HOW TO GET TO THE REAL REASON COMPANIES BUY IN B2B SALES AND SELLING

Today, everybody thinks sales is just a bunch of motions and plays. Have that disco call. How do you run a disco call? How do you run a demo? What we're trying to do is break sales down into these chewable chunks, which is really— it's actually good. The problem sometimes is if you only do that, You get stuck in the rep trap, the sales rep trap. When you act like a salesperson, you get treated like a salesperson. A lot of people don't know what that means.

Yep.

How many salespeople do you want to talk to? Not many. But how many people do you want to talk to? How many friends? How many smart people in your industry would you like to have a conversation with? Probably a lot to learn, to understand how other people do things. What are the things that you're missing, that you're overlooking, that other people have solved? That's interesting, isn't it? That's probably why we go online, why we listen to podcasts, why you're listening to this. Maybe you want to hear how other salespeople are successful. I try and have the very best salespeople in the world. On the show. And today I've got one. And they— all they want to do is share. They want to express their journey, how they learned how to become great at sales. And universally, it has not been motions and plays. They're a good place to start. They're under the assumption that every sales call is pretty much identical. That there is already interest established, there's a need already existing, there's awareness of the problem and the desire to solve it. But do you run into that that often? You run into ingredients of it, morsels, something to work with. But can you build it into curiosity and interest and urgency? That's what real selling is. It's not activity. It's not being busy. That's just a distraction. That's just to keep everybody feeling like they're being effective instead of learning how to be effective. And this is what we're going to talk about today. How do you get the client focused on the implications, the issues, The total understanding of what they're trying to fix instead of what the product does. See, we focus on what the product does because we know that. We're comfortable with that. We're good at it. We want to talk. But the client, if you do that, you want Walk right into the commodity trap. The commodity trap and the sales rep trap. We live there. We can't go there because when we go there, we get treated like a salesperson and we get treated like a transaction. Most of the stuff we're selling in B2B has a transformative element. It's changing their workflow. It's changing How successful they can be. Hopefully, it's becoming more productive. And it does a lot of things for our champions that they may not realize yet. We've got to get them to focus on it, not through a pitch or a demo, but through a magical conversation. We're going to get into it in this episode. How do you become good at that magical conversation? You got to have some confidence. And how do you get confidence? You do it over and over again. Well, that could take years. What if there was a smarter way, an easier way, a more effective way? That's what Brevity Pitch is all about. With Brevity Pitch, what you're able to do is have those conversations with no risk, no downside. You can be vulnerable. And no one cares. No one judges you. No one laughs at you. Nobody frowns at you. And you get to do it over again, like a video game, like every other performance practice and every other performance profession. Today, everybody's doing it with live clients.

Very expensive.

Really expensive. Why? Because we think we get multiple tries with them, but we don't. We have to take our shot when we have it. And if we mess it up, you think you can just call them back in 2 weeks. You can, but they— will they pick up? Will they talk to you? What we have to do as salespeople is develop our skills In a safe, productive, realistic environment. And it gives you constructive, positive feedback on alternative ways to do it. Because the topic that we're talking about today is advanced. Very few people can do it and do it well. Yet everyone thinks they're already doing it. Your paycheck will tell you how well you're doing it. Grab your manager, go check out brevitypitch.com. It's the first sales technology I've seen that increases revenue instead of decreasing it. And instead of analyzing the call afterwards, which is a reasonable use of time, why not practice and prepare for the call so it goes well, so that that call review is a little bit more pleasant? The shouldas, wouldas, couldas. Sales is a prevention profession, not repair. Here we go.

Hey, Aaron, thanks for joining us today.

