HOW TO GET INTO THE HARDEST OF ACCOUNTS AND CLOSE THE DEAL

The interviews, they just keep on getting better. I got another great guest for you today. How do I do this? Oh, it's a lot of work, I gotta tell you. Trying to find the very best salespeople out there that'll give us just a little bit of time to share their story, share their approach, share how they do things a little differently. And these are the distinctions that we all want to learn. We all want to take note of. We want to We want the shortcut. We want the smart cut, a smarter way of selling because we only have so much time. None of us has a 25-hour day. We all have 24. So how do we make the most of it and get the highest return for our hard work instead of just that rejection? That's what we're going to be talking about today is that smarter way of getting that conversation started with people. And you're probably wondering, oh, you know, isn't it just pounding the phones, Brian? Isn't it just a numbers game? It is if you don't know what you're doing. I get in this debate on LinkedIn all the time with those, you know, sales math monkeys. Oh, if you just do this number of calls, this number of emails, you're just bound to find something. Yeah, find something, not create it. Finding something in this big world of 7 billion people is pretty hard. There's a lot of things to do. People don't pick up the phone. They don't tell the truth. They don't reply to our emails. We have to do something smarter. So that's what we're going to be talking about today. Hey, and I really appreciate you listening, but could you do me a little favor? Just one. You don't have to write a review. That takes time. If you do, great. Thank you. Just tell a friend about the show. Somebody who wants to become better at sales, not the People in the B-player trap, the know-it-alls, the 2 ears and 1 mouth people, the people who really want to make more money, be better at B2B sales, take their career to the next level. That's who I want in the audience. Could you tell one of those folks? And maybe subscribe to the other shows and listen when you can. Sales Questions, Brutally Honest Answers, The Sales Leadership Show, and The B2B Revenue Leadership Show.

Here we go.

I'll sum it up at the end and give you all the action to take.

Hey, Frank, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Yeah.

So I grew up in Youngstown, Ohio, the Rust Belt, as everybody calls it. Went in the Air Force, as you could probably see some of the things behind me, but I was in the Air Force 6 years. Got out in 1983 and worked for a company you probably heard of, MCI. And from there, I was 15 years and moved into some operations to sales. So that's That's where I started my sales career, actually. And I moved to North Carolina and ultimately Chicago. And now I'm in Tennessee. But I've been with a few companies since then. My career has been, you know, very good career. I've been very thankful for where I've worked. Right now I'm with a company called Swimlane. We're in the cybersecurity space. And I oversee the Southeast for them as far as an individual contributor.

And why sales?

You know, it's funny you say that, because I'll never forget, I was in operations. And I remember this Jerry Hogan, I have to remember the name. He was over our operations team. And I had my tie on, you know, back in the days we all wore ties. And he looked at me, he said, Frank, you should go in sales one day. I said, really? He goes, yeah. And ultimately, one of my friends was a sales rep and I'd support him. He said, Frank, I'm moving to product. He says, you should take my role. I said, Bob, I don't sell. He says, you do it all the time. You just don't realize it. That's what started it, and I'm very thankful. That was probably in 1990.

And what do you think they meant by that?

I think it's really the idea of not just going out and pitching. I really go in and understand where people are going and how to align where they're going to what we can solve in those areas. I've never really sold a product, in my opinion, and it's really what I think, you know, I've always done.

And was that something that you learned or modeled after somebody, or was it just a natural You know, it's always been part of me.

I don't know how I could describe it because, you know, as a kid, I can say I never really did that at that time. But just something I think internalizing to know people, I think that's the first and foremost thing is sales. I don't care what you're selling. It's all about the people. And I think I've always been a people person. I think if you're a salesperson, you better be a people person.

Better be.

But I think it's all about connecting with people first and not talking about what I do.

And that, that's kind of counterintuitive, isn't it? A little.

Yeah, it can be when you're actually pushed to get a quota, pushed to make all the things happen for—

Get meetings, right? Progress the deal. Yeah.

At the end though, I've never changed who I am. I don't think you do that. And I think results prove themselves. I was like, I've taken over— I'm in the Southeast, I sold to the Midwest. What I did there, I'm doing here. I'm the same person I was there and doing the same things to go out and reach out to customers, people, connect with people. That's still the same. I don't care where you live.

And how long did it take before you were comfortable in sales?

Was it natural?

