HOW TO KEEP LEARNING AND WINNING MORE DEALS IN B2B SALES AND SELLING

One thing that I've noticed interviewing all these great salespeople and sales leaders is that if they happen to cross the path of having a great mentor or a great leader early in their career, it saves them just an enormous amount of time. One, because they learn the right way of doing things, they're able to Kind of hijack their judgment skills, some of the most advanced and important skills of determining what to work on, in what order, in what way. And of course, the inverse is true as well. If you happen to get stuck with a bad sales manager or sales leader, or somebody who thinks that sales is purely activity, that there's no real unique talent or skill to it, then you, you kind of have a misguided belief about what sales is. And I mean, if you were on LinkedIn and you thought, oh, this is what sales is, doing a bunch of dumb things all day long, trying to find a new tool to find more people to abuse, that's the way to sell, or come up with some new gimmick. To get them to give you 15 minutes of their time. That's not selling. That's hounding and bombarding people. Today's guest is one of those great sales leaders. And what he's done really well is empathize with his team, understand what they're up against, go out with them, help them. Instead of counting what they do, they help make what they do count. Let's get into this interview. I hope you'll enjoy it. I'll sum it up at the end. And I also want to make you aware we got 2 certified people, facilitators, instructors who have been in the courses for multiple years. You've heard them on the one-on-ones if you're in the course. What I'm offering now, or what you can get, is on-site customized training. And if you're interested, hit me up on LinkedIn or on the website b2brevenue.com. Also, how do you get better at anything? You do it over and over again. And people make the misguided belief that I've been in this for n number of years I don't need to practice. I don't need to warm up. I don't need to rehearse. Sorry, sales is a performance profession. And I heard on LinkedIn, I put a post about brevity and somebody said, well, I like to engage with my clients and this makes me sound like a robot. It's like, No, it doesn't. No, you sound like a robot now. You're being reactive. None of us are MacGyver. And if you have the MacGyver mentality— MacGyver is— it was a TV show where the guy was in every episode getting stuck in this unique predicament, and it was his job to get out of it. Now, a lot of people in sales have that mindset. The problem is We're not MacGyvers. If you want to put your income at risk on each call, that's up to you. Most people are, but it's your income, not mine. If you want your income to go up, maybe a little preparation, a little rehearsal, a little trial and error where it has zero impact on your income would be a wise way to do it. And that's what Brevity gives you. It's a— yes, it's AI, but it sounds like a real human being. It isn't structured. It is completely impromptu. Yet what you can do is, let's say you have a call with Joe at whatever company, you give it Joe's website, Joe's LinkedIn profile, and it comes up with a customized conversation for you. What is most likely going to happen based off of patterns? I find that insanely valuable. Take your manager, go to brevitypitch.com and check it out.

Here we go.

Okay.

Hey, Rick, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Yeah, sure thing, Brian. Uh, well, first of all, I've been in sales for about 30 years. And it's funny because it's like the tale of 2 careers. First 4 years, I was all over the place. You know, I started out, it's like every sales cliché. I started out selling frozen food, not out of the back of the truck. I literally had appointments. I'd have to go into people's homes. And I knew I was done when I had to go in and try to sell an Amish family once. I'm like, first of all, they have no electricity, so they have nowhere to put the food. And I think they're pretty good on their own food. So that was short-lived. Then I sold dating services, right? So this is long before eHarmony. I literally had to get people to come into an office and I'd try to sell them dating packages upwards of about $4,000 for some of these packages, if you can imagine that. And then I got into advertising. So I started to kind of head back into more, I guess, normal sales. And then I got into selling B2B cell phones, which right when cell phones were starting to really be become more of a more commonplace. So I literally start, you know, I'd call on everybody, electricians, plumbers, I'd go to the bottom of a, you know, large office complex, start at the bottom, knock on every door, you know, said no soliciting, just plowed right through. So that was probably the first 4 years. And then I got into pharmaceuticals, which was sort of my goal all along. But, you know, they weren't going to take a chance on me until I had some sales experience. And then I transitioned into, you know, I was with Pfizer for about almost 10 years. And then I— the last 16 years I've spent with a company called Aegis Sciences, and we're a diagnostics company based in Nashville. So we do a lot of the testing for, you know, health systems, hospitals, addiction, you know, treatment centers, you know, all this crazy stuff you see out there with the fentanyl and so forth. Like, that's right in our wheelhouse, and that's what we test for. Started out as a rep, went into management after about 4 years, and the last 8 years I spent as a director.

