HOW YOU CAN SELL LIKE A CEO AND CLOSE MEGA-DEALS NOW IN B2B SALES

I think the most common trap that we fall into in B2B sales, and I fall into it myself sometimes, and if you don't plan ahead, it's almost impossible not to fall into it. It's doing what our prospect wants or suggests. And sometimes they're right. But a lot of times they don't understand that they're moving too fast, that they're overlooking some details. That they're running the deal right into a wall. And they're not prepared for the questions they're going to get from the people internally that need to sign off from this. And this is part of the commodity trap, part of the service trap that I talk quite a bit about. But it's a clear sign that the sales rep has lost direction, momentum, and control. And this is what we talked about yesterday on the office hours. If you're in the Closing the Complex Sale, I went into it in gory detail and ways of preventing yourself from falling into that trap and looking for the signs of it. So make sure you're checking that out. Make sure you're also checking out the first chapter, which has the schedule for office hours and the smartphone app, so you can listen to all the one-on-ones and office hours. I'll record it anytime you want. Let's get into this interview. I think you're going to enjoy this one. Here's somebody who came to the US from Germany and worked his way up and started his own company. So he sold from many different perspectives. But I think you'll take out of this is how a CEO and an entrepreneur sells differently. They sell a lot better than most sales reps because They— for lots of reasons. Let's get into the interview. Also, have you checked out brevitypitch.com? Uh, they sent me a little sneak preview of the next release that's coming out shortly. The current release is fine. It's fantastic. It's a great way of warming up and getting the juices flowing and practicing the things that we know we're going to run into, but we're putting them off. And everybody needs a warm-up. Billy Joel warms up on the piano before he goes out there. Taylor Swift, does she warm up? I hear she does. Go to brevitypitch.com, tell them Brian sent you, uh, but bring, bring the manager with you because they're kind of overwhelmed with demos and stuff and they want to talk with the people who are serious. So brevitypitch.com. Here we go with the interview.

Hey, Thomas, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Oh gosh, that might be a long story. But the short of it is, is I'm a German immigrant, came over here back in the early '90s as an exchange student in the Southeast, Alabama. I liked it so much that I decided to go to college at Auburn University, found my spouse, married, 2 kids, older teenagers, lived in Atlanta for a while after that in the telco, worked in the telco space, moved back to Germany in 2010 to spend some time back in the homeland for about 4 years and then moved back in 2014. And now I live in Los Angeles and I run my own IT services company here in the US now for the past 7 years.

And I got a curiosity question. It's kind of my own question. What's the difference between selling in Germany and in the US? Is there much difference?

Yes, there very much is. I mean, going back to Germany was quite interesting. I came to the US as a teenager. So the German language that I remembered was sort of like the regular language, you know, like people talk to each other under friends. But when I came back to Germany, the business language, so to speak, and especially in selling was quite different. The methodology and the formality was quite strange. So even though I understood the language, So to speak, I always have to go back to a colleague of mine and say, okay, I kind of understood what everybody said, but what really went on, you know, can you give me like the, you know, the CliffsNotes, the silver lining when we go into meetings? So that was quite an interesting learning experience. And Germans don't like a lot of fluff, you know, how Americans always say it's the sizzle that sells the steak. There's no sizzle in Germany. They just want steak.

So just one steak. What's the hardest part in Germany? Is it getting the meeting or is it keeping the deal moving or cutting through?

I don't think it's necessarily getting a meeting. I mean, they're always very interested to hear what you have to say if there's something new. But then getting a deal moving is probably the hardest, you know. One thing that I found very interesting in comparison is here in the US, customers are very quick to switch out vendors, you know, based on relationship or based on it's the latest and greatest on marketing hype or whatnot. Where in Europe and in Germany, it's it's not so much, it's like, okay, great, Thomas, you told us a great story. It sounds fantastic. But let's take a step back. We've invested in this technology or product or service. Is it really doing what we still wanted to do? Does it meet our needs? Can we just do some improvements or do we jump ship and change everything? So I think that it has a lot to do with the US more of having like a quarterly thinking around moving the business forward versus in Europe, you're like, well, what is the long-term impact? You know, does it make really sense to change our vendors now or should we wait? So we see that quite a lot as a difference.

