Oh, man. Really? It's going to cost that much. Sometimes you sometimes go to your vendors of when the guys that they take advantage of you, like oh I know Bill's not going anywhere. He's going to always buy my fiber. He's going to always buy this or whatever. I'm like ah you know yeah there's other players. You know because at the end of the day I have responsibility to my client, not you. You know they have to trust that I have done everything and I haven't just phoned it in and taken the easy route every time. No sometimes it is easy, but a lot of times no these are These are complex solutions and they take work. Yeah. And it means a lot for sure.

And, you know, certainly as a manager, your reps want to know that you care about them beyond just their quota, just beyond their contribution to your number.

Really? No, I'm just kidding. Yes, of course.

I hear that. I got a card once.

Yeah, yeah, Hallmark. Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's, it's kind of, um, I honestly believe, because I, I, I'm not, you know, it's not a, it's not just a bumper stick. I really personally do, you know, have an investment in, in my, my, my, my team, and, and, and I really want to understand, you know, what's, what's gets them up and what keeps them going. Because if I don't know that, how do I motivate? How do I, how do I get them, you know, to, to, to be excited about something? You know, and if I don't, you know, and maybe they're maybe they're having some struggles at home, or maybe there's you know or there's some you know issues that that we need to work out. And you don't, I don't think you can you can learn those things if you're just asking questions. If you're just like, oh, how's your day? Okay, good. How was your day? You know, no, yeah. I mean, just having just stopping by, you know. Hey, just seeing one pass you out. Hey, let's. Have a quick game of crib or whatever, and just just you know chat things out and whatever. You learn a lot. But I mean, we're we're all from you know pretty pretty tight. But I mean, it's it's uh you just gotta I think. But you also have to want it. Like I generally like I like talking and I like learning and and I hate small talk. I mean, if there's anything about sales that I probably don't like is sometimes when you're in the networking or whatever environment and you got to start with a small talk, it's like. Ugh, I hate it. So, so my team all knows that I, I like just talking, you know, deep and, and getting right at it.

Right. Because as a leader, when you have their back and you want to give them feedback, they take it that it's in their own interest, that it's not you judging them. It's not Bill O'Brien saying, oh, that call didn't go well. It's like, I noticed this thing. Would you like to talk through it? If they sense that it's about making them better versus just judging them.

It's very true. And I think, you know what, being able to be a bit vulnerable on yourself as well. Like, you know, I've shared numerous things that I never thought I would share with people that I work with. And, you know, I'm I tend to be, you know, kind of a person that I'm not, I don't really, you know, get to be deep myself, but I mean, I've went there and, you know, and I think I need to be because, you know, it shows that I trust them too, right? And then, and I do. Yeah.

And what's your go-to sales rep interview question to determine if they're gonna make it or not?

Oh, you know, geez, I wish I had, I wish I had a better answer for this. I, I, I, for me, when I'm, when I'm like looking at a, a, um, a potential candidate, I just like to learn the story of their history. Like, because that to me, that, that just tells every, like, like why, okay, what happened to this job and why did you leave? That usually the devil's in the details of why they left. And that's where Oh, and then I can find out, you know, a little bit more about them on the personal side, right? You know, I don't really have, you know, if, if you're, you know, if you're a tree, what kind of tree?

I didn't mean those types of questions.

Yeah, yeah. But I mean, ultimately, there's like, maybe, where do you see yourself here in 5 years? Like, you know, it's kind of, you know, they see if they, what kind of vision they have or ambition.

Because some leaders are looking for like the hard worker or the grit.

Yeah, but some—

that can be trick, right? That can be game.

It can totally be sold. I mean, you can, you can say anything, you know. To me, you can't, you can't really, uh, your history is gonna, you know, tell the better story. It's just, it's just going to kind of like, you know, because you can't say, yeah, I left this job because, you know, I didn't like the boss. 3 times in a row and then just say, oh, I love everyone I work with, you know. Right.

I'm easy to work with.

Yeah, well, maybe, right? So it's, it's definitely, um, um, it's a fun process. And, and I've— and listen, I, I've, I've been beat too. I mean, I've, I've had, you know, the, uh, the, the salesperson that I'm just like, oh, I gotta have this guy, I mean, he's gonna be great. And then Yeah. And then find out, you know, then it was, you know, it was kind of big talker Betty Crocker. At the end of the day, they just really didn't— they were just all smoke and mirrors. Right. And so—

What do you think about sales or how do you view sales as different than most people?

