HOW TO SELL THE HARDEST OF THE HARD AND STILL WIN

I talk a lot about us being professional communicators, that it is our job to understand the client and have the client feel that we understand them, that we get them. And today's guest has a unique background in, uh, growing up in this type of situation where he was kind of forced Into empathy. Slow down the communication. I, I don't want to spoil the, the suspense here, but it's a, a great example, probably not repeatable by most people. But if you kind of get it, if you kind of say, okay, why don't I just slow down my communication? Why don't I really check in with my client during the conversation to ask, did I get that right? Let me repeat that back to you. What I heard was— These little moments of clarity, because often it's the first time we're speaking to that person, or it might have been a while since we spoke with that person. We have to get onto the same wavelength, the same bandwidth, so that we understand and can build trust. Because that's why we have salespeople, you know, because if it's just passing information, we can have videos and content to do that, but we still need salespeople. Why? Because the client doesn't want to read all the content. Wants to talk with somebody, wants to be interactive. And even I have this challenge with the courses. Everybody wants to talk about their situation before they buy the course, and I get it. But the courses, uh, they're kind of priced for self-selection. So I try and give you as much content as possible, and I do have somebody on the team available for calls. And people rarely show up with questions. They really want to talk with somebody, and I get it. But I've tried to find a solution for it that, you know, can I charge for that just to cover the cost? Do I build it into the cost of the course? Is that fair to everybody? Does that, you know, push other people out who are more decisive?

I don't know.

I'm still figuring it out. But today, I think you're going to get a great understanding of that communication, that responsibility for it. And he both has something that he grew up with, and now that he has a family, has also a lot of motives to become good at communication. Because that's what we are. That's what sales is, is communication. And we tend to think that the client Knows what they want. They tend to think that they know what they want. And I'm sure you've all gone through this. I tell a story about me buying a TV one time. I bought it online and watched the videos on YouTube, and I got the TV, and honestly, I was disappointed in the quality of it. In the use that I had for it, I was disappointed. It wasn't awful, but you spend a ton of money and now you have it and it's kind of too big to return and you're like, ah, okay, it's not bad enough to do anything about it, so I'll suffer with it until it breaks 4 or 5 years later. But then I didn't make that mistake. I go into the store and I go, I really want to see the differences between these things. And at first glance, The pedestrian doesn't really see the difference. I found this great salesperson found me in the store and asked me some great questions. How much light is the room? What do you watch? Is it movies? Is it sports? How close are you to the TV? What's important to you? And he showed me the differences, and I ended up spending a whole lot more But I was so much happier. The money was worth it. And it really wasn't about money because most people just don't want to waste money. Most people are willing to buy and spend for quality and the best, but they have to understand the distinctions. Not just that it's more expensive because we think, oh, that's, that's for dumb people. No, it's for the people that value that. Let's get into this interview. I think you'll get a lot out of it.

Hey, James, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Yes, sir. So, born and raised in Los Angeles, California, found my way to Utah by chance and lived in Utah for the past 13 years. I call them 13 winters. I count them in winters because they're so cold. Married with five kids.

Oh boy!

Two pit bulls, and and we're just loving life. Been in software sales for about fourteen years now, and worked at startup companies that have succeeded, and I've helped grow sales channels. Some that have failed, worked at mid-sized companies, and some of the big of the bigs out there. So the whole gamut.

Well, with five kids, I don't have to ask your why.

Yeah, exactly.

You know, every day.

Yes, sir.

And what got you into software or sales in general?

Yeah. So sales has always kind of been a knack, even in Los Angeles, different type of sales. I was aligned to, you know, selling tickets to high-end concierge hotelleries in and around the Los Angeles area for concerts, sports plays, whenever they'd have a house guest come in. So that was kind of the early days relationship building. And hustle, if you will. And then coming to Utah, I actually decided, you know, I'm gonna study international finance and quickly I realized that I didn't love finance.

All the glamour.

Right. And at a college fair, there was a gentleman that, you know, was representing a startup company He hired me almost on the spot, which, you know, was questionable now these many years later. And that was my first foot in the door. They had a software that helped with in-house marketing agencies doing online marketing. And that was my foot in the door 14 years ago. And one thing has led to the other and it's just been a tremendous career for me and been able to do so many wonderful things as a family financially because it's unlocked so many of those financial doors for us.

