HOW TO MAKE YOUR NETWORK INCREASE YOUR NET WORTH IN B2B SALES

Hey, before we get into the interview, I want to make sure you're aware of our other podcasts, the Sales Questions, Brutally Honest Answers show, which is a very quick, under 5 minutes in most cases, sometimes just a few minutes where I answer your questions. You can just send me any question to my LinkedIn profile, Brian G. Burns, and I'll put it in the queue to answer. Also, the Sales Leadership Show. If you're looking to get into sales leadership or you want to hear from the world's best sales leaders, that's where I interview them. Check it out, the Sales Leadership Show. Also at b2brevenue.com, you can learn all about all the courses. Links are in the show notes below, as well as our link to our partners over at brevitypitch.com, the fastest, easiest way to become great at sales and practice.

Before it's showtime.

Here we go.

Hey, Josh, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Yeah, I'd love to. Like most sales professionals, I've— I met a pretty girl and fell into enterprise sales about 25 years ago, and I've loved it ever since. In all seriousness, her, her, her and my path crossed and I fell into this, this business and I've loved every minute of it. I've had some amazing mentors all along the way and, and I've just really enjoyed being in sales. Like, it's just fun to meet people and greet people and get to know people.

So was this a hiring manager or a girlfriend or?

So I had a girlfriend and her dad was the chief sales and marketing officer of a software company. Oh, he saw how hard I was working in another sales job. He's like, I think, I think I could use you. And I was scared to death, but it worked out. Yeah.

And what do you like about it?

You know, again, going back to the people, I absolutely just love to hear people's stories, right? So when I go in, I sell specifically to insurance carriers. I'll ask, People like how did you fall into this business? And everybody has a story when it comes to insurance. And I've never been the seller that walks in and says, oh, you you have you know golf gear around. You must be a golfer. But I did catch myself doing it one time. I walked into this this carrier and the CEO had his name MD. up on the wall. And I said, are you a doctor? He said, I was. He said, but my dad started this company and I came and I'm finishing it now and kicking and screaming and I love it every minute of it.

So why didn't you focus on pitching what you sell?

So what we sell today is it's always been customer experience, right? So insurance is historically risk averse, right? And they don't make a lot of decisions when it comes to technology and continuing to move those forward. Not all companies do. So what we do is we come in and help them with their digital transformation so that it's the Amazonian approach to insurance as opposed to paper, right? So there's still a lot of paper in this business.

And what do you run up against most? Is it the change of going through? Yeah.

Yeah, it boils down to change. So you'll walk in and insurance companies in the insurance business, I'm so glad I fell into it because I have a lot of fun. But when you're, when you're at the insurance carrier, we've always done it this way is one of those things that you got to get around. And you only do that by building a lot of trust with the people that you're selling to.

Yeah, not pushing.

Nope, they don't like that.

And I also got to imagine because I've had a lot of people in my course where it's like the end users don't want to change, but the owner wants to change.

Yeah, yeah. That's a, that's an interesting look at it because in an insurance company, you hear that a lot, right? The CEO is getting pressure from the people they buy insurance. You know, we need that. We need you to continue to make money.

Yeah.

The 30 people that work for he or she have been there for a decade, 2 decades. I've walked into mutual insurance companies in the Midwest and how long have you been here? 46 years. Wow. That's super impressive, right? And you have a 46-year career, you're used to doing things your way, you don't necessarily vote to change. So it's a, it's a lot of fun to have those conversations.

How do you work them through that process?

You know, it's, it doesn't matter if it's a small company or a large company, it's, it's a lot of trust building and consensus, right? So that person that's been doing their job for 46 years has to trust that what I'm bringing to the table is gonna solve a lot of their problems. They have to rethink and reimagine the way they do business. They can do more or less, right? So it's not just the one person that trust has to go across a whole host of people in an organization.

And have you run up against somebody who's been there that on the 47th year, they do know they're not gonna do anything different?

