HOW TO WIN THE LARGE COMPLEX SALE WHEN YOU ARE THE MOST EXPENSIVE

Hey, before we get into the interview, I want to make sure you're aware of our other podcasts, the Sales Questions, Brutally Honest Answers show, which is a very quick, under 5 minutes in most cases, sometimes just a few minutes where I answer your questions. You can just send me any question to my LinkedIn profile, Brian G. Burns, and I'll put it in the queue to answer. Also, the Sales Leadership Show. If you're looking to get into sales leadership or you want to hear from the world's best sales leaders, that's where I interview them. Check it out, the Sales Leadership Show. Also at b2brevenue.com, you can learn all about all the courses. Links are in the show notes below, as well as our link to our partners over at brevitypitch.com, the fastest, easiest way to become great at sales and practice. Before it's showtime, here we go. Hey, Celine, thanks for joining us today.

As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Yeah, sure. Well, thanks for having me today, Brian. It's a pleasure to be here. So I was born and brought up in France, and at 23 years old, I decided to make my way up to the UK to complete my master's degree in international business. And the idea was for me to then go to Paris and find my first sales job over there and live the big life in the city because I come from the countryside. I'm a countryside girl. But hey, life happened and 18 years down the line, I'm still here in the UK. I'm actually based in Oxford. I found my first sales job in the software industry. Selling software to researchers and scientists in France and Spain. Then I moved to the laser industry, selling high-value capital equipment to a very broad range of customers. So it was like defense in the army, military application, or aerospace, as well as semiconductor or researchers, universities. And 4 years ago, I decided to change industry again. And I moved to the cryogenic industry, selling dilution refrigerators.

You too?

Yes. So today, I'm actually the head of sales of a company called Oxford Instruments. And we are selling high-tech, deep-tech, high-value capital equipment in the material science field, as well as the booming quantum computing field.

Wow, sounds like an easy sale. Is that true?

I wouldn't say that. It's a very, very complex sales, long lead time. Usually a sales will take 6 months to a year, sometimes longer, especially if we're dealing with universities who need to apply for funding. It's public money, but it can go much faster in companies like a startup or industries.

Can you give us a sense of what the deal size is? I gotta believe it's huge.

Yes. So, yeah, so it's quite expensive. So the average is half a million pounds, but it can go to a million pounds and over for one system. So I'm talking about one system, and some customers will need multiple systems. So I was talking about one application, which is the quantum computing application, which is quite in fashion at the moment. So So I think you need to understand in common language what a cell is actually. In common language, it's a big fridge. So it's actually a fridge which goes down to a very, very low temperature. So down to less than 5 millikelvins. So for people to understand, it's actually colder than space. And in the quantum computing field, it's necessary because they use qubits. Because qubits actually, so in normal computing, you use bits, 64 bits, 32 bits, for everybody, everyone knows that. But for a quantum computer, they need qubits, quantum bits. And those qubits need a very cold environment to work.

Yeah.

So that's what we do. We provide the platform. And those companies in quantum computing need Multiple fridge, basically.

And how hard is this sale? I gotta believe that you're not the only company that does this or the only way to solve this problem. Is that true?

No, we have very, very high competition. It's a niche in the sense that we're not many people doing it in the world. We have, I would say, a handful of companies having this capability, but it's a very, very tough market. We have very tough competitors. So yes, it's a very, very competitive market.

And who cares about this within the customer base? Because is it the engineers or is it the operations center?

So it's actually, yeah, you're right. So it also makes the sales very complex because first we have to talk with the end users, which is actually the engineers or the scientists, the researchers, so people using the system who will be then either building their chips or do material characterization with it. But also you need to talk about, you need to talk with the purchasing department and the investors as well. And that can go up to C-level customers as well, especially when we talked with companies, because that's a big investment.

And you've been successful at it. What makes you successful at it?

Well, Brian, that's a very good question.

That's what we're hoping to get out of you today.