Sure. And what did you like about it?

So tech in general?

Selling, selling the technology.

Yeah. So, you know what I like most about selling is that you're not selling if you actually are, we get this kind of negative stigma sometimes for people that are outsiders looking in, you know, sales reps, some of them are, you know, somewhat could have some questionable practices in order to close a deal, which gives a black eye to, you know, some of the other folks in the profession that have some high integrity. And the one thing that I love about sales is that I love people. Everybody has a story. And the more you understand their story, the more they want to talk to you and let you in and the more they tell you their problems and their challenges in their personal life and in their home and in their work life. And when you find out what those challenges are, you kind of see what your product or service could do to supplement that or help them. And that's when you get that aha moment where it's not sales, the deals close by themselves. And W-2 gets filled up and the President's Club gets filled up if you're really thinking about serving other people and their needs.

And did somebody teach you that or was it something you developed on your own? Was it innate?

You know, a little of all of the above. So, fundamentally, you know, the golden rule, do unto others as you'd have them do unto you, is the practice that I subscribe to. And so just by nature of that, and like from situationally growing up in the situations and places that, that I grew up, I, I think it exposed me to a lot of things that made me realize that empathy is really important, and it makes me more empathetic towards certain other people's situations. And so I think my situation or my environment. It helps me gravitate towards that. My sister's deaf and blind in one eye, and she's just tremendous. She's, she's an incredible individual. She's achieved so many great successes in her life as an international elite gymnast. I know this interview isn't about her.

Oh, wait, she's joining us.

Yeah, right. Yeah, right. She was on UCLA's gymnastics team and won a national championship. All the doctors said she couldn't do it. All these different things. I bring that up because, you know, seeing her situation makes me not complain about all of the faculties that I have and I was born with and all these different things. But also body language, you know, I speak sign language because just growing up we did it in the home and in sales. I believe that that is an innate gift. We're taught to read people's pauses and, you know, gasps and all of those different things. And I think through living with someone who body language is everything of how they communicate, it's transitioned over into me being able to understand when to wait, when to not talk, when, you know. And so that helps with the empathy and kind of getting into what's really going on in someone's life. portion of that.

Well, it's certainly a unique case because it's rare, you know. Sure. But it forces you to listen.

It does. It does. It really does. So listening, listening's really huge. The, the other component you, you asked was, I taught these things and the answer is absolutely. I've had mentors In my career that I just, I watch like a hawk and I see how they interact with other folks and I hear the questions they're asking to open up dialogue. And, you know, I don't think that came always natural. I think that it's through a lot of years of being in the trenches and getting the experience of understanding if I ask it this way, someone's gonna respond this way and it's gonna You know, fight or flight is gonna kick in, you know. So, so yeah, mentorship has been a wonderful thing that I've had some good mentors in my career that have taught me some important things.

And how did you pick them? Were they like the top rep? Were they the people in the desk next to you? Were they having success that you wanted?

Good question. Good question. So I'm a student of the game, I would say. And I think everyone in their own light, their own profession, I think of, you know, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, these people were watching film, they were in the gym longer and, you know, than anyone else. And a lot of people know their stats, the stats of all these greats out there, but they don't know their own stats in their own profession, which always baffled me. And so, you know, going and looking for the people that were top on the totem pole and asking them questions, what are the best practices, was always, is always part of my game even today, even today. But aligning to folks that are actually have like positive influence in the company and also on revenue has been something that I've gravitated towards. And, you know, it's sure you pick your mentor, but they have to pick you too, you know.

If you want them to spend time with you.

Correct.

Because you can just observe people.

You can, you absolutely can.

Right.

You absolutely can. And in fact, I do plenty of that. I observe you and I watch your posts on LinkedIn and you have all the right elements that make it You know, that draw people in. You've got the comic relief, you've got the real nuggets of wisdom, you've got the inspiration, you've got all of the things that keep us baited. And I, you know, having you as a mentor, you don't even know that you're my mentor, you know. So you're absolutely right.

I like that mindset of student of the game because I think too many people in sales get a little bit of success and they think they've arrived. And don't need to practice, don't need to study, don't need to think, don't need to plan, don't need to review because they're already great.

Sure.