Yeah, that's, uh, that happens quite often, uh, in our job. But again, it goes back to they have to trust me, right? And I have to trust them. So if they say they're going to do something, um, I'm going to hold them to it, right? So I'm going to change because when you're in a group of people and you're the sole person that's not willing to change, sometimes you say you're going to, and that trust kind of goes both ways, right? So you got to get them to to live up to the word, right? You said you were going to do these things, and this is the positive outcomes that we're going to drive based on the change.

And what's kept you in this space? Because I got to imagine there's lots of spaces to go to, right?

Yeah, there is. Um, you know what it comes down to is the thing about insurance is most people hate paying their premiums every single month until a tree falls on their house. and they need it. So I have just committed to the fact that I'm in an industry that protects what matters the most, right? So your home, your auto, sometimes the biggest asset that you own. Um, bad things happen, hurricanes happen, wildfires happen, and I help the insurance industry continue to move forward, right? So I feel, I feel obligated to help in that way. Um, And I just love it, like the vernacular, the way things change, you know, everybody getting upset about the regulations that are coming down the pipe and we're all in it together as a community. So I love the insurance community as a whole.

And do you get much inbound or is it all outbound?

No, no. I've been in those situations before where you're more of an order taker, but this is selling, right? So the company that I'm working with now, was founded in the UK and I was the first US employee. So we didn't have any market share and it's like, who do we attack? Who do we go after? Who do we let know we're out here and the problems that we're solving? So not much on the inbound. We get a lot of, a lot of folks on our website saying, hey, we would like to sell you something, but not necessarily.

That's the wrong kind of inbound. Yeah.

Yeah, it's the wrong kind of stuff. Partnerships. But, you Even me and my business partner, we've really just decided that we're gonna attack it in a couple of different facets that has worked well with us as we build other businesses.

So how do you go about that being the first in the country?

Yeah.

Because who knows how home office, they look at America as this big opportunity.

It is a big opportunity. So Being in the space, I met that pretty girl who still to this day is the best sell of my life, 25 years ago. So being in the space, you build a reputation and hopefully the reputation I built has been strong. So I've really reached out to people that I've known throughout my career that have been customers and just asked them, will you listen to this pitch? Will you, will you tell me where I'm missing the boat? Will you Give me ideas on how to make the business stronger. And because I've built that trust with them, absolutely, we'll give you time, Josh. And sometimes those turn into stop everything, call our CIO, talk to him about this because we really need what you're doing. And other times I just get amazing feedback from people that I've worked with in the past to continue to move it forward. And insurance, if you've ever bought insurance, the insurance agent, if he was or she was any good, they asked you for a referral. Right. And I do a lot of that. So again, kind of going back to the community aspect of it, solving problems for large association groups and things like that that are competing with, you know, the big boys in the industry has really, really done well.

So it's a tough space though, isn't it? I've got a friend who bought it like an Allstate franchise. Wasn't too happy with it. I don't know why.

I don't know.

Yeah, yeah, it's a, it's a tough business. I mean, when you look at insurance as a whole, you've got these kind of captives, like Allstate is more of a captive, State Farm, things like that. And then the independent space, and I've worked in both, and it really just depends, right? So risk appetites change all the time as well. So if you're in California, you've heard a lot about companies that are pulling out because of wildfire losses. And here in Florida, people are pulling out because of hurricane losses. And it's a very cyclical business. And sometimes people do get caught up in, hey, you bought this, just renew all the policies that you can, but we're not writing new business in a state. And it's really kind of mandated by the company.

But it—

there's still opportunity, right? There's still opportunities that are out there to continue to grow it. I think insurance, again, it's kind of gotten a little bit of a bad rap because people are like, I have to buy this thing. I'm going through it right now. My son's getting ready to turn 16 and I'm going, do you really need a driver's license? Because this is expensive. But I know that it will make me whole at the end of the day. Right. So until you need it, it's an expense. It's an expense. That's all it is.

So, and what part of the sales process do you think you're best at?

So for me, it's discovery is a never-ending process, right? So as you're building consensus, I may find out that, you know, Jane has one thing in her mind and John has one thing in their mind. I'm trying to figure out like where the politics are and everything else. So really discovery starts at the very beginning, goes all the way to the point of closing the deal for me. Um, and I just love to ask questions. I like to ask lots and lots of questions. Why? What if? Um, and those, those things like, what are the biggest challenges that you're gonna solve? Starts there and then it ends up, what if you don't solve those? What happens to your team? Right? And really digging into that discovery process is what I enjoy the most.