And you spent most of your career at large companies.

Correct.

Was that on purpose or did you like it?

Well, I run my own business, so I guess that answers that question.

Something changed.

Yeah. I think it was a great experience to work for all these great companies. Again, I worked for all the major telco carriers here in the US and worked for them also in Europe, which was very interesting, was very exciting, a lot of resources, a lot of exposure and experience that I probably wouldn't have gotten somewhere else. But it made me very quickly realize that I'm not cut out for the corporate world. I mean, where I was very good in business development and knocking on doors and getting the meetings and everything else like that, I quickly realized that playing the politics which are very typical for large corporations, I'm just not suited for. So when the opportunity came to start my own business, I jumped at it because I know I can, I can make decent decisions, maybe not always the best decisions, but not always the worst decisions either. But I think the decisions that I do make are, they're goal-tending, you know, they lead to result without, you know, causing any rub.

Yeah. And the sales background must have helped a lot starting your own company.

Yes, definitely did. Yeah.

And what makes you a great salesperson?

Oh gosh, I don't consider myself a great salesperson. I thought about that when you reached out and asked me, I was like, am I really a great salesperson? Would I be considered a great salesperson? And if you'd asked my friends back in college and you told them, hey, Thomas is a salesperson, they would have laughed at you. They're like, what, that guy? Not a chance. You know, I mean, when I first heard about Being a salesperson or the term salesperson, you know, you think of somebody, an athlete, you know, very outgoing personality, high energy, you know, always on the go. And that's not me. I'm, I'm, I would classify myself more as an introvert that has trained himself to become more an extrovert and work on this. I kind of just stumbled on being a salesperson as a first profession because I originally wanted to become a management consultant. I went to college, almost looked at getting my PhD and becoming a management consultant for the McKinsey McKinsey's, Deloitte's or Boston Consulting was my aspiration. It's just worked out that when I graduated and I needed a job to stay in the country, none of those opportunities presented themselves. So the next best opportunity was to become a salesperson because that way at least I got to talk to business owners or decision makers at businesses to understand their business and be able to consult them with technologies that are available to improve their business. So I kind of stumbled upon that.

And I think people misunderstand what makes a great salesperson in B2B versus B2C because in B2B, it is kind of the introvert extrovert kind of someone who pushes themselves out of their shell because people, it's a long conversation. Certainly in your space, it's a long sales process, right?

Very much so.

Yeah. So once the sizzle is gone, there's gotta be some steak there, right? There's gotta be some value and progress and Somebody who understands their business and you're in a hypercompetitive space as well, right?

Very much so. Yeah. I mean, and that's why I always try to look at myself and say, what can I do different? You know, what does Thomas do that others may not do? What is hard that others won't do, but you're willing to do? And I was in kind of a precarious situation where I had to sink or swim, you know, it was either stay in the country or have to go back home to Germany. So I had the motivation to pick up the phone to make the calls, you know, to do the hard work, so to speak. But I didn't have the polish that, you know, the prolific salesperson has either. So I read a lot of books, Zig Ziglar, Jeffrey Gitomer and everything else. And I talked to every salesperson I could come across to understand their business. But the essence to me was what can I do different? You know, what is something unique about me that nobody else can replicate? I'm German, I speak several languages. So that definitely helps, but not necessarily in sales initially when I first—

Yeah.

started hitting the pavement. But I consider myself an honest person. I like to talk to people, prospects, clients like they're my friend. I wouldn't want to sell them something if I didn't believe in it, if I wouldn't buy it in their situation as well. And I would walk away from the sale if it didn't make any sense, first of all. So to me, it was always important to have that good feeling of a relationship rather than just trying to push something onto a customer to make the quick buck and then later suffer the repercussions off of that. And then the other piece was, it was just being true to your word. You know, if you said you're gonna call somebody back, if you're gonna do certain things, even if they were customer service related, and there's a lot of customer service related things as a salesperson you may have to do, they're not necessarily producing a paycheck the quarter or the month when you're having to meet your quota. But they do pay dividends over time with that reputation where people say, hey, you know what? I didn't find what Thomas was telling me very interesting or compelling for me to make a buying decision, but he's an honest guy and he does what he says. So if he comes around again, if there's an opportunity, I'll give him a chance and buy something. And this has happened over and over in my career as well. So I would say those are some of the things that I feel make myself a little bit unique in that aspect and has helped me in my career to progress where I am today.