Does that work in any other profession, any other sport, any other activity that's a performance?

Not at all. Not at all. You know, and I've actually, you know, ego gets involved sometimes when you have a great memory.

That is what's involved. in the way because your subconscious is going, look at that W-2.

For sure. Exactly.

We're gold. Why do you want to practice?

100%. And, and, and you kind of sit on your laurels a little bit.

I've been there. Yeah.

And again, experience is one of the best teachers, I think, you know, and, and all of a sudden your pipeline dips and now you're chasing everybody else. And you're not as planned and prepped, things don't go as well as they were, your luck all of a sudden changes. It's funny how your luck changes. And really, you realize that your luck is all based on the amount of preparation and work and, you know, time that you're actually putting into your craft. That's it.

What have you seen that really differentiates those reps that you view as mentors versus the good reps? You know, the ones that make their number, they go to club, but they're not blowing it out.

Sure. So I think there's a couple of components and, you know, from a rep perspective, I think it would be the same, you know, in leadership now. I did the transition, you know, into leadership and that was an interesting journey. That's a whole nother separate interview, I'm sure. But like, seeing it through both lenses, I think it's the same thing. I would say it's the same thing. The good are those that look at their number and they say, okay, that's my number, that's what I'm getting at kind of a thing. But they generally, a lot of times you run the risk of being a 90 percenter, you know. And those that are the great, like table stakes is your number, your quota. That's like, that's like going to happen. But they see their— even though they're employed by a company, they see it as they're the owner of a franchise. And the company will give them some branding, they'll give them some swag, they'll give them some marketing, you know, they'll bring them some leads. But they don't just say this is all. They're the ones that actually go out there and they build their own army of tools and things in order to supplement those leads that come in. They go out and prospect and use their network and get involved in the community and meet new people that have influence over other companies. You know, these are the people and those are the strategies that I think separate the good from the great, are those that see themselves as an owner of a franchise and they want their franchise to be the best-producing franchise out of all the other franchises there.

Yeah, I call it salespreneur. But that's pretty much a perfect characterization of it because with the 90 percenters, it's always going to be my territory, my comp plan, the deal slipped.

For sure. For sure. And the other guys are like, deal slipped, risk mitigation. I have these other 3 deals that I could plug in. You know, because I can't let my franchise be underproducing, right?

Because when you go and talk to that person about your deal that slips and they go, what account? And they get online and they go, I got 3 people that can get us to the CEO. Let's make some calls for sure, right?

It's their mindset. They're problem solving before they— before you ask them what happened here, deal slipped, they're like, Deal slipped. However, I've got another angle that I'm going to take through this partner who's going to backchannel this information. Absolutely, 100%. Salespreneur, I love that.

Point raised. It's powerful because it gets you away from the victimization of being an employee.

100%.

Because even in the most benevolent company, Sales is still viewed as if you produce, congratulations. If you don't produce, sayonara, right? It's, or find something else within the company to do because we need, without revenue, there's no margin, no mission.

That's right. That is right. Yeah. When you, if you miss one quarter, you know, and you're looking like you're gonna miss the second quarter, you better polish up your resume.

And I've also noticed anecdotally that the people with large families tend to do very well in sales.

There's no other choice. There's no other choice. Got a lot of mouths to feed, a lot of colleges to pay for, you know.

Yeah. You know, if you were single and whatever, right, that the have-to isn't there.

It's true. That is true. The have-to isn't there. And there are those anomalies though that really surprised me. And, you know, In interview questions, when you're trying to interview, you're, you know, part of my process is, are you coachable? Sure, experience. I'd love you to have all the experience in the world, but sometimes that comes along with a bunch of bad habits and some ego also, you know, and that's kind of hard to work through. But grit, you know, having grit, it's hard to interview. Like, what are the interview questions that you would use, Brian, you know, that would you know, bet out grit. It's kind of tough, you know.

It is because, you know, anyone can make up a story.

Anybody.

Yeah, look at all the influencers. Everybody lived in a car for years, been homeless, pulled themselves up by their bootstraps until you do a little investigation. And then you find out that, oh, they went to Andover, you know, took their junior year abroad, That's when they slept in the car one night because they were drunk. Yeah. Because, yeah, and today grittiness really isn't enforced.

