HOW TO THRIVE EVEN WHEN YOU ARE VIEWED AS A COMMODITY

Hey, before we get into the interview, I want to make sure you're aware of our other podcasts, the Sales Questions, Brutally Honest Answers show, which is a very quick, under 5 minutes in most cases, sometimes just a few minutes where I answer your questions. You can just send me any question to my LinkedIn profile, Brian G. Burns, and I'll put it in the queue to answer. Also, the Sales Leadership Show. If you're looking to get into sales leadership or you want to hear from the world's best sales leaders, that's where I interview them. Check it out, the Sales Leadership Show. Also at b2brevenue.com, you can learn all about all the courses. Links are in the show notes below, as well as our link to our partners over at brevitypitch.com, the fastest, easiest way to become great at sales and practice.

Before it's showtime.

Here we go.

Hey, Nick, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Yeah, Brian, again, thank you so much for having me. It's great to meet you and to be a part of this. So thank you. Yeah, Nick DeFeo, been in sales, kind of stumbled upon it like I'm sure most people tell you. Found myself in the industry now about 12 years, local here to Philadelphia. I've managed, I've sold, I've mentored, I've trained, I've kind of done it all. But I started my roots really, I went to a small D1 college and found my way through networking into the world of staffing, kind of found my first role there, kind of cut my teeth in, you know, hitting the phones and doing all the kind of gritty work that I think an entry-level sales rep does. And then, you know, was doing that, loved it, worked with HR, kind of found my way into another company, ADP, which I'm sure you know well and everyone does that watches So loved my time there. Wouldn't be where I am without them. I started my career really always wanting to just kind of get into medical device. That was always kind of the sexy industry that I think, you know, most people kind of look up to, you know. You know, hopefully that's all right if I said that. But yeah, you know, I found my way into that. Had a lot of great mentors. You know, worked for a small little company called Stryker. You know, big, obviously big med device company. Very grateful for my time there. Um, very different in comparison to the B2B kind of the tech component of what I was doing. Um, and then just found my way here at, at Paylocity and, uh, haven't looked back ever since. And yeah, I've been here, uh, coming up on 6 years.

Um, so yeah. So you like the easy sale where the, a lot of inbound? No, no.

Yeah, exactly right. I love the, the, yeah, I love just taking orders and picking up the phones and making sales. No, I, yeah, right, right. Uh, no, I, I, um, no, I love, you know, I, I'll tell you, And I'm sure you interview a lot of people that maybe operate in the same way I do. I love hunting. I always have. I always find like the thrill of the chase was fun for me. And when I found my way into staffing, you know, I was a recruiter and shout out to those who do recruiting. I couldn't do it. You know, it's a tough— that's a tough industry for sure. I love the sales side. So I got promoted pretty quickly to sales because I loved understanding how companies operate. And for me, I loved Being able to go to a company, find out the ins and outs, getting to work with the call points and trying to be a problem solver for them. But I loved definitely, like I tell my wife all the time, I don't remember what I had for dinner last night, but I could tell you every company within my turf and who they are and who they use and all that stuff. So I— hunting is at my core, which is interesting. I've kind of taken an arc in my career where I'm kind of half and half, a little bit more relationship-based, certainly today, but So yeah.

So I gotta believe the payroll market, that's gotta be one of the toughest.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, you know, I say this, like I said, I, you know, I wouldn't be where I am without my previous company, but it's a grind, Brian. Like, as you know, it's highly competitive, a lot of great companies out there. And I'm sure, you know, in the tech space, you know, it's not a one-size-fits-all for sure. You know, when I was selling in my previous roles, I was, you know, kind of working in a very unique market, outsourced, you know, HR. And there's a lot of complexities, you know, payroll to me, I always tell everybody this, it's like a beautifully complicated industry where once you understand it, you grasp it, you've got it. But it does take a lot of falling on your face, understanding the nuances of all the complexities. But it's, look, it's a very competitive industry. And I feel like even today, the way that people sell I think competitive, understanding the competitive landscape in my eyes is just as important as knowing yourself. But that being said, I'm very lucky, you know, with where I am and we have a, you know, obviously a phenomenal product and I'm, I've always been backed by that. But yeah, it's competitive. It's very competitive.

