HOW TO WIN EVEN WHEN YOU ARE VIEWED AS A COMMODITY

One of the things I talk a lot about is starting where the client is. And what I mean by that is, where are they on their interest level, their awareness level, their perception of the problem that you solve? Now, this is critical in the very early stage of a conversation or prospecting because as mammals, when we're in latent pain, When we haven't realized the pain yet, what do we do? We rationalize why we don't need what you're selling instead of rationalizing why we do, which is active pain. And this distinction is a big difference because if we think that they're already in active pain, They will pull us into, well, tell us about the product. Tell us about what you do. And it might be too early because what they're doing is, okay, I'll hear you out. But what they're thinking is why they don't need you instead of why they do. We're going to get into this in this interview today because what this guest is selling Pretty much everyone thinks is a commodity. Boxes, foam, tape, packaging products. Now, what could be more of a commodity than that? We've had cardboard and tape and foam and for a good century now, haven't we? There must be a million people that sell this stuff. But is there somebody who sells what I need, is going to help me solve my problem, who's going to help me Get the job done. That's what the client really cares about. They want their personal win. They want their success story. They don't just want the cheapest. We all think it's just the cheapest, but it's so much more than that. Now, what if you went to college for this thing that could appear to be a commodity?

Hmm.

I think you're going to get a lot out of this interview because in sales, we tend to get trapped in our prospect or our client's frame of the world instead of us entering their frame and building it into our frame by using questions, by getting them to see the things that they're missing by asking very well-crafted questions. Questions I help you with in the courses, in both of them. Questions are our only mind control tool, and if used well, it's like magic. But we tend to just stick with like situational informational questions instead of asking yourself, what do I want them to focus on and how do I get them to do it? I think you're really going to enjoy this interview. I'll sum it up at the end. And I happen to have personally grown up with a packaging salesperson in the house. So, I know this space reasonably well, at least the issues and the sales rep's perspective.

Hey, Frank, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Hey, Brian, appreciate the opportunity to be here. Thank you for the time to talk. I mean, look, today I'm the Senior Vice President for Atlantic Packaging Products out of Canada. We've got a couple of businesses in the US that I oversee, and we're having a lot of time selling boxes these days. So, but I am originally from South Carolina. You may tell that from my tone of voice right now. I can absolutely pick up on that.

It's not Canadian.

It's not Canadian. Yeah, from Southeast Canada actually. But, um, but no, it's, um, I'm married, uh, I got 3 kids and just really, um, you know, enjoy life, man. A lot of fun doing what we're doing these days.

And you studied packaging in college, right?

That's right, that's exactly right. So I went to Clemson University, um, had no idea what I wanted to do with my life, and, uh, we walk into, uh, a meeting, kind of an opening of, hey, here's what the university is about, here's some opportunities. Someone gets up, says, hey, there's this packaging program, everyone that graduates gets a job, a well-paying job. And I can remember the elbow from my dad saying, hey son, I think this is what you're going to do. We're getting you off the payroll, son, and here's what you're going to do, right? So yeah, so it's been very good. You know, a lot of times you go to college and—

Right.

I mean, these days it's extremely I got 2 kids in college right now. Both are in business school, but it's an exciting time. You never know exactly what you're going to do, but I feel fortunate to be able to go to school for something that actually meant something and then be able to get into an industry and really spend my entire career there.

And when you came out, was sales the first thing you wanted to do, or was it—

Not exactly. No, not exactly. So I actually went in, I was going to be an engineer, a packaging engineer. There wasn't many packaging engineers. All the big CPG companies were looking for I interviewed with big companies, General Mills, 3M, Toyota, different companies. And I started out doing design work. And so I'd make samples, I'd work with production, all this stuff. And what I found was, is after the 18th revision from the sales guy that didn't ask all the right questions, I said, you know what? I think I'm gonna get into sales.

Yeah.

Nothing more than to go help people, to get involved and to help people and engage with folks. So That's, that's how I got into sales. I started seeking out sales jobs and opportunities. Most people would say, well, you really don't have sales experience. And I'd say, well, I've actually got some sales experience. And they'd say, well, it's not on your resume. And just to give you a little background, Brian, I grew up in a family that's been in the residential home construction business that also got into hardware and lumberyard type supply.