Yeah. So you were looking beyond the simple transaction and looking at the partnership relationship, long-term view.

Yep.

What was the first couple of years like being out on your own, building your own business?

Oh gosh, it was tough. No paycheck. Of course, I had to do other things. I did some consulting on the side for several other organizations out there. It was a lot of travel, not seeing my family. So that ruffled some feathers as well. But the fact that the decisions are mine and mine alone, and I'm the one that benefits and suffers at the same time, is what kept me going. And the outcome, even though I wouldn't consider myself a very wealthy person, a very rich person, by all means, in running my business, I feel fulfilled. You know, I make enough to make ends meet, to live a decent, good life in Southern California. to stay at whatever hotel I want to if it makes business sense and stay at a crappy hotel if it doesn't make any sense, but just to get the deal. So those are some of the intrinsic rewards that I've gotten out of starting this business, especially earlier on when it was still very tough and it's not easy now either. So don't get me wrong, it's not smooth sailing. It's still tossing and turning sometimes at night trying to get some sleep and wondering if you made the right decision or not.

And do you hire salespeople now for your company?

Yes. Yes, I do bring on salespeople. It is tough. I do look for referrals, recommendations from other folks rather than just going out and hiring. During the pandemic, I made the mistake of just going by resume and perceived reputation. But that was a big mistake. I'd rather bring along people that were recommended. that have somewhat of the similar philosophy, the same foundation of doing things right by the customer, doing things right by yourself and then building upon that. One of my biggest pet peeves, especially in working with software vendors, as you may know, is the whole at the end of the quarter, hey, let's call the customer and see if we can squeeze out a deal. You know, what is it gonna take to book the deal today? Bryan, I absolutely hate it. I hate it. I cannot stand it. And I tell my salespeople, I was like, don't do it. I was like, do not go to your customer And harass them about trying to squeeze in a deal to the quarter. If you've done your job, if you communicated the value, if the customer perceived the value, they'd like the relationship, they're gonna buy when the timing is right. And guess what? They're not gonna ask for a price concession. And we hardly ever have to do a concession on price at all. The deals come in and we get them at the price that we've originally negotiated with. And that's what matters. Yeah.

And most people do that. You know, that, and I think it's because they don't understand how companies buy. They haven't built up the value. They've stuck with one person and it's the only arrow they have in their quiver.

Right. But that's also going back to your earlier question, what's different? I guess that some of my European roots is now stop thinking about quarterly success. I mean, don't get me wrong, I like money sooner than later, like anybody does, you know, but it's not, At the expense of burning a relationship, you know?

Yeah. And especially in B2B where it's the company's money, not the employee's money.

Right.

So, you know, maybe if you're dealing with the CEO or the owner, you might, might have some more meaning. But if you're dealing 3, 4 levels down, do they care that much? Probably about the cost. And what do you like in a salesperson when you hire them?

That is also a very good question. You know, I mean, I had to go through when I was a sales manager, a process of hiring a lot of people and I hated that too. It was just trying to fill bodies, you know, just to get out there. And to me, When a salesperson goes out for an interview, that should be the biggest moment of their life up to that point where that's, you know, that's when they can showcase their skill set to me. You know, it's the little things that matter to me. You know, is it, do they show up 15 minutes early? Do they dress appropriately? You know, not necessarily suit and tie, but have they done enough research to know what the culture is like? Do they come prepared? Meaning, Do they bring maybe a written copy of their resume, cover letter? Do they have questions with themselves? You know, little stuff like that. Do they close? I mean, that's— there was this one incident where another sales manager and I had to hire a lot of salespeople on the request of our boss. And it was just terrible. And there was this lady, I'm not gonna name her name, but she was very energetic and very enthusiastic. And she told us how great of a closer she was. And she must have said it about 4 or 5 times at the end of the interview. And I was sitting there and I go, when's the close? You know, you're such a great closer. When are you gonna close me? Never asked the question, never asked what are the next steps? Did I make it this far? If you had to make a decision today, nothing. So to me, what I'm looking for, for a salesperson that interviews with me is do they have the basics down? Because if they can't even sell themselves, if you can't even do the small little things like I just mentioned, Then how are they gonna perform when they have to sell something from a company? Probably not as good.