So what do you do different? I mean, you've survived and succeeded in this market where it's kind of, A little bit of a meat grinder? I mean, certainly the ADPs with a lot of college people they take in and work through the system. Yeah. Yeah.

So, you know, for me, um, I was in a unique department of ADP where, um, I was actually quite lucky, Brian, because I've, you know, I know a lot of people probably share, I, you know, I've always had, uh, pretty good leadership where they kind of let me be myself and let me do my thing. I was never someone who was motivated by the stack rank or the metric-driven. I always kind of hit that. That wasn't really my thing. But for me, I was in a division where I was actually, I was 20, I mean, geez, I was 24, 25 at the time and I was in a department of 30-year-olds, 40-year-olds. So I was in actually a more sophisticated, I wasn't just like the feet on the street hitting the payroll and, you know, transition you and that kind of thing. So I was lucky in that sense, Brian, 'cause I got a lot of consultative sale at a young age. So I felt very lucky there. Yeah. And then that's kind of where it kind of led me to today, you know, where today I feel like, to your point, do I benefit certainly from the industry? You know, I do go against a lot of, you know, young guns and young kids that, you know, I can say confidently, I, you know, I've weathered the storm. I've been in this industry for some time. So I think a lot of customers do. It's a comfort thing when they work with me. And I try to— I'm a big believer in sales when My job is to make this transaction as, as easy as possible. Um, I'm not a, I'm not a, uh, I'm as smooth as sandpaper, Brian, when it comes to negotiations. Right. I try to make things as easy as possible for the, for the folks that I serve, you know.

So on, on the hunting side, would you say that's your strongest part of the sales process or?

Yeah. I mean, for me, um, you know, I've always been really good with connecting the dots. So I look at more persona sales than I do just industry. Right. So as you can imagine, everyone needs payroll. I, I, I I'm lucky in the sense that I have a commodity sale. Let's call it what it is, right? Everyone needs payroll and taxes at the end of the day, unfortunately. But I think there's a more strategic way of looking at it where, you know, I've always been a matter of, okay, look at my customer base. And I'm lucky where I, I do, uh, they let me keep all of my clients, which is awesome. Um, and I'm able to, you know, kind of work with folks that maybe go from other companies to whatever. Um, but for me, hunting has always been Okay, company, here's our target, here's our target market, here's where we play well. And then there's a difference between the company you're talking to and then the person across from you. And I think that's something that gets lost sometimes where I'm big on persona sales. Like, is this person progressive? Do they care about what we do? Is it all just, are they gonna put us in an RFP and drill down and go to the lowest number? So I think a lot of times, you know, I find that I've kind of graduated to really seeking out individuals than I do companies. Because I've worked for, you know, I've sold enterprise-level companies that operate like a 50-employee company. And then I've had companies that are 50 employees that operate that.

So who are you targeting? Who's the decision maker for payroll?

Uh, yeah. So for me, um, primarily HR and finance, you know, and there's a kind of a mixture of personas throughout, right? There's more progressive HR than maybe a generalist per se, perhaps, um, that's just starting their career. But there's, there's different layers. Um, but for me, my call points, you know, I've always been focused on champion to HR, um, just because that's my background. That's kind of what I started in and I'm comfortable with it. Um, but of course, with the nature of what I do, find myself definitely speaking to CFOs. Um, rarely do I find myself talking to the owners. Um, that's at least in the larger space, that's not very common.

But why would HR switch? Because like, I gotta— that's what you're doing, right? Because they're not doing it on paper anymore or in Excel. Someone—

they're using somebody.

