HOW TO WIN SELLING INTO THE MOST DIFFICULT OF MARKETS

On the Friday office hours for Closing the Complex Sale, we had a great conversation about why it's hard to adapt some of these more advanced selling skills to kind of have a process, a flow, and how do we integrate these skills into our skill set, into our calls, So that we can reduce the slippage, the delays, the commodity trap, all the things that kind of kill our deal. And what we came to the conclusion was that they don't feel natural at first. Like everything new that we try, uh, feels awkward. Try playing a new game. We're going to be talking about a game today, the game of golf. And what I love about the analogy of golf and sales is that they both look insanely simple until you try them. In golf, come on, you hit a ball into a hole. How hard could it be? In sales, you ask and answer questions. You talk to people all day. All you have to know is the answers, right? All you have to know is about the product. But then the deals don't close because the objective of sales is to sell. The objective of golf is to get that ball in the hole in as few strikes as possible, as few swings. And in sales, yeah, it can take more swings. That's okay. But if we leave it up to the client, if we're reactive, And how can you be proactive if you don't have a system, a process, a game plan? The thing is, you can maybe one step, but after that, it all falls apart. That's why we get ghosted. We don't get ghosted because people are mean. We get ghosted because there's no next step. There's not enough interest. They think they have Everything they need. No need for more. No need for more of you, Brian. But do they? And let's face it, they know the product will help them, will improve their company, their careers. But is it worth all the effort of getting it done? It's not the decision of Does it match or will it help? We're past that. What we're up against now is how do we get it done? And, uh-oh, they may not know at all. Were you ever taught how your company purchases? Did you go to decision-making school at your company? I've never seen one. And companies, certainly every company I ever worked at, They didn't want you buying stuff. They want you working. So when you want to try and buy something, that's an unnatural act. We're going to get into this in this conversation today. But ask yourself, you know, am I really not stretching myself because I don't feel authentic doing it? Because doing anything new isn't going to feel authentic. It's not that what you're doing is wrong. It's what you're doing doesn't feel natural. So what do you do? You go back to what does feel natural. And that's kind of winging it. Not having a plan, not having objectives, not understanding what could go wrong and having a contingency plan for it, having a structure to the call, but still Staying authentic. That's the hard part, right? Now, with golf, you see everybody from like Tiger Woods, probably the top golfer in our generation at least, and you see him and there's certainly an intensity there. We saw him on TV as a kid. He's been playing golf since he was 3. And then you see There's that guy who drinks beer while he does it and smokes and is probably 100 pounds overweight. And then we kind of admire that, don't we? Because that to us is authentic. But is Tiger Woods any less authentic? It's just a different style. And that's where we get lost in sales. We think if someone else doesn't sell with our style, that it's wrong. Nope. The objective is still met. You can have the objective met with infinite number of styles. That's why I don't sit here and tell you, say this, don't say that, because that's a style thing. You can implement sales with all kinds of styles. I've interviewed close to 1,000 great sales reps. Very different styles. Maybe not completely different, but they're different people. Some people focus on this or that, but it all works because they're focused on the objective and developing their skills so that it becomes part of their style. Too often what we do is we get comfortable at a certain level and that, that's it. No need to learn anymore. No need to try anything else. If it doesn't work, it's very easy to blame someone else. Let's get into this interview. I hope you enjoy it. And you know the fastest way to get authentic at something that's new? Repetitions. We all know this. If you wanted to— let's say you're not a golfer, you want to become a golfer. A golf coach would probably tell you to swing a couple hundred times a day. Get your body used to that motion. Get your brain and your body connected with it so it feels authentic, natural to you. It's those reps. So how do you do that in sales? Lose a bunch of deals. Go out there. Go ahead. Go out there, call a bunch of strangers. Ah, trial and error. What, what could go wrong? Well, there's a couple hundred K of lost business could go wrong. What if you had a way of verbally practicing sales where there was no downside? You get feedback, you get a little coach built in there. That's what Brevity Pitch does for you. Brevity Pitch gives you the capability to practice your unique calls differently every time. It's not reading a script. It's conversing bidirectionally with a realistic voice, with realistic responses based off of history. This is something that we've been needing in sales forever. We all played ringy-dingy that first year, and then we get a little comfortable with sales and we stopped. And when results didn't come through, we always can blame something else— territory, manager, comp plan. Ah, bad day, bad day. But the complaints don't pay. The only thing that pays in sales is results. So if you want results to go up, check out brevitypitch.com. The people who are using it, the insane feedback that I'm getting, because we all know it works. How can you get 5 years of experience in a couple of months? You have to practice. You have to try it. Does the Air Force allow some kid out of college to get into a $60 million jet? No, they put them in a $2 million simulator and let them play for a while, get used to the motions, the routines, the sequence, so it feels authentic. You don't feel like you're putting on the pilot voice. Now, isn't that smarter? Well, or do you want them practicing with a $60 million jet in their life? Clearly not. Here we go with the interview. I'll sum it up at the end. Hey, Garrett, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Yeah, thanks, Brian. Appreciate you having me. Big fan of the show, so this is cool. Yeah. So Garrett Whitmore, been in sales for a little under 12 years, all with the same company. So I'm a little bit of an old soul in that regard. But yeah, grew up here in Richmond, Virginia, went to school here. And like I said, I've been in sales for 12 years. So excited for the conversation. Cool.