Or because there's a lot of rejection, there's a lot of pressure?

Yeah, I can tell you, I can remember my first rejection. And I was working on— I won't name the account, but it was in Florida, very large grocery chain. I'd worked on that For 2 years and they were with the incumbent and I did everything I could on that one. And I really thought it was going our way, but I'll never forget the customer called me. She goes, this is a tough decision. She goes, we've been with them for 7 years and they said that they could do this. We're going to give them another year and if not, we'll be back. And that was my first like, oh my gosh, I lost this. But you know what? The day after, and I even told her, I said, I will continue to follow up with you. And I did. And the year after, we obviously— they came our way. But it was the first initial, like, we're not going with you. I'd never had that before. So, but you just keep pressing on, I guess. That's what I learned from that experience.

And how did you internalize it?

Well, first, I went and talked to my boss. I said, guess what? They're not coming our way. And I had to internalize it with him to understand, you know, what I had done wrong. And there was nothing I had done wrong. So I think when you understand those things, what could I have done different? Really, in that situation, nothing. We all learn from mistakes. I always like to do a postmortem call, win or lose, because I don't want to repeat the same mistake again to lose. I'd like to repeat the same to win. And in that one there, it was just about the relationship that they had with that other incumbent for several years. I want to be on that side of the coin when those decisions come around too, though.

Well, I think that postmortem is critical because people say you either win or learn. But I tend to push back on that unless you really write down the lesson. Did you learn?

Life is a lesson. And I always say wins are wins when you look at them. Like, an example would be, hey, I got a first appointment. That's a win. Hey, we got a meeting with whoever. That's a win. We got an executive briefing. That's a win. The win everyone categorizes as when you win the deal. Yes, that is the win. But wins are taking them in stages. And I think that sometimes people forget what it takes to get there.

That's it. Because a lot of reps and a lot of managers kind of, they want them to grind and grind and grind. But if there's not little wins every day, there's no dopamine, there's just cortisol, right? There's just stress.

You know, you said it, it's stress. And then you feel like, what am I doing wrong? You just got an appointment today. What have you done wrong? Nothing. You know, again, you have to internalize what that means to each individual. I'm very I'm an impatient person to myself when I say that, because I like to do things. And, you know, I've been in this role for a month, but I'm already doing things to, like I said earlier, to build my market the way I need to. But I know what I need to do, and I want to get there. At the same time, I have to be realistic of what it takes to do all those things. And as I see them, like yesterday I had a great day, today I might have another great day. I know those are— and that's sometimes we forget to see those things to the ultimate goal. And I know the goal is going to— my goal is to build this region up to where I know it can go. But I also know it's going to take stages to get there. It doesn't happen in a quarter. It doesn't happen in 2 quarters. It takes time. And you get the wins in between though, too.

Yeah, because everyone's always looking for like the magic subject line or closing that'll get the deal instead of understanding the game you're playing.

Yeah, yeah. And you know what, in this, in this world today, or this era today, because I remember when I sold back when, and what it is today, it's much different than what I did then. I've had to refine some of the things I did then to what I do now. Same principle, who I am, but ideally, you have to change yourself to know what the market is going, things that people are saying, people, things that people are doing. And I think that's some of the challenges that some sales reps do. They don't really want to change the recipe. And you have to.

Well, the recipe's kind of going with what they feel, reacting to the scenario instead of setting the scenario.

Exactly.

Yeah, it's kind of guiding the client along the way.

Yeah, because you have to understand where they're going— where they're going, meaning— and then guide them where you can take them and then some. Sometimes we want to get, get it right in a way where we can start saying, I can do that. Great. What does that mean? Nothing. You know, you have to understand where they— and I actually, I think that's one of the principles I learned is understanding the person I'm speaking with. What have they said? Like, like, I deal with CISOs, I deal with CIOs, everybody does, you know, executives, and everybody's ultimate goal is to get to them. Well, so does everybody else.

You're not the only one.

Good idea, right?

Good.

But what is that CISO saying? And I like to do things like search out, they've spoken on a panel, they've done a podcast— podcast, how about that? But they've done things where they've sat and talked about what they're trying to do to align what they're doing to the business. And then aligning, I'll also listen to— I'll go to the investor site, listen to the business when they do the press release with their earnings to the street. Because the CEO, CFO are aligning their objectives, as well as the CISOs align their objectives. How do I align to those things? That takes a lot of time and prep. But that's what differentiates everybody when you look at it. And I think, and don't get me wrong, there are people that will do that. But that's what you have to do to align today than you did before yesterday when I say that.