So I think, and more than anything today, now I'm coaching people as well to be better salespeople, to be better. What I see is when I do a customer meeting, when I am in a business meeting, And as soon as I enter the door, it's all about my customer. And that's what I tell my salespeople, forget about yourself. It's not about you, it's about your customer. Forget about your ego. There's no space for ego in the room. It's about your customer, it's about their needs, it's about what they want, it's about how they prefer to do business, it's about how to make them comfortable. And make sure that they feel good, they feel understood, they feel listened to, and they will open up. And I think it's key more than anything, especially in B2B, to understand that part, that it's not about you. Forget— you have to forget yourself and be in your customer's shoes. for at least a moment when you spend time with them.

I agree 100% there. But how often do they know what they really need? Because this is all new.

Yes.

You're the expert. They're kind of novices at this, aren't they?

Yes. And some are just starting because quantum computing, for instance, it's a new field and some people are just starting. You're right. Some will be very much expert. But it's a very good point you're making here because a lot of time, if you're in front of an expert, you can get lost yourself in a very high-tech conversation. And once you start talking tech with a tech person, with a techie, you can talk about technology forever and not close the deal. And some salespeople in my field, I mean, they have PhD, they're very clever, they can forget And they can start talking about application because it's exciting, it's very interesting. And then we forget that, oh, hold on a second, I've got to close the deal by the end of this month, by the way. Or the opposite, if it's someone who is very novice, this person can be very anxious and tend to ask a lot of questions, and then it can be very easy for the salesperson to again get lost and lose the control and the direction. And we can go to multiple directions and again not be able to refocus and drive the conversation to close. So it's a very tricky stage here because whether we talk to an expert or to novice, it's very easy to lose the track.

Yeah. And how do you keep them on track? Do you have particular questions or structure to the call that kind of Keeps it without going out in left field?

Yes. So I think, and that's one thing which, I mean, once I was a salesperson and I'm still here at heart, is I always keep on the back of my mind that I'm here to close the deal. So I will always think that, okay, where am I in the process? Why am I doing this meeting today? What do I want to achieve at the end of this meeting? And at the end of this meeting thinking, okay, where I am now, have I moved a step forward and what is needed to basically close the deal or to get a commit? So I think it's very important to have always this little thought behind your mind that where you are in the process. So obviously initially, as I said, there are long lead times. It will take 6 months to sometimes a year or more to close the deal. You will always have a process. So it's like a relationship, right? When you meet somebody initially, you will have an intro— an introduction time where you will get to know each other and feel comfortable with each other. And then slowly you move to the next step, and next step where you're on the quotation, you start talking about the application in more details, and then you start talking about price. And then the terms and conditions, and then you close. So of course there is a process, but it's about making sure we don't waste time in between those steps.

And how do you keep the momentum in the conversation going with the client when there is, you know, 12+ months? You know, the first meeting is very easy, lots to talk about. And then You got to have them select you to the exclusion of anybody else, but then they have to go get funding and get approval, you know, legally, administratively, and politically for this.

Exactly.

How do you keep that going?

Yes, and that's one of the main challenges in long lead time actually sales, in B2B long lead time, high value capital equipment sales, because you're right. Initially, you will have the introduction time and all is well. And you can really easily forget about your opportunity while they apply for funding because it will take a few months. And then you may forget the step where you may, you may miss the step where they got the fund. And when they got the fund, that's where you, you have to go then and accelerate the process. So it's very— yes, it's very important to understand where they are in the process. Are they applying for fund? So if yes, roughly you need to know how long will it take, and then make sure you, you take a note to then chase after that. So yes, it's, it's crucial to, to keep a regular contact, like maybe after a month or 2. How— hey, Brian, by the way, how are you doing? I know you were planning for fund last time you told me. Just wanted to know if you had any news. How is it going? Do you know, try to keep, not bug them every week. There's no point because it takes months, but at least try to have a regular point of contact to make sure we don't miss the time where they got the fund.

And what's your strongest selling characteristic that really separates you from your competitors?

You mean for me, myself, or my company? For you personally. Yes, for me personally. I think one of the aspects I said is listening, making sure it's about my customer. So by doing this, customers trust me, they feel I'm reliable, and then they trust. That's where I build the trust. And at the end of the day, once you have the trust, you have won, I would say, almost 70% of the case. And for me, it's very crucial. And I keep on telling that to my team, build the trust. It's all about trust. Do everything you can to build the trust more and more over time.