And do you start at the owner or is it—

It really just depends, right? So sometimes you get relegated to non-decision makers, but people that are important to the project itself, right? I don't know that I've very often ever sold a deal where I didn't have C-level buy-in, right? And support. But Yeah, it's really all over the board. So some of these smaller companies that we work with, the CEO might also be the chief claims officer, right? So they're just a small company. In other cases, they're very, very siloed, right? So you've got to, you've got to build that consensus across 4 or 5 different departments.

And do the deals get competitive fast? Do they like what you see? And then thanks for introducing us to this category. Who do you compete against? And they bring in 2 others.

Yeah, a lot of times what we, uh, what we compete against is the back office software providers, right? So they do a really good job. And I've spent 10 years of my career selling kind of the rates, rules, forms engines behind the scenes. And historically, they're really good at that. But what they're not good at is the experience outside of the 4 walls of the carrier. So As an example, buy something on Amazon today. Jeff Bezos is going to tell me 6 times where that is all along the way. But think of it from an insurance company perspective. They don't do a really good job necessarily of saying, hey, there is a hurricane bearing down on your exact location. Here are the 10 things that you need to know and be aware of in the event it comes towards you. And we're going to keep you updated all along the way. Doesn't happen necessarily, or there's a fire or there's something going on. They, uh, they're very reactionary, right? And our whole goal is to be more proactive. So we compete against the incumbents that do the rates, rules, and forms. And a lot of times we compete against Joe down the street who has web development. He's a website builder. Yeah, website builder. And a website isn't necessarily what customers today want. Or any of their financial, you know, relationships.

Is there a way to position it as a revenue generator?

You know, yes. So that's one of the things I talk a lot about with the C-level folks, right? A lot of people are shopping because insurance continues to get expensive. I won't bore you with all the details, but the reinsurance market, so insurance for insurance carriers, continues to climb, and that's why our rates are continuing to climb. Well, people are shopping, and if you don't have a presence out there that says, hey, we're a modern insurance company, you're going to lose out on those at-bats. So absolutely, it's a revenue-generating conversation.

And is that how you justify the cost?

So that's one of the ways. Um, other ways we justify the cost too is just operational efficiencies, right? So working with a carrier right now, and the last time a large hurricane hit, they took all of their inbound with what the industry calls FNL, or first notice of loss, through email. No mobile app, no anything. And we're going to bring them to the forefront of that. You know, Mr. Customer, Mrs. Customer, take a picture of your house. We'll have a claims adjuster out there within 24 hours to take care of you, as opposed to We just got 50,000 emails. What, what's the most important, right? So being able to really kind of modernize that is very helpful. So operational efficiency is another area that we really, really hone in on. And then optimizing workflow, right? So if I'm an agent, which I have been an agent, it was a pretty hard job actually. Had a carrier come in and said, hey, we're gonna pay 18% commission. On BOP policies. And I was so young in my career, I thought I was gonna be a millionaire off of selling BOP policies. I didn't realize it was like $200 in commission, but it is what it is. That was a learning experience for me. But I never wrote any business with them. I actually wrote business with a carrier that paid way less because they made it easy for me to write the business. They didn't ask me 1,000 questions, they asked me 7, and then I could move on to the next. So that's another way we really kind of generate revenue is we help these carriers become the carrier of choice, right? That's the carrier I want to do business with because they're the easiest and they're the fastest.

Reduce friction.

Absolutely.

Yeah. And how about, do you ever get pushback because some of the people in the agency or the company view this as taking their job or reducing their value?

You know, not yet in this role. I think what people are excited about when I'm talking to them, those are 2 of my big questions, right? One, when agents think this is the carrier that I want to do most of my business with, do they think of you? Generally, the answer is no. When your policyholders like say they will never shop? Is it because you provide them amazing experiences?

Lazy.

No. So really getting into that and digging into that across all of the departments. I don't have anybody necessarily kicking and screaming and coming along the way. They get pretty excited about it once they see what we're able to do.