Nice. So you like all the easy stuff, huh?

Yeah, exactly. You got that right. You know, the funny part about it is, you know, my dad was in sales, and I'll talk about him, you know, multiple times because he's a huge influence on me. But he sold insurance for about 35 years. So the logical move would have been, well, just take over his book of business. But I distinctly remember early in my career meeting him and his colleagues for lunch. And we would sit there and I would listen to them just complain. They complain about their goals, they complain about their boss, they complain about, you know, Commissions.

Salespeople don't do that.

Right. And I thought to myself, why would I want to go work for this company? Now, little did I know that every salesperson for every company in the entire world does the exact same thing. But when you're 22 years old, you're like, I don't want to do this. So I don't regret it. Because the insurance industry has obviously changed dramatically since then. But, you know, the path I've taken has been a little circuitous. But where I am, I'm very happy. I love what I do.

And what was the impetus to get into leadership?

You know, I mean, every— everything I've done throughout my career as an athlete, you know, even when I was in a sales role, I just— I've always gravitated to a leadership position. It's just I'm comfortable doing it. I can't explain it. I don't think, you know, real leaders actually, you know, can. I think there's just this feeling, this, you know, magnetic pull that you have. And so I knew I love to sell. Don't get me wrong. I mean, my, in my heart, I consider myself a salesperson. But if I can help coach, teach, develop people who are also salespeople, then that's where I get my gratification. When I see a salesperson, you know, succeed or a manager, you know, because at the end of the day, right, my job as a director is to lead managers. But I can't help getting down in the trenches with my reps, you know, getting into the field, you know, prospecting with them, calling on existing accounts and And so forth. But at the end of the day, like, I get the gratification seeing them walk across stage at the end of the year, you know, winning their awards and so forth. Yeah, it's nice for me to win. But to tell you the truth, I'm one of those people that I hate to lose more than I like to win. You know, so I— and if I see a competitor, you know, one of my colleagues in the same position as me winning, I'm like, you know, what did I do wrong? You know, where did I fall short? You know, what buttons didn't I push?

Yeah.

And I still have that drive every single day.

And what keeps you in this space? Because it seems like it's a tough space.

It is brutal. It is highly competitive diagnostics, man. I mean, it is brutal. 16 years and I've seen it all. And, you know, there's so much, you know, it's very, it's like any business. I mean, I'm not saying it's unique to diagnostics, but the rules and regulations that exist out there for pharmaceuticals are pretty cut and dry. The lab space, there's a lot of labs out there that kind of tiptoe through the raindrops and hope they don't get caught. And unfortunately, there's a lot of physicians that kind of have that same philosophy. So, you know, that's, that's the kind of the end of the pool I don't play in. And I just tell my people, you know, that one of my core values is integrity. And I've sort of stayed true to that throughout my career. And I think that's what's kept me in it. 'Cause I don't get into the mud and roll around and that sort of thing. And I love the people I work with. I truly do. I've had this, this is kind of interesting. Our leadership team that we have in place now, I think I last count, we're about 74 years combined experience in diagnostics, all with the same company. And we know when to push each other. We know when to pull back. We have mutual respect. It's a collaborative relationship. And, you know, that's what drives me. I don't want to go somewhere else necessarily and start over.

Yeah.

You know, because I just, I feel like I'm in a good rhythm now and I feel like there's so much we can still accomplish.

And I've noticed that when people get into leadership, they like building something because as a rep, it's fun. You make a ton of money, but it's kind of cyclical, right? You get a new comp plan, a new territory. You kind of got to get it The adjustment to that. And then you, you run for 12 months and then it starts all over again.

You're right.

Leadership kind of gives you a little bit more building.

