SORRY... IT IS NOT ABOUT THE PRODUCT

In sales, we talk a lot about A, B, and C players, and that's a good way of characterizing skill set, ability, aptitude. Much like school, there's the A students, the ones who are either naturally smart or really work hard and apply themselves. And there's the B students that, eh, they try and they do pretty good. And there's the C students that sometimes just aren't a fit for school.

Yeah.

Speaking to one right now. But then there's something above A-players in sales. And this I noticed early in my career, and I strived to become that person. And how do I characterize them? They're always thinking outside the box. They're not the Boy Scout, the good citizen. Not that they're a bad citizen. It's that they don't overwhelm themselves with the bureaucracy and the protocols and the management directives. They're good citizens, but they, they, they do what's right for the customer and they create things. And when I started to go out on my own, I go, what's a good name for that? type of salesperson. And the timing wasn't right, but the name I came up with was Maverick. Uh, but I happened to have come up with it at the time. It was the, I think, '08 or '09 election here in the US, and John McCain was running against Obama. And McCain positioned himself as a maverick, and all of a sudden it got lost in the political And that wasn't my intent. It was just bad timing. But I used the word maverick because they were apart from the herd. They weren't the leader of the herd. They were so far apart that people came up with a different name for them. They were mavericks. Now, maverick also conjures up a cowboy. Now, I don't mean— The cowboy term. But the maverick is the smart part of it. And we've talked about this Ivy League street fighter, but the maverick is even a little bit more than that. Maybe a little less polished and not as street fighter-y, but creative. And a lot of— when I use the word creative, can you give me an example of creative? Oh, Oh God. If you don't know what creative— I'm going to give you a lot of examples about creative in this episode today. And don't underestimate the power of this interview because a lot of you are going to hear, oh, he's selling season tickets or corporate deals to a sports team. How boring. No, no, you're missing the point. The point is how he is selling outside the box, how he's connecting with his clients, and what the client really wants, and how it's not about the product. Please hear this, study this, and try and apply it, because this is magic I am giving to you right today. You may not appreciate it for years until you figure it out, but today I am giving you this gift free of charge if you can apply it to how you sell. And I get it, everybody wants to be told exactly what to do on a step-by-step basis so that all the risk is taken away from them. Well, that's not selling. Selling is a performance art. It's how well we do it, not just that we do it, and not that we know how to do it. It's how well we do it. I know, I know, I beat that nail to death. But let's get into this interview. This one is something that you're going to want to study, not just listen to, because in sales, the fun is at the very, very top, not just at the A-player, but But at the Maverick level. Here we go.

Oh, hang on.

Hey, Joe, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Well, let's see. What do you need to know? I went to college, Central Michigan University, and then after that, I got a job in radio and bounced around broadcasting. Found a gig that I liked, hung out for about 30 years, got kicked out of that, went to work for a minor league baseball team in sales and marketing.

So how do you like sales?

Oh, I love sales.

Yeah, tell us why.

Well, I think, see, Brian, I think the trouble with sales, you know, is people have to be comfortable with being a salesperson. You know, I mean, if that's what I am, I'm a salesperson. I'm not using this platform in broadcasting. A lot of people tried to get into broadcasting, you know, on air, but there were no jobs. So they thought sales and we'll get in. The same with baseball, you know. Oh, well, you know, I really want to be the promotion director. I really want to do this. But the only jobs are in sales. Well, though that never works because, you know, the best way to be successful in sales is just be comfortable that you're a salesperson. Yeah.

And were you always comfortable as a salesperson?

No, no, because, you know, when, you know, colleges and academia don't do sales any justice. No, you know, you got a bunch of You got a bunch of, you know, people who teach in college that probably, you know, well, you know, failed in the real world. So they go to colleges and teach, you know, because I had broadcasting professors that were, you know, that were in broadcasting, and I was doing it successfully, actually in the business and making like 4 times what they were making.

Yeah.

But they're all— I don't know why, maybe it's because they failed in sales, or there's this academic fear of sales, when in reality, 80% of the first jobs in most industries are going to be in sales.

Yeah. And what do you like about it?

Problem solving. Yeah, I like, you know, it's kind of like, I can't sell anybody anything. But what I can do is I can research, I can, I can prepare, I can listen to people. And if I know that if I can solve their problem, okay, I'm going to be a valuable resource. And I kind of like being that valuable resource because, you know, if I learned long ago that if I can solve somebody's problem or even in baseball, if I can provide somebody with an experience, you know, or what we call a cell phone moment where they whip out the cell phone and take a picture because it's so It's so moving. You know, if I can do that, I will be successful. And then everything else follows up on that, the money and everything else.

Yeah. And what was it like going from marketing into sales? Because marketing is kind of, it's sales at volume, but it's very different.