It's not. It's interesting, you know, hiring in this day and age, there's, it's different. We'll leave it at that for right now. That's another topic, another day.

What were some of the epiphanies along the way that really took your sales game to the next level?

Yeah. So a couple of things. I mean, there's some framework that's really important that I was taught by folks that built it based on enough win-loss deals. And so this framework of really understanding what the current situation is, of whomever it is that you're serving, right? And I say serving because that's what, that's what we're doing. We're trying to identify ways that we can actually serve someone's needs. And so finding out their current situation, understanding what the negative consequence is if they stay in that situation, identify what they're trying to get to as their target scenario, the future state, and what the positive business outcomes are. And there's a lot of underpinning things that you need to have underneath that. for your product or service to actually help them get to the promised land or that target scenario. So that framework, you know, mantra framework has since I think 2016 is when I learned it and I've been implementing it ever since. And my career, my earnings have gone up, my sales have gone up. And so that framework is really neat. MedPic is another one that's familiar to a lot of people out there. It used to be called Medic. You know, they've added in the paper process, the P. And so that's another one. It's not a framework, it's just an acronym, but it's a checklist, right? And so those are tools that have helped me. But I think that like the main thing that's helped me is actually that whole concept that I shared before, which is Really getting in and understanding and listening because, because quite frankly, people will let you in innately as humans, society, situationally. We've been built to kind of keep a tough face and like not share information and be guarded, you know, and scrutinize everybody that's new in our life. The minute that you can get past that is the minute that you can start actually solving problems and understanding what, you know, people need. And so that's the— for me, that's been the game. That's the game. How do I get in? You know, how do I let them know that I'm a human and they're human and we're just trying to, you know, figure some things out together? You help me, I help you, and so on and so forth, you know. And I think that that paradigm shift for me happened, you know, probably about 10 years ago. And Again, sales is hard. Sales is a challenging industry to say the least, but it's more enjoyable when you figure some things out there.

Well, you nailed it early on when you said everyone has a story and you also nailed it. Everyone loves to talk about themselves.

They do. I do too. Listen to me. I just keep babbling.

Of course you do. It's innate. That is innate. And it is everyone.

Sure.

And if, if you can just tickle it out and build up enough rapport so that they can open up, that's where the magic happens. I couldn't agree more. Right. Because selling future state and everything, that's, you know, that's what the company wants and maybe some of the people want. Yeah. But people are also infinitely capable of rationalizing why the obvious best solution is the dumbest and will destroy the company. Because they don't want change.

I've just got off a call with the customer right now and they said, I'm not having enough of a pain point. And I'm, you know, obviously trying to say, well, we get that, but your bosses, you know, and they don't care and they're influencers. And so you're absolutely right to your point. People buy from people. I know that sounds cliché, But that rapport and that relationship that you build up, even if your product is way more expensive than someone else's and maybe not even the best on the market, if you have rapport built up, they trust you and they will go the journey with you.

Right. Because trust is the bandwidth of communication. No trust, it's like a string with 2 cups on the end, right?

Huh? Right.

Once you have trust, then it's just smiling and nodding. It's like there's— it's built in. They believe you.

That's pretty profound, actually. It's so basic, but that's a concept that I don't think that we talk about enough.

No, we don't, because we're focused on our needs and it blinds us from other people's needs. Like, you're growing up with your sister forced you To learn how to communicate her way.

Very true, very true. I mean, I just got chills when you just said that because it validates how true that is.

And and certainly sign language no one can move their hands probably as fast as people can think and speak. It's just the physics of it.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

So it requires okay what does she mean by that? And, and I'm sure with sign language, the sign has a, a meaning, but the interpretation of the meaning can be different.

Expectation. That's the other thing is like when I say something, are you really listening? And do you, uh, in sales we have this all the time. So great analogy to pull that back to. Thanks for bringing that up. But when you ask a question and someone says something, do you really understand it or do you understand it the way that you want to understand it?

Right.

You know, the drill down the different levels of black belt discovery, right? You got surface level, the what's going on, not the how or the why, you know, but if you just stay at the surface level, you're not really solving the right problems, maybe.

