HOW TO LEARN TO GET COMFORTABLE WITH THE HARD STUFF IN B2B SALES

Hey, before we get into the interview, I want to make sure you're aware of our other podcasts, the Sales Questions, Brutally Honest Answers show, which is a very quick, under 5 minutes in most cases, sometimes just a few minutes where I answer your questions. You can just send me any question to my LinkedIn profile, Brian G. Burns, and I'll put it in the queue to answer. Also, the Sales Leadership Show. If you're looking to get into sales leadership or you want to hear from the world's best sales leaders, that's where I interview them. Check it out, the Sales Leadership Show. Also at b2brevenue.com, you can learn all about all the courses. Links are in the show notes below, as well as our link to our partners over at brevitypitch.com, the fastest, easiest way to become great at sales and practice.

Before it's showtime, here we go. Hey, Brock, welcome to the show. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Thanks, Brian. Happy to be here. Yeah, so I, like a lot of people, fell into sales, uh, in the staffing and recruiting industry out of college, um, cut my teeth there as a recruiter. Moved into a business development role, a producing manager role, uh, took a little foray into the software sales world as a producing manager, and now back into the staffing recruiting space in an enterprise capacity.

And how'd you like it the first year? Was it easy?

The first year? No, I almost got fired twice. I think that's probably a common theme that you've heard. Um, but, you know, a good buddy of mine referred me in and, uh, showed me the ropes. It was awesome to have multiple mentors who were not my manager, who I think that's a super important thing to have starting out in sales and then in your career in general.

Yeah. So what was it like that first year and what were some of the lessons that you learned?

I learned personally that I was much too analytical. You know, I tried to evaluate every call before I made it. Sit there and think how the conversation was gonna go before I picked up the phone and dialed. And that was a very quick lesson learned that you can't do that in sales. You know, the more at-bats you have, the faster you're gonna ramp in a sales career. And as a recruiter, it's, it's kind of a mini sales role. You know, we're, we're responsible for the product, which is people in the staffing industry. And it helped me out tremendously moving into a business development role because I was tightly ingrained with the product before I went and had to sell the product.

And who were you recruiting? What was the persona?

Mostly IT. Oh, technologists. Yeah, some, some of the most introverted and analytical people in the world. So, and also some of the least predictable products on the market.

Yeah. Yeah. But well, because they've got their own agenda, they don't talk about analytical. Right. Right. Did they pick up the phone or they picked it up only hoping it was somebody they knew?

Yeah. Let me tell you, uh, email, phone, text messages, smoke signals, however we could get ahold of people. And, you know, that's really where I think I developed a lot of skills, uh, doing in-person meetings because Sometimes we had to go meet these people where they were, you know, they're, they're not hanging out on their phone ready to take a call from a recruiter. They're at user group meetings, they're at networking events. Um, you know, if they're out there, they're at technology conferences. And so getting out and working a floor and pressing the flesh, you know, that really helped in my future sales career by having to do that early just to get conversations with people.

So did your analytical side help you there? Because I mean, your personality seems more aligned with an engineer than it does a salesperson, which is good. It's a compliment.

Thanks. And yeah, it did. You know, it was a, it was something that challenged, I was challenged with at the very early part of my sales career, which is, hey, don't be too analytical. This might hurt you. And, you know, I've found that I've been able to balance it. And actually make it work for me because, you know, I'm able to meet those engineers where they are. I'm able to meet those future, you know, CTOs where they are. And it's helped because I'm a relationship builder now. And some of those relationships I've had for 10+ years. And it's different than the typical approach that they get from salespeople, which is very surface level, you know.

Yeah.

So being able to go deep while Taking those bad habits and pushing them to the side very early of let me look at the resume, look at the profile, look at LinkedIn for an hour before I make the call. That's helped me a ton.

Yeah. And what's your approach? How do you approach like an engineer? What's your— I don't care about the opener so much, but kind of what's your style?