Yep.

And I worked a counter for a lot of years at a hardware store where I actually learned a little bit about sales. And as I got into it, I realized, hey, if a guy's coming in, he's asking for crown molding or a 2x4, you got to ask him also, hey man, do you have enough nails? Did you, did you get a hammer? Do you need extra hammer today? Or whatever it may be. And you start to relate to people on what they may need and try to think ahead for them and try to just really get involved with what they have going on and how you can best help them in the way that you can help them, not in some way that you can't really help. But get engaged in a way that you can help. And so that started pretty early for me, and eventually I got an opportunity in the box business, and really the rest is history.

Well, those experiences when you're young— because that's, that's really what the customer wants too, because they don't want to get home and say, oh, I need some Elmer's glue, or I need this type of nail, or this type of hammer, or I really should use screws.

Right, that's right. No, you want, you want to be of value. To folks, right? That's what you really want to do is you want to sell a value and you got to ask the right questions. You got to keep asking the right questions for folks to keep coming back, right? So over time, over time, you know, it's a couple of counters there at the hardware store. Next thing you know, people are coming to my counter on a more regular basis. We start forming a relationship. They start realizing, hey, I'm probably going to ask them some questions because we've got to know each other. Hey, how did it go with your project? And so over time that just kind of fit right in along with the engineering background to say, hey, look, let's, let's, let's work on this together. How can we best find the best box for what you can do and make the most money that you can make? And then, you know, we're able to make a little bit of profit on what we're doing as well because we're of value, right? We're not overcharging, but we're of value more than just the commodity.

And I got to believe that your customers wanted to talk with you because you understood it from the engineering side.

That's right, that's right. You know, most people are just coming in saying, hey, here's what I do. And yeah, look, you've seen a lot of presentations. Look, man, I, I watched some of your things and I'm going, I don't want to be that guy that's asking the questions on the other end about, hey, you got the quarterly deal, you know, you got to kind of bring it all in at the last minute. What are we doing on a day-to-day basis to be of value to customers?

Yeah.

And when we're talking with customers, even to this day, we're not talking about all the things we have, all the machines we have, whatever else. We're saying, hey, we were out in the market and look what— look how your packaging looks today. Look how this is getting from point A to point B. And it could just be something of a crushed box because of the distribution. And it's like, hey, we want to talk about you, we don't want to talk about us. So we want to be of value in what we do. So that's, that's really been ingrained in me from, from the very beginning.

And how long did it take before it felt natural to you, or was it instant?

No, I'd say it took a little while. I mean, look, my first sales job, I don't know if you did this or not, or maybe others that may see this, but, you know, I'd pick a place that I wanted to go call on. And again, these are the days where you're just going up and knocking on the doors, right? True cold calling. And it's like, I gotta drive around the building 4 or 5 times before I get the nerve up to just go in and do it, right? And you go in all these different times and you say, hey, I'd like to see the buyer. I'd like to see so-and-so or whatever else. And then someone says, yeah, they'll see you. And then you're sitting there going, oh my gosh, what am I gonna do now?

Now we gotta do something. I can't just leave my card, right?

Right. I can't leave my card and run back and tell my, my boss I made so many calls today. Eventually it gets to a point where you are confident what you're doing. You've got a good team behind you, which is another big deal, is you got to have the best team behind you. And in doing that, you feel more confident to actually get things done. And, and in some cases, you might walk in the back door instead of the front door at that point because you really know what you're going after.

And from the outside People would think that packaging is a commodity.

Correct.

And if you let the customer treat it like a commodity, they will.

That's right.

How did you stay out of that trap?

Well, I think the engineering part helped quite a bit. I think asking the right questions about exactly what they're buying. If they've been doing the same thing for the last 25 years and been buying the same box or whatever it is, it's become a commodity to them. But if it's a customer that they change over and they've got new products and things going on at the same time, hey, this is This is someone I want to work with. I think the engineering part is some of it. I think the relationship is some of it. You ultimately, you gain confidence as you do it and you have stories to tell, right? We all have the stories of the successes and then we relate that to that prospect or customer that we're in front of.