Yes. Yeah, 100%. You know, and I think, you know, it's interesting you say that because that is, that's what it's about for me. And I just kind of look where we were when we started and where we are today. And just more importantly, like, you know, the people, because I hired, you know, some of the people that work for me now, I hired them when I was a manager. I hired them as reps. And then when I got promoted, I, you know, I groomed them to move into management positions as well. So we built that. But then taking kind of developing the next level of leaders and then helping people just see their true value and their true potential. To me, that's the fun of it. You know, I made the analogy yesterday and I think you'll appreciate this. You know, you talk to really good comedians and they always say, you know, when I look out at the audience, I zero in on that one person who isn't laughing. And that's the guy I'm trying to make laugh. So I look at my sales team and I'm like, which one of my salespeople am I going to really focus on and get the most out of them? You know, and when I started doing that and I did the same with my leaders, it's just kind of, you know, transformed my leadership approach.

But salespeople can kind of be a little squirrely, can't they?

Oh, yes. There's no question about it. And, you know, the funny thing, and I say this all the time to my managers, you know, We want our reps to be so successful, but at the end of the day, you can't want it more than they do, right? And I see that all the time, you know, because it's all set up for them. Their territory is ripe for the picking. Like the big, you know, the rep from the competitive lab has left. So, you know, it's like, all right, now it's right there. And they're just like, there's no sense of urgency. You know, that's why all the time you talk about, you know, Summit of Excellence or President's Circle or whatever companies call it. And you keep pushing someone and then they're like, you know what? You never asked me, but that doesn't really motivate me. You know, so, you know, what motivates me is I want to like be recognized by my peers and my customers. You know, I want to, you know, I want to make money so I can support my family. So I think the one thing that I've really started to do is just challenge my leaders and myself to dig deeper and find out, you know, what my salespeople's why is.

Yeah.

Because you might think it's one thing or it may think, well, it should be what mine is. But it can be something completely different. So if you're managing them based on this why and their why is over here, you're not going to succeed.

I think that's probably in the top 3 mistakes first-time sales leaders make is assuming everybody is identical to them.

Yeah.

Or they try and hire a mirror copy of them.

You're right.

It doesn't, you know, you can't get 10, you might get 1.

Right?

Right.

No, you're right. It's true. You might— you're right, exactly. You might, you know, spin the wheel and every once in a while it'll land on the right number, but more often than not, it won't.

Well, what was it like going from managing reps to leading leaders?

That's a really good question. And, you know, I think about that a lot because the real challenge for me is like, so I started out with some of these people like that I know is they were my colleagues. Like, there's a story, a good friend of mine, we've worked together since the beginning. He was my manager when I first got into sales for this company. Then him and I were peers, and now I am his boss. So, aside from ribbing him because we're such good friends, I say, you know, that was a tremendous challenge. And there was a lot of friction initially, right? Because, you know, he's like, how did this happen? How did this guy, number one, catch up to me? And then how did he pass me? You know, and I think we just had different career trajectories. I wanted something that he didn't necessarily want. And I think once he understood that, you know, I was going to work for him and I wanted— everything I did was designed to help him and his reps be successful and I didn't have my own agenda, then the light bulb went on and he was like, all right, I get it now. You know, we're partners in this. And that's a real difficult thing because almost all the time a leader has another agenda, right? They want to take that next step in their career. And don't get me wrong, Brian, I mean, I'd love to be a vice president of sales. I'd love to have my, you know, an entire team underneath me. And I believe it will happen in my career, but it will happen when it's time. I'm not obsessed about it. I'm not preoccupied with it. I'm focused on the here and now and developing my leaders. And so when I do get that opportunity, that next person will step up and then the rep that I've developed will step into a management position and so on.

So you're able to separate the ego from the job, right?

Listen, it took a while, and I'm sure there's people in the company that don't think I do that. But you always have to have a little bit of an ego to be in our business, right? And I think that's good. I think that's what, you know, that as long as you balance that with some degree of humility, you know, I think that's the key, right? At the end of the day. And I think a lot of leaders don't get, certainly reps want some autonomy. Sure.

Right? Because they need to figure a little bit out for themselves.