As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Sure. Yeah, thanks for having me, Brian. So, um, about 15 years ago, I received my MBA in marketing. It was something that I kind of fought for a long time because I, I was always like a very creative person from college up until that point. And I had kind of very unfulfilling jobs for many years in like sales capacity and marketing. And I finally got to a point where I was like, okay, maybe I'm interested in business. Let's take this to the next level. So I got my MBA and then my first job after my MBA, this is about 2009. I was working at this Very small software company for business intelligence. And because we were so small and there wasn't really structure around the sales team, we were really like the first couple of salespeople there. I was like a BDR, I was an AE, I was a solutions consultant, I was a marketing manager, basically had my hands into all these things and was really just grinding it out and grinding and grinding. And I started really enjoying software. And really just being able to put myself out there in front of customers in a very different way than, than what I was used to. And it just became really enjoyable and fun. And then after about 3 years of being there, it almost kind of left a little bit of a bad taste in my mouth because of, you know, some of the challenges of just being a small company that was really unable to grow as fast as I would have liked or kind of you know, wanted to do something a little bit different. So I went and was doing other types of selling for like consumer products and manufacturing merchandise. And that was a lot of fun. And eventually a little bit after that, all roads lead back to software sales, I guess, at least in my view, right? So I ended up just randomly being connected to somebody that works for a software company and I'm like, you know what, this is actually something that I really want to get back into doing. And I've been doing that for the last 8 years and I love it. And it's just such a really cool experience and just a, I think it's just a great part of sales in general, like the software world because it's just so vast and growing.

And you've had a pretty tremendous track record.

I've been very fortunate. I've been very fortunate. I mean, it didn't start that way and I'm sure this is true for anyone.

It rarely does.

Well, I mean, I think, you know, day one going into a new company, right? I think, yeah, it really doesn't matter what you've done in the past, who you are, what your education is. It's like, can this person, is this person gonna be someone that's gonna bring results? Right. And nobody really knows. And that's like kind of the million-dollar question. It's like, what's the makeup of somebody who's successful? But, you know, I spent the first year and a half just grinding, grinding, grinding. And, um, you know, at some point it just like clicked. And, you know, I've, I've been very fortunate and I feel like I've really grown as a person and as a salesperson, um, over the last few years, kind of just organically. And it's just really been fun.

What caused the clicking? Was it just osmosis or was it—

Yeah, I mean, I think, I think to, I think bringing in a business development focus to any sales role and not expecting somebody's gonna go out and hunt for you is extremely beneficial. And I kind of picked that up in that first software sales job that I had. You know, I kind of cut my teeth doing that and I brought that mentality into this role. So being able to just grind it out for a long period of time is not necessarily something that a lot of people would be willing to do because it takes a toll mentally, you know, rejection after rejection.

I've heard.

I mean, that's the thing that's crazy about salespeople. It's like, I mean, you just like— I kind of laugh at this to myself. It's like you have to be kind of psychotic and crazy in a way to be able to go and swim against the stream like that.

But every day.

Yeah. And I, I basically just like checked my ego at the door and I was like, you know what, I'm not doing very well right now, but I'm going to keep grinding and grinding and grinding. And I have to, I I have to just keep at it. And even when it started clicking a little bit, it wasn't like 0 to 100, right? But I think, I think it's, it's not about like learning the product because this is like a thing for me. It's like I didn't, I kind of just knew like, who cares about what the product does? Like, I'm not gonna spend my time trying to figure out what the product does or what, what's involved with the function and the industry and all these little nuances. Like, there's gotta be more of a focus going deeper into like, How am I going to get these people to like see a problem that they might not know that they have and get them to see something that they, they, they haven't really looked at before, right? And so I take myself out of that equation, right? And then I just kind of follow that process and kept just trying to learn, learn, learn, learn, learn. And then the, the mental, like, um, the, the mental part of like competing kind of just took over at some point where I just wanted to be successful so bad and I was really willing to do anything. And Once I started tasting a little bit of that success, it just kind of snowballed and snowballed and snowballed. And just to be able to earn that success, you know, it's like I'm at a level now where I think I know how to repeat that. And then you, and then you learn more and then like, okay, I know how to repeat this level and this level and this level. And then it got to a point where I'm like doing pretty well. And, and then it kind of changes you as a person. And it's like, I'm a completely different person. Like, not even just like a salesperson, but just like a human being. just in terms of success. And I would imagine that's true not just for sales, but for anything. Like when you put that much focus and effort and you're fortunate, if you start doing well in something, I think you just try to be humble about it.