Yeah, it's consultative really, you know, especially when You know, in the staffing industry, you have to know not just, you know, the person that you're recruiting's business, but in a sales or business development role, you have to know what makes them money and not just their company, but how are they getting bonused out? What projects are on their plate that if it doesn't get done, they're not getting bonused? And talking about projects and being able to talk industry speak to somebody, you know, you know as well as I do and probably a lot of the listeners that knowing the client's industry is super important, but going one step deeper and understanding what is the company's initiatives, what is gonna make this person get that massive annual bonus and how can I press on that to sell our services? Yeah.

And what motivates you emotionally?

Emotionally, I think it's to be known as an expert.

Really?

Yeah, to be known, to be seen as a guru in something, you know, whether it's a specific software or whether it's a process, you know, as a sales manager, I've had to train people from the ground up over and over and over and being seen whether it's by an alumni group, by people who are working for me, buying a client as an expert, you know, your name is brought up in conversations when that product or service that you're selling is needed. And that's what I get the most joy out of in my sales career.

And how have you applied that?

I think, you know, some people would say that they've applied it in their personal brand. You know, I've managed to stay offline and off social media except for my LinkedIn profile. I think, you know, personally through generating referrals. You know, the staffing industry is 100% a timing and referrals-based business. And in my new role, you know, at Robert Half, it's even more so because I'm starting from zero essentially with a new territory, new book of business.

Yeah.

But being able to parlay some of those relationships where, you know, even if it was 5, 6 years ago, a manager goes, Hey, Brock knows how to find talent. You know, that, that is a golden ticket in our industry.

Yeah. So you build up that expertise so that they know you're the go-to guy.

You're not only the go-to guy, but, you know, you're the go-to guy even when your price is a little bit higher than maybe the industry standard. You know, if you help the manager, director, VP, CIO deliver on a project that, you know, earned him or her a massive bonus, clout in the company, a promotion, you're gonna be seen on that hierarchy scale as not just the vendor, but as that trusted advisor that's gonna help them do the same thing over and over.

Now, I gotta believe that 9 out of 10 people in your space would answer that the same way, but not behave the same way. Tell me about how you behave differently.

I got you.

Yeah.

How I behave differently from a normal staffing person. I think, you know, a typical staffing person is going to try to put a body in a seat, right?

Get the fee right.

And whether or not they're a perfect fit, And, you know, a lot of staffing company websites are gonna be very similar. You know, it's we find the best fit, we find the best match. But in reality, it's how we find the first one available. Who's the first person available at the highest fee? And, you know, here's all my marketing data behind why you should put, hire this person now. And I think a lot of leaders, over time see through that a bit. You know, the industry is quite commoditized at this point. So, you know, those people who can be a solution provider and, and not just try and slam somebody in the door, whether it's a temporary job or a direct hire job, you know, it's, it's a value that is, you know, uncommon, I would say.

Yeah, because, you know, I've been the customer On both sides of it, trying to get a job and hire people. And the difference between the average recruiter and the above average is enormous.

It's, it's, it's massive. And it honestly can cost you more having a bad recruiter than it does to have the seat unfilled for 4 or 6 weeks. Yeah.

Anybody who's made a bad hire knows that.

Yes.

And, you know, on the sales side, it's probably easier to skate through an interview than it is on the technical side. But technical side, there's quantitative, you know, whiteboard tests you can give. In sales, sometimes, you know, if you show up in a nice suit and a good handshake and a smile, that's half of it.

Yeah. What's the number one thing a sales manager is gonna say after an interview? I liked him, or I liked it.

Yeah. Did you like them? That's the number one question. It's a feeling. It's not analytical, or that's an A-, or that's a 92 because—

right.

Now, is your placement contingency or fee, or retainer, I guess is the right word?

We have all of the above. So that's the awesome part of this new role and really why I took it. Is we have that executive search retained. We have contingency, we have temp placements, and then we have consulting. That's really kind of an elevated contract role.

Yeah, maybe this is too personal. Is it 100% commission?

No, no, it's base plus. Actually, all of my jobs in the past have been base plus. There's a lot of recruiters that are 100% commission. You know, there's a lot of independent recruiters out there, but large global entity, um, base plus commission. And that's the way I like it.

Yeah. You know, I think it's pretty hard doing just commission.

Yeah. Well, you're, you, you, you eat what you kill and, um, there's lean years.