Yep. No, you're right about that. You know, and it's interesting, I mentioned earlier that I love to get out into the field, get in the trenches. And, you know, I think it's very interesting because I see a lot of the polls that you guys put out there and the question, should a manager make cold calls? Should a manager prospect? So on and so forth. And I mean, the question is never, should a director do it? But from my position is, I mean, number one, like I said earlier, I love to sell. I want to be out there on my own sometimes because I want to see it with my own eyes. Like, I— because by the time it, you know, trickles up to me, it's been like filtered so much. I don't know what's really happening out there and what they're telling me is happening out there. So if I spend a day and I just— and I don't ask for anyone's help, I literally pretend I'm a rep and I build the day. And I said, so, okay, these are the 12 offices I'm prospecting today. And I go in and I just say, hey, we have a new rep coming into the market. I just wanted to come out. I'm doing some pre-work for him. So when he gets out of training, he'll be ready to go. You know, and go through the whole, you know, the whole process. And I've learned so much about our business and about certain markets and literally about myself, you know, and I think it gives me credibility and it shows everybody that, listen, I'm not, I'm not in it for myself. Like, I'm not afraid to get down and roll up my sleeves and find out what you guys are dealing with on a day-to-day basis. And then when I'm talking to my boss, it's not, well, you know, Joe in Maryland told me this. It's like when I was in the field in Maryland, I saw this, and this is an issue we need to address now or it's going to become worse. So I, I think it's just, uh, it gives me credibility on all different levels of the organization. Yeah.

And understanding and empathy for what they're going through.

100%. That's the key.

And, you know, too many people who get to the director level are watching things through the numbers, the dashboard. And they forget that somebody's entering that stuff to make you look a certain way.

You're so right. That's it. I mean, that's it, right? I mean, that's the view, I think, of a director is sitting at your desk, looking at numbers, pushing emails out and text messages. What's going on here? What's wrong with this account? They haven't done this. And, and I'll admit, I started that way. And I hated it. And I was getting burnt out. And I was losing my passion for the position. And I said, enough is enough. And I just said, you know, I'm going to be in the field as much as possible. And, you know, first, you know, people would be like, oh my gosh, my director's coming to work with me. This is going to be a disaster. And once they saw that I was there genuinely to help them get better and to remove barriers, then everything changed. And it's fun for them now too. They actually say, hey, when are you coming out to ride with me again? But then, you know, like when you talk to other divisions who don't necessarily do that, their reps are like, what, your director rode with you? What did you do wrong?

That's it. If you can teach them that you're there to have their back and not judge them.

That's it. Because, you know, listen, I think I instantaneously have some credibility because I sold in this space. Now, granted, when I sold in this space, it was significantly different than it is now. But that in and of itself, that credibility wears off after a while. Uh, and I think you have to continually earn it time and time again. Uh, and believe me, there's times, you know, in the— this time of year where I don't want to go up to Maine or New Hampshire and—

Why not?

But, you know, I do, uh, because I, uh, I know how important it is. Uh, I used to have like South Carolina and North Carolina, Florida. I miss those days because from like December down to February, I knew which reps I was riding with. It was easy. Because it's like, do I go to Indiana? Do I go to Maine?

Well, it's hard to lead if you don't really understand what they're going through.

Yeah, that's how I look at it, you know. And I think that's, you know, fundamentally, that's probably an issue that exists within a lot of companies, uh, you know, is that lack of understanding, true understanding, right? You know, you're a smart guy, you're sent to a certain position, you can put pieces together and Uh, you know, but ultimately there's nothing better than seeing it and experiencing it with your own eyes. Yeah.

Because, you know, I used to call it, you know, the bunker people. They were like, you know, the World War II analogies where they're pushing ships around in tanks.

Right.

Well, everything's easy in the bunker.

Yeah.

Go out on the front line.

Yeah. It's a little bit different out there.

Yeah.