I think, you know, there is sometimes, especially in sales, you know, there's the impression that, you know, it's all just golf and cigars and bourbon. Ah, you know, celebrating.

Personality like a villain.

Yeah, right? It's just shaking hands and kissing babies. You know, they, they don't see the, you know, the, uh, oh, you know, I mean, how do I, how do I get this, this, this fella to get over his, his, his, you know, get out of his valley? Or, or, you know, or like, man, these are really aggressive numbers. I mean, ultimately the buck stops with me. You know, I can't, I can't say, you know, oh, Bill, where's your— you know, how come, you know, we didn't make, you know, well, oh, it's, it's Joe's fault or it's Ben's fault. No, I— it's me.

Yeah.

Ultimately, I did not deliver. Right. And those are, those are things that, you know, not everyone sees, especially if they're not in sales. You know, sometimes you get the, you know, sometimes you get the nice paycheck, but there's sometimes you don't. You know, it happens. And those, those aren't the ones you see on, on, on the sports highlights or the movies. No, those aren't the days you see, right? But, but a salesperson doesn't— can't show that. They can't go, oh man, I made no money. No, they got to keep the chin up. They got to keep going. And, you know, sometimes the impression that, oh, sales is a walk in the park. Yeah. When you're trying to figure out how you're gonna make the mortgage payment or the car payment next month, that ain't no walk in the park.

So, and what was the big surprise or thing that you didn't anticipate when you got into leadership that you found out?

Yeah, that's a good question too, because I, I, I, when I was offered a job as a sales manager, I'd never done sales management before. I had my own company. So you kind of, you know, you manage everything, right? It was never just focused on sales. And I remember saying in the interview, and it was like, I don't know, I've never done it before. And so there's a, man, a lot of learning. But I think because I, you know, there's ego and there's, oh, I'm great at this. Well, it can be easy to make everybody great at this. One of the biggest lessons was like— Just do what I say. Yeah, right. That was probably the biggest lesson. No, you can't do it the way I do. I've got to learn about you so I can, I can help you with your style. Like, I can, you know, there's best practices and there's all sorts of great things you can do, you know, and that we do do. But what works for Joe won't work for Sam. What works for me isn't going to work for Sally. You know, it's just not. So how do I, how do I get the same result with that personality or with that approach. Some people are wallflowers, some people are, you know, the flower and the bee, you know, that whole thing, right? So yeah, how do you do that? And it's a discovery process. And there's, you know, there's stuff that some works and some don't. It's trial and error, you know. And so, and I still learn that all every day, Brian. I mean, there's some days I'm just like, man, how do I—

Why don't you just do what I told you?

Get through this. Yeah. You know, if you just kind of did these things, You would be, you know, you know, in a different place. But then I'm like, but why isn't he? I'm not doing something right here. I've not either delivered the message or I'm not, I'm not providing the right, you know, sort of, you know, path to take. So I look more internally and I think that if anything, and there's, there's a girl I worked with in my last post and then she really taught me is just like, like looking inwards and, and yeah, so, and she was just, just really, you know, instrumental in me learning to just listen and, and, you know, and then like, it's, it's a different, it's a different place for them than it is for you, right? So.

And did the entrepreneurship stints help you become a better salesperson?

Well, 'cause I was a technician, you know, I, I, when I started that business and I had a big contract right out of the gate, so I didn't really have to sell, but it was funny, but I, but I knew I had to be a hustler. I knew I had to. So I'd get up in the morning, I'd put my little suit on, I'd go to like a network club, then I'd go and I'd put my tool belt on, I'd do an install, and then at night I'd put my little suit back on and go to bed, right?

Yeah.

Hustle. I look back on that now, I'm like, how did I do that? I was like, I like, The energy and whatever, but it was your own. It was like you were creating something. It was your baby. It didn't feel like work. You just, you know, it was exciting and new and fun. And all of a sudden, just one day I realized, oh, I'm, you know, because I'm in sales, I didn't even realize it, you know. And that, oh, I'm actually kind of good at sales. I never thought about that. But people trusted me because I was a technician first.

Right.