Yeah.

There's definitely been lean years in the, in the staffing and recruiting space. You know, I started with kind of the echoes of 2008, 2009 in recent memory. And certainly the first part of 2020 was not good for anybody who was 100% commission in our space.

And what have you found to be counterintuitive about sales? Because I'm sure you see a lot of less than effective behavior in your space.

Sure. I think, you know, activity of course, driving, you know, results. And those who are best typically are doing less activity, you know, is kind of the counterintuitive piece. So we'll talk ad nauseam about sales managers wanting you to update the CRM when, you know, that's a bit counterintuitive. You know, I think the other piece is that sales has to be a vehicle for personal success. Not just a professional success. And so many people are chasing that, you know, that image of professional success and forgetting that their job is simply an extension of who they are as a person. It's not the be-all and end-all. So if your job is not giving you personal satisfaction and isn't a driver for personal success, you need to look for a new career, a new job.

And have you found a way to balance that? Because it can be all-consuming, right? You got your phone with you all the time. You're in a business that isn't necessarily 9 to 5.

Right, right. And it rarely is. It's whenever the client needs you, West Coast to East Coast. And yeah, you have to, you know, there's gonna be times when you're running 100 miles an hour. There's gonna be times where You need to step out. I think one of the things for me is, you know, a lot of people will say fitness is important for them. I kind of have a standing tennis appointment during the week that breaks up the week. And, you know, I think in staffing you do grind quite a bit in your early part of your career, like most people in sales. And, you know, a mentor to help keep you grounded And bring you along with them to some of the higher-level activities that open up your mind to not just what your sales career could be, but how people who are older, wiser, better spend their personal time. You know, that, that's super, super valuable. And it was for me. I try to do the same for junior people.

And what did you learn from your mentors early on?

Well, Really how to quantify the cost of inaction was the main one. And, you know, what is the cost of doing nothing? And it's in just about every sales training book these days. But, you know, that was one that coming out of school, coming into a sales career wasn't intuitive to know how to do that. It's a huge thing that we use today. Actually, not a lot of people in staffing are using it enough. But certainly in the software space and others, that's a key one.

Yeah, because everybody thinks waiting is cautious. It's prudent, but it's a decision.

100%.

People don't think about that.

Well, and the cost of inaction in the staffing industry, it's—

Right. Because people don't wait.

Right?

They need a job. And, you know, people's career, that's the big, huge decision. You know, even though there might be many, an ocean of other jobs out there, it still takes time. You gotta ramp, you gotta find the right mojo and, and match. What do you see recruiters doing wrong who come to you for mentorship?

I think to doing dumb things quickly, as I've heard, doing dumb things faster, you know, thinking that everything's gonna be solved by making 80 phone calls versus 60 or 100 versus 80 and forgetting to press the flesh and build relationships with their, you know, not only their clients, but the candidates that are working for them.

Yeah.

You know, a lot of people that are junior in our space come from either the software sales space or come straight out of school with very little direction and are purely looking at the metrics as if I do this, then I'll get X rather than I need to hit this result by any means possible, not the activity metrics that are set. Set aside as and held up.

Yeah. And I think it's one of our mental flaws that we have as human beings, that when there's a large gap and you have it as a complex sale between initiation and reward, we, we don't know what to do. We fill it in and we have to have that activity spreadsheet and have that mentality. But that is distracting us from what we need to do.

Agreed. And I think, you know, another, another point, another thing that people often ask me is, you know, they're usually diametrically opposed to, you know, the candidate or the client in, in a negotiation. And it's not about, you know, starting here and coming to the middle. You know, I just reread Getting to Yes, which is an awesome kind of a classic sales book, but You know, as a recruiter and in any sales capacity, how do you build consensus and kind of take away the positional negotiating? Because if you start with, I'm looking for $80K, well, you know, we'll only pay $60K. You're, you're the best you can get is both parties are unhappy.

Yeah.

So how do you, how do you take away and change the positional negotiating to a way where you're working on the problem together?

And who usually is the bigger problem? Is it the candidate or is it the client?