No, no, because naturally salespeople, we're at the logical level. Our product does this and it's better than these other products. And it makes obvious sense that your future state will be better, but you're not moving. And there's a reason there. And it's our job to dig into that. It's not their job to explain it to us because they're going to say, no budget. We have too many other priorities. We're going to build it ourselves.

Heard that too many times.

Right.

And people take this as object— that's not an objection. That's a rationalization why I don't want to talk to you and I have no interest.

It's very interesting to think about it that way.

It's gaslighting, right? It's, and, and then what do we do? We just dig in deeper, which makes them like, you fool. Yeah.

Right.

You're chasing the wrong thing.

What if we discount it? What if we discount it? Yeah.

How about if you, can you do it this quarter?

Yeah. Yeah. How about a net 90 if you could get budget from next quarter? Yeah.

Right. Because we think it's always about money.

Sure.

You know, especially in the B2B, it's much more about Their personal win and change. How painful is the change and how hard is it for me to buy this through the gauntlet for what I get? Yeah.

And I think that to that, to that same point, you brought up something that is super important that is part of that framework that I shared, but is, you know, the champion, right? In, in MedPic, you've got the champion component of that and The personal vested interest, right? Everyone that you come in contact with wants to know what's in it for them. And they don't readily tell you what they're going to get out of it.

They may not even know, or they may not realize it. Yeah. Nor want to admit that they're thinking about it.

Because it might be selfish desires.

Of course, it's selfish, right? Because they wouldn't care if it wasn't selfish.

Right, exactly. I guess that's why it's called a personal vested interest. But yet once you figure out what that is and you genuinely, because here's the thing, one thing that I have noticed is that some of these concepts and some of these, you know, methods, once you get good at it, you could either use it for good or you can use it mischievously, right? And so that's a power that I think that, you know, professional salespeople need to keep in check, you know, is once you understand what their personal vested interest is and you can align to that and they know and they can see that you could help them get that, it's almost like an unfair advantage that you have over other vendors out there.

Well, you know, people think it's just what's in it for me, but it's much deeper than that.

Sure.

Right. Because every CISO would buy every security product in the world. If, if it, what's in it for me? But they only buy the ones that are going to keep them from getting fired and keep them employable.

100%. No one wants to buy a career-limiting product.

Right. You know, how long was it? You know, you probably don't remember, but like, you know, the old IBM thing, but then, you know, Digital Equipment came up. The product was infinitely better. Then Sun Microsystems came out. It was infinitely better than them. And then all of a sudden the cloud came about, but companies didn't switch. It was like early adopters that switched.

It actually took a while. The first part of my software career, we, so a couple of things happened. I don't know if it's okay for me to share just these couple of things, but so what I noticed is the trend was everyone was on-prem and getting someone to move to the cloud was like a Herculean effort for some companies.

Absolutely.

And others, it was pretty easy. It's weird, but that was because they didn't have an infosec team at this point, you know, and they were approving budget like crazy, selling into certain, you know, orgs like the marketing org. They had their own budget, they would approve things. Next thing you know, compliance and security came out and they started scrutinizing the heck out of vendors because Things were getting slipped past the goalie. And so that we saw this whole compliance officer come about. And it's been interesting.

That's it.

Everyone thinks like Salesforce took over because it was the non-software company. They took over because the VP of sales did not have to deal with IT to have a CRM now.

That's actually really fascinating. That makes a lot more sense.

They could just put it on the corporate credit card. Or just get a PO through, and IT had no nothing to do with it.

That and that is why we're now being scrutinized.

Now there's some issues with it.

That's so funny. Oh man!

Hey James, I really appreciate your time today. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

You know LinkedIn. Find me on LinkedIn, James Walker. I work for a company called Progeo. You guys, if you have any project portfolio management needs, Progeo can handle those needs for you. I'd love to be able to talk to you just to get to know you a little bit better. Fact of the matter is, we're all in the same, the same pot. We're all trying to focus on what's important to us. And if we can bond together, we can go the distance and go a lot further. So, uh, look forward to, uh, hearing, hearing back from any of you on some of the things that you learned today.