But plus you're not selling to easy people either, are you?

No, it's never easy. And that's the funny thing. I think about this, like when I was working at a software company selling into like sales and marketing, like salespeople are like the most neurotic, people in general, right? I'm making these bold statements, but we're just incredible buyers. Like, I just think salespeople, like, we're just like impulsively, I'll buy this. Yeah, I'll buy this. So I like, early on when I was doing that, I was selling to like VP of sales and selling the market intelligence. And it, you know, was fortunate the product wasn't a significant investment for them. There was an entry point. And yeah, I mean, it was like, it was a little bit easier. And then when you sell to different functions like what I'm selling right now, you know, because of the people that you're selling to also are— they're, they're not used to like getting nice things in a way, right? They deserve those things, but you have to really show them that there's a better way to do things and that they deserve it and that their lives are gonna be made better because of it.

And they're not the social butterflies of the business world, are they?

Right, right. The unsung heroes though, right?

Well, I mean, when you sell to sales and marketing, I mean, they communicate.

Right.

You're more on the finance side, right? Is that right?

Correct. Yes. Right.

They're a little closed. They're just, if you go to a party, they're not the ones with the light lampshade on their head, right?

Right, right. I mean, it's definitely possible for that personality type to show up.

Yeah.

Right. Although I've been really impressed with the people that I've met over the last few years because there are people that are extremely articulate and outgoing. And you can look at these certain types of people with those traits. You can kind of recognize those traits in maybe certain types of successful salespeople. But when you recognize them in other parts of the business, It's like, well, that person is somebody that could be on a CFO track or that person could be like a CEO one day, but have that strong finance background. And that's what's really interesting about this position too, is because you meet so many unique types of people, unique types of people.

So, and that's the personality or the person that you want to be talking to, right? Because they're climbing.

Exactly. And they, and that's it. It's like, For any type of software sales, I would imagine you have to find your champion, right? And that's a person who you can coach into seeing a vision. But I think, like you're saying, if you find those people, and it's not about just like being smart or not being smart, it's about somebody who is maybe looking at this more strategically versus tactical. And then they see that vision, right? It's bigger than them. It's bigger than just themselves. And their own needs. Like what, it's not just what's good for me, it's what's good for everybody, what's good for the business, what's gonna help everybody, right? And those people can recognize the need for change.

Because somebody has to stand up, right? And run the gauntlet of getting your product into their company. It's not just the money, it's the change.

Right. Right.

And they're already doing it a certain way, right?

Exactly. Right. Yeah, we've been doing this for 25 years. It's like, why, why change? And why change now?

You're not gonna do it because it's, you know, 10% cheaper or 20% faster or busy, better. It's gotta be a lot.

Right. It's gotta be a lot. And it has to have meaningful impact.

And during that first year, what did you change about your approach that kind of helped you connect with them?

So when I started going through like sales processes for the first year, very much process-oriented in terms of like, Here's your first call. Okay, then you do the demonstration and then we're gonna do a pricing call and then we're gonna, you know, close the deal or, you know, have, have this type of call, right? It's like A through Z. And then I'm having not very much experience. You speak with somebody and it's on that first call and it's like, well, tell me about your challenges, right? And they're saying like all of these things. But when, when I look back on what they were saying, those, those things were very superficial, very tactical, right? And The weaknesses in me at the time were really just kind of the way I look at this is like superficial selling where I was just kind of gliding from step to step and I wasn't creating any depth in the sales cycle. I wasn't tapping into the reasons behind it, right? And then you go through all these steps and you're like, oh my God, this is going great. We just did the demo and now they want to do the pricing call and then you're blindsided nonstop, right? By Left and right, it's like oh sorry that we're not able to do this because of XYZ. And you're like oh I didn't see that coming right because you know you're just right you just have that experience kind of made up. Yeah it's it's made up but when I look at it now I'm I think one of the things that I think is really exciting is like I was afraid to talk about the things that I was afraid to talk about bad things. I was afraid to talk about failure, and I was afraid to address real concerns that people might have. And maybe that was subconscious, but now it's like you want to find the reasons why this is not going to work, or why they don't think that what you're offering is the best fit for them, and you want to find it out immediately. And I didn't do that because I was kind of just gliding along, not realizing that There wasn't really compelling reasons why they would do it and it wasn't being brought to the surface because there wasn't enough depth in the sales cycle.