No, marketing is, marketing should be a part of sales. But in many organizations, marketing is not, you know, they're, they're, they clash, you know, and, and, you know, sales is, sales is the most fun. Sales, you know, will, will give you the most security.

Yeah. And I see more people going sales to marketing than I see going from marketing to sales.

Right. Well, because people, people who, you know, People who, you know, don't want to be in sales, and I tell this to the— I work with quite a few people in their 20s here at the ballpark. The great thing about sales is it's the only job left with security and any chance of unlimited, you know, and I know that sounds like a 1980s classified ad, unlimited You know, income.

Yeah.

You know, everybody, if you go work for corporate, they cap you, you know, they know how much you should make and they're gonna tell you how much you should make until you make too much and then they get rid of you for somebody 20 years younger, you know.

And in sales, it's up to you.

Right.

And you like that.

If I successfully solve people's problems, if I successfully give people experiences and they come back to me time and time again, That gets me a seat at the table.

Yeah. And walk us through like your sale, you know, who do you target? How do you approach them? What's the process?

Well, basically right now in baseball, corporate, you know, corporate entertainment, you know, corporate team building. One of the, one of the big things is employee retention. Well, one of the best ways to retain employees is wine them and dine them and take them to a Great Lakes Loons baseball game. So if you're, if you're looking for employee retention, it's, you know, everybody pretty much, you know, pays the same. So what are those little extras? What are those things that if I work for this company that, you know, I can help that company provide their employees? Or even, you know, they're, you know, they're looking to impress customers. You know, that little, that little extra thing that I can do, you know. So basically, anybody, anybody with a business is my, is my customer, you know. And whether it's season tickets or whether it's a corporate suite, whether it's a venue, whether it's a sponsorship, you know, it all, it all works because everybody's looking for a way to, you know, impress a, impress a client or Or impress their employees, or even, you know, on a regular basis impress family members, you know, because you get a dad coming out to the ballpark and all he wants to do is impress his kids. So if I can give that dad a cell phone moment, you know, I'm in.

And do you get a lot of inbound or is it mostly outbound? Both.

Yeah, both. I have a radio background and radio, uh, you know, advertising and radio sales, you have to be fairly outbound because, you know, especially in advertising, there are so many different ways, you know, to advertise. So if I'm not, I've always approached it like my best customer could leave tomorrow. Okay. So what am I gonna do? And if the pandemic taught us anything, it taught us that, You know, they could take all this away from us and—

Then what?

Yeah, then what do you do? You know, okay, now what? You're starting from zero again.

Well, let's talk about, let's say it's cold outbound. Who do you target within a company? What title?

Depends. Sometimes human resources. I try to target the highest office that I can that I can get into because I know that it all rolls downhill. So if the president or the corporate VP or whatever buy in, all the other ducks will fall in a row.

Yeah.

So, you know, human resources is okay. You know, the sales manager is okay. But if I can get a directive from the top, I can get both the human resources manager and the sales manager and the person in charge of You know, employee engagement, you know, so it's like any sales, you know, the higher up you can go, the better it is.

And how do you get them interested?

Variety of ways. Just, I'm a big emailer. I'm a big, you know, in terms of like I've developed in the 7 years that I've been here, I've developed a list of everybody that I've come in contact with. I, I use video. I think my approach is a little bit different because I like to, you know, and I did this in radio too with, I like to think like the customer. You know, it's from The Godfather, which is the greatest business movie ever. You know, when, when Michael Corleone said that his dad used to teach him to think like other people would think. Well, if I think like other people, if I think like Okay, I'm the corporate VP or I'm the human resource director. If I'm the sales manager, what am I looking for? What are my hot buttons? How do I want to be approached? And just, you know, my— the clients and the customers dictate the way that I call on people.

Yeah. And so let's say they take a meeting or a conversation or a call. How does that go?

What's— Well, hopefully, if I'm, if I'm worth my weight in, in anything, I've, I've done a lot of research on the company. I figured out, I figure out what their strengths are, what their weaknesses are. And what I kind of view is like, look at, here's an opportunity. I've noticed that you've, you know, I've noticed that you're very active in Indeed, and you're looking to recruit employees. Well, one of the things that we can help you with here at the Great Lakes Loons is if you have an employee outing, that would increase employee satisfaction and it might make you attractive to somebody looking for a job.

Yeah.

If you're the sales manager, figuring out that, hey, your sales are going pretty well. But you know what? We could look at who are your A-level customers? Who would you like? Who do you have? Everybody has somebody on their list that they would like to take to the next level. Well, if you let me do my job, I can help you take those clients to the next level.

So you're not talking about the Loons, you're talking about the outcome they get from going to the game.