Right, right. Yeah, yeah. Most times. Yeah, it's a good point. They are. You know, it's— I sell to— look, I mean, let's face it, no one wants to— it's a process, right? It's a process to switch. And I think that's usually the biggest thing we— I run into. It's kind of more of, hey, this all sounds great, but I just— I have to do it, right? It's work. And it is work. But I think the outcomes, you know, I focus on really what the outcomes can be and what they should be. And I find that when you guide a customer through that process, it's kind of like, hey, does the pain and the money and the all of it, does it all outcome to what you're looking for? And, and like I said, I am lucky with what I sell where I do have a product that cuts through a lot of noise because there are some things where I could be as simple of a sales rep, Bryan, where I could say, hey, you want to streamline, automate? Great. Boom. I could give that to you.

Yeah.

If you're trying to like transform the culture and communication of how these organizations work, I can do that too. And, and that's where I find what I love is I'm not in a one-dimensional sale. I have some clients that just crawl before they walk, and then I have some that are, hey, we use systems, we understand systems, we want to maximize, like we look at this as a true investment versus our payroll's broken. We, yeah, we need something, you know.

So let's say you're going after an account. What, what would your strategy be?

Yeah, I mean, I'm a— my grandfather told me, and I live by this, but proper preparation prevents poor performance, right? I'm sure you've heard a rendition of that, you know, but when I'd mess up, he'd sit, you know, he'd put the 5 at me. But for me, I'm a big believer in pre-call planning. You know, I don't think that that's stressed enough at times. You know, I think people go into each call and kind of been like, especially if you've been doing a certain job for a while, you get comfortable and you're like, I've seen you 1,000 different times, but different themes. I'm big on preparing for the organization, right? Obviously, Obviously, who they use is important, but I'm really looking at the structure of the company and how they make money. And on top of that, what are the driving factors, right? A lot of times as well, you know, I'm— there's a, you know, with what I do in my industry, as you know, payroll, HR benefits, it's all very connected. So relationships are key too. So I do tap into relationships I've held and I've managed for years that, you know, also can support me in, you know, in not just making the sale, but also cutting through maybe some of the noise of competitive competitors and things of that nature. But for me, I really focus on the company. What do they do? How do they make money and how can I help them make money and solve real problems? So yeah.

And so give, give me an example. Why would they switch? I mean, I, I still, I gotta believe, because when people are selling change, because that's what you're really selling.

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So, you know, I think there's a, there's a, there's a multitude of factors, right? Sometimes it's the house is on fire, things are broken.

Yeah.

We need to change, right? And, and to your point, that's very few and far between, right? I think it comes down to, you know, first off, is the product or service that they're on, is it scalable to where they're going? That happens a lot. I do run into situations where this product was good for us at the time, Right. And now we're going into the same QuickBooks or, yeah, you know, something like that. Or, you know, other page, you know, it's more maybe a local payroll company. Right. And look, there's value across the board in what everybody does. But for me, I think it's a matter of them trying to take that next step into, you know, hey, we have all this automated. That's great. You know, because what I say to everybody is, you know, automation and efficiency has a plateau. It really does. I can onboard a package just like my competitors can really like now how we're built is different. That kind of has a plateau. I think it's the other areas for, for, for at least me that clients come on board with. And it's, you know, onboarding and HR and learning management, helping them, you know, with education and, and, and, you know, personal development, whether that's performance reviews. There's a little bit more, there's a little bit more value on the HR front than it is just a payroll conversation. And I tell every client, and I say this and I mean this full-heartedly, for every group that I interact with. If you're just looking at us to have a different payroll grid and to have, you know, maybe lower pricing, like, that is not what we do. And, and that's okay. And I know that there's, you know, some people in this industry who may not be comfortable with saying that, but I'm okay to step away from business because ultimately, right, I'm very close to all of my clients. I'm with them every step of the way in implementation. That's a part of my time. I'm compensated off of that. So. I also have to make sure it's a good marriage between the two parties, you know.

Now, let's say HR wants you, but payroll doesn't.

Yeah.

Because they're used to what they're doing, whatever it is.

Yeah.

Is that the common theme that you run into or?