I hope you enjoyed that. I hope the suspense helped a little bit. I think that, uh, that experience really changed how he communicates, how James does with other people. He has to slow it down. He has to watch for visual cues, verbal, nonverbal, hand gestures, and we all have to be sensitive to that. And if you watch— I love crime shows and I love the little interrogations, and sometimes I'll watch it a couple times, true crime, not reenacting, but the real videos of them, and try and pick out, is that person lying? Look for little cues in their body language and how they're behaving. And is that how somebody should be behaving? This will give you a sense of how to read the other person. Most of us are too focused on what we're going to say. First of all, what we ask will be infinitely more powerful than what we say. Especially in a sales situation. Until we have substantial rapport, there's almost little to no trust. Because on the trust continuum, salespeople are naturally, without any fault of our own, put on the low-trust end. So why not use questions and get the other person talking? Then you can really Dig in and become curious because the magic happens when the other person is talking. And you might say, well, my prospects don't want to talk. Until they do. And then it's hard to get them to stop. Have you ever been at a party and you get somebody talking and you cannot leave because they start at kindergarten and move on to high school and all of a sudden you hear their whole life story and Boy, they've got chapter after chapter. That's how customers and prospects can be if you know how to dig it out, how to be a little bit patient, a little bit curious, where to start. This is what people don't get about how prospecting has changed today. In the '90s, you might have had to be a fanatic to be good in prospecting. Today, you have to be a person. You have to be able to engage with other people. And these random acts of prospecting that are going on today are so volume-oriented, spammy. Why? Because low volume doesn't seem to work because they don't put the time and the quality. No one wants to put the quality in because the return is so low. But if you do the right quality with the right prospects, not everybody on earth— remember, 10% won't buy anything from anyone for any reason. Okay, there goes 700 million people. Now you got to think, oh, the people in my territory, who is most likely to buy, most likely to have the problem that I solve, most likely to be curious About how it works and what would they get out of it. And this is the hard thing about selling to people, is that people are different, but they're all pretty much self-centered. Narcissism isn't something that's unique. It's ubiquitous.

Leverage it.

Don't ignore it. Don't downtalk it. Play with it. Build it up because the secret to unlocking everybody is to be interested in them, not in you. If you're trying to find interest in your product, good luck. It'll find you before you find it. What our job is to go out and create some curiosity and interest. Is it hard?

Hmm.

No harder than doing dumb things. It's easier than doing dumb things. You know what I mean by dumb things? Cold calling with no real context, no real relationship, no real hook to get them talking, or spammy. Oh, you've got your value proposition, your sales-ready messaging straight out of the scientific AI-enabled marketing department where they spent months working on every comma, every T, every I, and they have got every insight that the market is demanding right now, and it falls dead because no one can understand it because it's all marketing gobbledygook, buzzword-enabled. Human repellent. Prospecting has changed significantly. What we need to do is start conversations that get business meetings. Oh, I know, I can hear, I, I know what I'm doing. Look at me, I've been doing this for 25 years and I'm making a solid $150,000. Okay, you happy? Cool, move on. I want the person who's making $150,000, who's unhappy, who wants to make $500,000, $1 million, and where those conversations are the difference between making $150,000 and $500,000. It's up to you. You decide. You can work your butt off or you can work smart. Sell smarter. That's my new motto. Let's go for it together. Go to b2brevenue.com, sign up today, develop your skills, invest in yourself. You are the asset. You are the means of production. You can look outside of yourself, but you don't have any control over that. Change jobs— good luck with that. What we have to do is take what we have right now and make the best of it. And crush it. One person in the course doesn't even cold call. His whole other team is like pounding the phones and they're burnt out by 10:30 in the morning. What does he do? He follows the course. He sends me examples. He goes, this is gold. They don't believe me and I don't care because he's raking it in. And it takes a little practice. It's a skill. It's not a script. It's a skill. So you have to work it. You can like take the course and go, I know it now. Okay. Why isn't it working?

Are you doing it?

Show me. Oh, well, it's kind of what you told me. Show me. Well, it's identical to what you told me. Show me. Uh, that's not identical. It's close, but not identical. What we have to do is build up that empathy because in sales it's hard to be empathetic. Why? We're under some enormous pressure which naturally focuses on survival, on getting the deal as fast as possible. But our urgency does not transfer to them at all. More likely, it is repelling them. What does work is talking with people, hearing them out, connecting with them, engaging with them, understanding what they're up against. Go to b2brevenue.com, sign up today. Tell a friend about the show. We'll see you next time.