And where do deals get stuck or slow down or stall?

Again, I'm selling a platform to an industry that's very risk-averse, and it's really all over the board. Sometimes they have to rely on outside legal counsel as an example because they don't have a general counsel internally. So that process can slow us down. Catastrophes happen, right? So I might be working with somebody that's in Florida and hurricane just hit.

Well, I am I don't have control over that.

I have no control over that. So that could, that could slow us down, things like that. But a lot of times when we're looking at just a standard sales process, I think if you talk to anybody that really sold insurance technology, you're looking at a 6 to 12 month sales cycle.

It's that long?

Yes, sir.

How big was the deal?

Longest sales cycle in my career was 7 years, Brian.

7 years.

It was. It's a true story.

Yeah. Was it worth it?

It was.

Was it?

Yeah. The short version of the story, I went to work for a friend of mine and I just met this amazing crew of people out of Tuscaloosa, Alabama. And the guy that ran implementation said, and I don't think he would take offense if he saw this, He's not a sales guy because, hey, I've been working this deal with this company in Hawaii. He had been talking to like a business analyst. So I went through 3 CIOs, 2 CEOs, and 1 CFO over 7 years. And I told Chris, his name is Chris, when he gave me that lead, I said, I'll close this deal for you.

Yeah.

I was committed to it. So 7 years later, we got it closed. But But definitely on island time in Hawaii, we'll say that.

That's true.

But it was definitely worth it. I learned a lot during that period and it was a great win for the company.

And when you look at a deal, what are the signals that it's a real deal versus what I call a goat rodeo where it's just gonna be a lot of work and they're not gonna buy anything and they're gonna torture you for 7 years?

Yeah, it's that, it's that executive level commitment. We know we have a problem, Josh. Work with my team so we can figure this out. Yeah.

And do they look a certain way? Is it age? Is it ownership? Is it—

No, it really is all over the board. You know, I work with startup technology companies that are MGAs and they're selling a product. I work with, you know, insurance companies that have been around for 100 years that are looking to reimagine themselves. So You'll hear a lot in our space about digital transformation and it's one of the hot topics and has been for a year or two. It's just slow sometimes to come and be adopted.

And how do you edge out your competitors?

Because, yeah, you're probably not the only people who do this, right? Yeah, there's a ton of people that do it. So if I'm competing against Somebody just doesn't matter who. That's a little bit easier because it's the platform that we created was really created out of frustration from someone that was struggling inside of an insurance carrier, our chief product officer. And he goes, I can, I can build something that would be better and then we could really sit on top of these older systems. So he did that. And when I go in, even at the highest level, you know, I can show some of the configuration. There's little things like, hey, do you want to put first name last and last name first? Can you do that in your current system? No, that's a $100,000 statement of work. Watch this. Click, click, click. Done. I need to have one of those, right? So the technology is pretty amazing. And our Our team is just unbelievable. They're just so good. So, yeah, I think, I think that's kind of my answer, Brian.

And do you have the whole North America as a territory or US?

All of North America. Yeah. But if anybody's listening in Mexico City and they have an insurance company, I'll take the phone call.

Yeah. How do you prioritize? Because there's a lot of companies in the US, aren't there?

Yeah. So the way the insurance space is kind of broken down, As analysts look at it, um, there's Tier 1 carriers, like the, the big ones, right, that are just name brands. Everybody sees their commercials, they're Tier 1s, and it goes down to Tier 5s. So, you know, I prioritize first by kind of kicking out the bigger ones because they have a team of 1,000 people that do what we do internally.

Yeah.

So that kind of narrows our focus to the smaller insurers. And then a lot of times what it boils down to is like, who, who can I reach out to in my network that can help me have this conversation? Who can I help? Right? And I go in with that mentality at every deal. Can I help them solve a problem? And if I can, great. If I can't, I'm moving on.

So there's a compounding effect in your business because it's a relationship business.

It is. It's 100% relationship business, right?