The candidate. You know, people are unpredictable. Businesses, you know, typically there's a bit of a backstop. There's a contractual agreement. And with enough data, you can convince people, you know, the data piece and also the human element can convince, you know, most hiring managers And they want the position filled typically more than the resource wants to be in the seat.

Yeah. And how do you build up rapport with them? What's their drivers with the client? Not the client, the candidate.

The candidate, it's, it's a pure art. You know, some people, especially in technology, they just want to be heard. And, you know, recruiters sometimes They're salespeople, you know, they understand when a conversation is going nowhere. But sometimes that's what it takes. Sometimes you have to get a few nuggets out of a conversation and spend 20 minutes on the phone with somebody to make them feel good, make them feel heard. Sometimes we're more therapists than we are salespeople on the candidate side rather than the client side. And Fortunately, I don't do a ton of that anymore. My therapy days are a bit behind me, but, you know, it helps. And some of those people, you know, the best referrals I've gotten when I was on the candidate side were from people who my conversations went 30 minutes. I got maybe 1 or 2 nuggets, maybe 1 referral out of them, and they called me a year later because they understood that, you know, I wanted the best for them. Uh, even if though it wasn't fit today.

And most people talk about the position or the opportunity instead of asking about the client, the candidate, what they're up to. And I sold to engineers my whole life. No one wants to listen to them. So when someone does, you know, it's more like, you know, talking into a computer because they just want to share. Because no one listens to them. And I bet even the clients are that way too, because they're trying to solve a problem, they're up against a lot of resistance, and no one really hears them out.

And it's incredible what you can get from a conversation from those engineers and engineering leaders if you guide it in the right way.

Yeah.

Are there buyers? What's going on at the company, individuals' names to contact immediately, market info, which we live and die on in the staffing industry on what clients to target next. They have it all.

Yeah. And how do you, or what is your goal or what turns you on the most? Is it having a great year? Is it building up this network that you've been working on or is it building up this authority in the space?

I think because my career, so much of it was relationship-based recruiting and sales that, you know, now I have an opportunity to sell products and services that I didn't have before, you know, working for a much bigger firm and elevating the conversation from the director and VP level to the C-suite.

Yeah.

So that's really kind of the next step in evolution is, you know, talking about when you're selling to the C-suite, it's all about risk. It's less about the project that needs to get done. Now it's, now it's risk and risk of doing nothing, risk of making the wrong move. So being able to sell consulting services to the C-suite, Rather than just you have a body, you have a need. Let me get you a body. That's that's really what turns me on in sales right now.

And who's the right type of person to go into recruiting?

Well, all the classics. You know, my my first instincts go to some dark places. But you know, somebody right out of rehab.

Yeah.

It's not a bad shout, but somebody who's confident with their ability to build consensus, you know, somebody who's confident with their ability to be agreeable, you know, the gift of gab is great. You know, somebody who's analytical is great. You can build a sales career in staffing from just about anything as long as you have one fundamental that's gonna be good, and that's internal motivation. You have to be internally motivated by something that's not just, you know, a number or a dollar figure. And it can't be just from a hiring manager or a leader or your CEO's desires, you know, pumping you up at the Christmas party.

Yeah. And what is that for you? Is it the authority?

Is it the Success?

What's that inner drive for you?

Well, of course, I like nice things. So, you know, the dollar figure is nice. I wouldn't— I'd be lying if I said it wasn't. But yeah, I think, you know, I have aspirations of being on a board one day, a board in the staffing industry. And so really just growing up around people who are much more seasoned in their career, And seeing the types of things that they're talking about, investing in businesses through retirement rather than working through retirement, sitting on boards, you know, these types of things are just kind of speak to that desire that I have to be seen as an expert. And, you know, I was fortunate early enough on to see those people, see it happen to those people. And I went, I want that. How do I get there?

Yeah, good. And what, what do you have to say to people who are listening to this when a recruiter calls? Because it's been game-changing for my career, and I see on LinkedIn all day, oh, submitted 3,000 resumes, not one interview. And I'm like, you know why? You know, you're not even talking to anybody. You're just putting a piece of paper online and submitting it.