And why sales for you?

Well, accidentally, like everybody else, right? You didn't plan on it.

The only thing I could get.

Yeah. So I actually studied political science in college and had aspirations for law school and quickly realized the ROI of that in terms of what I could get done with law wasn't gonna happen. So yeah, like everybody else stumbled into sales accidentally, but it's been great ever since. So my father was in medical device sales for J&J for 25 years. So I guess I have the bug a little bit. My brother's also in sales. So yeah, that's, that's probably the best answer I can give you.

Yep. And that first year, what was that like? Because you started off doing technical recruiting, right?

Yep. So my firm, my firm does a combination of IT staffing and professional services. When I started almost 12 years ago, you kind of have to run the business from the ground up on the staffing line of business. So yeah, first year, very tough. I remember multiple Friday nights driving home like, I'm done with this. Like, what am I— what am I getting myself into? Like, maybe I should try to go to law school or whatever. So a lot of effort, not a lot of cash. Typical kind of runaround. But I'll tell you, like, the building blocks of that first year in terms of what you learn and the skills you develop are invaluable. So I remember vividly, and I try to tell myself even now when things are going well, not to stay too far removed from that first year.

Yeah. What about that first year to really set it up for you, man?

Learning how to hear the word no and don't call me and, you know, other stuff that I can't say on the podcast. But yeah, you learn, you learn how to, you learn how to sort of develop that grit, right? And I played college golf at JMU College in Virginia. And, you know, so I always really loved the grit and the sort of the, you know, eat what you kill, so to speak, and was also used to tough feedback. So I think the first year really was you're making 1,000 phone calls or you're working late or you're working on weekends, but you're not seeing that show up in your paycheck, right? So I think over the years you learn how to not only continue to work hard, but how to work smarter and how to do things in more of a, you know, to make it more efficient in terms of how you can drive revenue. So yeah, the first year was just a lot of effort, not a lot of cash. That's the best way I can summarize it. Probably similar to most of your listeners, right?

First year is pretty tough.

Yeah, it is still tough in certain days, but, you know, I think, you know, again, I mentioned earlier, I'm with the same company, so I've kind of built up that, that skill set internally, right? But, um, yeah, a lot of, a lot of long nights, a lot of long drive homes, drives home on Friday nights thinking like, what am I doing? Why did I get myself into this? Why am I still here?

And then you kind of either picked or were assigned a very tough territory. Yep.

So as you've alluded to in previous podcasts, I've been basically selling into the government my entire career since I got into the sort of what we call outside sales. Initially federal government. Now I do all state and local for Commonwealth of Virginia. Um, so to your point, it's a, it's a crash course in selling effectively, understanding contracts, understanding how How folks buy, understand how the pace is very different than selling into a commercial enterprise, right? They don't have money falling off the trees like the big boys do, right? So yeah, it was good. But I will say, even that first year in like the real, you know, quote unquote sales job, we call it account manager, same thing, right? You're, you're on the road, you're meeting with people, you're trying to get in the door and establish value. And it's a lot of blind faith that first year. So it wasn't really until I want to say 2 years or so, maybe even longer, that I started to see a lot of ROI in my, in my sales career.

Wow.

And since then, I've kind of split territories, I think 3 or 4 different times. And, you know, now I'm sort of in a player coach role where I oversee a team but also have my own book of business. Then I also have kind of a secondary, like, national role. But, but I always think back, like, in terms of those first 2 years in sales, because it's kind of separate from the recruiting piece. It really is just like the quality of the activity and how you're actually building your brand within your customer base.