Yeah.

And what were some of the epiphanies that you discovered along the way? Because going from like an MCI-type sale to what you're doing now, very different.

Very different. Then it was, you sold a product, it did good things, you know, it solved problems. But there was a cost, you know, and everybody looked at the cost and all the things how you could do. My goodness, can you imagine what you did then today with costs? Geez, oh man. But at the same time, I had to learn, now I'm having to align business more so than I did then. I did then, but it was not as much, you know, because really it was like, okay, I can get it for this over here, I can get it for this over here. Oh, these are the features and everything. I like this, I'll go with you guys. A little bit more than that, but that's the gist of it.

Yeah.

Today there is so much shift and transformation. There was so much shift in products, and there's a ton of them when you look at it. And there's a shift and everybody's got the message. So you got to understand that message better than you ever did before. Because the customer is doing their own research before they even talk to you, before you even open your mouth. So you better know what they're saying before you even go in there and start talking about things.

And is this your first time in security, or has security been something you've been focused on?

No, I did it before when I was at a company before this one, and different solutions there in security. When I say that, this is more different than what I'm doing now, but still in security. The messaging is a little bit different. But at the same time, it's the same concept. It's the same process. You know, you have to understand the things that align to the people. So I don't— I think that's the biggest thing I probably take out of what I do is understand. I do a lot of research, I gotta tell you, but I'm only working Fortune 1000.

Okay.

So when I look at a BDR, they're pounding the phones, they can't do the stuff I do. I mean, my gosh, they would never make their number, right? But there's some things they could do differently, maybe to align to that, right? But I think someone in my role, has to do this type of research, uh, and understanding all the— and I, I find so much good information though. Every day I find another nugget. It's, it's good information when I say that, and I'll share it with people because I think that's important too. I, I just think that we need more preparation in advance.

And when you say preparation, it's preparation about them, not about what you do.

Exactly. Yeah, my preparation to what they do Well aligned to them understanding what I can do to solve them for their problem.

And are you taking— sounds like a top-down approach.

Top-down meaning executive?

Executive? I'm not sure who uses the product. And security is so broad.

Oh, it is. It's— you said it. So I won't go into all the different layers, because you're right, it is. But at the end of the day, it really gets into top-down. I'll start with the CISO, because the CISO brings it down to his people. I'll look at those people, things that they're saying, LinkedIn activity, what are they posting? What are they saying? Things like that? What kind of jobs are they posting? What are those jobs doing? You know, did that person speak on a panel? What did they say? Do they have a white paper? What did it read? All those things that you're pulling out data to understand, okay, I know where they're going now where I can go to them and say something that I think I can solve a problem that they're outlining. Without that, you're just going in there blind to think, hey, I can do automation. Great.

We got that.

We got that. So does everybody else. What do you mean by that, right?

Yeah, or digital transformation or some other buzz sentence, right?

Yeah, exactly. So you got to know what that means before you even make the— I hate to say the word pitch because I don't like pitch. But you have— before you make your mess, you give your message to the customer because you have— first impressions are the key. And I always tell people, you know, Fortune 1000, say I have 140 different companies I'm going to go try to engage with. If I blow one, I'm down to 139. So I got to take my best foot forward every day and knowing what I'm going to say before I go out and say it. It doesn't mean I'm going to make a mistake or not make a mistake, rather. I, I, we all do, but I'll understand better the next time before I go to number 138.

Well, that's it because that's almost 1% of your market.

Exactly. You know, you can't do that too many times, can you?

No, about 138. Yeah. How long did it take before you took this approach versus the, the numbers game? You know, take your value prop or your insight and pitch it?