And when you're working with other salespeople, did you see that they didn't have the passion or the interest in the details?

Absolutely. I mean, working with— look, we all look at customer service these days, which seems to be a lost art as well, but it's the same way you want to be sold. Recently, I went out with my son and he needed a new car. He was in a car accident. We go to a couple of different dealerships and ultimately we bought a more expensive car because he liked the salesperson and that person asked the right questions. They were both athletes and so they both had this connection that no one else could really do. And so, uh, he said, hey, even though this one's cheaper, Dad, I want to go back and buy it from that guy. And so we did.

Yeah, and that seems to be like a lost art, or is it?

Uh, no, I think it is. I think it's a lost art, but it's, but it's something that, look, we just have to spend time. Some of us that have had a few miles on us— and look, that's why I got into management. I mean, I got into management for sales. I've been a sales director, uh, currently as a senior vice president. It's to help people and to help some train some people along. with some of these experiences. And, you know, some of them say, hey man, you're, you're old and you, you, you know, you don't understand today. Look, it's a, it's a little bit different today, but it was in my day compared to the generations before. But I remember those few guys that kind of came to put their arm around me and said, hey, let me show you the ropes, let me bring you along a little bit. And so I think it's really our duty, uh, for those of us that have been doing this for a while to, to be like that. And so I appreciate what you're doing As well.

And so when you're looking for to hire salespeople, what do you look for?

I look for character the majority of the time. I mean, somebody that really is going to put in the work ethic, somebody that has integrity. I mean, look, a lot of dealmakers don't necessarily think of it with integrity, so to speak. But you got to be willing to be of service to folks.

Okay.

And I'm not— I don't want to make that as a broad statement. I can remember selling boxes and someone saying, hey, you're just like a used car salesman, which always seemed to be the worst representation, right? And it's like, hey, man, I know some real nice used car salesmen. But, but the facts are, is that you want to look for somebody that's willing to go the extra mile and willing to put in the work. I mean, look, there's plenty of people that'll pick up the phone 40 times a day and just let the numbers work. There's a lot of folks that I've met in the time that I was pushing people in sales and say, hey, look, you got to make these 40 calls. They'd say, that's not how I work. And as I learned the way that they work, they're more of a rifle than a shotgun person, but when they shoot, they typically get them. So again, the hit rates are higher for some than others, but really it's about the work ethic and they understand the approach and what they're selling. You know, knowledge is power, right? So if they've got the knowledge of who they're talking to, they got the knowledge of the product, they're going to be successful.

And who typically makes this decision within your customer base? Is it packaging engineers?

It can be a lot of times, and that's even changed a little bit. So let's say on a local and regional basis, you do have still buyers and you do still have people that are commodity buyers or shipping managers or whatever it may be. But if you're in the tier 1 CPGs or whatever, it's typically someone that's in a high-rise somewhere that's the head of procurement or whatever it may be. And so You have to be able to sell to all of those different areas, or at least have people within the organization that can talk to them.

And how do you know when you're going to lose a deal versus win a deal? What are those distinctions? I'm sure you've developed a sense for that.

Right. You're going to lose a deal a lot of times by facial expression of somebody saying, hey, you didn't meet our needs. Brian, you've probably done this too. You come up with the best presentation you've ever done in your life. This has got to be the one. You left, everybody somewhat said the right things, but their facial expressions said a totally different story. And you realize, hey, we did not get that deal at all because we used the wrong target information. They were trying to solve one solution and we presented something completely different because that was the— there wasn't enough homework done on exactly what we were trying to go after.

And what's important to people today? Is it other than cost?