Yeah, it can be. I mean, because, you know, let's face it, like I always, I always equate payroll as, again, it's a necessary evil, right? Death and taxes are the two things we'll always be responsible for. But to your point, I mean, payroll, It is more of a comfort level in I just don't know what I don't know, and the devil is better than the devil I don't, right? Meaning it's just they're comfortable, right? Yeah. And there are times where that does take a little bit more massaging and understanding like, hey, you know, understanding what our training looks like and how that's rolled out. And for me, you know, I have— I call it like a brag book, but I took it from my days at Med Device. But, you know, kind of having a book of clients that I'm like, hey, these are these are very similar situations where, you know, HR finance is driven, but payroll was reluctant. Maybe it's the other way around. You know, sometimes that does happen too. But primarily it's usually payroll where it's like, I just don't want you to mess anything up. Right. And I get it because fundamentally with what I do, if payroll doesn't— if payroll is not accurate, then the rest of the chips fall. Right. I don't sell a third-party benefits system or a third-party, you know, collaboration software. Like in the end it is all, all or nothing. But yeah, it does happen from time to time for sure.

And you clearly have seen a lot of salespeople. What do you think separates the best from the rest?

Yeah, you know, I think there is a level of confidence I think most sales reps have in a way where I'm not an overly confident person, but I'm confident in what I know, right? Meaning I take— I'm big on personal development. Brian, I think everyone says that, but, you know, I've had to work on my craft, right? I have a kind of a unique background and I'm not the smartest of the bunch, but I work hard and I get to my clients what they need. I think, I think it's a matter of sticking to a process first and foremost. Personal development, you always have to get better. I don't care if you've been doing it 10 years, you sell a million every year, or you're just starting out. I think there's a level of entitlement that people shouldn't have. They have to have like be humble about themselves. And I think the other part, and this is kind of, I think, is lost on— there's a lot of people, everyone always says, I should be, I'd be great in sales, I'm a people person. And there's a difference between— I always tell everybody when I trained, you know, for Pelasi, I'd say, I drink a beer with you, that's one thing. Do I trust you? That's another. And I think those reps that have like the infusion of both, are the ones who are really able to push the needle when it's like, I like Nick, he's great, and I also trust that he knows what he's doing, and when things get rocky, he can take me through those tough times. You know, I don't always— when I see certain reps, I can tell which ones are trying to be more interesting than interested, you know? And I tell them all the time, and that's how I am. Like, if I ask a question, it comes from a genuine place of curiosity. Like, I love what I do because I want to help the person across from me, but if they can't help themselves or I can't help them, I tell them like, it's okay, you know, business is fine. That's all good. Like, and I don't think everyone has that ability to feel comfortable in their own skin and, you know, maybe being open to that.

Yes, I think that's the kind of the definition of the right type of confidence you need in sales. Be comfortable in your own skin. Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, because you see the new reps that shake like a puppy going to the vet for the first time, right?

Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

That's not what you want. That's not comfortable in your own skin. That's very uncomfortable.

No, it's not. No, it's not. And, and, and obviously too, the opposite too, right?

Like the, the manufactured confidence, you know, the overly confident, that's what I call the confidence paradox. Then you get the B-player confidence where they think they're an A-player, Yeah. Just because they're confident or they had a good quarter or a good year, right? Then they don't see anything that's going wrong because, right, it can't be them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I always ask somebody, you know, your success, like, walk me through how'd you do it? And if there's inconsistencies with, you know, well, this is how I do it and this is how I stick to it. If they can't define that for me, usually I find that there's gaps right somewhere in their process and it's either for them to want to fix or You know, sometimes that's where I think coaching and mentoring is so important in this industry because, you know, let's face it, I think a lot of sales reps get blinders from time to time. And, you know, in all different, you know, cycles, I think it's always good to have a coach and a mentor to be able to bounce ideas off outside of your direct, you know, manager. Right.

Yeah. Because the point of coaching is not to judge you. It's to talk about the performance.

Right. Yep. And to get better, right? Yeah, get better.

Yeah. You know, this thing here could have been tweaked a little. And if you do it with your manager, you gotta like, you gotta put a show on. So you're not telling the truth. And then all they care about is, you know, sell something.

Yeah.

Or be busy.