Probably about 2006, I can tell you that. Um, because what it was, I was starting— I was in software sales and I, I started to get in the software sales for the first time. Then it was like, okay, how many phone calls and how many of this and all that? And I started looking at that. And first of all, my personality is not that. I mean, I'll do it, but at the same time. So I started investigating what groups, what associations, what are— what is out there in my area. And I start engaging with people. One of the people actually put me in touch with you, uh, actually was, uh, Camp IT in Chicago, Dan Horowitz. Dan's company's been there for, oh my gosh, 30-something years probably. But anyway, with that said, I called, hey, can I have lunch with you? I'm trying to understand this market. It was understanding him not understanding, you know, the people that he's connected with. I really wanted to understand what do you do. And what I found was, there are other associations as Dan did and other groups that I got connected with, and I start learning what people were saying. And that helped me to translate my message better. And I started connecting with people, networking, and not just networking just to network, but building a relationship with people. Um, you know, Chicago is really good for those events, you know, Executives Club.

Highly dense.

I mean, I can go down the list, uh, but they still happen in Tennessee where I'm at too. That still follows there, is that do here is my point. And that's where I, I try to break the ground and understand the people, where, uh, who's in the market, what are they saying, who am I connected with and know those people. And then I can start extrapolating data, you know, doing the things I do.

And that was because it was smarter, more effective, and it fit your style.

Exactly. It fits my style. Everybody's different. My way of doing things is not going to follow somebody else who wants to maybe work with, I don't know, external partners or whatever. And that's great. I think I like to build the relationship on both sides, but at the same time, I do a little bit more due diligence upfront. That takes a lot of time. My nighttime activity is really doing what I'm talking about, not my daytime. I mean, I try to do that during the day as much as But I'm up daytime, I'm trying to do the other things I should be doing with it. So it's an ongoing weekly thing that I'm doing, preparing now. One of the accounts I'm looking at now, I'm going into more data. It'll probably be a week before I could actually engage with them is my point, because I'll have all the information where I know where I'm going before I even go there.

And a lot of people would look at this as personalization, but it's more than that. Yeah, it's, it's much more of you being viewed as part of their tribe, part of the— there's a security ecosystem instead of a sales guy trying to pitch his software.

A trusted advisor, you know, we've heard that a lot. And when they can understand that you're in there for their best interests, you're that trusted advisor. You're not just trying to sell them whatever. I've actually gone in companies where I say, you know, that's not really a good role for us to do there. And be upfront with them, because you just try to sell things, you're out, you know, one bad mistake, you're done. My reputation is everything. I mean, that's one thing I always say, the reputation you have carries you forward, integrity, when I say that, all those things that we know.

And certainly in security, where it's so broad and deep. And until there's a problem, they think they're comfortable, they think they got it covered.

And that's a challenge that you have to outline with them with what they really think they know, in a way, really not to put them like at their heels, like you're, you're saying, but it's how you say things. And I think you're right, though, you do have to understand, let them understand other things that could be compromised by not doing a different way. And what that could mean. I mean, we see things in the paper every day about just those things. So, but you have to understand how to say that, be a little bit empathetic in what you're trying to do, but at the same time, challenge people, which you're trying to explain to them.

And have you had any pushback from upper management because they're looking at KPIs and activity and pipeline?

And I, I could say I'm very thankful that no. I mean, I think you're— if you have results that prove where you've been, you know, it's obviously followed you, they're going to give you the chance to do what you do. Now, at some point, they're gonna say, hey, but I, you know, I've never seen that. Uh, I could say when I was— you mentioned the company before. You're on a monthly quota. My goodness, you better be hitting those numbers, right? It's a much different role. You don't get a couple months of that, and I don't care what you're doing right. And nowadays, you know, when you're doing large accounts, and you're trying to focus in on getting into large enterprises, you have to understand that takes time to do the things we're talking about, but not a year. I mean, you have other accounts you can foster through to get you beachheads, as I call, to get in there, grow and expand, and then ultimately you get the whales, we know. But those, you know, you could cycle in. And nobody's going to beat you down if you're stuck, if you're doing all the right things.

And what keeps you motivated between these gaps of all the work and getting an order?

I think it's back to the little wins that we talked about. I think it's really that if you don't see any results coming out of it, then you're starting to really look at yourself and doubt. But I don't really seek doubt. You know, it may be that I didn't get— oh gosh, he didn't want to take my phone call or didn't want to have that meeting or whatever. It doesn't mean that I did anything. It might be just the timing, right? And so you continue on and follow up. That timing might have now opened up, you know, maybe it's just cycle for budget cycle for timing on their side, who knows, right? And that's the other thing we got, you know, people really think, well, he didn't return my call, or didn't return my email, or whatever. Did you ever think that maybe he got up in the morning, maybe his wife and him had an argument, something personal in their life? Boss just said, hey, we got to cut 10%, or whatever it may be. Doesn't mean that they didn't respond to you because they didn't care. Or maybe they did. Maybe something you said just didn't make sense. But sometimes we want that instantaneous gratification. And that's, that's just not right.