Yeah. And when did it, the light bulb go on where it went from a grind to kind of fun or financially rewarding to—

Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. So, well, when your paycheck looks different, that's when the light bulb really goes off, right? But I would say, you know, I think when you start to get some, you know, you get that call on a Thursday saying, hey, you know, we want to, we want to issue a statement of work, right? We want to actually use you for this book of business. Or, hey, you know, we've, we've had a few different projects coming down the pipeline. Your company was what I thought about from our, you know, multiple lunches or dinners or whatever. So I think just when you start to really click and get from that over that hump of discussion, discussion to, hey, we're actually signing a PO or, or an SOW. I think that's where that, that sort of bolt of confidence comes through. And, you know, there's really a fine line between that and just living in that, you know, general vendor community where you sort of get lost in the shuffle. So I think, I think for me it was just when that happened, right? It sounds kind of basic, but really the light bulb went off when you, when you can realize, hey, I'm actually having the right dialogue with these folks. I'm getting wins. I'm getting, I'm getting statements of work. And then that builds your confidence. And then what you find is like in this roundabout way is now your messaging gets even better because now you're selling with confidence, right? Whereas before you were just kind of, okay, this is the playbook. This is what I should be saying. Cool. Never happened for me. So I think when that happens, that's where it really takes off. Yeah.

And did your company have much traction within the state of Virginia before?

Yeah, we did. But it wasn't anywhere near what it, you know, what it could be. Right. And still we're, we're still climbing. So we had a presence in there and we were doing well, but we just had some untapped revenue streams from either direct business or through partners that just needed some extra attention. And I think when we went to specializing, just, you know, because when COVID happened, and this is interesting time, but I actually made the territory shift right before COVID So I'm like, oh man, like now I went from half commercial, half federal to all state and local in the states, or like, what did I do to myself? But I really honed in on that as a specialty and just was 100% state and local for Virginia. And You kind of have to force feed yourself all the knowledge of the Commonwealth, the contracts, the good, bad, and the ugly. And I think ultimately, you know, we, I realized, hey, besides just doing direct business, there are so many revenue streams that we're not even looking into. And, you know, fast forward 4 years later, it's one of the top growth markets in our, in our company for state and local. So it's a good thing.

So your company understood what it's like to sell to state and local.

Yeah, so like many big companies, we're vertically split. So our government practice has, you know, your state, local, your federal, your higher ed. So we've had a very rich state and local practice across the country for some time now. But, and, you know, it's politically, right, it's harder in some states than others, right? So in Virginia, we were doing well, but again, we had some— we could apply some things learned in other states towards Virginia, which is what we did. And that ultimately led us to Accelerating growth.

And for the people who have never sold to state and local, could you kind of bring up why it's different and harder?

Yeah, you know, I've kind of come to appreciate it, almost prefer it. You know, it's, it is very much around, I mean, the contractual piece and your barrier of entry is the first thing to be understood, right? It's not as simple as, hey, here's a statement of work, can you sign it? It's, hey, I have to go through a a certain, you know, layer of a cooperative purchasing agreement or a resale contract, or I have to get through— maybe you have to be a certain, you know, whether you're a small or women-owned minority-owned firm, you may have to go in with that route and then also wait 6 months for them to review it. So it can take the timeline and the complexities of that. You have to really lean into and not fight it. And I found that when I went from commercial to government, I had to learn that on very quickly. It was like, okay, well, this is not as simple as, hey, hurry up and sign this. It's, hey, we'll take 3 months to redline that one sentence and we'll get back to you. And yeah, we'll see you in a few months. So it's like that whole different— that paradigm is so much different in government. And then, but I also think too, you know, the funding mechanisms are different, but there's also, there's more things available from like a federal grant or a state general fund. So I think there's some cool ways that you can do it. And what I like about state and local is there are actually a lot more ways in terms of creative ways to engage than people might think. So what I've loved about that is it's, it's kind of opened up my eyes to different ways to engage and create value. And I would— the last thing I would say is there's so much more business than, than people think in state and local especially. There are so many large agencies that, that tie into it. I mean, case in point, during the pandemic, state and local governments got all that CARES and ARPA funds, and I ended up having one of my best years ever in 2021 because of that, right? So So there are a lot of hidden values, I would say, in public sector that people just, oh, it's government, it's slow, it's hard. There is a little bit of an inaccurate depiction of that, in my opinion.

Yeah. And I did mostly federal. So I understand what you're up against. And I like the part you describe the areas that you do like, because sometimes they're more open to taking a meeting than commercial is.