Service. Well, look, service is a big deal today. Look, the corrugated box industry has gone through unprecedented times in the last 2 years with e-commerce and people getting more stuff at home. And so the, the supply and demand curve has been way out of whack. So in other words, instead of getting a lead time for a box that may have used to have been 3 to 7 days, it may have been 7 to 21 or 28 days to get that. And so trying to plan for manufacturing, distribution, or even promotionals kind of went out the window. Everything just started to really change. So services become a big deal, as well as supply chain and availability. Sustainability is big, right? Anything with paper is pretty huge these days. I think we've gone overboard sometimes. I'm not a real big fan of the paper straw, by the way. But anyway, but it's—

Save the turtles.

Right. But it's, look, it's all important to somebody. But it's, for me, I prefer a plastic straw. But the boxes and that type thing are still how commerce gets around. It's how we do commerce. in North America. And so, it's really a need, and you've got to have it when you need it. So, service, sustainability, availability through supply chain is important these days.

And when you get reps in, how do they prospect? Because I'm sure you get some inbound because it's an established company that people know of.

Right. Yeah, I think— go ahead.

When you prospect, do you prospect a procurement Product design, packaging engineers. I mean, is that a real, a well-known title in a company?

Yeah, I mean, it can be these days. The packaging engineer has definitely grown, uh, what's going on. But definitely, uh, someone in procurement, someone in marketing. If you're looking to do graphics-type packaging, you want to be in front of somebody that's, that's really making those decisions. Someone, again, you can help, uh, promote that product and get it out, uh, get it to the shelf and off the shelf.

Right?

Or in the aisleway and out of the aisleway. If you're trying to get it from point A to point B, sometimes you're talking to someone in shipping as your first point of contact because they're also not only shipping things out, but they're getting the returns and they give you feedback and data that just helps you develop whatever that strategy needs to be to be successful with that company.

And what kept you in this space?

It's always different, man. Every day is different. Yeah, it's an ex— it's a brown box and most people get bored to death with it, but I'm telling you right now, it's one of the most exciting industries in America. It's one of the largest industries. And it is— This continues to, to evolve and whatever that need is, technology. There's so many, there's so many things that are old. This is the way the box is made. The actual forming of a box is probably the same as it was in the '60s, '70s, and '80s. But the technology of how that gets done and all the different demands and reports, it's, it's growing and evolving for sure. So it's an exciting time.

And has the Apple effect hit other companies? Because if you look on YouTube today, the unboxing of like the Apple products becomes almost as interesting as the product.

For sure, for sure. So I mean, it's— and it's— for years we invested in putting printing on the outside, right? It needs to look pretty. Well, then theft took care of that, right? So you just deliver to your door and it's like, hey, there's the pretty box, we're going to take that. So now let's put the pretty stuff on the inside. So that's where, again, that opening and unboxing experience becomes such a big deal. So yes, that's helped us. And that's obviously during the pandemic when all the stuff was being delivered to the homes, it made a big deal of being able to catch people's eye at home as opposed to down the aisles that they weren't walking down.

Well, that's it. The first time I realized, like, why— like when I buy an iMac, it's not just in the Apple box, but the Apple box is put into yet another brown box.

That's right, that's right. So that way someone doesn't come and—

Right, see, $5,000 thing, right?

The nice gift you got for someone else, right? So, uh, anyway, but yeah, uh, and again, it's, it's, um, so many different industries that you can work with. So again, whether it's technology like an Apple and, and folks, or automotive industry, or the food industry, I mean, there's just so many industries that you get to either walk into and see how it's made or be a part of because you partner with these folks in these different segments, you know, for a career. And so it just, it can be different every day. It's an exciting industry.

And how do you block out your competition? Because you know it's going to go out for bid.

Right, right. Look, you have to be of service and you have to continue to reinvest and reinvent yourself to each one of those customers. So whether you're the salesperson that's leading it or the management or the ownership or whatever it may be, You have to continue to invest in the equipment and the technology to be able to make the boxes different and of best value. But you also have to understand exactly where your customer's going and try to get them ahead. So there's always ways to save money and do things that are way outside of the price of just the number that's on the spreadsheet, right?

Right.

So the bid that everyone puts together, you're showing, hey, these are really the valuable pieces we bring together, less damage, better utilization on the pallet, how much the cost is for shipping versus the box used today versus the new box. Again, that's where that engineering comes in and really helps lay all that out and really be an advantage to the salesperson.