Yep. Yeah, I think, and that's the other thing too. I think it's like theatrical busyness, I call it, where there's a lot of times where people are like, Overly sharing what they're doing. And I mean, look, I think every sale— I know you know this, but I think every sales organization has that where there's metrics, right? And there's things that have to be hit. I think I'm at a stage in my career where I know the game, I get it, you know, Salesforce and CRMs, and it's the important part of it.

But in the end, right, revenue, closing ratios, relationships, you get paid on one and you don't get paid on the other, right?

That's in the end of the day, that's what matters. But I do think To that point though, it's funny, I was just having this conversation with a mentor of mine. You know, I think in today's age with reps, and I was in a position where I was, you know, mentoring brand new reps and then reps who come from the industry and other competitors. And I just, I had an observation year basically within my company, which I'm grateful for. But the one thing I noticed was, you know, the grit and the determination. It's almost like you have to have a combo in my eyes. This is how I see it is, You have to have a combo of you need, you need to need money. Money should be important, sure. But then there's a difference between needing money and wanting money. And I think that the perfect rep is somewhere in between. You know, I don't know if that what I'm saying makes sense, but—

It is because you gotta have a need there. Otherwise, your person's gonna lose interest.

Yeah.

If it's just a want. Right.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. So for me, it's just a matter of, you know, because I think sometimes people harp on the grittiness factor and the, you know, the aspect of like really hitting the phones and doing the hard part of the job, which is important, but that's like one piece of it in my opinion.

Right. But then people take it too far.

Yeah.

And all of a sudden it's a distraction from the hard work is how do we close the deal? The hard work is not how do we make 50 calls a day, right? Anyone can do that.

Anyone could do that, right?

Exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

Very few can figure out how to get into that account.

Yeah. And the other thing too, and this is a practice that I have actually, I instilled early in my career. I had a sales mentor who told me this and it kind of like opened up for me is it doesn't matter how many dials you make. It doesn't matter what's in your pipeline. It's how many people have you talked to today? How many conversations have you had? And I think that's the metric that sales leadership should look at is who have you talked to and what was the quality of that conversation? And I think, yeah, but I, but I think though, right, there's only, you know, the metrics go downhill.

That's the problem. There's soon that's happening. But of course, once you make a goal 50, they focus on 50. They don't focus on the quality of those conversations.

Yeah.

Right. And as soon as you make that a metric, then they're gonna call the movie theater and listen to the voicemail for 20 minutes and put the phone down while they go to lunch. Oh, I had an hour and a half conversation.

Right.

This is the gamesmanship never ends.

Right.

Yeah.

So if you don't make the target the right one, which is revenue, right?

Everyone kind of gamesmanship.

Yeah. It trickles down, right? It all trickles down. And look, I think anybody who's ever been in a sales capacity knows the importance, right? Like if you don't have meetings, you don't, you know, you just simply don't get to come up, come to work every day. Is that a KPI?

Yeah. Yeah.

And I had a— I have a mentor here who's been in the industry a really long time. And what he told me, it's like so profound, but it's, you know, you know how like the most profound things are the most simple, right? He told me, you're either setting meetings or you're attending meetings and there is nothing that matters. And I was like, wow, that's a really good point. And I think it's because I do find as someone who trained professionals and people who come in, they're like, what about this tool? And what about that tool? And this, you know, we use this in my old company. And I thought, I find that people use those as crutches at times, right?

It's a distraction.

A little bit. It's distractions. And—

Why do managers use dashboards?

Right, right.

It's not because it increases revenue. It's a distraction.

So as a rep, right, the advice I give is being really good with blocking out the noise. And I think, you know, I'm a father of You know, coming up on 3, right? So it's like, yeah, a lot of noise. I got chaos everywhere in my life. But, but, you know, I think you develop that mindset of, you know, what can I control, right? Control the controllables. What can I control? And if I can't control that, then, then you have to just kind of move on. Like, you know, I played sports and rugby, you know, throughout my career. And I— a good coach was always, you know, again, the goldfish mentality of, hey, a good athlete has a short memory. Sales is the same way, right? And I think As you get older and get more sophisticated in the sale, there are certain things that just don't bother you like it used to, you know.