And how did you get to those compelling reasons? Was it reading the situation? Was it questions? Was it rapport building?

I think, yeah, I think it's all of that. I mean, I think what I started realizing, I mean, I always kind of knew it's not about me. I'm just, You know, I'm just here as a facilitator. I'm just essentially like a project manager. I bring in all these people who are extremely knowledgeable and intelligent and who can really help build the value, right? But I kind of believe in this thing where it's like push versus pull. And I think a lot of mistakes that I may have made early on and maybe other salespeople make is you're, you think like sales is a certain type of thing. and you're just going through motions, but you're constantly pushing. Like salespeople can talk, we can talk all day long, right? We're just pushing, pushing, pushing. My product is great. Let me tell you about these things. If I talk a lot and I sound articulate, I could talk you into buying anything, right? And then at some point I started realizing I need to be able to pull. I need to start pulling the relevant information out of these people, pulling the emotional psychological elements of the deal of the human being that I'm working with and just start, stop talking so much, right? And, and realize that you could be talking for 5 minutes on a 30-minute call and have an incredibly incredible, incredible more impact than talking for 25 minutes on a 30-minute call. Right? So it's when you sit back and you like once I started doing that, I started realizing that it was so much easier to like focus in on what was really going on, starting to be able to connect the dots and being much more of an observer. And then then it was like let's put this together and okay now I'm going to ask this question. Okay now I'm going to bring this out and then really then I was able to start like looking at it from like chess versus checkers. Like are you We're not just going from, you know, intro to demo to pricing. Now we're playing a very different type of game where I'm able to look 2 steps ahead or 3 steps ahead, and then knowing what that's gonna be in 3 steps, I can ask questions right now or talk about certain things that would, I think, are gonna happen. So I'm not gonna waste that time, but also I'm trying to mitigate the risk that this is gonna happen because I think it could happen. So I'm gonna like proactively be able to navigate through that.

Did you find a pattern of what was the real problem that you solved for the individual?

Are you talking about just in terms of like what the product can offer?

Well, you know, I'm guessing about your sale. I've never sold to finance. I'm purely guessing as an observer. That in the first scenario you shared what everybody does, motions and plays, but then they don't buy, right? Because there's no, you said compelling reason or a huge personal win for somebody there, right?

Yep.

What was it that you pulled out that created the juice? Oh yeah.

I mean, I see what you mean. So I apologize. So I think the juice is coming up with not like a return on your investment, like, oh, let's make sure that they see the return on investment. But it's like, oh, hey, we need visibility. It's like, oh my God, they need visibility. We can offer that. They can get visibility, right? So it's like, or we need to be able to do XYZ faster. Oh, they want to do it faster, right? I mean, and maybe for seasoned salespeople, these are the things that are very obvious. you know, once you start getting good at what you're doing. But at the time when I was starting off early on, it's like I wasn't finding the why continuously and saying, okay, well, why is that important? And then, okay, then, but why is that important? Why do you need to do this? And then, oh, because of, we need to do it because of this. Well, why do you need to do that? And then, well, what does your CFO care about? oh, she wants this. Oh, you know, and then, you know, early on, oh, she wants it, right? She's on board. It's like, well, no, why does she want it? You know, what does that mean for her? Oh, because she wants it because of this. Well, why does she want it because of that? And I'm, you know, this is a very like simplistic way of saying all this, you know, this kind of childish, like, you know, back and forth, right?

Curiosity.

But that's what I think ultimately led me to success is like just as I was mentioning, like just being able to dig deep and like once they started talking and bringing things to the surface, it's like we now we have like all these, it's like becomes a much bigger thing to work with. It's like, yeah, here's now, here's your canvas. Okay, now how are we gonna mold this down a little bit and create that business case and those compelling reasons? And then, you know, if the magic is right, if it's a certain person that doesn't necessarily have the vision or like a great champion, who can articulate that internally, you're getting them to see things that they wouldn't have already seen. And then now you can take it and make it a very clear business proposition or value proposition onto, okay, these are the things that you told me and here's the detailed reasons why. And then now let's look at the functionality and the partnership and this is what it's really gonna allow you to do.