So, you know, I wasn't there I wasn't there to sell them, but I knew my stuff. And I would go and I was like, hmm, you know what we should do? And that's how I've always, to this day, sort of made my approach is very kind of from the ground up. And yeah, but I didn't know, at some point I realized, oh, I'm kind of really good at sales. But again, not wanting to call myself a salesperson for whatever reason. I know it sounds terrible, but—

Cool. I just see it, it, if people have more of an entrepreneurial mindset as a rep, they always tend to do better. Because—

Yeah, I think you're, I think you're right.

Personal ownership, right? You knew if you didn't go to those networking things, no matter how good you were, you wouldn't get as much business.

You're right. Yeah, you're, no, you're true. Because, you know, bottom line is if, if I'm not doing it, no one's doing it for me. I'm not gonna still get a check every 2 weeks, right? I'm not gonna get paid. I'm not gonna make rent. I'm not gonna— I remember I still had my first little office, my little whatever. It was like a closet in my apartment. And I was renting this apartment or whatever. And this desk, I got it at a garage sale and it literally like had 1 centimeter clearance on either side. And I had my accountant in there teaching me how to do my own books, right? And learning that part about business and then finance or whatever was really, really important. But yeah, 'cause ultimately I couldn't afford to have him do my books, I had to do it myself. But yeah, I had to really, at the end of the day, just embrace the fact that There's no safety net. And no matter— but if I worked, if I put something in, I would get something out. And I think that is still true with everything I do today. No matter what, whatever I put out or put into it, I'll generally get something back.

Great way to end it. Thanks for your time today, Bill. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

Oh yeah. Well, we're They wanna find us at, we're at Sunco Communication and Installation up here in Canada. We're a national telecom company. They can find me on LinkedIn, Bill Gammo. And I'm not great at the rest of the social media, but happy to connect with people on LinkedIn and say hello. Yeah, big fan of yours, Brian. I like what you do.

I saw a great post on LinkedIn about all these soft skills, and it was like 10 of them. Things like likability, listening, grit, all these characteristics that we always talk about successful people. And in sales, we need a little bit of all of them, don't we? And what we learn about these things is that you have to develop them. You have to focus on them, find the nuances, be conscious of them, and put an effort into becoming better at them. And that's really what Start the Conversation, Get the Meeting is about. Everyone thinks great prospecting is about magic words. Cold call openers, subject lines. Ah, they're nice. I get it. A great cold call opener can get someone's attention, create some curiosity, cut through the, is this a sales call? How'd you get my number? bullshit. But does it create interest? No, you got to do that. You got to build on that. And, you know, I, I worked the phones pretty heavy first couple years in my career, and it took a long time to become okay at it. But then I noticed the other people in the office weren't cold calling, but they were on the phone all the time. And I'd ask them at lunchtime, Look, if you call and you pitch, you're putting yourself into a binary situation, yes or no. And guess what the dominant answer is?

No.

So why would you do that? Because you don't know a better way. And this guy says, I look to just start talking. I warm up. I know certain things that'll just get people chatting. And I just ask. They start talking, I dig. And all of a sudden I've got a conversation. And I used to sit in the cubicle next to him and write down what he did. And he goes, it's not just what you do, it's— put a nice pause in there. And I learned more just cheating off of this guy than anyone taught me. You know, you buy the books and they're usually written by people who've never sold, or they worked for a company who sold sales training, which really isn't the same thing. So if you want to become great at prospecting, starting the conversation and getting the meeting teaches you how to have that charm. An old word, charm. Has this appeal, that's— it's an attraction. You want to talk to that person, not because they're interesting, but they're interested in you, your favorite topic. See, these are skills that have been overlooked because everyone's focused on the transaction. But to get the transaction in the complex sale, It's not the place to start. You gotta start where they are. You're a stranger. Start there and build up instead of trying to find that one in a million person who at that moment needs your stuff when they open your spam. If you want to do that, you gotta mail— email them a couple times a day, every day until they buy. Not a great strategy. Thanks for listening. Make sure you check out the other shows, the Sales Leadership Show, Sales Questions, Brutally Honest Answers. And all of these are put on my YouTube channel. So just search Brian Burns Sales. If you're interested in the courses, it's at b2brevenue.com. You can schedule a call with somebody on the staff, answer all your questions. But there are 2 videos on the website. There's an overview of how the course works, the learning management system, the video-based Uh, and then there's a second one on which course is right for me. Please watch both of those videos because they do answer 99% of the questions. But if you still have additional questions, there's a link on the website where you can schedule a call. Feel free to do so. We'll see you next time.