So when you go into a new account, I'm sure the purchasing person's in the room and, you know, you ask, you know, so what's important to you, kind of open-ended, trying to get to what's behind The need, why you're there. And of course they say cost is number one, whatever. How do you get to the root of what's really going to cause the decision to go to one person versus another?

Well, I think it's, you know, again, are you getting honest answers or are you not? But you got to ask the question of why are you even looking? If you've got a great supplier today, why are you even looking? What are the pain points? Why did you pick up the phone? Why'd you return our call? I think it's just a way to start and just try to break down. For me, it's always been, hey, my parents named me Frank, so I'm pretty direct, and here's what I'm going to tell you. And so I just need to know what we're trying to do here, right? What are we, what are we going to do? And typically, just like what you just did now, is you get a smile, right? You start to, again, the facial expressions, you say, okay, now, now we've got a point to talk about. Let's, let's try to break down the walls. Sometimes it's just about listening. Hey, what are the pain points today? And someone will typically go off on what the pain points are today. And you got to listen and take the right notes and just, again, know the stories of what you've done in the past, what your company's done, and how you're able to solve the problem.

And among the people in the room, are you able to— I'm sure after the years— be able to read who the real decision maker is?

Sure.

The person who's going to fight for you, who's going to say it's more expensive, but we need to do it because—

A lot of times you got to watch the quiet one, right? It's the quiet one that's over there thinking and waiting, and they're trying to see what all is going on because there's another meeting after your meeting.

Yeah, right.

There's another meeting after your meeting, and the quiet one's going to say, well, here's what I saw, here's what, here's what I think. But there's also who's the stakeholder, because wherever that pain point may be is also the person who says, I think these people can solve my problem. And if that's a big enough pain point, then that's the person that you have to direct the attention to in that room.

And do they go through— there must be some type of proof of concept or technical beauty contest?

Yeah, it can be. So a lot of times, depending on what you're selling, so if it's just a brown box, you're going to do some transit testing, which you could do in a lab, or you can do a trial run where they're going to pack out so many boxes and send it out, or you come up with your creative team, you actually lay out, well, here's what a— here's what the design would look like, and you've got a rendering. You've maybe placed that rendering in the store aisle. Here's what it's going to look like on shelf or in the aisle and give people that. Or maybe you come in with a full mock-up, or maybe you've done a full mock-up and you took all their stuff off the shelf and actually put it out there and said, hey, we sat, we watched this for 2 days, and there was more that came off of this display than came off the shelf.

Yeah, and Has it evolved to the point where there's like marketing agencies that specialize on packaging?

Yes, definitely some marketing agencies that are out there, but most people do that in-house. A lot of times the agencies are helping with the new product launches. Again, Coke, Coke Zero, Coke Zero Cherry, Vanilla, you know, whatever it may be, they keep trying all the different flavors, right? And so you're just— the marketing companies are trying to see how they can put that out there. So they're multiplying the resources that they have.

And among the reps that you've seen, competitors, coworkers, what have they done wrong?

You know, a lot of times, again, going back to, you know, who are you talking to and what's the audience, they talk about themselves a lot. Hey, we have so many people, we have all these different things, and the buyers over there send an email, they're not really listening to what you have going or the team that's really responsible for this. or looking out the window. So I think for us overall, we really have, um, uh, seen, um, more people looking inwardly instead of outwardly. And I think that's how the customer service part has changed. It's like, hey, you'll get it when we get to it, as opposed to, hey, when you need it and how can we serve you?

Right.

And so I, I would say for me, in the last 20, 25 years, that's where I've seen the customer service side of it really change to where Competitors sometimes will get more production-focused about efficiencies and whatever it may be, as opposed to customer service. Are we managing to the budget or are we managing to the customer need? And eventually, I think it comes down to the people that win are the ones that are going after the customer need with an understanding of what they can do to actually make that happen.