Yeah. A lot of people think sales is a personality type instead of a process. And in B2C, it might be a personality type.

Probably.

Yeah. Door-to-door retail, whatever it is. But in your space, it's a long relationship. Your sales cycles are probably 3 months plus to get a new client?

Easily, sometimes years. Yeah, very much.

And I'm sure you must have kind of reverse engineered your current sales process or their buying process because you're competing. You gotta wait for a window of opportunity when the incumbent is expiring. Is that how it works or?

Yeah, I mean, typically the customer is in a transition. The customer is asking themselves, I wanna make a change. Whatever I'm doing right now is not working. I either need to bring somebody in to tell me how do I do things better with what I have, is what I have working for me if I just tweak it, or I do need to make a wholesale change to a new technology. So yes, there's a lot of moving parts and it's very complex to be considered at the same time. But with the fact that we have all the tools with our consultants see if we can bring the customer along their journey. And a lot of times we decide that maybe it's just not a good fit at this point in time that we just walk away from the sales I mentioned. But again, that's, that's where it's so important to me to leave a good impression to where the experience was good, where the customer says, hey, you know what, we didn't do business with these folks this time around, but the experience was great. Whenever we come across a path like this again, let's call them and see what they got.

And what makes a great salesperson in your space? Because I don't know if you've hired one or you compete against one or you'd like to hire one.

Makes a great salesperson in my space. That's, that is a very, very tough question that I don't know if I know the answer. I guess I know when I see it, you know, as I mentioned, it's a great salesperson has the attributes of doing the little things. comes over genuine. I think that's the main part, comes over very genuine, empathetic, but still goal-driven at the same time. Empathetic to the point where they can relate to the customer, the customer's buying cycle, but also can nudge not too aggressively on there as well. That's why I would say, and a great salesperson to me would be able to Be very relatable with stories. Early in my career, it was all about bits and bytes and features and this widget does this and this software does that. And this is all fantastic. But if the salesperson cannot weave this into a story and has customer examples, or at least at the beginning when you don't have customers, you can pretend there is a customer outcome that the customer can see themselves in that story. Like, hey, I was like that. I was like that customer. I'm going through this journey. And I want to be at the end of that story too, just like that customer. So to me, those are some of the attributes a great salesperson should have to being able to relay a story, to provide a good message that resonates with a lot of customers that they can see themselves in that success story.

And who are you selling to? What persona is it? CIO, CTO? Is it operations? Is it?

It's, it's CSO, CTO, the Chief Security Officer or Chief Information Officer and below.

The easy people to get access to, right?

Right.

So how do you get their time?

We do a good job in working with partners. So we are a very, very small company. We have about 150 employees worldwide. Very few sales. A lot of it is services, support, and consulting. So we leverage a lot of partners. We leverage a lot of the telcos that I mentioned. We leverage a lot of the software vendors that we have expertise in, and we leverage them to get access to the folks we need to talk to. A lot of times customers said, I've never heard of you. Who are you? But because, and that's the other part, and that's why it's so important to me and near and dear to my heart is the reputation because we have a good reputation. we are being recommended to those folks and word gets around and we have repeat customers say, hey, yeah, I heard from so-and-so over at that company. You guys are good folks to deal with. That's how we get access is based on a reputation and also helping our partners succeed in the marketplace as well.

Yeah, I think a lot of services companies don't get the value of that. They try and build their own sales force and either compete against those vendors Or just go on their own and it's just too hard.

Yeah.

You know, just because there's too many people and if you don't have that recommendation when somebody brings you in, which helps a lot, that skips a lot of the sales process.

Right. And I mean, that was a challenge at first when I first started this business, I found myself competing against a lot of the partners that were now working together. It was trying to figure out and it's a different type of sale too, Bryan. It's not like how do I sell something to a customer? It's like how do I convince a partner that bringing us into the deal, we can help that partner be successful? Where is there the overlap? One of my colleagues calls it the Venn diagram. Where do all 3 circles overlap and everybody's happy, everybody makes money and succeeds? That's a different type of sale. That's a different type of thinking than just being a direct salesperson out there and trying to figure out which product or service matches each customer.