And how big were these deals? Are they 5 figures, 6 figures bigger?

Yeah. I mean, I think it ranges like I'm, I serve small and mid-sized customers. So we're not talking about very long, very high ticket, you know, ACVs. I'm in the volume business and I have a short attention span. So I think it works well, right? It's like, you know, there's salespeople and I just, I respect this so much. But, you know, you have like very large enterprise and strategic that you could spend years working with people and very large engagements. And I just think that's incredible. And I just, you know, I don't know if that's something that would, I would ever pursue. It's like a very different type of selling, you know, fundamentally, I think it's very similar, right? But yeah.

Because what you talked about seemed like it was Very thorough, but when you go thorough, it's usually time-consuming.

Right? And that's well, that's the trick. It's like, do it fast. How do I how do I make it thorough? But like get them to make a decision quickly, right? We just want we want a decision, a yes or no decision as quickly as possible, right? But did I miss anything? Well. That's, well, how do I know I'm not going to miss anything, but do it very quickly, right? And that's, it's like a delicate art and science, like it's a delicate dance. And you just, you have to try to create a process where you can efficiently go through it very quickly, but create a lot of depth.

Can you give us a sense of how long average is it? 90 days? 120?

Yeah, I mean, I think 90 days That's pretty fast. Could be pretty typical. You know, it could be longer. The pain of selling too, as everybody knows, is like, how do you measure a real sales cycle if it goes beyond, you know, 6 months and there's like starting and stopping, right? It's like, how long is it really? So from an engagement perspective, yeah, I think 3 to 6 months is pretty typical.

And Did they become competitive? Would they look at you and say, yeah, this is great. Let's look at everybody.

Yeah. And that's the thing that I made some mistakes in the past. And, you know, one of the things that I think is really interesting from, at least from my perspective, the way that I operated was any type of sales, you could have 3 competitors, 4 competitors in the mix and the client prospective client could come up with requirements list on paper in Excel, right? And it's 30 different things. And the fool in me, like the inexperience, there's been a couple of times in the past where I look at that sheet and, you know, and I'm like, we got this, right? We got this. And, you know, I think what's so exciting though about what we do is that There could be 4 or 5 companies that can say the same thing, right? But now that's where it becomes really interesting. And that's where the, like, the fun of this position comes in, at least for me, being able to— okay, so now you have 4 customers that can check off boxes. So now it's like, okay, prospective client, what, what are you, what's gonna differentiate? And I've been, I've been in a position where I actually will say that I've been very proactive, and I think that really helps too. And that's kind of like looking ahead, knowing like, oh, sorry, we're not picking you because of this reason. And it was a very much more emotionally, psychologically driven reason why they didn't pick you versus you were like the right person. You know, it's like a, it's like, I think you're just an amazing person, but I'm gonna break up with you because it's, you know, I just don't think it's a good fit, you know, for, for us. It's like, well, on paper, like, I'm I'm a, you know, a catch, right? And I'm just using that metaphor because I just think it's funny. But, you know, it's like the social rejection of relationships. But yeah, I think so, you know, that's something that I would give advice to pretty much anybody in sales. And I've talked to people internally about this too that were, you know, more on the junior side starting off. It's like, That's great that we can check off those boxes of requirements and these other, but, you know, these other companies are gonna be able to check off those. So we have to really look past that and we have to dive into the emotional and psychological elements here. Like, let's connect those dots and let's challenge them in a way where it's like, okay, yeah, they're, they're the, you're the other vendors that you mentioned are gonna be able to do that too. Right. Let's talk about that.

The psychological and the emotional ones. What were those? I gotta believe when you find somebody who's a mover, a climber, right? You can connect with that. Is the emotion confidence that your product can do what you say? Is it, well, you understand them?