Yep. And in some ways, I mean, and most big companies have, you know, government and commercial, but in some ways there can be less split traffic from a vendor community, right? Because these guys are getting calls from, you know, commercial to IT software, IT hardware, IT resale, IT staffing, IT services, systems integrators. And, you know, it's not as much, but I always tell my team, you know, the biggest thing we need to focus on is differentiation. And that's it, right? Because these guys are getting those calls from those, that community all day long and they all sound the same. Hey, this is John from so-and-so company and I want to take time to learn about your business. And then they get into the meeting if they get it set and it's just an interrogation of 40 questions and it's the same questions that everybody else asks. So, you know what I've, and I also think too, it's like, man, these vendors or these managers probably think they have to work hard because they have to answer 40 questions on every meeting. So You know, I've told my team, just, it's all about differentiation, right? How do you go out and show up differently? And that isn't always asking 1,000 questions. It can be sharing a point of view, almost like a free consult, right? To where you're talking shop about that, that challenge with that agency or this, this national trend. And it becomes almost a, almost like 2 guys having a conversation at a barbecue, right? So, so I think there's less foot traffic at the state level, but I still think those concepts apply.

Yeah, for sure. You kind of have to take it more like an account manager or a partner versus a vendor.

Yeah. And, you know, exactly. And I think when we talk about actually selling, it's showing up and having those discussions. It's not being able to take an order, right? It's not being able to—

There's no order taken.

Yeah, exactly right. And when you get to the point of taking orders, enjoy it while it lasts, right? So there's that kind of that juxtaposition of people who just do account management and take orders and they, you know, their customer service, they're, they're very yes sir, yes ma'am, whatever you need. And then there's also the, the kind of the, the folks that like to go out and, you know, hunt, right? And be on their own and enjoy the messiness of, of getting in front of folks or going to conferences and adding value. And I think, I think that ideal salesperson kind of lives right in the middle to where they can do both at the same time. But also just understand that, like, you know, this is a game at the end of the day, right? This is a qualitative profession. It's not around 1 2 3. If I have 10 meetings, I'm gonna, I'm gonna grow X amount of revenue. It's a very intangible, messy game. Sales is. And I think folks who can really understand that and live and breathe it ultimately spend their time where they're supposed to. And then from there, grow revenue.

And I like the term game because game kind of condenses something complex into something understandable.

Exactly. I mean, really, I mean, it really is kind of like, you know, like I was at a conference yesterday running around and meeting with folks and trying to get in front of this person because if I got in front of that person, they could put in a word for this person who controls this procurement. So it's like, it's like, man, this is kind of like in a roundabout way, like almost like a scavenger hunt. It's fun. It's like, am I really getting paid for this? Some ways you have to kind of pinch yourself a little bit. But yeah, I mean, I ultimately think it's really around just how do you sound different from everybody else who's calling on that person? And that comes from preparation, right? And I, I harp on that big time. But at the end of the day too, it's really around, can you intrinsically know that this client wants to know about this, but you're gonna go about it in a route that's not traditional. You're not gonna ask them 30 or 40 questions and pepper them and then follow up 3 weeks later and say, hey, just wanna follow up, let's connect again. You know, so I think that's just the biggest thing. And, and there are so many sales professionals, as you know, in the market today. And Um, the training has gotten really good, but at the end of the day, you can, you have to take training from the practice field to the field. And I think that's the biggest thing where people fall down.

Right. Because in state and local, you don't have the profit motive.

Right.

You don't have a competitor. You, you have a competitor. They don't. Right. The state doesn't compete with federal government. Funding is bizarre, to say the least.

Yep.

Yeah. How did you learn all that?

It was kind of just a, you know, Google was my best friend for a while, right? And, and ask honestly, you know, and I, we have a lot of, we have a partner ecosystem where we work with large integrators and SIs and, you know, I have some good relationships where I would just ask and say, hey, like, is this correct? Or what does this, what does this acronym mean? You know, because the government loves acronyms. So does our, so does our company too. So it's really just kind of, you know, Going from when I entered the territory to now, it was very much a build a plane, then flight, right? Understand what these cooperative purchasing contracts mean. Understand, you know, how we have to engage or what we can't do, right? So it was a lot of Googling, a lot of asking for help, a lot of probably should have known that when I met with this guy to begin with, but now I know it now, so it's okay, you know. So there was a lot of that, but it was, you know, years and years of just research and immersing myself in the territory. And, you know, I mentioned earlier I studied political science, and I always joke now that I'm using my major finally because I'm selling it to state and local government. So, you know, when someone says block grant or categorical, it's like, oh, I remember I had that in State and Local 101 in college. So I'm using my degree now, um, in some aspects.