And what does trust mean to you? Sometimes it's reliability, dependability, but it's more than that, right?

It's more than that. Obviously reliability. So you have to do what you said you will do. And you have to say what you will do. So it's really important to follow this rule. But trust, you're right, it's about making sure the customer really believes that you are here to support them, you're here to get the best solution for them. And in order to do that, you need to understand What is their personal gain? What are they trying to achieve? Because if you— and I say this to my customers, I want you to be successful. How can I help you to be successful? Some people can be researchers, they want to write a paper and become famous. Others will want to be successful in their research so that they have groundbreaking research, and then Once the person truly believes that you're here for them to be successful, that's where the trust is there. It's, you're right, it's beyond being reliable. It's very much psychological.

And how much business do you get inbound where people contact you versus outbound where you're prospecting to them?

Yes. So it's a small world. We know our customers, we know our strategic accounts. So we do a lot of marketing. And what works quite well is social media today. I mean, we are very much on LinkedIn. For example, whenever we do an installation at such and such institute, very famous institute, we'll take photographs, post it on LinkedIn, and that works because it's a small community. People know each other. So LinkedIn is brilliant for us to do marketing. And of course, we get a lot of leads from our website, people coming to us because they know the brand and they've heard about us. Yeah, either on exhibition or as I said, social media.

And how do you differentiate? Because there's probably a handful of people that sell this type of equipment. You're one of them. You know, they're gonna talk to the others.

Yes, exactly. Especially that one of them is the leader and we are not the leader, we're the challenger, which makes our job actually even harder as a sales team, but very exciting actually. That's what we like. Yes, so at the end of the day, you're right, we sell a fridge and our competitors sell another fridge. Except that there is a different logo and a different color. Both fridges go to less than 10 millikelvin. So technically speaking, we are roughly similar if we want to be on the objective side. What matters to our customer is the service. How well can you support them once they have the machine? How fast can you repair it if there is a problem? How fast can you pick up the phone if they call to ask a question? It's not just about selling the machine or the system. It's about supporting them alongside the lifetime of the machine, which is 10, 15, 20 years plus. So service is crucial today. It's more about service.

And do they focus on unit cost, the cost of the refrigerator, or do they— are you more focused on the total cost of ownership over the 15 years they're gonna be running it?

So that's a great question. And unfortunately, price is also a big— It comes up. It comes up all the time. You will thought we won't have these issues, this issue in high-value capital equipment, but not at all. Price is always on the table, and they will obviously use a competitor to say, look, they are cheaper, it's the same fridge, you know.

Or you.

Yeah, exactly. It's really easy to fall in this trap.

And how do you handle that or prevent it?

So I think so, obviously, as I said, we try to give the argument of service. Which is important, making sure that we have local service. We played a lot on local service, being global but service locally, to be close to our customer, having the local culture and the language, which is important. But it's true, at the end of the day, price, it's not about your customer's budget, of course, but it's about market. It's about being aligned with the market. So to be more expensive, we've got to have either a unique selling point or we've got to be better somewhere. So yes, so we play a lot on service or otherwise sometimes, yeah, we have to be aligned with our competitor if we want to win the deal.

And how much of the business is public sector, universities, government funded? And how much is private sector corporations?

So I will say 60% public and 40% private.

And do the private deals get done faster?

Yes, because they don't have all this bureaucracy, especially in Europe. Yeah, we have to go through very complex tender bids, which is very bureaucratic and everyone hates it, even the customers. But we have to go through it. Obviously, companies don't have to do that. Once they've decided, they just need to send a PO. So companies can go as fast as a few months, 2, 3 months, maximum 6 months.

And have you found unique ways of accelerating the public sector deals working?

We have. Yes, yes, we have. Always trying to be innovative and creative to close the deal faster. So we have what we call sole source. And if you can prove that you have a unique advantage and no one can do it, then university can go sole source and avoid the tender. So we do try to do that.

And how about the marketing of it to the funder, whoever that, the government or I don't know, universities who they get their funding from, research institutes?