Well, we assume since it's our top priority, it's at least an important priority for them.

Yeah, our priority is their priority. Totally agree with you, Ron.

They don't look at it that way.

No.

Oh, yeah, exactly right.

And what do you think differentiates you from most reps?

I think it's the preparation part that I mentioned earlier. I absolutely think that's, you know, when I tell people what I do, you know, some of the things like I'll listen to a YouTube where somebody's given an interview. And again, it may be a 10-minute interview, it might be a 30-minute interview, but I go through and I take down information. What are they saying? Listen to the investor side. Some people look at me, man, that's a lot of time and everything. I go, yeah, but it proves out to be a lot of value, which you're going to be able to understand before you even talk to people. I think not everybody does that. I'm not saying people don't, so take that the right way. But I don't think people do as much of that as they probably should. The events, the things that I talk about to go to, I think those are things that I just do. I believe in them. COVID actually impacted that without a doubt, starting to open up and do things. Virtualization has actually They're not the same, you know, you and I are doing a Zoom, but these virtual events, they still have some value to them. But I'm actually going to attend one like here in the next 2 weeks. And it's important that you meet people, engage with them for however many hours it is versus a 30-minute Zoom call, and get to understand them better. Well, that's it.

Anyone who's never sold face-to-face doesn't understand that, that, you know, meeting somebody for coffee, breakfast, lunch, dinner, whatever it is, that's where the real understanding happens.

It really does. And, you know, I remember one time I was at a CIO panel. And this is in Illinois. And it was 4 CIOs. I always, you know, you listen, he had a sales rep there. I'll never forget the sales rep asked the thing, well, how do I get a meeting with you? I'm not kidding now when I say this. And he goes, well, if you have something that makes sense, he says, I'll get back in touch with you. It was the follow-up question. I was like, you really said that? How do I know you're going to do that? Oh my gosh. Well, he went back on his heels. And he said, let me ask you something. And everyone, how many of you give back to the community? How many of you are out there helping organizations? And he named one. And, you know, that really caught me. And this is back in probably 2007 or whatever. But it's still, it's still the thing I believe today. When we sometimes look at the person in the organization, we sometimes think the role of CIO or VP, whatever it may be, We have to understand them as people. Where do they believe in? What are the things that they believe as far as the local community? And I believe in local community when I say that, not just because of getting in front of people. But when he said that, I went up to him afterwards, and he was the CIO of the Year in 2004. And I had done my research on that. I said, but I'll be honest with you, I'd never heard of this organization. I started explaining things. He says, I'll tell you what, let's have coffee. And we did. And we started explaining it. He put me in touch with that organization. We had coffee, and I've been part of that for 16 years. For the same reason, it gives back to the community is the reason. But it's those things that are important to the people you're talking to. And sometimes we don't understand those parts, we only understand the business part, if you know, and there's another side of this.

Also, that's how probably most sales reps think. How could I get a meeting with you so you can listen to what I can do for you?

Yeah.

And it's like, well, if they were interested, they'd call you, right? It's up to our job to get them interested and have— bring something to them that they want.

Yeah.

And start where they are. He's not interested.

He's not interested. Exactly. And I also think that if you start connecting with people, understand the business, understanding what they're What's involved in the community, what they can possibly—

They care about.

I think it all comes full circle. And it doesn't mean they're going to buy from you. I think that's the other thing. I think sometimes, okay, I'm doing all these great things, how come they're not buying? They're not ready. You know, there could be a lot of reasons why. Maybe, hey, they bought a big contract with somebody and there's a lot of political reasons why they did that. There's a lot of things. You can't accept that everything you do is always going to work. But doesn't mean you don't do the things to get you there though too.

And how do you qualify somebody? Because you get 140 accounts, they're not all equal. How do you prioritize them? Because you're making a huge personal investment in learning about them.

I think what I have to do is I'll get back 140 of them. I go in and understand each of them, what I can find out as far as Are they using a competitor? What kind of competitor? You know, the things that they're doing now as a company, what things that they're trying to solve, what things, you know, what are the people in that organization, they are totally with one side, you know, the other competitor, and that's probably gonna be one of the lower priorities as opposed to another. You got to get all the groundwork done to understand that. And by the way, it's not perfect science, you go in there still, you still try to uncover.