Right. It's again, it's the experience. I sell the experience and I, you know, I sell the cell phone moments because, you know, that's what matters. You know, the Loons play 66 home games. We have a nice ballpark. No one cares, right? That, that's, that just means something to me, but it doesn't, you know, my job is to think as the, as the customer, think as the client and, and figure out what their needs are. Plus a lot of research goes into that too. I, I prefer not to go into meetings cold. And with today's internet, there's just so much out there. There's no reason why, you know, I should ever go into a meeting And not, not, you know, have a grasp of something. And too, what it does too is the research also gets me instant credibility.

Yeah. And is this a model that you came up with on your own or did somebody teach you or train you or?

I developed it when I was in radio. And if you know anything about radio sales in the mid-'80s when I started, it was pretty much, here's the phone book, kid. Knock them out, you know, and and in three weeks when you get discouraged, we'll bring in somebody else. And here's the phone book, kid, and blah blah blah. Well, you know, I starved for a couple of years, you know, at my job that I was at for thirty years. But by starving, it was a great education. I yeah, I learned the best way possible. There's there's there's nothing. There's no better teacher than going in and getting your butt kicked.

Yeah. And that happened, huh?

Oh, numerous times. I mean, you know, it was like, you know, fall down, get back up, fall down, get back up, you know, stay down.

What's the hardest part of the sale?

Um, I don't know.

No, it's all easy.

No, it's not easy, but it's understandable. You know, it's, if, you know, again, with sales, if I can figure out the problem and I can solve your problem, okay, I can't make anybody buy anything they don't want. I've always held that, you know, maybe once, you know, you can talk somebody into something.

Right.

But like with with baseball and the Loons or with radio, my previous career, where you make the money is the repeat customers.

Yeah.

And if you can continue to solve people's problems, then they're gonna let you in because I would rather be in the, you know, be in the boardroom when the decisions are being made as a resource As opposed to being the guy criticizing the decisions 2 days after they've been made, and I can't really do anything there. But it all smacks back to credibility and delivering results.

And for the people who are listening who haven't heard of the Loons, why the Loons?

Single-A, High-A affiliate of the Los Angeles Dodgers. You know, that's a That we've had a lot of major leaguers start their careers here. Clayton Kershaw started his career here, and if you watch Dodgers in the World Series, six of their starters all started here. And you know, I I enjoy the sports, and actually I enjoy the the contacts. Like last night we had a game, and I had the the president of a multi multi. State dealership. He was in one suite. I had the president of a credit union in another venue. I had 3 other high-powered local attorneys in another suite. The contacts that I can make are just amazing. And I just, I enjoy that. And I, you know, I enjoy when they walk out of the ballpark and I know that I did it right. And they're gonna come back.

And let's say you have that first call. How do you keep the deal moving? Because I'm sure they're curious about it. Maybe they're even interested in doing it. But how do you— you're trying to sell what, season tickets or—

Season tickets, venues like suites, or I think it's up to you to kind of create a little urgency.

Yeah.

If I'm excited about it, they'll be excited about it. You know, and, and that holds true with any product. You know, if, you know, I think that people can really sense going through the motions.

Yeah.

And if, if I'm excited about it and I can build a little excitement, you know, on that first call and get you interested and, you know, invite you out to the ballpark for a tour, you know, that's always a good thing. You know, let you, let you test drive a seat. Sit in this seat now. Just imagine yourself in this seat for 66 home games. And just little things like that. Now, not everybody does it, but if you call on enough people, you will get enough people.

And it is a volume game or is it a networking game?

Yes.

It's everything, huh?

Yes. Yeah. All of the above. Well, Because again, I always approach it like my best client, my best customer could leave today.

Yeah.

And, you know, you've always got to be out there, you know, aggressively looking for the next customer because again, one thing COVID has taught us, you never know. You know, the business that is here today, might not be here tomorrow. You know, if you, if you made your living calling on VCR repair shops, you, you know, you better have, uh, you better have, you know, broadened your horizons.

And I, I get the, the president or the leader of the company, I get the sales manager, but how about HR? I mean, they're kind of even-keeled, Nice people, but not incredibly aggressive or challenger or mavericks within the company.

HR people tend to wanna, you know, they know that, you know, and so, you know, hey, I can make you a star in your organization.

Yeah.

Okay. Because nobody's turning it to the HR person at the meeting and going, all right. Yeah. You know, usually, usually when somebody thinks of an HR person, they're rolling their eyes. Hey, how would you like to be looked at in a good light?

Yeah.

How would you like to do something that everybody will be thanking you for at the end of the evening? Or, you know, with season tickets, 66 home games, you know, how would you like the sales manager or the salespeople to come back to you and thank you for purchasing season tickets because they just landed a big deal because we got some customer's kid on the field and an autograph with the mascot.

Yeah.