And how have you coached the reps to not fall into that trap? Because immediate— because the clients pull you into that trap. Tell us about you and what you do and how you're different.

Again, so again, you create relationship with the customer, but you also create relationship with the rep. It's like, tell me what's going on, tell me how, how, how we got to this point, right? And you understand, okay, they did put them in the corner, they did kind of trap them in. And so it's like, okay, look, you've got, you've got to be able to bob and weave here just a little bit. And, and, and again, depending on what the situation is, it's like, hey, look, there's always an out. There's typically multiple ways out, but still able to get to the common goal of where they want to go.

And during the final and best offer stage, how do you hold your ground and know in the negotiations what's real and what's a tactic?

That's a great question. You know, there's, there's, I think of hundreds of different buyers and tactics and what they tried to get us to do versus what we what we wanted to do. I think the key is like, hey, what is a win and what is a loss? And if you know that going in, then you, you, you're not going to come out and do something that you shouldn't do. So if you're not sure about it, you got to be able to coach people and say, look, I need to get back to somebody on that. Okay, I know the deal is right here, we really want the deal. And if the deal is life or death, then you've taken a lot of that off the table and you're like, hey, just get the deal done. But typically, they're not all life and death. At least at this stage or for this certain size organization that I'm a part of, but it's definitely something to where you want to coach people to say, look, there's— here's what a win looks like, here's what a loss looks like. If you get nothing but loss, then walk away or say, hey, I've got to go talk to somebody about that. If it's about, hey, these are the winning signals and you've got, you know, 75 to 80% of those, man, let's go, let's get the deal done, don't waste another minute.

And have you noticed a particular characteristic between the very best reps you've worked with and the okay, the B players, the solid players?

Sure, sure. The high-stakes players are— look, it's no secret, if you're in sales, you like money, right? And you're driven by wins, you're competitive, right? So those that are trying to increase income, those that are all about, hey, I had so many prospects and this is how many I landed, what those percentages are, Or the fact that, hey, this person just doesn't like me and I want them to be able to— Don't like me. To give me one order, you know, because, you know, they don't like me, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna force them to give me one order. Uh, these are the— that's the competitive spirit, I think. I mean, look, people still buy from people. People buy from people that they like. You hear that a lot. People buy from people that they like that have knowledge. People buy from people that they like that have knowledge, that have good emotional intelligence. that are able to relate, that are able to create relationships. So I think it's— again, there's a, there's a variety of things that you can add on to that statement, but people still buy from people, um, for products like what we sell.

Well, that's a great point because too many people, it's the knowledge about the product, but it's really about understanding what the client wants to accomplish and getting them to real— almost therapy, like really pulling it out.

That's right.

Because they may not know.

Well, you've probably said this before. I haven't heard all of your podcasts. Sometimes you're the sales rep and sometimes you're the counselor, man. So I mean, that's just what it is. And if you're able to listen to what people are saying, I always say if you're able to spend 45 minutes with somebody, you're going to get to know them. Yeah, you know, if you're out in 15 minutes, I don't know that's your best prospect unless they were just busy and were fitting you in. But you get 45 minutes with somebody, you're gonna, you're gonna get to know about them, the company, and see an opportunity. And I think that's probably the other part, Brian, is that you have to be able to see the opportunity, and then have an understanding of how to game plan to somewhat capitalize on it or be of help to it, whatever that may be. You just got to be able to recognize the opportunity for the industry you're in, for the customer you're with.

Cool. Hey, Frank, I really appreciate your time today. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

Well, you can find me on LinkedIn, Frank Adams SC. And Reach out anytime. My contact information is on there, and I really appreciate the time with you, Brian. Appreciate what you do.

See, I think we're taught that building rapport is talking about the sports and weather, and it can be, but that's pretty far from what we do. What if you were able to make small talk about what you do, about what they do, and about You— what you have in common. And if you were to build that up into interest and maybe even some urgency and possibly action, that's what Start the Conversation, Get the Meeting's all about. It's that talent, that old-fashioned interpersonal skills that everyone's trying to crush into metrics. If you can't measure it, you can't manage it. Unfortunately, most of the stuff in sales you can't measure. You can't measure trust. You can't measure rapport. You can't measure a fondness for each other, a level of partnership and synergy. Oh no, there goes the KPIs. And so much of sales, I think, is being spoiled today by people who think you can reverse engineer it. How do you reverse engineer parenting or friendship or partnership or trust or having your back?