Yeah.

You might find out through the job postings I mentioned, you might say, hey, they're finding they're using so-and-so and so-and-so. What are they saying on their LinkedIn? What are they saying to maybe the local community when I say technology community? I get all that information and I can decipher where I'm going, probably if they're going to be a good target for us now or maybe later. And maybe through my partners, because that's the other thing. We work with partners as most companies do. And if you have a good partner community, they can guide you in some of that knowledge too. And those are— that's just part of the reasons why I do all the research, because that helps me to understand what I'm going to go into before I go into the first meeting.

And what motivates you? Because it sounds like you're putting a lot of hours in.

I like to win. And I mean, not just from the paycheck. Yes, it is about the paycheck. I think my motivation is just to win. I, you know, I was given a challenge with, uh, my boss now on a particular account. I, I like that challenge, by the way. But it's motivating me to understand, you know, how I can get there. Otherwise, if it's just for the paycheck, I just like to win and also do the best I can, whatever I'm doing. You know, I'm a little bit— someone used the term weathered. I'm a little bit weathered.

I think that is a compliment.

It is a compliment. I like it. But at the same time, I've been doing this a while. And so my goals in my life for now are different than my goals in life before. And so I just like to have fun at what I'm doing, do the things that I'm doing, be engaged with people, and just solve things. If I win, that makes me happy. You know, and I solved the problem when I did that, by the way, continuing that relationship. Because obviously I like to not just go in there and walk away. It's all those things that got you there that you keep continuing. And by the way, people move on, different companies. I've moved on. Executives move on. Those relationships never stop. So you continue that.

And when you lose, what have you learned?

I think you've learned what— back again to that story that happened in Florida.

Why?

You know, why did you lose? And then when you find out those things that you wouldn't make, you know, why you lost, if it was back to some of the things that we couldn't solve, you learn from that. Okay, so what can we do then now next time if we go into that, learn from that, either internally when I say that, if I didn't do something, What could we have done differently? Or maybe the way we demoed something or showed something or, you know, whatever it may be, learn from those mistakes, and not to repeat them either. Because again, I don't think everything's a perfect world when you're going to go in there and solve, you know, you're going to go in that meeting, you go in there, you get the meeting, you go in there and they say, yeah, this makes sense. You go in there and you do a proof of value, proof of concept. You go in there and you demonstrate they have the budget, they're all ready to go with you. And they say, I don't think we're going to do it right now. You know why, and you learn from that.

Is that what you lose, lose or not close on most of the time, especially in technology space? It's usually a priority. They can afford it. You can tell that before you call them.

Yes. First of all, is qualifying them. That's first and foremost, because if you're going down a road and you're going to involve their resources, but really our resources, and they only have a budget for this, why would you do it? You know, I mean, if they're going to find budget, that's one thing. But I think that's That's the very first thing you want to do is establish that we have a connection, that we can solve a problem. And if we solve that problem, is there a budget to move forward in this process? If not, you know, when will there be? Obviously, because they'll see the value right away through what we've talked about. And they'll say, okay, this makes sense. Yes, we'll find budget or not. But you also need to make sure your resources are used in the right way. Because my people, my people in my company, when I say that, and I'm sure the company when I say I'm working with, They're all very important. And we just don't want to do proof of concepts just to do, hey, that looks great.

Busy.

Yeah. It doesn't solve things.

Would you characterize your ability to read a deal?

Yeah. You read the deal by what they say. And then obviously the questions you bring out from what you're asking them. Again, you won't say, well, is there a budget? You know, and how you ask those questions, you know, you got to make sure you're right from the beginning. That's not what you do it. But I think you have to understand and validate the problem you're solving. And as you go through it, this would solve this from what you said before. And the return on this could bring this, you know, because you're trying to, you know, the great resignation, we talk about people, you know, talent, all the things that we're talking about. We solve that problem. We bring all the things that we know we can help them with. Now they see that. It's like, okay, well, they validated we can solve it. Now, is this something that if once we could prove the value internally, Is there a budget for this? Do you think that we can move forward with? And if they say not at this time, well, when, when would there be? You know, I think those are, those are honest questions. I think everybody would appreciate that. Nobody just wants to do busywork, right?