Scary. You take a shrapnel and so forth. Yeah. And the other thing too, like, and I mentioned my father earlier, and he, huge influence on my life. And like, even as I was younger, like, I don't know how he knew, but he, and maybe he didn't, maybe it was just, it's all he knew to relate to me, 'cause he never played sports. So he would try, coach me in soccer, coach me in baseball the best he could. He'd go to the library, get the books, do the drills, all 9 yards. But the one thing he could teach me was life and kind of sales and what he knew. And I mean, I remember specifically, and people think I'm crazy, like, I read Think and Grow Rich when I was in high school. I read How to Win Friends and Influence People when I was in high school. You know, when other kids are reading, you know, Catcher in the Rye, you know, these are the books I'm reading. And he instilled that in me. And I truly believe, Brian, I don't know how you feel about this, but there should be high school courses, at the very least college courses on those 2 books, 7 Habits of Highly Effective People and Starts with Why. If you bundle a course together with those 4 books, You will find your way in life. You'll have success. Whatever endeavor you choose, you will find success. I don't know how you— does that make sense? Those books impactful for you too?

Yeah, because I think too many of us, we, you know, school was designed for factory workers.

Yeah, that's true. Good point.

And sales, we're out talking to strangers all day long. Yep.

You're right.

And we think people think logically.

Yeah. They don't.

They say they do, right? But wait till they make a decision.

Yeah, no, that's true. You're so right about that. But I always— I don't— it's interesting because I really, you know, obviously, since I'm a, I'm a learner, I love to read, listen to podcasts, books on tape and books. See, there's an example of how old I am. Books on tape. I still call them masking tape or duct tape or Right. That's the look I get. But, you know, I really try to get these, you know, I call them these kids because a lot of them are to me, you know, in their 20s, early 30s. And I get these kids to try to do this at a young age and make it part of their growth and maturity because, and I see sometimes again, I see stuff on LinkedIn, the question will be raised, you know, what do you think about sales books or, you know, sales training and things of that? And there's always this I know how to sell. Like, but I mean, look at baseball players. Before every single game, what do they do? They take batting practice, they field ground balls. I mean, they— every single day, 162 games a year, they do that because they're going to get better. They're going to get a ground ball they never had before. They're going to get a pitch they've never seen before, and you're going to get better. That's when you talk a little bit about brevity, and there's a plug for you. But I think that's cool because I tell my people to practice, record yourself, and just watch yourself back. You'll be amazed at how bad you are and how much room you have for growth. You know, so that's the kind of stuff I try to instill in these, these kids. And I think the ones that have had more success than others are the ones that buy into it, at least to some degree.

That's it. Because in school, it's a test. You're right or you're wrong.

Yep.

Or an essay where the teacher interprets how good you are and they go out in the real world. But that's not the way the real world works.

Yeah.

And I bet before you go out in the field, you're in the car flipping through the pages going, what's the flow of the call? You know, what questions should I ask? How, what's my opener? How do I engage them? How do I get the next step?

Yeah, 100%, because I'm not doing it every day, you know, so I need to do that. So you're right. And I'm— and I'll go in and I'll do the first call and I'll be like, God, that was terrible. I'll be like, so— but then I notice as the day goes on and in between calls, as I'm walking through it in my head, it just gets better and better and better. So I, I never understood why people don't take advantage, because, you know, when you and I were first starting out, the only way either we get our, you know, our spouse or partner to, to listen to us, which they loved, or we do it in front of the mirror. Uh, you know, now you have so many vehicles that can help give you feedback immediately that we don't take advantage of it. And I, I don't get that.

It's, it is a kind of a different mindset. I found that people with performance backgrounds— sports, music, debating, anything that's subjective Where there's a coach.

Yep.

And so much of sales is counterintuitive.

You're right. It's true.

What do you look for in a rep when you're hiring them?