Those are—

they're feelings. There's sensations. There's comfort, right? There's not a number associated with it. It is a mammal-to-mammal connection. And we're trying to eliminate that from sales instead of accelerate it, because that's where the magic happens. What's the best marketing? Word of mouth. Everyone knows that. When someone you trust recommends somebody or some product or something, you, you take it from the relationship. Do we have the same taste? Do I trust their judgment? Those are the things that matter. And the reason we have salespeople is because we're selling to people, not just personas, not companies. It's always involved with people. And people talk about this. It's all about relationships. People don't give it credit. They don't put skills and priority to it and be able to really write it down and discuss it and analyze it. Because everyone thinks they're doing it. Nobody's saying, you know what, I need to build better rapport. I need to get better at this. Everyone thinks they're good at it. You know, because I deal with salespeople all day long. Like, I see the comments on my videos. And some of them are just like most of the sales reps, it's bragging. It's all about them instead of trying to learn, trying to understand. And they don't, a lot of times don't watch the video. They just base it off of the title or their initial reaction. And you're wondering, how deep are you going? To understand the client? Are you just going off of your initial reaction, or are you trying to enter their frame to understand it so that you can build it into our frame of the problem and the possible solutions? We're not in the reactive service business. Yes, Sales can feel like service, but service is doing what you're told. Selling's doing what's right. They're very different. Serving is taking orders. Selling is creating orders. The difference is enormous. But a lot of us, we get into, well, they want to do this. Okay. Is this the right thing to do? Is it the right time to do this? If we do this, is it moving it forward or is it really just accelerating the stall? Because I got to tell you, the clients do not know how to buy. That may seem like a surprise to you, but they were never put through buying school, decision-making school. How to Change the Company School. They're winging it. Now, if we're winging it, we've got 2 people who are winging it. What's the likelihood of success?

Uh, low.

And that's what really defines what happens at the end of the quarter. At the beginning of the quarter, we get all these opportunities. Everyone's interested. But can that interest be turned into urgency, turned into action, turned into a commitment? That's very different. And most leaders are telling me the forecast from the beginning of the quarter, the commits, the blood commits, all of that stuff melts down dramatically that last month of the quarter. Exponentially the last week of the quarter. Why does that happen? Because we don't know how to get the deal closed. We know how to close for a next step, but do we know how to get it through the organization? That is an art and a skill, and it needs to be proactively designed. Most people are treating sales like a video game where you start off, you, you play the best you can, and then you make a mistake, you fall into a trap, and it's game over. Then you start over again. Now, the problem with this in sales is that every time game over, you lose 4, 5 figures of potential Commission. That's the problem. Sales doesn't have a real good way to practice. It doesn't have a real good way to understand where you are and where you need to take it. This is what I faced when I was in the large complex sale. I didn't understand. Okay, you go to a nice presentation, do a proof of concept. You have the big cheese meeting. And sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. But I wanted control over it. I invested 3 months in this, 6 months, 9 months into this deal. And for it to not close, I used to say to myself, I could have taken a month off and enjoyed my life instead of, you know, getting up early in the morning, traveling to an account, you know, doing all this crazy stuff to get a deal done. And I made the decision, I'm going to become great at this. I am not gonna waste my time. I am going to guide people through this decision process. And I became a student of the game. And I used my engineering background as like, well, how would you solve this in a software program? You break it down into tiny pieces. You work on the pieces that get stuck. You are constantly trying to understand where you are, what can go wrong, and how to prevent it. Because once the game's over, everyone calls me, Brian, I, I saw game over. How do I get the game to win? And unlike the video game, in sales, sometimes you can, but it's really, really hard. It's so much easier to learn how the game is played And not hit game over. And a lot of us, we don't look at the game over and we just try, we keep hitting the joystick thinking that something's going to change. Eh, good luck with that strategy. This is your profession. Take the time right now. And this is a little challenge because I'm in the show notes is a little email that you can use to send to your manager. And I just added a couple of links to the videos of the people that have been in the course that have been on the show. The challenge to you is see if you can sell your company on paying for the course all at once. Now, this— I had this conversation with the rep and they were having a hard time with this. And I'm like, well, if you can't get your company, people who know, like, and trust you, to invest this tiny amount of money On you that you're gonna do on your own time, and it's gonna make you better with an ROI of less than a month. And probably if you can't increase your sales 10 or 20%, there's something wrong. Okay, so let's say you're doing $1 million a year, you're gonna do $1.1 million, $1.2 million, and you know, it's gonna bring your income up more than 10 or 20% because you're over your number, you're in accelerators, and you're like complaining about the cost of the course. It's peanuts. The real cost is in your time and in your energy and your motivation to do it because nobody is dragging you into a room, taking your phone away, forcing you to listen to some instructor, and then asking you to take a quiz after. That's old school. New school is you have to have the motivation, the curiosity, the desire to learn because it's all on you. Sorry, that's the new reality. Mama's gone, teacher's gone, it's just us right now. And for you to take that personal responsibility, the personal motivation to do it Is the difference between the best and the rest. It's up to you. Go to b2brevenue.com, check out the courses. I put that little email in the show notes below, bunch of links in there to great stuff. But take that email, it's a nice little simple one. Talk to your manager, sell your manager on the idea. Hey, this is this online course from this guy I've been listening to on a podcast. Here's some interviews with the people who have done the course and are crushing it. I want to take my game to the next level. I want to become great at this. I'll do it on my own time. All I ask is that you expense this and reimburse me. Now, I was a sales manager for a while.