You don't care what the audience is saying.

Right. Yeah, exactly. The crowd.

Yeah, it doesn't affect you.

Right, right. And again, that, but that's like a constant tweaking, you know, you have to, you really have to work at that all the time. It does.

Yeah, right. Because the number one question I get is, what do I do about when my manager wants me to do this thing?

Right.

Is that something you need me to tell you?

Right, right. Yeah.

Do they pay you to do that?

Right.

Exactly.

Well, they pay you to do this. Right. So do that and do that more. Right, exactly. Yeah. It's, yeah. So it's always an interesting conversation. And I think, you know, again, it goes all down to self-awareness. And I think a lot of times when I, you know, a lot of reps still within my company come to me a lot for advice or just, you know, and I love it. I do. I have to be more selfish sometimes, but For me, a lot of times I, when I talk to someone, I think that they, they know the answer and they know I know the answer and they're just trying to get to it. And I think sometimes, again, going back to that mentoring and coaching, you almost have to just talk them through it to the point where they're like, you know what, I'm either not doing X or Y or Z and they know it. It's like fitness. I always say, you know, I always see you walking, you know, and you look great. I know you've been walking a lot. I watch your walking videos like, you know, it's like fitness, right? Like you can't expect the fast results. Like you have to put in the work. It's always, it's about consistency over intensity all the time.

Right. And you know, the, the problem I think people have or mammals have is like when it's stimulus response, we get it. Yeah. Like weight loss, it's a lot of work. No result, no result, no result, no result. Yeah. And then maybe a week later, tiny result.

Right.

But yeah, pain, pain, pain, pain, pain.

Yeah, exactly.

So what do people do?

Right. They cheat.

They, they, they switch to another diet. And that's what happens in sales. They're coming to you and they're like, you know, and then, and you do it backwards. So you're making the calls, you, what are you doing on the calls? Calls with the right people.

Right, right. Yeah. Just reverse engineer it, you know? And that's why I don't know if, and I, I maybe I made this up in my mind, but, you know, I, I've been lucky enough where I've had, you know, A lot of different roles in the companies I've been for, but, you know, I always look at sales in like 3-year stints, right? Like that first year, and this is one thing I teach a lot of like younger reps, and this is something that it's a good reminder, like the first year sucks. Like it's awful. Like the first year is like, it's really hard, right? You're learning, you're learning. If you sell products, you're learning the product, you're learning how it's implemented, you're learning all these things. Then that second year, if you're doing the right activity, you pop off and you hit club and all the great The third year is the test. Do you do it again and how could you do it? And I've always been in positions where, you know, every 2, 3 years I get, you know, I do something else. Maybe it's like the ADHD in me or whatever. Like, you know, I love the challenge. I love, for me, I love sales, but I love the challenge of, you know, doing different things. I'm not scared of that. And, you know, like just taking on new territories or selling in a new vertical, like that to me is, it's exciting, right? But I think to a lot of people it would be terrifying.

Yeah.

Um, you know, and I get that.

And what do you see most reps doing wrong that they kind of know it or?