Because It all looks the same to everybody. Nobody reads the policies, right? They just—

I've had, I've had some pretty amazing mentors in my life, and both of them told me early in my career, do you have an insurance policy? I do. Read it, come back and ask questions. And I did. And this was before, even before I was an agent. I was like, I don't know what any of this stuff means. What is subrogation? Okay. No clue. But yeah, and I'll tell people that have worked for me and with me in the past, like, do you have an insurance policy? Read it.

Yeah.

Ask lots of questions. So it can get, it's a very regulated space as well. 50 states, 50 different rules.

Really?

Yeah. Yeah. So if you are a company that works in 2 states, you probably have 2 different sets of rules. If you're on all 50, you have 50. different sets of rules.

And how big is your network? How many people know who you are?

I think everybody knows who I am, Ryan. That's not—

Taylor Swift's here. She needs it.

Yeah, right. You know, that's, that's a hard one for me to quantify. You know, after 25 years, there's— I've just met so many people, some in passing and some, you know, you get invited to their weddings and you just build great friendships. But It always makes me feel good. Me and, me and a friend, Neil, we worked for the same company at one point, the company I work with now. And we're standing in the booth at this massive trade show. There's like 10,000 insurance people that just go to Las Vegas to this one particular show. And people are coming by and Neil and I both are just like, you know that person, you know that person, you know that person. And we've just been doing it for so long. But I like to think some of it comes down to the fact that I treat people right, right? I stand by my word, make the companies that I work with stand by their word as well and build that trust.

There's a lot of people don't value that on the sales side. I think on the customer side they value it, but on the sales side, it's transactional.

It is. It is. So again, early in my career, I learned that the value of trust, right? So, um, after I left working for my father-in-law, 3 or 4 years later, I had an agent in Texas call me. I had a new phone number and it's the flip phone, so I didn't like have his number in there and it was a 512 number. And he called me up and said, Josh, I know you tried to sell me this system a while back, but if I choose to move forward with this company, is this the right decision for my business. I was like, hey man, how have you been? Let's start there, right? So building that trust even long term, I no longer work for the organization, but the fact that he called me and said, is this the right thing to do for my business, meant the world to me. There's been other situations too. And, you know, just working through my network, the company that I left before I came here, I loved what I was doing there. But this opportunity was, I was passionate about it because I used to be an agent. And a couple of weeks before I left, I called my friend and I said, hey, I'm getting ready to send you this contract. But I also just gave my 2 weeks notice. He's like, man, the platform's awesome. I love you, Josh and all, but I just need the platform, dude. I trust you. It's good stuff. They're gonna take care of me, right? I'm like, yeah, they're absolutely gonna take care of you. And he was pretty pleased. So, but building that trust, like I had to tell them before I left that. I was leaving.

So, and how do you keep that network alive so they remember you?

Lots of phone calls, lots of text messages, lots of happy birthdays. You know, you get to know people, you get to know, you know, some of the things that are important to them. Like I just mentioned, I'm a Cincinnati Bengals fan through and through. He's a Buffalo Bills fan through and through. So I poke and prod him on a Sunday, like, We're gonna beat you. Then, you know, our quarterback goes down, but that's okay, you know. So make it, I make it very personal, Ryan. I make it very personal.

And a lot of people don't, right? You don't see that. People look at that as gimmicky as opposed to genuine.

Yeah, they really do. I think the, I like to think that The 2 primary mentors in my life that I've had the opportunity to work with, they really beat that into me, right? Be a man of your word. And, um, this is Jeff and Terry. Both are named— last name Brown, but no relation. Um, I've learned so much from them over the years. And that trust building— people come to me all the time and say, hey, should I, should I take this job? Josh. Yeah, let's talk through it together, right? Like, um, and I value it, the human experience, which is what I'm excited about doing what I'm doing, right? Making insurance humanized. Um, I value that probably more than I do just the chase, right? Um, I love the selling, but I love the relationships more.

And it makes the job easier.

Yes. It does. Once people open up to you and you open up to them, right? It's a 2-way street. I can't just be like, oh, trust me, trust me, trust me without giving them my trust.

It's not trust.

It's not trust, right? The definition of it, right? Um, yeah, you, you, you get a better sense of what somebody is trying to accomplish. Like, how can I make this guy that I just really, really like, how can I make him a hero? This girl, you know, she just She just experienced a loss in her, in her family. Like, I ain't calling her and beating her up over a contract for 2 months. Like, that ain't fair. She got enough going on. I'm not gonna be that guy, right? I sell the way I like to be sold to, Brian.