Yes, especially when you're on commission.

Well, I'm on commission, but I think that too, if you're going to take a SOC team or a security team and take their resources to work with you, Just to validate that, yeah, this looked good, and then not move forward? Why would you do that? I don't think they would.

Great. Hey, Frank, I appreciate your time today. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

Well, I would love for you to connect me on LinkedIn. I'm absolutely— that I connect with people all the time. It makes sense. And that would be the best place.

Now, how many of you— now be honest, you don't have to tell me. You don't have to let me know by email or anything. Are the person that would have been in that audience that Frank was talking about that would have said to the CIO, how do I get a meeting with you? How many of you think that that's selling? Putting somebody on the spot, obligating them to hear your pitch.

Ugh.

That's what everybody wants to hear is a big commercial. And you got to understand, that's how prospects view Us salespeople talking about ourselves, talking about our product, thinking that, oh, you must be so stupid not to want it. But we don't build the need. We don't build the know, like, and trust yet. Everyone kind of admits that we do buy from people we know, like, and trust. We believe people we know, like, and trust. But can you believe somebody that you don't know or like or trust? Probably not. We probably think that that person is a stranger. And what's even worse on the social hierarchy other than stranger? Salesperson, unfortunately. We got a bad rap because we— some of us deserve it. Because marketing and sales is always pushing out message, message, message. Value proposition, value proposition. Elevator pitch, insights. Oh, eureka! And guess what? Unless the other person cares, is aware of the problem, shows any curiosity about solving it, they don't care. Do you care when the commercial comes on the TV? Well, that's not my commercial. I care about my commercial. Of course you do and your mommy does. No one else. That's the problem. The whole problem with prospecting is we forgot empathy. We forgot understanding where the other person is and how do we build them up to where we want them to be. We're all looking for the magic bullet, the 100% solution. And until we find it, we're going to keep looking. Well, I did that too. And I gave up after about 5 years because there is No silver bullet with people. There isn't with parenting. There isn't with relationships. There isn't with friendships. Yeah, there's ingredients. There's consistency. There's better ways of doing it. But is there a surefire way? 100%? No, not with people.

No.