Yeah, you know, um, a lot of times it's hyper-focused on the competitor that they're talking to, right? And, and again, right, I mean this in all sincerity for anybody who watches, you know, I, competitive intel is important and it's certainly a part of what you need to be aware of. Unfortunately, in this space, I don't know how it is in others. I mean, There has been some, you know, there's a lot of competitors, right? And you kind of can't control what they say or don't say. And I think that's— people get wrapped up into, oh, you know, ADP and Paycom, what are they going to say? What are they going to— it's like, it doesn't matter, right? In the end, it doesn't matter. And you have to feel firm about what you're presenting and the value adds. And should you be knowledgeable of what they do and how they present themselves? But I do think in the end of the day, if you're the right individual and you're the type of person that people gravitate and they're going to listen to and really take in, and you can back it up, That shows out. So I think, you know, that's one thing. So people focus again hyper on on competitive. I think the other piece of it is, you know, at least here at Paylock, I mean, we have a lot of products. There's a lot of depth. The company, you know, that you have a lot of stuff, right? Just have a lot of stuff you can sell. And and I, you know, I envy, you know, the days of payroll where it's like, hey, tax deductions and earnings. Like that's it. It's pretty simple, right? But where you're in a more complex sale in the sense of you have a lot of stuff to sell, and I think what happens. Is people go in and just everything, you know, everything. Oh, you need it all, right? And they vomit and they go through and they tell the client why they should. Oh, and when they're doing a discovery, instead of it being about solution selling, it's about, oh well, you know, how do you handle onboarding? Oh well, with our system, it's bo bo bo bo bo bo, you know. So I think just holding back and really being just slow in each role, right? And I get it when a rep comes out. And they're out of training and they're excited. They are just every prospect they talk to is a seller and wants to buy. And I think that's just one thing that you know they gotta just be aware of. And I always we always break it down or the way I break it down is passive versus active. If I talk to you today, Brian, maybe today it's a you're just seeing what's out there. You don't know what's out there, and that's okay. We can have that conversation, and in six months, a year from now, we may talk again. I set up that meeting, we talk differently than, oh, okay, you're actively in a situation, you know.

I, I gotta imagine HR, I've never sold it to HR, but every HR person I met didn't seem like the type of person who wants to sit through a bunch of sales presentations or be pushed.

No, not at all. No, not at all. I always tell everybody, I think in some ways, you know, during the COVID eras of Zoom. And, you know, in some ways, I've seen some of the best reps, and I mean this, some of the best reps, it ruined them because they were, they were, you know, in front of a crowd.

They're introverts.

Yeah, exactly. They want that. And then I saw others who, you know, I believe like myself, who you just had to pivot. You had to. But in a lot of ways, I tell HR like, hey, the beauty of Zoom and Teams and all these great things is like, you can hit the leave button at any time. You have the power, right? So I think it's like just making it enjoyable for them and understanding, right, that Hey, you're a busy person. I'm busy. Like, I don't want to waste your time. And I think, again, kind of going back to that confidence level of just know the person across from you. They know it's a sales call. They know what you're there to do. Just make it easy for them. And I think that gets lost. I think there's just a lot of, like, you know, maneuvers and tactics and strategies, and it's like you just gotta Just get down to the basics of of what you're there to do, you know.

And what do you get about sales that most reps don't get?

Um, I don't. That's a good question. I think um, I for me personally, like where I've been in my life, and I've always been fascinated. Maybe it's the Italian. I'm from Jersey, but like I've always been fascinated with um getting to know people. Like I could be. I volunteered in a in a into like a retirement home growing up, like during high school, right? And I was the type that I could just talk to someone in the corner, right? And I know that's not a skill that— like, my wife's a teacher, I love her to death, but she's like, I can't do what you do. And I just, I love getting to know people. I really do. It's— and it's from a genuine place of, you know, I want to get to know them. It's curiosity. It's not, you know how like people ask questions and it's leading questions and you know when the question's being asked?

Yeah.

Yeah, like, what are you leading me towards?

The statement framed as a question.

Right, right. I'm more of, from my experiences, here's what I've seen happen, right? Plan A is, this is great. Plan B. And I think the one thing that I tell all my reps is when you're in the roundtables, you're with the teams and you're hearing wins, the win that you heard me say is now your win. You may not have customers, new rep, but you now do because I just told you of one that I sold. And that was something that I was told early in my career. Where when I was at work, I really consumed myself with the customers and who do they know and how do we solve their problems? Like really getting down to that. And I think that's just, I think that's lost on, right? Because when you see the revenue stack, you just, you see who's selling and who's killing it versus the stories behind the sale, you know?

Yeah.

And I think that, that's a big one.

Yeah. Because I think the idea that the, there's a person on the other end instead of persona, Right. And, and the, the desire to learn about them.

Yeah.

And help them.

Yeah. Yeah. It has to, it has to, yeah, it has to come from a genuine place. Because, you know, if, if you do the right activity and the right amounts of it with the right people, and in this space of HR, it's very, everyone knows everybody.