And what do you wish you learned back the first year that you, you know now?

Oh man. Uh, don't take it so seriously, you know, and I, and it's easier said than done when you're fighting paycheck to paycheck as a kid out of college and then you spend your whole tab at the bar that weekend. And now you're like, okay, I gotta pay the, I gotta pay the car payment. I gotta pay, I gotta pay rent.

Bailed out.

Only once. No, I'm joking. No, I, I think it's really just around like, this is a profession and it's serious. But at the end of the day, like, don't put so much pressure on yourself to, to be perfect around this exact message or, or calling the perfect person, right? We, I think we tend to overthink it sometimes in sales because at the end of the day, the more and more pressure we put on ourselves and the more we try to sound like a something like that, that we're not, the worse it becomes for the person on the other end of the phone or, or the email. So I would say find ways to relax, be yourself, apply the prep and the methodology, but then at the end of the day, let your natural personality take over. And I think earlier on I forced it a lot, and I tried to, I tried to almost do something I, that wasn't really me or, or my process. And I think over time I realized It's hard. Sales is hard, but it's not as hard as we make it out to be sometimes. I think sometimes we become our own worst enemy. We get in our own way.

Yeah.

And I tell my team the same thing. It's like, you guys are overthinking it or you're getting in your own way. You have the knowledge, you have the prep. I've seen you do it. Just go and do it. You know, it's a game. So that's what I would say.

Yeah. Because I think too many people feel they have to act the part, talk like a rep, say what a rep would say.

Which is what your clients don't want to hear. They don't want to hear you talk like a Yeah. So, I mean, but there's a fine line between like showing up and winging it. You know, we have some of these—

Don't wanna wing it either.

Yeah. And I know a lot of guys who, and they're more in a commoditized sale. It's not so much complex, but they'll show up and just, you know, oh, just all you have to do is pick up the phone and talk to them, or hey, just show up and do this. It's worked for me for 30 years. I'm like, well, yeah, but selling printers is different than selling an enterprise cloud solution. Right. And nothing against that, but it's a different ballgame. So I think there's a fine line between that, but then also being like this very scripted, if I do A and B, C will happen. And I think, like I said, that, that middle ground is where I think the personality sell and the preparation and content meet together almost like in a Venn diagram. I think that's where the best sales folks live.

Yeah. Like golf, you can't try and swing like someone else.

Yeah. Yeah. I've tried that too. It doesn't work.

But then it takes thousands of swings to feel natural at it.

Yep. It's— and it's— there are a lot of cool similarities that you can draw between golf and sales. And, you know, in sales you have a pre-shot routine, you know, but then when you come to— comes on to play, you trust it and you play it and you let your natural instincts and personality, I say, but your natural game take over. All the preparation, all the practice was on the driving range or the putting green. But when you get on the course, it's art, right? It's very much around You know, you instinctually know what to do and then you hit different shots, but the natural flow of the game. So I always say, like, you know, I don't think there's any science in sales besides just the content. I think it's mostly an art and a profession and a performance, as you said, right? So I think that's where the cool thing you can take over. And honestly, in sports in general, right, being prepared, working as part of a team, but then once it comes time to be on the court or on the course, it's an art form. At that point.

Yeah. So, but, but that's why the coach has you do the certain things hundreds of times.

Exactly. Yep. Yep. So no, it's a good point.

And how long does it take to learn the rules of golf? 15 minutes?

Yeah, exactly.

And a lifetime to become good at it.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yep. 100%.

And I think that applies directly to sales.

Yep. Yeah. And the other thing too is, is you asked me what I would have done differently earlier. I would have taken clients on the golf course much earlier than I did now. Missed opportunity.

And people would think that government folks wouldn't want to do that.

Yeah, that's a good point. And, you know, like I mentioned, our partner ecosystem is really where that comes into play because we're, you know, it's business to business at that point. So, you know, in my role too, and, you know, I'm, like I said, I'm in this player coach role, which I like, you know, you get to do a little bit of oversight and management, then you still have your finger on the trigger, right? You still get to close stuff. So in that regard too, it can be internal, right? But yeah, it's a good point.

And the thing about public sector that's completely different than commercial is in public sector, the reps who do what you're doing build an ecosystem, system integrators, resellers, other vendors that aren't competitors.