If a rep—

not one rep ever came to me with that. No, they, they like to read books. Plus, they all thought they knew it all. You know, some, some were real good. A couple were A-players. But if they had taken that initiative, I would have signed that thing in a second because I want to reward initiative. People who take personal responsibility, not are just sitting there, what should I do next? What do you think I should do next? Next? What do you think's going to happen? They want people who are personally responsible, who have a backbone, who on their own are willing to extend themselves, learn, practice, become better. That's what coachability is. Coachability is not doing what you're told. Coachability is asking other people's feedback on how to become better. Are you that person? Or are you just the person smiling and nodding in service? It's up to you.

It's your career.

I hope to see you there. If you're already there, make sure you're checking out the office hours and the one-on-ones, the 2 last chapters. They're updated as I produce them. It's on a weekly basis. So you get fresh content every week. With great insights and ideas and approaches. We had one yesterday on this one question to get people talking. You know who you are. Within 2 hours, 3 hours, he sends me an email. He goes, 4 for 4. 4 replies for 4 questions asked. The same question he asked all these different people. And You know, just these immediate responses. Conversations are started, and that's where deals begin. It's a beautiful thing. Let's have fun. Let's sell smarter. We'll see you next time.

I was just going to give a bit of a testimonial, if that's all right, just to kick it off.

Only if it's positive.

No, it is positive. It was a— yeah, just because I started the course, I think, in June of last year, 2021. I got a few more months left of access, which is good. But I feel like it's been a transformative experience in my own personal and professional life. I was able to go from a period of a low sales slump in the middle of last year, in the summer and early fall, and then really was able to then come back and exceed my target by the end of the, by the end of the 4th quarter. And so the only other thing I would say is that it's also really differentiated me amongst people on the sales team in terms of focus and clarity of what's important. And now I feel really good about what I'm doing in terms of the approach of reaching out to customers and having those conversations and being focused, as opposed to just doing a lot of the other busy work on the side, like organizing resources and doing business analytics and all this other stuff. And so it's really been a noticeable difference with our executive team at, at my company. And so I just want to thank you for the content and for the these opportunities. And so I hope that helps if there's anybody new. It's— I'm a work in progress, but it's getting better.

Good.

Yeah.

And you're selling pretty hard stuff.