You know, that keeps evolving. I used to have what I thought was the perfect blueprint, and then I got burnt. And I probably took shortcuts in the interview because I was so sure this was the right candidate. And I mean, we've all done that, right? You're like, oh, this is it. You just get that gut feeling and you're like, ah, I don't need to ask them that. I know. And then you get them into the field and you're like, wow, I screwed that one up. You know, so now I grill them, man. And I don't want to keep— listen, anybody can put anything they want on their resume, and you can make what you accomplished at your previous company sound like the greatest thing since sliced bread, which is another phrase no one uses anymore, right? But the fact is, I have kind of a wheelhouse now where I, you know, for our particular space, you know, it's usually somebody that this is going to be their first job in the medical field. I don't necessarily want somebody that's coming from pharmaceutical or device or something of that nature. I want somebody that's maybe worked in like Cintas or Paychex or enterprise, good training. They're knocking on doors, they're getting kicked in the teeth. They're learning what it takes to build a business because that person, I can teach them how to sell our product. That's easy. It just takes time and practice. But you can't teach that resilience and that persistence and that personal accountability. And the last probably 6 or 8 hires I've made over the last 4 or 5 years have all fit into that kind of niche. And it's— and the results have been terrific. So I'm not saying that works for everybody, but it has been working for us.

And when you made a mistake in the past, what question didn't you ask?

You know, I go back 100 times and, you know, I think about that. And I think what it comes— for me, it comes down to, Give me an example of how you overcame adversity. And I don't care if it was you missed a sale or you got yelled at by your boss or you got demoted, whatever that adversity was, I don't care. Maybe you got moved from the varsity to JV. I don't care how far back you have to go. But what did that look like and how did you handle it? And tell me what happened next in your career. And I didn't ask that because I guess maybe I presumed that the person never faced adversity because they were so smooth and they had kind of, you know, Rushed to the top. Made it to this stage in their career with relative ease. And, uh, it turned out the first time they got hit with any degree of adversity in the job, they were just like a deer in the headlights. They didn't know what to do. Because, and go ahead.

In your space, a lot of the stuff is drop-ins. Is that true?

Yep. 100%. Yep. Yeah. Right. And they're getting, you know, and people, let's face it, people aren't exactly looking forward to somebody interrupting their day. I know, I'm a salesperson, of course. Yeah, listen, I have 900 things to get done and now I've got to entertain you for 5 minutes, you know. So yeah, and that's tough. But you know, when you take the thing— I mean, you know, at the end of the day, I don't care what you're selling, it is a numbers game. Uh, now you can do things to make the numbers work in your favor, obviously, like the things we talked about earlier. But the more dials you make, the more doors you knock on, eventually you're going to get somebody to— you're going to connect with And this person just, he could not get past that, the rejection. And then just, I kicked myself, but it was a learning experience, you know? So I have no regrets at the end of the day because I learned from it. I've gotten better as a leader and better as a hiring manager as well, which is probably the most important thing that I do is hire people.

And how about the reps that either can't take coaching or argue when they get coaching?

Yeah, I'm at the point now, and I we've built a really good organization here in the East Northeast, and we don't have a lot of turnover, and we have a pretty good rhythm with our people now. So they realize again what I said earlier: like we're not questioning how hard you're working; we're not criticizing you; we're trying to point out things that we've observed that we think can make you better. You know, so while there may be some pushback, you know, I kind of diffuse the situation. I'm a pretty calm guy. I was like, listen. You don't have to get defensive. I'm not attacking you. I'm trying to help you. I think once you say that to somebody, then that changes the whole dynamic of the conversation.

Yeah.

So very rarely do I have somebody that stays heated during a conversation once I take that, you know, once I take the stress and the anxiety out of the conversation.

And how did you develop that style? Because that is a talent.

Yeah, I think I learned the hard way because then, you know, I would watch and then I would raise my level, they'd raise their level, I'd go higher. And then it was just Nothing got done.

No one's listening.

Right. And the next time we interacted, it was uncomfortable. And there was just— and then if I had to ride in the field with them, it was always hanging over us. And no, that doesn't mean to say that I'm not, you know, I still won't push someone and challenge them and call them out if I think they're not being candid, or they're not doing as much as they can. But it's just the way I do it has changed.

And how can you tell when a rep is ready to become a leader?