Yeah. And that's what I said earlier. I think we were, we were not tapping into as many revenue streams as we could have, right? Because the SI ecosystem, you know, alliance or channel partners, you know, different SaaS companies that we can liaison with, within a customer, you know, resell contracts, even partnering with other firms that do what we do, but maybe they have a smaller footprint and we can help them kind of scale. And then there's always the direct route, you know, so Yeah, I think that's the cool thing that I like about government as well, is there's just so many options to engage more than what's on the surface, right? So, and then you have the contractual options, you have the funding mechanisms are so different. If you really take the time to learn all of it, you almost in some ways think that public sector has more of an ability to scale than private sector. You know, and, you know, I know some guys who in our office, they have one enterprise account. That's their entire portfolio. But the complexities of that are so much different. Whereas if you have an entire state like I do, you quickly realize that, and I also have a local government as well, you quickly realize that the ability to engage in some of these agencies is not as hard as you think it is. You know, there's, there's not as, you're not calling, you know, the enterprise app development team isn't 300 people like it is at an enterprise, you know, it could be 20. So, yeah, there's just, again, going back to the creativity, that's I think what I enjoy the most about staying local.

And what do you look for in a rep when you're hiring or you're—

Yeah, that's a good question. Let me know when you figure that out. But I think I don't look for the quintessential, you know, A-type personality that's, you know, easy to get along with. They want to go have a beer after work. I look for folks that are very inquisitive and question things and like to understand why things happen to where, you know, if they're with a client, they're gonna ask the right questions and understand it, but they're also gonna be, you know, inquisitive about, okay, well, walk me through how this helps your environment, or hey, why wouldn't you do this? Or, or walk me through how this is gonna get you from point A to point B. So I look for folks that are very business-minded, but they also have a certain sense of curiosity that really sparks a customer's mind. And I think that's an intangible that it's hard to necessarily get in an interview. But I do, you know, the typical stuff like, you know, work ethic and organizational skills. That's kind of table stakes. But I, I really like to find folks that ideally have experience in sales, but they, they have that certain, like, curiosity bug that just makes me think they would be able to further qualify a customer's needs without being the typical, hey, let me follow a script. Let me go in and ask the same 20 questions, right? So that's the biggest thing.

And have you found it that, you know, because in commercial you always look for a champion, the per— the change agent, the person who really wants to do this.

Yep.

They have to help you run the gauntlet.

Yep.

In state and local or even in federal, trying to find a champion who both has the drive but also has the internal credibility.

Yep.

To change?

Yeah.

Or do you have to take that role on yourself?

I think it's situational to the end client, but I, I have found that in especially some of the bigger public sector clients, you have the ability to find folks that maybe aren't in, in a decision-making role, but can be that champion. And then ultimately you find out that they are the ones that behind closed doors said, hey, we should use this company for this, or hey, we should shortlist them. So I, and, you know, with the business that we're in, in, you know, staffing and consulting and services, right? We have folks that we are placing on these client sites that are the eyes and ears to what's happening. So in some ways they can be our champions or folks that bump up against them.

True.

So, you know, and, but in our professional services side of the business, it's different, right? You have to kind of go in and find those champions. So, you know, it's, and I think sometimes too, if you find the right person, they can really be sort of your inside sales channel in some degree, right? Around, Where is this project coming from? How did we get the funding? What roadblocks am I gonna run into? You know, is this gonna be something that's wired for somebody else? So I think it's situational. I've had times where I've had to do it myself, but I've also found times to where we find that right person that you click with and they, they don't mind being that kind of, you know, I almost call them like a principal consultant. They can sort of do that for you. Yeah.

And do you run into a lot of people who explain why it's impossible to do anything?

Never, never, never seen that. No, I've never heard people make excuses. I've never done it myself, obviously. Um, no, I, uh, yeah, for sure. Right. I mean, I think, and that's where it goes back to like the person that we identify, you know, especially for sale. That's like, are you, are they someone that understands that this is going to be hard, that they're not going to just show up and have one meeting and, and hit the yearly sales goal? Um, they can handle adversity, right? That's another thing I would look for. They can handle rejection. They can, they can see that this is an investment for A year, two years before you really see the return on investment. So I think folks that have done that before, first off, are great. But I do think there's something to be said for: I have a territory. I'm going to attack it with this exact strategy, and I'm not going to worry about the results right now. I think that's a very rare skill set.

Yeah, because it's not stimulus response.

Exactly.

You know, faith pretty much that you're doing the right thing.