It's the most impersonal way to do hiring and it's broken. You know, the ATS systems have come in and keyword matched the resumes and are kicking out really good candidates, not to mention the competition for those jobs. You know, it's a digital world, it's a digital economy, but being hired and being employed is a human process. So talk to a recruiter, take the phone call. Don't just ask what the salary is in the first question, maybe the first 5 minutes, but actually credentialize the person you're talking to. How many of these types of places— this is what I do, this is what I might be looking for in the future. How many of these positions have you filled in the last year? How many of these positions has your firm filled in the last year? What are some of your customers? They'll probably tell you. And that's when you know you have somebody that You can work with and don't just work with one. We all have different books of business, you know, pick 2 or 3 that are consistent about their follow-up, give you feedback, seem to have good credentials and let them do your work for you. Let them get introductions to hiring managers for you.

Yeah, because I always looked at recruiters. Remember the show Entourage on HBO? It was, what was the agent's name?

Ari Shaffir.

Ari Gold.

Ari Gold. Ari Gold. Yes.

And I go, you got to find your Ari Gold, at least one of them in your career, because the A-level jobs, yeah, they post it on the web, but I've been the manager. I never looked at a single resume that came in through the website. It was like landscapers and babysitters. It wasn't people that were applicable to the job. To find the best people who know the best people, your network. And then your network is your Ari Gold, right?

Someone who's going to go to battle for you, right?

Not going to waste your time. It's going to be your filter. And do you find many hiring managers who don't get that?

All the time.

Really?

Oh yeah. You know, I saw a post on LinkedIn the other day that said, why are we paying a $30,000 fee? I just went on LinkedIn and spent 10 minutes doing a search for the keywords that I'm looking for and 100 profiles popped up. Oh, right, right.

Finding a list is not the hard part.

Those are engineering managers who think it is.

It's not the hard part. The hard part is finding an A player, an A player who's open to talking, an A player who's opening to making a change. That's a lot of work.

And that's where, you know, somebody who's in the industry who's got those contacts and a book of business of candidates, they're gonna be able to probably find somebody faster than even your HR department can. Because while HR departments are great at what they do, talent acquisition is spread so thin and none of them are specialists in functional areas. They're specialists in HR.

HR. Yeah. Yeah. You want your 401 details? Give them a call. You want to change your deductions?

Give them a call.

You want to hire somebody?

How would they know?

But, and what would you do differently if you had to do it all over again?

I would push my way into an enterprise sales capacity faster.

Really?

Yes, because I think so many people play in the SMB space for so long that it's a comfort zone or a mid-market. You know it, they're not being pulled up.

Yeah. And what do you like about enterprise?

The dynamism. You have to be on your toes every moment, but you're, it's less so, it's less transactional in the SMB space. There's one, there's a judge, jury, executioner and for the most part, You know, it's the CEO, it's the CFO.

It's their money. Yeah, very different.

You have to build consensus in the enterprise space with multiple stakeholders. And that's the type of consultative sale that I was good at from the beginning, but didn't know I was because I was playing in SMB, making decent money and didn't think I had the chops to sell enterprise.

And what was the pivot point that got you away from activity-based sales to more effective sales?

I think being forced by one of my mentors to walk in the door to a CTO's office and give a value prop to why, who didn't like us, you know, that was a pivotal moment. And it's, you know, we ended up getting some business from it down the road. It wasn't that day, but, you know, it kind of gave me the confidence that it's like, Okay, I can talk to a CTO. That's not, that wasn't as scary as I thought, you know, and if I could talk to this CTO who didn't like us very much, I could pretty much talk to anybody.

And you were really busying yourself with activity to not have to do that.

Right, right. Whether it was go bottom up and contact every manager and director, you know, that wasn't the problem. Those people, they're okay, were fine to work with us, but we're getting told no. And swimming upstream is very, very tough. You know, coming top down, it's also difficult, but it's a different challenge. One conversation can affect your entire sales cycle.

And that was an epiphany or?

That was an epiphany and that got me from Going from okay, I need to make eighty dials today to I need to connect with the right person and have the right message. And all my prep work changed to what's the right message for this person? Still calling. I'm still cold calling. But I know it gave me the confidence to say, I know if I get this person on the phone and this message lands, it's going to result in X.