Well, I have an individual right now who's in a position where I think they're ready to take that next step. And, you know, and I just had a conversation with my boss about that and some of the things we need to do. And I think, again, it comes down to, you know, self, you know, educating themselves, right? I think there's some great books out there. Servant Leader, you know, Leaders Eat Last. Those are must-reads for a leader. Well, that's in and of itself not going to do it. But, you know, I think getting him on calls, you know, shadowing other leaders, sending him into the field in kind of a management role to kind of observe behaviors and make observations, not necessarily in his area because that could be a little, could be some friction, but I send him to another market. If I have new hires, I'll bring the new hires in. And I just wanna see how they respond while also continuing to grow their market and be successful with what they do. Because sometimes when people, make the decision that they want to move into a leadership role, they stop doing the other stuff that made them successful. So I just make sure I try to strike that balance. And because I'm a big believer in promoting from within, like anytime I can do that, I want to do it.

How about if they have the wrong motive or the wrong intent? Maybe they're turning 30 and it's time to be a leader, right?

Yeah. No, absolutely. I've seen that with my own eyes. And I had a guy who's my manager now. He He's one of my most successful managers, but he wanted to do it probably about a year and a half before he was ready. And it caused, you know, there was some definite friction between him and I. But now he looks back and says the best thing that happened to him because he believes he would have failed because he wasn't ready. Because at the end of the day, right, a sales rep says, listen, I've won some of, you know, our circle of excellence, you know, X amount of years in a row. I'm always at goal. I can be a leader. Well, there's a little bit, little bit more to it than that, uh, you know. So I think it's just kind of pointing out to them areas that they can continue to grow, things they can do within the organization to kind of showcase their, their abilities, improve their skills. And once they do that and they understand it, and then they— something clicks, then you got them. Then they're like, all right, I see it now.

And as a leader, what do you think your biggest mistake was?

That's a— I think when I started as a leader, I wanted— I had success as a rep, you know, I had success as a manager, you know, in some capacity. But then I think I made it too much about myself. You know, I wanted the success, I wanted the personal accolades, I wanted to walk across the stage and be recognized as the best. And it was transparent. I think I probably used, when I was talking to you, probably used words like I, I, I, you know, I'm like, what am I doing? Me, me, me.

Right, exactly.

You know, I want to win, you know, Circle of Excellence of the Year. I want to do this. And I was like, wait a second, you know, I mean, this is wrong. I'm not a sole contributor anymore. And I think for me, that was a major, you know, crystallizing moment for me because everything changes after that when you realize it isn't about you. It's about the people you're trying to work with and work for. And I think that's the keyword, right? Work for. And once that shift happens, everyone sees it. But it has to be authentic, right? Like, I've seen some leaders will do it for 6 months or a year, and then when nobody's looking, they'll go back to what they did before. But, you know, my thing is, once you've done it and people believe in it and they buy into it, it changes, you know, the whole dynamic of your team.

Well, hey, Rick, really appreciate your time today. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

Well, I'm on LinkedIn, Rick Sully. You can check me out there. And I also have the Sully Says podcast. They could check that out. I'm not going to compete with you. It's just another resource for people to learn, Brian. So I really enjoyed talking to you. I love your stuff. And I hope we can chat again someday.