Most most sales folks, right, are A type, right, or A type-ish, and they want to have quick wins. They want to. see something happen. They— and especially if you're an athlete, it's like, you know, I want to, I want to see a quick result, whether it's winning a game or scoring a touchdown or whatever it may be. Um, it's, it's against our primal nature to not do that. So you— it's a very rare breed to find someone who is okay with that. And to your point, isn't always knocking down your door the next day saying like, woe is me, and, you know, this territory sucks, and I don't— I want to leave, you know. But that never happens.

And how would you keep your head on straight that first year? Because it'd be easy to go to law school, get an MBA, go sell something else.

And then you're looking back and I have friends now who have done that and have looked back and said, man, I should have been in sales. You know, that's a good question. I think there was some blind faith. I think we had a, you know, our company has a great culture like a lot of other companies do, but I think there was some management there that really kept me in check and talked me off the ledge a couple of times. But I really, I really thought it was, you know, I'm not going to come in and quit. I'm not going to be that guy that, you know, quits when it gets hard, or I'm not going to quit after the first year. I gave myself a 2-year window, which I thought was appropriate. But that first year was just really around keep doing the right things, keep, you know, it'll happen, you know, for you. It sounds simple, but it was really just discipline around show up every day, work hard, Try to have the right attitude. Some days harder than others, and do what you were taught to do, and ultimately it'll come to fruition. And I sort of had this in some ways start over when I got into the account manager job. Same exact song and dance, right? So now when I, when I see folks that have started out, whether it's in our company or other companies, and you know, they jump ship after 9 months, and then the next company they do the same thing, and it's like this revolving door. I'm always wondering, like, how do they keep getting hired by these companies if they've never showed anything? You know, it's like they must interview well. So I think I'm— again, I'm more of an old dog in that I've been with the same company, not for blind reasons. There's reasons as to why, but I think you have to be able to give yourself the ability to fight through hard times and be resilient, because if not, this is not the profession for you. There are a lot of other easier ways and less stressful ways to make $70,000, $80,000 a year than this, right? But So I think it really boils down to what person are you? What do you want? What's important to you? Is it money? If money's not top 2, I'm a firm believer sales is not for you.

Yeah.

And honestly, I think it should be number 1. But if it's not top 2, I have a, you know, I've gotten the back and forth about this around, you know, we want to do this and now I'm like, that's all great, but you are gonna be miserable if you are not money motivated in this job.

Right.

So I don't know, but I think long answer to your question, but I really think those are the big important things.

Yeah, because your mind is constantly saying, why, why am I doing this? Why are we—

Yeah, why am I torturing myself? Even some days, you know, I was dealing with some client, you know, fires this morning. I'm like, man, what am I— this was supposed to be a nice easy day. And then you walk into the day, it's like fire here, fire there. But yeah, I think you have to, like I said earlier, you have to kind of love the messiness of it and the intangibles of sales because it's not a clock in at 8 o'clock, sit in your spreadsheets, go on this meeting and go home. It's not as organized as that. So you have to really embrace that and like that, you know, almost, it's almost a lifestyle, right? In some regards because, you know, early on you might be working 60, 70 hours a week. I certainly was and I wasn't making any money. And now some weeks, you know, you may work 40 hours, and but you're making more money. So it's, it's, it's not— it doesn't make any sense, but that's the beauty of it.

Cool. Hey, really appreciate your time. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

Yeah, thanks for having me, Brian. Uh, yeah, I'm on LinkedIn like everybody else. Garrett Whitmore. Happy to connect and answer any questions. And thanks again for the time.