Yeah. So I, so let's just, let me see if I could try to paint like a sample scenario. So you have 3 different software choices, you're a buyer, Right? They all check off the boxes on paper. So how are you gonna decide, right? Maybe they're all saying that they can provide equal business impact to you. So now you start getting into more of the psychological, emotional things of it. Like, what this— these people that I'm working with that I know are making the decision, what is— what do they really care about? What are they really afraid of? Are like, is it Is it they want something that is gonna have these types of dashboards? Are they looking at this superficially? Are are what what about them? What about their position? What about their career? What what about how they're looking at this project? How what is their relationship with the other C levels? So then you have to really start understanding like what are they afraid of? What are they latching onto, right? It's like we— if you lose to that one of those 3 competitors for a reason that just doesn't seem substantiated, but maybe they were tapping into more of the emotional side of it where they're articulating that if they went with them as a vendor, then they wouldn't have to do XYZ. Their path would, they would have a lot less resistance, or maybe the way that they would implement would be very different. And maybe you didn't necessarily talk about that because you were worried about just checking off the boxes. But this person was really concerned about an implementation approach because they worked at a company before and they got burned. And you didn't, you didn't know that.

Yeah.

You didn't, you didn't, you didn't dig enough. You didn't discover that. And that was maybe just a critical piece of information that if you would have found out, If you knew that, then you could have been proactive and know exactly how to frame it and connect the dots to make that person feel comfortable that that wasn't gonna be a challenge if they worked with you.

Yeah, because I've kind of noticed that it usually goes by personal wins where it's they, they like the user interface or they like the brand name, they like what it can do for their career, makes it getting in the next job easier. It's a credential. And I think you're onto it once you can figure that out because it's not the requirements list.

Right.

Because I bet if you took that away from them and asked them to name 5 of them, they couldn't name them.

Right. And then I think the kiss of death, unfortunately, for sales reps is hearing the letters RFP, right? Because that just, you know, falls right in line with that. But yeah, I think everything you're saying is very accurate. This was just kind of interesting.

And what do you think your competition doesn't do well that you do really well?

Are you referring to like the actual solution?

Are you talking about the client interaction?

Yeah, I mean, I, I would be lying if I knew exactly what their client interaction was like. I think any client interaction that is not really addressing a client's concerns on a deep and meaningful level, you know, is really at a disadvantage. And, and we could use that to our advantage, right, for what I do too. If you're proactive and you have like trap-setting questions or you challenge them in terms of like what they really care about. So it's hard for me to answer that because I don't really have access to that, but I would have to just guess, right? I'm competing against the unknown, you know, this is, I love the sports metaphor of like what we do, you know, the competing and you're trying to win all the time, But you, you can only guess at what the other person is doing, or you find out directly from the people that you're talking to at that prospective client.

And now let's inverse it. Let's say you're not column A, you didn't get there first, but you either get the RFI, the RFP, or a phone call. Hey, Aaron, come in and show us what you got.

Right.

How do you displace the incumbent or redefine the playing field to your advantage?

Yeah, I mean, I think, I think it's just really separating solutions, right? It's like, hey, we're not first in the door. You know, you looked at this other vendor, you looked at these other vendors. I think that's great that you looked at them. And let's, let's talk about what they do, what they do well, and let's talk about what we do. And I think you really try to separate yourself in terms of what you're offering and the impact that your solution is going to provide, right? And if you, if you only care about the impact that those other solutions are offering, then I think you should really think, consider working with them. But if you really care about this, this, and this, then I think what we're gonna talk about today is gonna be extremely meaningful, right? So I, I take the high road. I, I, I think that if you do it well, you could really put your competitors at a disadvantage and really be direct about it without bashing them. Because ideally, look, we wanna be consultants at the end of the day, right?

Yeah.

If you do your job well, it's not about me. I could care less what they think about me. I wanna be very knowledgeable. I wanna be honest. I wanna be able to like help them. But it's not about me. It's about Getting them to see that our solution is gonna be the best fit for them based on what I know to be true in terms of the business outcomes that we can provide. And if those align with what they're looking for, then that's when we really would, you know, create some really great synergies.