I like that story a lot. And it reminds me of one of the first first jobs I had in sales, and I lucked out having a manager and a couple of managers and mentors that were very talented. And we were selling very high-end enterprise software and hardware at that time. And what we always did was we always had a preparation meeting before the sales call. Afterwards, we had this post-mortem And through that, I learned so much because at the time I was this naive pre-sales engineer hoping to get into sales. I saw the money they were making, the lifestyles they had, and I got into really positive systems, ways of thinking, questioning, debating, discussing. It was never about activity. It was about quality. And from that, I learned so much about how companies buy, how to lead a sales process instead of reacting to it. And if I didn't have that early setup, my career could have gone a very different direction because the job I got after that was much more like what I see today— counting activities. It was smaller deals. They weren't transactional, but they weren't the big dollar amount. And if I had that job first, I would have had terrible habits. And then I got into another startup where it was kind of a mix of them, and it was a great match for me. Because I knew that deep understanding of how to get the technical win and how to get the economic win, and I crushed it. It wasn't about personality and charm, although that helps quite a bit if I had it back then. And people forget that the person you see today isn't the person Who was back then, I was just a nervous Nelly, very shy and nervous about talking to executives, yet insanely motivated. And when you're motivated enough, you tend to learn. And that's kind of what I'm coming to the conclusion of, is people learn as fast as they want to, not as fast as they can. We can learn insanely fast if we want to. The problem is in sales, we get addicted, addicted to our ego, rationalizing why we're okay, because feeling that pain is painful and we avoid it. Our brain is a pain avoidance machine. We don't recognize it until someone points it out to us. Like, I put together a, you know, a to-do list pretty much every day, every week, and at the end, I often notice the stuff that didn't get done was the stuff that I didn't want to do. My mind is constantly avoiding it. I always I seem to find some way of distracting myself. Why do we procrastinate? It's pleasurable. Why do we not do the things we know we should do? Because it's painful. Sales, it's getting used to those little pains, breaking them down so they're not as painful, coming up with smarter, easier ways of of doing it, connecting it up with things that are more pleasurable. It's kind of a game that we have to play with ourselves to get us to do the things that are less desirable. But if we don't do it, you know what happens. So in sales, it's really about getting yourself ready to learn, want to learn, put your ego aside. Separate the performance from the performer. The performer is still good as long as we want to learn, take feedback, understand it's not about us as a person, it's about us as a salesperson. How well did we do it? And if you focus on the quality The quantity doesn't seem to matter as much because you're closing more deals. Our brain will naturally gravitate towards where the revenue is, unless we value the busyness above the revenue. This is why managers love busyness. It has the same basic signal As revenue, except for there's no money in it. That's the only piece that's missing. Unfortunately, that's a big piece. So what do we do? We have to have that judgment. And I never met a manager yet that didn't want me to work harder. They all want you to work hard. You know why? Because nobody cares how hard someone else works. Oh, you want to work the weekend? 24 hours? Good, go for it. Yet we're the person that has that biological machine that needs to rest, that needs to focus on the things that get us the reward. And the reward in sales is revenue, which turns into commission. Busyness, um, I'm not sure what it does. You get some reps, you might learn a little, but you might learn some wrong things too. It's all about what you close. Learning how to focus on the things in the right order. That judgment part of selling is so critical. And this is what I teach in both courses. And if you're interested, if you want to get more conversations started, Wouldn't you like to learn how? And it's very interesting working with people and the resistance I get because it doesn't have the same busyness feeling that you have with the 50 calls and 100 emails and all that rejection. But it works. People fight it because it's counterintuitive, but All of sales is counterintuitive. It's not about us. It's about them. It's about listening, not talking. It's about leading, not pushing. These tenets of great salesmanship are no longer taught today. Why? Because everybody thinks it's a numbers game. And if it was a numbers game, go buy a lottery ticket. It's, it's about a focus game, focusing on who is most likely to care, most likely to build interest with us, most likely to engage with us, most likely to buy. And people view sales as, oh, it's a 2-day course, go out there, go nuts. It is a 2-day course if you're just hitting buttons. And if that's working, you wouldn't be here.

It's a skill game.

It's a focus game. And those are the people that are successful. Has one person on this show talked about busyness? Everyone works hard. But how do they work hard? That's the question. And you should be asking yourself And I ask myself all the time, because believe me, you know, at the end of the week, I grade myself on the week, and I notice I spent way too much time on these things that are distractions. There's payoff for it. It's not like just scrolling. It gives me some results, but is it the high-leverage results?

Sometimes.

Sometimes not. And then I have to break that habit and create another one.

We're all like this.

We got to admit it to ourselves. Put the ego aside and say, what do I really want? Do I want to be right or do I want to be rich? I'm not doing this just for giggles. I'm doing this to be successful. Because that's why we're in sales. Go to b2brevenue.com, invest one year in your life, and watch what can happen. When I see people who've been doing this multiple decades increase their revenue, their income by 30% by investing in themselves, taking their game apart, analyzing it, putting it back together Understanding the traps that they were falling into, that their instincts were their enemy in sales, then, then that's rewarding. Or you see somebody just their first year in sales that's really motivated, that doesn't want to just be busy all day, having the success that they thought they could have in sales. sales, getting, you know, a nice $20,000 commission check. Oh, that's rewarding. Check out the courses and ask yourself, do you really want to do this, or do you just want to be busy? We'll see you next time.