Excellent. Hey, where can people go to connect and follow you?

LinkedIn. I'm serially online. Brock Mangus. I'm at Robert Half and probably the only one with the name Brock Mangus. So you are— connect with me on there.

And to become great at sales, the best way is to model somebody who already Has become good at sales and to hear other people who have become great at sales and the journey that they're going through, the false beliefs, the misnomers, the mindset issues, all of the stuff that gets in our way between where we are and the income that we want. Let's face it. We're in sales because we're money motivated. We're competitive. We want to be better every day than we were yesterday. And how do we do that? Just really read a book, listen to a podcast. That's good. Good start. I like it. But then you have to take action. And then you want both tactical and strategic ideas. You want mindset. You want strategy. You want to understand how companies buy. You want really deep content and examples, case studies, so that you can learn from other people's mistakes. That's what I'm here for. I'm here for you to learn from my mistakes. And boy, do I got a lot of them. So go to b2brevenue.com, sign up for the courses. There's 2 major ones. Start the Conversation, Get the Meeting fills up your pipeline. Gets rid of that problem of, oh, I don't have enough leads. I don't have enough meetings. It gets those conversations started with the people you want to talk to. Now, it's not about a pitch. It's about a conversation. Now, everybody thinks of conversations when you're talking or you're online at the same time or you're on the phone or Zoom at the same time. That's not a conversation. A conversation is when the client is talking about what they care about. What they're interested in. And that is what we call qualification, where we can sense where are they and how do we build up that curiosity into interest into urgency to get a deal. And these are skills that we need. They're lifelong skills that we need in sales. And then how do we get a deal closed? Yes, anyone can take an order. But what if they don't know how to get it done? You get a new account where you're trying to get a big change done internally. What are the issues? If you're not planning that through, odds are it's not going to get done no matter how much your champion wants it. So winning the complex sale solves that problem for you. Why waste all your time on these false positives? Or these no decisions because they don't pay very well. They pay 0.0. What you want to do is pay a lot. So sign up today. Invest in yourself. You're the asset in sales. Quit waiting for somebody else to approve it or train you. See if you can get it expensed. That should be your first sales Obstacle, your first sales challenge is how do you get your company to pay for it? Just go down, tell your manager you want to do this. I put a little example email in the show notes right below here. Just swipe up and take a look at that. And if they won't, you got to ask yourself, why won't you? Why won't you? Oh, it takes time. Well, you work all day. You're working wrong all day. Why not improve that? There's the time right there. Oh, the money. Brian, it's money. Well, you make more money if you become better in sales. And Start the Conversation pays for itself the first week because you're going to get at least 2 meetings just learning from the very basics.

of it.

Closing the Complex Sale will pay for itself 100 times over. Students in it tell me it's the best money they ever spent because they now have control over their deals. And it doesn't end. Some give up. Some give up after they win their first deal and they think they've got enough. No, come back, come back, keep going. You can get even bigger deals, more deals, faster deals. That's what it's all about. Sign up today. Put the excuses away. Yeah, excuses feel good, but they're expensive. Excuse— you know what the excuses are costing you? Tens, 50, maybe a couple hundred thousand dollars a year in lost income.

Really?

Yeah. The difference between where you are today— let's say you're making $150,000. Decent, decent income. But you know, there's other people in your industry making $300K, $400K, $500K. Well, how are you going to do that? You all think it's just about getting a better job, a better territory, a better manager. They can help. Go do that. Then what happens? It's still you there with those leads, trying to close those deals. And Do you have the game? Few people do. Everyone thinks they do. Why not prove it? The market tells you what you're worth.

Accept it.

Now become better. And the way to become better is to improve every day. Really make a daily routine of learning and developing. Because it's not at the knowledge level. You have to become unconsciously competent at these skills, which takes time, repetition, and emotion. And I show you how to do it, how I did it, how I've taught hundreds of people to do it. But you have to want to because I can't force you. A lot of people wish I could. So do I, but I can't. So sign up today.

We'll see you next time.