And when a junior rep comes to you, what's your most common advice? to kind of take them from where they are to where they want to go?

I think just be extremely direct, be very direct, very assertive, you know, and I've mentored people and I think a lot of the people that I've mentored are very articulate people. I think a lot of times though, the newness of being in sales creates an environment and, you know, I went through this too where You're almost afraid to dig deep or you don't do it because of inexperience, right? You, I think being able to challenge prospective clients in a very respectful professional way is extremely important. And I think that's hard for new reps to do.

Yeah.

It doesn't happen overnight. You know, they have to feel very comfortable with that process of like how they're gonna be able to do that.

It takes a certain kind of confidence, right?

Yeah. I mean, I, and I think it ultimately gains respect though. But yes, it does. And the confidence comes with a little bit of practice, right? But yeah, that's probably one of the main things I would say to people.

Because in your sale, you described it, it's kind of that latent pain, that problem that they're unaware of.

Right.

And you have to ask hard questions. And I think at first people kind of sell like a service clerk where they, they go up, they ask certain questions, qualification questions, give the demo or the presentation, the demo, and follow the process.

Right.

But unless you ask the hard questions, you don't even know if it's a match.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yep. And I'll give a quick story. So 2 or 3 years ago, I was on this very large remote demo and they brought in the team in Europe to help make the decision. And this one woman made this comment very negative about what we do and maybe her experience using us before, right? And in that moment, I knew, like, I didn't know what— I honestly didn't know what to do. Like, I didn't challenge anything. I kind of, I let her voice become the voice of the masses. And ultimately we didn't win the deal. We lost. I mean, I lost the deal. I take credit for that. But fast forward, I've been in opportunities where that very same thing is happening, maybe not the exact same scenario, but somebody will come to me and say, well, you know, your competitor is doing this and I can do it like that. I don't have to do this. And those are the moments that I just love because, you know, that's when I start going back to those conversations where you can really separate what you do and what they do and really challenge them. You know, well, let's— I appreciate you saying that. Let's step back for one second. When we last spoke, you mentioned that you were trying to do X, Y, and Z. Because of X, Y, and Z reasons. Now, you know, this is what they do, and this is what you— this is what we do. Those are very 2 different types of solutions with 2 different very types of outcomes. So, and then that's when I just became very proactive and very, very direct, because in that moment you have those— those are the moments where The experience will allow you to be able to do that. But just also the recognition that this is my moment to win or lose the deal. It's right, it's right now. Like, this is, you know, it's like a lot of times, a lot of times you can leave it. A lot of times it is. Yeah, I mean, those are— and that's what's really fun about what we do sometimes, because you get in these moments where you have the ability to really get those people to see something that they didn't see or challenge them based on what they just said. 3 days before on a previous phone call, right? So, you know, that, that I think that comes with just a little bit more practice and experience for people that are starting off. But, um, you just, when you, when you let things fester underneath the surface, they always come back and, you know, bite you later. So, I mean, that's, that's really the, the, the, the science and the, the art of this is try to like pull all of that stuff up to the surface, be able to have Conversations about it early, and then, then you could figure out how you're gonna navigate through. Great.

Hey, Aaron, I really appreciate your time today. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

I'm really not doing this for recognition, but I'm on LinkedIn. If anybody else wants to connect, I'd love to connect with anybody.

What a great guy.

What a great skill. And I think a lot of people may view this wrong. He used the word challenge, but that kind of brings up challenge or sale. I don't think he was debating them or bringing in insight. He was trying to understand their situation and how they're doing things today and what they care about. Really care about, not just what's relevant to your product, but what they're trying to achieve as human beings. And the core desire of people is really to be understood, which is the deepest level of listening. Because everyone thinks listening's just not talking, or that it's Not talking and not waiting to reply, or not talking, not waiting to reply, and showing interest in the other person. But what the deepest level is, them feeling that you understand them, that you get them. When you have that, that's true rapport. Everyone thinks rapport is talking about something that's just mutually interesting. And that's the first level of it. But how many people in your life make you feel understood? Anyone? If you have someone who really understands you, not from a sympathetic standpoint, but really understands what you're going through, your struggles, your desires, your goals, your problems, your hiccups, Now, think of that person. Wouldn't you be more open with that person? More honest?