And what does trust mean to you?

It means a couple of things, but I think day in and day out is I wanna be impeccable with my word. If I tell you I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it, whether that's business or friends or family. If I say I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it. Sometimes my kids don't like that. Like, I'm going to turn your phone off, but that's okay. They trust that I'm gonna do it.

Well, you're also showing more interest in them as a person instead of a client.

That's right.

That's very different than most salespeople.

Yeah, I, looking back at my career, again, I've been really blessed with some amazing customers. But of those amazing customers, I got some awesome friends out of the deal. Awesome friends and people that I've worked with as well, right? Just made amazing friends over the career that I've been blessed to be a part of.

Well, hey, Josh, really appreciate your time today. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

Yeah, you can go out to our website, managemind.com. Find me on LinkedIn, Josh Hall. There's a bunch of Josh Halls. Just scroll until you see one with a big yellow background because that's our colors. And I'd love to connect with you.

And to become great at sales, The best way is to model somebody who already has become good at sales and to hear other people who have become great at sales and the journey that they're going through, the false beliefs, the misnomers, the mindset issues, all of the stuff that gets in our way between where we are and the income that we want. Let's face it, we're in sales because we're money motivated. We're competitive. We want to be better every day than we were yesterday. And how do we do that? Just really, you know, read a book, listen to a podcast. That's good. Good start. I like it. But then you have to take action. And then you want both tactical and strategic ideas. You want mindset. You want strategy. You want to understand how companies buy. You want really deep content and examples, case studies, so that you can learn from other people's mistakes. That's what I'm here for. I'm here for you to learn from my mistakes. And boy, do I got a lot of them. So go to b2brevenue.com, sign up for the courses. There's 2 major ones. Start the conversation, get the meeting, fills up your pipeline, gets rid of that problem of, oh, I don't have enough leads, I don't have enough meetings. It gets those conversations started with the people you want to talk to. Now, it's not about a pitch, it's about a conversation. Now, everybody thinks of conversations when you're talking or you're online at the same time or you're on the phone Or Zoom at the same time. That's not a conversation. A conversation's when the client is talking about what they care about, what they're interested in. And that is what we call qualification, where we can sense where are they and how do we build up that curiosity into interest, into urgency to get a deal. And these are skills that we need. They're lifelong skills. skills that we need in sales. And then how do we get a deal closed? Yes, anyone can take an order, but what if they don't know how to get it done? You got a new account where you're trying to get a big change done internally. What are the issues? If you're not planning that through, odds are it's not going to get done no matter how much your champion wants it. So Winning the Complex Sale solves that problem. Problem for you. Why waste all your time on these false positives or these no decisions? Because they don't pay very well. They pay 0.0. What you want to do is pay a lot. So sign up today. Invest in yourself. You're the asset in sales. Quit waiting for somebody else to approve it or train you. See if you can get it expensed. That should be your first sales obstacle. Your first sales challenge is how do you get your company to pay for it? Just go down, tell your manager you want to do this. I put a little, um, example email in the show notes right below here. Just swipe up and take a look at that. And if they won't, you got to ask yourself, why won't you? Why won't you? Oh, it takes time. Well, you work all day. You're working wrong all day. Why not improve that? There's the time right there. Oh, the money, Brian. It's money. Well, you make more money if you become better in sales. And Start the Conversation pays for itself the first week because you're going to get at At least 2 meetings just learning from the very basics of it. Closing the Complex Sale will pay for itself 100 times over. Students in it tell me it's the best money they ever spent because they now have control over their deals. And it doesn't end.

Some give up.

Some give up after they win their first deal and they think they've got enough. No, come back. Come back. Keep going. You can get even bigger deals. More deals, faster deals. That's what it's all about. Sign up today. Put the excuses away. Yeah, excuses feel good, but they're expensive.

Excuse—

you know what the excuses are costing you? Tens, 50, maybe a couple hundred thousand dollars a year in lost income. Really?

Yeah.

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