Yeah.

And it was one of my superpowers as, because I was always at startups and they always wanted us to sell services, but they didn't comp us well on it. So it wasn't economically worth our time. They'd have to fly in. They were kind of like paratroopers. They come in, do something, then leave. But that's not what the client wants. The client wants dedicated, you know, throat to hold. And I didn't want it to be my throat. I would look for people like yourself who I could just pass it on to. And I knew that they would take care of the client. What was it like building up those relationships with the partner?

It was very hard, very, very hard at first. And again, Lots of meetings, lots of discussions and again, trying to get a hold of the right people that would sponsor you. That was the other thing is you have to figure out who am I meeting with? What is their title? What is their objective? How is what I have to offer gonna help that person? So it was a long time. There are several of our partners that we've been working with. To this date, we're not where we should be, but we're making headway slow but sure. Same with some of the carriers that we're working with. It takes a long time. And the challenge also, as you know, is you've got a lot of turnover. You know, once you've developed a relationship with somebody, once you feel like you're on the right track with somebody, they move. You know, they either leave their company, they go on another position, or something happens. A reorg is going on, difference in priority. That's the, that's the challenges, you know, constantly watching the bouncing ball. Where is it going? Who's next? Who do you need to build a relationship? So that's, that's pretty tough.

And let's say you have that great partner introductory meeting. How do you keep the ball moving with the client so that it isn't just a presentation and then a proposal, that it's a kind of a long conversation? To get to a deal? How do you keep that conversation going?

Well, that would depend on what the actual objective is of the customer. I mean, we do have some customers that just need us for an engagement. They have an immediate need and we are actually the paratroopers that come in and then come out. The challenge is then where do you position yourself as a vendor of long-term value, you know, so What we like to do at the beginning of a meeting, if it's possible, is to paint the picture of who we actually are. A lot of times we're being brought in from a vendor or partner of that customer, say, hey, Thomas and his team, they can do this or they can do that. And the customer says, great, here's my problem, go ahead and fix it. See you later, you know. So it takes for us to step, take a step back with the customer, say, hey, glad we're here, appreciate the opportunity. I understand you asked us to fix this problem, but let me tell you a little bit about who we are. You know, we have been around for a very long time. Here, here's what we do. Here's how we help our customers and planting the seed that it's just not a one-time conversation, but there are multiple conversations that we have. So even though we come in and we fix the problem or we come in and don't fix the problem for whatever reason that the customer still remembers, hey, These guys can do this or this company can do that. And then of course, constant follow-up. And that's one of the things that I think I've done a little bit more consistent than some of my fellow sales reps that I've been along is staying on the customer. Hey, is this project still of interest? Hey, something has changed, sending news articles, you know, all those little things to be on top of mind, not to become a pest, so to speak. And And now being moved into the spam or junk mail folder, but always trying to see, hey, I thought about you, we talked about this, this might help you out, you know, always trying to add value like a friend would, you know.

Hey, partner.

For your mom's sake, I thought I might give you a call, might cook you a meal, you know, that type of approach for B2B. Hey, heard you guys are laying off some folks. Can we help, you know, can we help augment some of your resources? Stuff like that.

Yeah. And when you're dealing with your partners, what do you like to see in the salespeople there? Because I'm sure you've seen great and good and not so good.

That's a loaded question.

No one's listening.

What I like to see in the salespeople of the partners is they understand our business, you know, granted, they're under the gun and I constantly have that conversation with them. Hey, I get it. You have a quota, you have a boss that's gonna pitch you. I was like, and, but you have to understand how our business works too. It's like we're the agnostic partner of your customer, you know, let us come close to your customer. Let us talk to your customer and let us befriend your customer because it's only gonna help you. Your customer is gonna tell us things they're not gonna tell you. So. Those reps that understand that, that say, hey, I want Thomas and his crew to be in there. I know Thomas might represent my competition out there, but with the relationship that I have with EBF and Thomas, I know he's not gonna screw me over on that. So I'm confident to let Thomas and his sales reps come to my customer because at the end it's only gonna benefit me. I'm either gonna know a lot faster if I have a deal or not. I'm gonna get a deal a lot faster. Or if I need to find out other ways to get in there, I can certainly do that. So sales reps that understand how that's how partnerships work, I think are the ones that I'm gravitating to versus the ones that say, hey, come in, fix this now, see you later, don't talk to my customer, you know, only with me. That's—

That's what I was thinking. The not so good ones would be the control freaks that don't tell you anything. Before the meeting, they bring you in, they don't really tell you the client's name, but they want to control the conversation.