More forthright?

Well, Brian, that's kind of like a different level. It is. What does that have to do with sales? Well, that's the type of rapport we would like. I characterize it as partner in crime. Meaning, if you've ever seen a movie where 2 buddies are trying to achieve something, they've got that tight bond. They're on a joint path. When I say crime, I don't mean anything illegal. I mean trying to do something that's difficult. Partner in difficult doesn't have the same, uh, ring to it as partner in crime. But when you're able to get that rapport with your champion, when there's honest, open, proactive conversation, you know you can get a deal, or you'll at least know why you couldn't. Today, everybody's working off of what they want to believe, not what's really happening. And when you believe it's the product or the price or politics, You end up doing stupid stuff that probably prevents any deal from happening instead of this deal from happening. So how do you get that? It's not a tip or a trick. It's a skill. It's an ability. It's an advanced skill and ability which requires understanding the other person. Really understanding it, making them feel understood. And that's where the magic happens. Doesn't sound like what you're taught as salespeople. Do you put on your sales voice and talk in motions and plays and go-to-market? Why does everybody have to change the name of something so that they can feel more important? Is that what they want to talk about? They want to talk about them, what they're going through, what they're facing, what they're trying to achieve. And it's usually not in our product language. Digitally disruptive— everyone says that.

What do you do?

Oh, we, uh, uh, digitally disrupt— what's the other word? Digitally enable. And it's like, oh, put me to sleep. I don't know what that means. Yeah, at the highest level, I know what it means. It's like remove paper, put it online. Get it. Okay, so what? That doesn't sell anything. What sells something is really connecting with that other person. That's what we mean when we say relationship and sales. It's not just that they know, like, and trust you. Is that you can now build into that conversation the real issues. And when I talk to sales reps about this, I get deer in the headlights. Not that they don't want to understand it, it just doesn't serve them. You have to understand why it serves you. It's not just work. It's not just Something that other people do. It is— it serves you in the way of getting the real information that you want. And everybody will ask the direct questions. What would you like to do? What would you like to do that you can't do now? They don't know. You have to talk in their language. How do you do this? Where does it get stuck or slow down? What's the longest delay in your workflow? When you start showing interest in them, thinking like somebody, a coworker, who's trying to help them, trying to resolve something, trying to get them to look at life and their workflow a little bit different. Haven't you had some of that epiphany in your own life where somebody points something out like, why are you doing that? Or did you know there's this other way to do it? And all of a sudden the light goes on and you're like, why did I do that for so many years the wrong way or less effective? We get in a rut. We're habitual creatures. Are you in a rut? Most salespeople are. It's a hard job. So what do we do? We dumb it down into motions and plays. We turn off Our mind and just go with the motions and plays, smile and nod, and hope something works out. If it did, you probably wouldn't be here. Learn how companies buy and how they change, and how to keep a deal moving, and how to not act like a salesperson. And I don't mean trusted advisor bullshit. Titles like that. They don't need it. Do they trust you? Really? Do they appreciate your advice? That's not a title you give yourself. That's a title you earn. Everyone just gives it to themselves. They think, oh, since I know the words, I know the meaning. Most people know the words, but they don't know the meaning. Don't limit yourself to just being a clerk. Learn how to close the complex sale. Go to b2brevenue.com right now. Check out the courses. Watch the 2 videos. There's one on how the courses work, the learning management system. You know, how do you log in? Where do you go? The logistics of it. The other video is who the courses are attended targeted for. If you're listening to this podcast and it fits your type of sale, the courses fit. If you're in B2B, uh, your deal sizes are $10K plus, multiple decisions, multiple decision makers, uh, time gaps between conversations, it's a match. If you're selling A single call deal, it's not a match. That's the distinction. It's that simple. Come up with any excuse you want for not taking the course. I don't care and I don't want to hear it. I've heard all the excuses. Enjoy them because you're the only one that believes them. I want to talk to the real people, the people who want to become great at sales. Do you?