Yes, yes, from the government. I mean, if we look investment, public investment in quantum computing, it's billions. It's billions in the US, it's billions in Europe, it's billions in China. It's a race. Everyone wants to have the first quantum computer to control the world. Let's, you know, let's be direct. So it's a complete race. So there's a lot of public funding from government, and which gets basically distributed to those public institutes and universities.

And how did you learn all these issues with both quantum computing and the refrigeration? I gotta believe it's technical, really technical.

Yes. And, and believe it or not, Brian, I don't have any technical background. As you have heard initially, all my studies are in business. So I've studied business, marketing, and management. And so I had to learn on the field. But I always been in high-tech. I started in, as I said, software, then moved to laser industry, then moved to cryogenic. So yes, for me it was very important that I learned because I knew nothing about it 4 years ago, I must admit. And I learned by, you know, talking to engineers, going to the factory, seeing what they were doing, reading. I mean, today Knowledge is available everywhere.

Everywhere.

Yeah. So yeah, it's about reading. It's about asking questions, talking to people, reading articles, watching YouTube, you know, watching tutorials. And that's what I've done for the first year.

Right. And why did you decide to go into leadership?

Uh, so, you know, I always liked coaching.

Yeah.

Spreading knowledge, but also, so sales is something I love. I mean, I just love the game. For me, it's a game and it's like, I think once I've seen one of your podcasts, you talk about chess and I was like, it's exactly that. And it's about practicing and get better and better. And because I love that so much, I also want people, I want to share this passion with people and I want them to get better too. So that's why I went to leadership. I want the sales team to get the passion of selling because it's a good profession, I think, and it's very honorable and I want to help people to be better at it. So that's why I went to leadership and I also like responsibilities and I have vision and I like influencing people. So I think that's what made me go to leadership.

Yeah. And do you find salespeople open to feedback? Because a lot of people get comfortable.

Yes, feedback is a good topic. And I think actually I had to learn how to give feedback when I went to leadership because when you're a salesperson, well, you don't give feedback. You may take feedback from your customers, of course, but you don't necessarily give feedback. So When I went to leadership, that's something I learned. I had to learn how to give feedback so that people can take it in a positive way, not get frustrated, not get offended, and actually take it to improve. So constructive feedback obviously was something I had to learn initially, and especially the difference in culture, because obviously I'm French and in France people are much more direct. than in the UK. People are much more, yes, so I had to also, yes, so I'm much more reserved or I would say not direct, more diplomatic. And I had to learn that actually, Brian, to learn how to give feedback to different people with different culture. So yes, that was a learning curve for me.

Because in sales, the feedback is Subjective, meaning that it's opinion-based. Like in chess, you can see the players, they can only move certain ways. In sales, it's subjective. Did you ask enough questions? Did you talk too much? Did you listen enough?

I agree. Every— we all are unique, and all salespeople have their own style. And, and I think it's important as a leader to make the difference between the salesperson style and how to do things with the outcome and the process. Because sales, there is still a bit of a process. There's a framework that you need to follow. And I think that's really important to differentiate this framework, this process with the style.

Yes.

And, you know, one style can work, for this person might not work for me, might not work for anybody else. But if it works for that person, fine. And I think it's very important as a leader to understand those 2 things, style and process.

Well, I agree 100% there because I think too many people couple them.

Yes.

And they don't understand there's a process. They just think it's personality characteristics.

Yes. And it's really easy to fall in the trap, to be honest, because especially somebody who has a lot of experience, we will do the thing over and over again this way. And if we don't, especially if somebody doesn't have the habit of seeing other people or is not used to work and seeing other people, they may initially find it a bit weird if suddenly they see someone doing differently. Um, so it's about having this broad mindset or growth mindset. Yeah. Um, to, to allow people to flourish or to let them, uh, do the best way they can do.

Now, if you were to design your ideal salesperson, what, what, what would those characteristics be?

Yes. So for me, I think you need to be really curious. You need to like people. And that's why I'm coming back with the, it's not about you, it's about them. And for me, it's really important. Have empathy, great amount of empathy. Be curious. And at the same time, don't forget it's a profession. We are not there to talk friendly. Of course, we will be friendly and we can talk about technology, but remind yourself that you're there to close the deal.

There is an objective to this.

There is an objective. Yes, you're there to close the deal. So it's very important to be target-driven and focused.