The good thing about listening to salespeople who have to sell in a very tough market And state and local was pretty tough. I, I had a little dabble into it when I kind of covered public sector, and it's pretty hard. They don't have a profit motive. They're large bureaucracies. A lot of people there, um, are less than receptive. So what ends up happening is you have to find a smarter way of selling. And what I see in the public sector a lot is people get the ecosystem. That means kind of selling with multiple partners, or at least communicating with them and coordinating with them. And people, commercial people say, why would you need to do that? In commercial, you may not need to do it, but could it help? And honestly, What I found was if you can find the vendor that they buy before you, for instance, in software, they always pick the cloud vendor before they pick a lot of the applications that go on top of it. Maybe the cloud vendor would be a good person to partner with. Or you're selling to HR, why not talk to the people who are selling to IT? They probably have some insights, some ideas, some feedback on what would work with that organization. Not the same people, but it's the same organization, the same purchasing process, the same restrictions, and the same leadership. And that may seem like extra work, and it is extra work. But it might help. But a lot of people don't see value to that. If they're not interested in buying right now, maybe they'll come back. The clerk mentality, which is dominant today, you know, the B-player, the wing-its, are really— how can you be more than a clerk if you don't have a plan? You can't be proactive because there's no plan. I had a manager once, and, you know, he was charming, kind of old-school sales guy where it was all about personality and relationships solely. So they would meet with him, and his really only tool to get them to buy now was discounting. And that's the most expensive way to sell. He was semi-effective with it, But it could only work really with new or existing customers. New customers would find it a little suspicious that he's offering a discount before winning the deal. But if you have a system, a process, you know where you are and you know where you have to go. The problem is the one we have is typically what the company gave us. Which does work when it's warm inbound and they want to buy. It falls apart when they're either cold outbound or they don't know if they want to buy. Then what do you got, discounting? Why not have a system? Why? Because it helps you understand what you're doing. Imagine playing a video game blind. Where all you hear is, you know, the things that go wrong and right. That's kind of what we're doing in sales today. We really don't know the game we're playing, and we're going from reacting, typically answering questions, asking for the order, falling into the commodity trap. I— if I see one more post on LinkedIn about a sales rep whining that a prospect ghosted them. It's like, why wouldn't they ghost you? You gave them everything they asked for. They assume communication is solely on a need-to-know basis. From a customer standpoint, that makes perfect sense, you know, because go look for a car or TV or A house, and they're going to follow up. But unless you need something, do you really want to get into the objection-handling death spiral with them? Probably not. You got what you needed. You know what it is, you know how it works, and you know what it costs. That's the commodity trap. Now, what if you didn't give them everything they needed? What if you stretched out that conversation to get what you needed? You didn't get what you needed. They got what they needed. So then you have to ask, who sold who? That's pretty much what a clerk does, a cashier, a helper at the lumberyard. What do you need? Make some recommendations. Here they are. Let me ring it up. Thanks for coming in today. But is that really how we need to sell? Most people that we are working with like the idea. They think it would help them personally, but they have zero economic authority. You know how much a first-line manager can spend at a big company, even a small company?

Zero.

You know what a second-line manager can sign off on? Probably zero. These things have to go very high in an organization, much higher than you think. Ask your manager, how much can you spend on a non-company credit card without getting someone else's approval? It's zero. This is something that You know, I learned the hard way. You think you're talking to a decision maker, but what decision? Which product? Let's say they pick you. Doesn't mean they're going to buy you. Those are 2 different decisions. And if you don't know how to guide them, it naturally will fail. Why? Because it's hard. If it was easy, let's say they had a corporate credit card and they could put it on there. That's much easier. Then it is their decision. Then they expense it and then justify it later. But if you have to go through the procurement process, you got to know what that is. And I'll tell you right now, you know, when I did this on-site all the time, no one ever knew. No one. Not once. Does that mean they're dumb? No, that means they didn't know they needed to know that. They didn't understand why the deal was dying. Everyone assumes it because the champion gave up, or they picked something else, or they don't know what they're doing. That can happen too, but what you need is much more control because you're Spending your time on it, and you cannot get that time back no matter what. If you really want to learn about sales, certainly the complex sale, go to b2brevenue.com. Or you can listen to the excuse in your head. How much is that paying you? You know, all that rationalization why you wing it, uh, because it doesn't feel authentic. And it— I agree, it doesn't. But did the first sales call you make feel authentic? How long did it take? I always ask that question in the interviews. How long did it take before it felt like it was the right place for you? A lot of people, it's years. But those years are going to pass whether you have these skills or not. And you think you have them now. Look at your paycheck. Are you making half a million, a million a year? You probably don't have those skills. Your company teaches you how to be a clerk because they assume the market needs their product, and it does, but it doesn't know how to buy it. The company assumes that. When I talk to CEOs, most don't have an idea of how sales works. And they all complain about how many salespeople are hitting them, and they wonder why their salespeople are having challenges. Go to b2brevenue.com. Ask yourself, do I want to be serious about sales, or do I want to wing it? A lot of people winging it out there, and a lot of people winging it are telling themselves that they're A-players too. Don't fall into that trap, because how do you get out of that? Tell me, how do you get out of that B-player trap where you think you're great, you're making $150,000, $200,000, maybe $250,000, and all of a sudden the income goes down, not up? Why? Because your skills are shrinking. Because you keep telling yourself you're great with no evidence of it. Feels good, doesn't it? Doesn't pay well though. We'll see you next time. Check out the other shows, Sales Leadership, Sales Questions, Brutally Honest Answers. And if you see my stuff fly by on LinkedIn, give it a little like, a little comment, a little share. We'll see you next time.