It's a long, complex sale. It's a lot of variables, a lot of moving pieces, probably time. dependent on a renewal?

Yeah, timing is everything. And you know how it is. It's when time, pain, and opportunity kind of come together. Yeah, timing is something where, you know, I'm always a believer in you create your own luck, especially if you've been in the territory. But that's why that first year is so hard. You may have, you know, there's definitely the one-hit wonders I've seen where the first year they blow up, right? And then, and then from there, you kind of question what happens. But timing is a lot of what, you know, Timing is a big component of, I think, any sale. But I think especially in what we, what I do, just because there's variables at play that, you know, you know that if you have a conversation in 6 months, it may not be fruitful, but in a year it could be, or in 3 months. It just depends on— that's why I always find that any conversation is not a bad one, but it's just how you approach it is what matters.

Yeah. Hey, Nick, appreciate your time today. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

Yeah, check me on LinkedIn. I've been on LinkedIn forever. I love it. So, a big proponent of it. So, yeah, just Nick DeFeo. Check me on LinkedIn. Shoot me a DM or whatever. I appreciate it, Brian. And yeah.

And to become great at sales, the best way is to model somebody who already has become good at sales and to hear other people Who have become great at sales and the journey that they're going through, the false beliefs, the misnomers, the mindset issues, all of the stuff that gets in our way between where we are and the income that we want. Let's face it, we're in sales because we're money motivated, we're competitive, we want to be better every day than we were yesterday. And how do we do that? Um, there's really, you know, read a book, uh, listen to a podcast. That's good, good start, I like it. But then you have to take action, and then you want both tactical and strategic ideas. You want mindset, you want strategy, you want to understand how companies buy, you want really deep content And examples, case studies, so that you can learn from other people's mistakes. That's what I'm here for. I'm here for you to learn from my mistakes. And boy, do I got a lot of them. So go to b2brevenue.com, sign up for the courses. There's 2 major ones. Start the Conversation, Get the Meeting fills up your pipeline, gets rid of that problem of, oh, I don't have enough leads. I don't have enough meetings. It gets those conversations started with the people you want to talk to. Now, it's not about a pitch. It's about a conversation. Now, everybody thinks of conversations when you're talking or you're online at the same time or you're on the phone or Zoom at the same time. That's not a conversation. A conversation is when the client is talking about what they care about, what they're interested in, and that is What we call qualification, where we can sense where are they and how do we build up that curiosity into interest into urgency to get a deal. And these are skills that we need. They're lifelong skills that we need in sales. And then how do we get a deal closed? Yes, anyone can take an order, but what if they don't know how to get it done? You got a new account. Where you're trying to get a big change done internally. What are the issues? If you're not planning that through, odds are it's not going to get done no matter how much your champion wants it. So winning the complex sale solves that problem for you. Why waste all your time on these false positives or these no decisions? Because they don't pay very well. They pay 0.0. What you want to do is pay a lot. So sign up today. Invest in yourself. You're the asset in sales. Quit waiting for somebody else to approve it or train you. See if you can get it expensed. That should be your first sales obstacle. Your first sales challenge is how do you get your company to pay for it? Just go down, tell your manager you want to do this. I put a little example email in the show notes right below here. Just swipe up and take a look at that. And if they won't, you got to ask yourself, why won't you? Why won't you? Oh, it takes time. Well, you work all day. You're working wrong all day. Why not improve that? There's the time right there. Oh, the money, Brian. It's money. Well, you make more money if you become better in sales. And Start the Conversation pays for itself the first week because you're going to get at least 2 meetings just learning from the very basics of it. Closing the Complex Sale will pay for itself 100 times over. Students in it tell me it's the best money they ever spent because they now have control over their deals. And it doesn't end. Some give up. Some give up after they win their first deal and they think they've got enough.

No, come back.

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Yeah.

Excuses feel good, but they're expensive.

Excuse—

you know what the excuses are costing you? Tens, 50, maybe a couple hundred thousand dollars a year in lost income.

Really?

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We'll see you next time.