Look at any situation, and this is the laws of nature, in that People are tribal. They're separated. And what we have to do is become part of their tribe, not demand that they become part of our tribe. All communication is somebody bridging from one person to the other. In a podcast like this, I'm trying to bridge to my audience, the people that I do want to talk to, but I have no control over who does listen to this. I want B2B salespeople who want to grow and want to become better, but who knows who listens to this? I have no control over that. I only have control over what I say here. Now, if you really want to get great at starting conversations and getting meetings, guess what you should do? Sign up for the course. Why would you not? You're cheap. You're a know-it-all, and you think that what you're doing is the best it can be. It can't. It just can't. Sorry. Even me, who teaches the course and helps people with it all day, every day, I can get better. I want to become better. I am looking to talk with people better than me so I can make me better and my People better, my audience better at this, starting conversations, getting meetings. I'll tell you the way not to do it is to raise your hand and ask them, how do I get a meeting with you? You know what that CIO is really thinking? What a selfish jerk to put me on the spot here, add no value to me, and be 100% focused on you. That's what they're thinking. That's what I would be thinking. That's what you would be thinking when people ask you for a meeting. Now, do you even want to take the meeting if there's no interest? Why would you? Maybe you're covered. Who knows? We have to start with conversations. Then we get to meetings. There is no silver bullet in sales. There's lots of great ingredients though. Know, like, and trust is one of them. And how do you do it at a rate that you don't scare people off? You start the conversation. You get the meeting. Now that you look at all that pipeline, how much of it is closing? Keep track of the proposals you send out, the quotes. See how many of those close. Or whatever you count as your win rate. The number of people that you're talking to. Whatever it is. Now, now think about if you're able to close more of them. At a larger number in a more predictable, controlled manner so that you focused that 24 hours that you get every day on the things that are most likely to close. I talk a lot about judgment, but a lot of people don't know what judgment is because everyone thinks that everything's equal. Judgment is prioritization. Judgment is determining or speculating or evaluating what to work on. I did a video on the difference between an investor and a gambler. Now, an investor analyzes opportunities, ranks them, aligns them with their expertise, and invests their time and their money on the things that they believe are most likely To happen. Now, a gambler gets a feeling, a kinesthetic thing, something that tickles them, something that they feel good about. Is there any math behind it? Is there any experience behind it? Maybe, but not much. There's a big difference between a gambler and an investor. A gambler, you know, picks the meme stocks, reads the news. Ah, you know, it's moving. So they're hoping they're going to pick the direction it moves in. Selling is an investment approach. Now, if you can take the gambler approach, the gambler approach is the grinder. The grinder is the gambler. They just randomly dial the phone. They go A to Z in the CRM and they hope to find interest. The world has moved from finding interest to creating it. And this is why marketing is failing so badly in B2B is because everyone's trying to find interest and nobody is like, I don't know what that is. Never mind, do I have the problem it solves? Never mind if I'm curious about it. They're not thinking that way. They're thinking, hey, I'm fine, I'm cool, I'm shaking, everything's cool, why would I look elsewhere? We have to have that investment mindset, that detective mindset. It is so critically different than the grinder and the census taker and the gambler because The gambler feels lucky, and maybe you feel lucky, but the math is still the math. The math on certain things applies. Use that math of, well, who is most likely to have the problem I solve in the order that they are most likely want to solve it with a company, product, and a rep like me. And then, where are they? How do I connect with them? How do I look, feel, and sound like them? This is a transformational mindset and change that you can take in your career. Because if you're able to start conversations with the strangers that you judge most worthy of your time and energy instead of the ones That come in, the ones that come in are good if they're qualified, if they're interested, if they want more than the Apple Watch from the webinar, or do they just want the trinket that you used as a bait and switch to get them to attend? I get it all the time. Oh, we'll pay you this much for your opinion, your ideas, your feedback. And it's like, well, my time is worth more than that. So no, no thank you. And I know what you're really trying to get at. You're really trying to Have me suffer through your pitch and have me try and bridge it into my life instead of you bridging it into my life. In B2B, it's up to us. We are the sole responsible people to make it happen. And the pitch and the sequence of emails is dying very quick. So how are we going to do this? Go to b2brevenue.com right now. Sign up for Winning the Complex Sale. Because this year is your year. This time is your time. The biggest question I get when people talk— ask about the Quest, the courses, is when's the best time to start? 10 years ago. The second best time is today. Because today will come and go. This year will come and go. And will you have that skill a year from now? If you take the course, you will. If you don't, you won't. And you'll be sitting there pounding the phones trying to find interest, the needle in the haystack, instead of creating it. The investor, the detective, and that's the person who's going to make it to President's Club. It's not going to be the people with 5 years experience that you're going to learn from. It's going to be the people with good 20, 30 years of experience. And you may say, oh, things have changed since then. And they have. But people, not so much. Not really. The technology, right? Because we used to go building to building. Then we picked up the phone and went phone to phone. Then we go to email to email. Now we're on the internet. And we have this 365-day-a-year, 7-by-24 trade show that's going on. that a lot of us aren't participating in. And I'm not talking about just one site, but the world's online now. Are you, are you making the most of it? It's up to you. b2brevenue.com. Tell a friend about the show. All the videos are in the show notes right below this. Just swipe up and hit the click, and you can watch the video on the YouTube channel, on my LinkedIn profile, and on the website. We'll see you next time.

I was just going to give a bit of a testimonial, if that's all right, just to kick it off. As long as it's positive. No, it is positive. It was a— yeah, um, just because I started the Course, I think, in June of last year, 2021. I got a few more months left of Access, which is good, um, but I feel like it's been a transformative experience in my own personal and professional life. I was able to go from a period of, um, low sales slump in the middle of last year, in the summer and early fall, and then really was able to then come back and exceed my target by the end of the, by the end of the 4th quarter. And so the only other thing I would say is that it's also really differentiated me amongst people on the sales team in terms of focus and clarity of what's important. And now I feel really good about what I'm doing. In terms of the approach of reaching out to customers and having those conversations and being focused, as opposed to just doing a lot of the other busy work on the side, like organizing resources and doing business analytics and all this other stuff. And so it's really been a noticeable difference with our executive team at my company. And so I just want to thank you for the content and for these opportunities. And so I hope that helps. If there's anybody new, it It's— I'm a work in progress, but it's getting better.

Good.

Yeah.

And you're selling pretty hard stuff.