Now, don't get me wrong, Bryan. I mean, there are tons of bad actors out there, tons of companies like ourselves that are looking to make a quick buck any way they can. And I get that. I've been on that side of the coin as well where I was a sales rep, I brought in a partner and poof, it was gone. So I was out of the loop. So I understand.

Yeah. But what I always noticed was when you brought a partner in and they were a real partner, they became your advocate internally there and a great source of intelligence because I think clients, they care about themselves and they don't share that much with salespeople, not the real Juicy stuff that makes the difference between big deals and medium deals. But when you brought the consultants in that was working on the problem, they kind of opened up like a long-term eval or something that you're almost part of the family there.

Right.

Yeah. If you look back at your sales career, what would you have changed?

If anything, the short answer is nothing because I feel like I'm at where I wanna be and somehow I made it here. Are there some things I probably would have done differently in hindsight? Probably. But then who knows where I would have ended up, you know, would I have liked to start at a larger company sooner rather than later? Sure. Would I have worked on bigger projects that paid more sooner than later? Sure. Absolutely. Well, I could make more money. But yeah, no, I've— I'm very happy with where I'm at and I'm very happy with where things are going. So even though it was hard and in hindsight, you're like, oh gosh, I can't believe I had to deal with stuff like that. I mean, we are here because of the decisions that we made and the decisions that we made at that point in time were Probably the best decisions with all the information we had at that time. So I don't like playing Monday morning quarterback and second-guessing myself too much. Cool.

Hey, Thomas, appreciate your time today. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

Definitely on LinkedIn, Thomas Steinmetz LinkedIn and ebf.com. You can find me there as well.

I think it was interesting how he took the client's perspective, was thinking about the deal from there. Point of view. And like I talked about in the intro, too many of us, we focus and get pulled into what we're selling instead of why are they interested in changing and buying. That's a very different way of looking at it. And the what we're selling, that's the commodity trap, because if somebody else does the same what as you, then they look at The how much. And when they start looking at the how much, they lose all perspective of value. They think that value is equal, so the price is different. And there's the commodity trap. It's hard to avoid, and when you're in it, you got to dig yourself out of it, but it's a little bit easier to prevent it. It's keeping them focused on why are we doing this? What's behind this? What's the initiative? Find out what the personal wins are. Keep the conversation on the why. You got to cover the what and the how, but if the why is big enough, they'll buy. If they're focused on the what, it's a thing. It's a priority or not a priority, and they kind of move away from it. You got to get them focused on the why and keep the focus there because it's so easy to cover it and then people forget. And if I'm learning anything this year, it's that our brains are pain avoidance machines. We don't know it because they just get us focused on something else. What's procrastination? It's action. But wait a Wait a second. We're human beings. We don't take action without reward. Oh, procrastination is distraction. That's why we do it. It's to avoid pain. So much of life is distraction to keep our mind occupied, and our subconscious does that to us to keep us busy and leave us alone. So on these deals, it's up to us to keep the focus on the why, because when the deals fail to close, they're looking at the what, not the why. Remember that. Write it down. Put a Post-it up on your monitor. Remember it. It is something that we tend to forget because marketing or sales enablement teaches us the what, all about the what and how we're different. And that it's important. I'm not diminishing it. I'm simply prioritizing it in that it's good, but the why is why they buy. And if you don't know that and they don't know that, they won't buy. I appreciate you listening to this interview. If you see my stuff fly by on LinkedIn. Please give it a like, a little comment, a little share would be greatly appreciated. Check out the Sales Questions Podcast and make sure you're checking out our friends over at brevitypitch.com. And tell a friend about the show. We'll see you next time.