Yeah. And what frustrates you about salespeople? It doesn't have to be anybody you're working with today or just in general.

Arrogance, I would say. You will find a lot of salespeople thinking they know the best. And those people unfortunately don't improve or don't move forward because if you think you know the best and then you don't listen, and then that's where it goes wrong usually. And I've come across such people and it's hard. It's again this having the open mind to accept the feedback, to see that you can always improve. And I think it's very important and This is something I made my motto is I want to constantly learn and improve in order to improve. And that can frustrate me if I see a salesperson who refuses to learn.

Hey, Céline, really appreciate your time today. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

Thanks, Ryan. It was a great discussion. So of course, people can find me on LinkedIn. My name is Céline Bensal. And I will be happy to connect.

And to become great at sales, the best way is to model somebody who already has become good at sales and to hear other people who have become great at sales and the journey that they're going through, the false beliefs, The misnomers, the mindset issues, all of this stuff that gets in our way between where we are and the income that we want. Let's face it, we're in sales because we're money motivated, we're competitive, we want to be better every day than we were yesterday. And how do we do that? Um, just really, you know, read a book, uh, listen to a podcast. That's good, good start. I like it. But then you have to take action. And then you want both tactical and strategic ideas. You want mindset. You want strategy. You want to understand how companies buy. You want really deep content and examples, case studies, so that you can learn from other people's mistakes. That's what I'm here for. I'm here for you to learn from my mistakes. And boy, do I got a lot of them. So go to b2brevenue.com, sign up for the courses. There's 2 major ones. Start the Conversation, Get the Meeting fills up your pipeline, gets rid of that problem of, oh, I don't have enough leads, I don't have enough meetings. It gets those conversations started with the people you want to talk to. Now, it's not about a pitch. It's about a conversation. Now, everybody thinks of conversations when you're talking or you're online at the same time or you're on the phone or Zoom at the same time. That's not a conversation. A conversation's when the client is talking about what they care about, what they're interested in. And that is what we call qualification, where we can sense where are they and how do we build up that curiosity into interest into urgency. To get a deal. And these are skills that we need. They're lifelong skills that we need in sales. And then how do we get a deal closed? Yes, anyone can take an order. But what if they don't know how to get it done? You got a new account where you're trying to get a big change done internally. What are the issues? If you're not planning that through, odds are it's not going to get done no matter how much your champion wants it. So, Winning the Complex Sale solves that problem for you. Why waste all your time on these false positives or these no decisions? Because they don't pay very well. They pay 0.0. What you want to do is pay a lot. So sign up today. Invest in yourself. You're the asset in sales. Quit waiting for somebody else to approve it or train you. See if you can get it expensed. That should be your first sales obstacle. Your first sales challenge is how do you get your company to pay for it? Just go down, tell your manager you want to do this. I put a little example email in the show notes right below here. Just swipe up and take a look at that. And if they won't, you got to ask yourself, why won't you? Why won't you? Oh, it takes time. Well, you work all day. You're working wrong all day. Why not improve that? There's the time right there. Oh, the money, Brian. It's money. Well, you make more money if you become better in sales. And start the conversation. Pays for itself the first week because you're going to get at least 2 meetings just learning from the very basics of it. Closing the Complex Sale will pay for itself 100 times over. Students in it tell me it's the best money they ever spent because they now have control over their deals. And it doesn't end. Some give up. Some give up after they win their first deal and they think they've got enough. No, come back. Come back. Keep going. You can get even bigger deals, more deals, faster deals. That's what it's all about. Sign up today. Put the excuses away. Yeah, excuses feel good, but they're expensive. Excuse— you know what the excuses are costing you? Tens, 50, maybe a couple hundred thousand dollars a year in lost income.

Really?

Yeah. The difference between where you are today— let's say you're making $150,000, decent, decent income, but you know there's other people in your industry making $300,000, $400,000, $500,000. Well, how are you going to do that? You all think it's just about getting a better job, a better territory, a better manager. They can help. Go do that. Then what happens? It's still you There with those leads, trying to close those deals. And do you have the game? Few people do. Everyone thinks they do. Why not prove it? The market tells you what you're worth.

Accept it.

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