And you're the, you know, as the HR director, you can be the cause of that. Yeah. You can start that.

How many of these 66 games do you go to?

Oh, all of them.

Really?

Oh yeah. Yeah. You got to. You know, you've got to. If I sell it, I have to service it.

Yeah.

I want to be there when, you know, and 2, it's great to interact with people because a ballgame is a great setting as opposed to like a business meeting because people are a little bit looser at a ballgame. People are a little bit, hey, how are you? And there's more opportunities at a game for me to create that cell phone moment. Like, it's, it's amazing how, for example, a couple of well-placed hats can, can make somebody's night. And again, if you've got, if you've got an important client, and they've got their kids at the game, you know, wow, you got my kids on the field to sing Happy Birthday, you know, kind of sign sound, you know, again, we created that cell phone moment, we created that experience.

And do you think your marketing, because that's kind of creative, did your marketing background help you with that?

Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, and too, I was in radio. I did morning radio for 26 years.

That must have been fun.

Well, it was great. There's no better immediate response You know, I didn't, I, you know, if you, if you do something on a morning radio show, when you, you know, the response is right there, you get that feedback and you, okay, this was good. Keep doing this. This didn't really go so well. So keep, you know, so, and that's kind of what I, you know, you kind of carry that over to marketing and you kind of carry that over to sales.

Yeah. And are you one of many salespeople? Are you the salesperson or?

There are like 8 of us. Wow.

Yeah, that's a—

yeah, there are 8 of us.

And what makes a great salesperson in this space?

Well, like any salesperson, you know.

Well, I mean, you, you've done stuff that I certainly wouldn't have thought of, but that work.

Well, I think, you know, I have a, I have a big thing like, you know, unqualified gratitude. You know, be grateful for what I— I'm grateful for what I have.

Yeah.

You know, a couple of years ago, I had a couple of strokes and I had to wait in the hospital for 6 days to have surgery. And my whole goal was not to die during those 6 days. That teaches you gratitude, you know, because everybody can look at, you know, what they don't have. But, you know, I look at what I have and, you know, what makes a great salesperson is just somebody who wants to help others. You know, if I can, if I can, you know, help people accomplish their goals, whether it's an advertising or marketing thing, whether it's a baseball game, whether it's a whatever, you know, I'll be successful. You know, it's that helping people, you know, I don't, you know, I'm not a, I'm not a good salesperson in the, in the traditional, like, I can't, you know, I don't know the, you know, the flashcard objections. I don't know any of that. The, you know, my— The 72 closes. Yeah, my CRM is probably a little shabby, but I know that if I can solve a person's problem, if I can become a resource to that person, I'm always going to get the business as opposed to the The flashy, I can answer any objection that you have, throw at me, go ahead and give it to me.

But I mean, the problem that you're solving is a latent problem, meaning that they're not actively thinking about it. Nobody's saying, you know, which game should we go to this year? They're kind of, but they, you're solving, you know, any parent wants to be a star in front of their kid, right?

Yeah. I'm making aware of them, aware of something that they might not know.

Yeah.

Or even in advertising, you know, by helping people, you know, when I was selling advertising, you know, helping businesses grow their business, you know, that's a really cool feeling to walk into a business. And because you helped that client win, because you've helped that client increase market share or accomplish their goal, You're a rock star. Yeah, you know, you just— it's great.

I bet. And do the other reps kind of like copy you, or do they do the show up and tell them about the loons?

Well, I, I have a, I have a theory that, that 10 to 15% of people in life will be successful, and the rest will just complain about the 10 to 15% that'll be successful. You know, it's, it's like with, with, with anything, you know, you know, I can't make you want it. That has to come from inside, you know. And, you know, I've got a, I've got a couple of sons that are very successful. They're twins. One of them's in supply chain at British Aeronautics, and the other is a second-year medical doctor at the Cleveland Clinic. And, and they've all both been self-motivated. You know, I can give you the tools, but I can't teach you to, you know, it, you know, what are you doing at 3:30 in the afternoon? Are you making that last call? Are you preparing for the next day? Or are you preparing, you know, what bar?

Happy hour.

Happy hour, right? You know, I can tell a successful salesperson, you know, by what they're doing at 3:30 in the afternoon.

And where'd this drive come from for you?

I don't know. I just—

Oh, come on. Were you this way as a kid?

Yeah. You were? Okay. No. Yeah. I think you just have it. You just, you know, I think that that, that, you know, some people have it in them. And if you just, if you just, you know, put— if you're put in the right circumstances, they foster that and, and, and they grow. You know, a lot of people would say mine was built out of a huge inferiority complex.

Well, usually there's something, right? There's either you grow up without something, or you want something, or you have a chip on your shoulder for some reason, or you didn't fit into school, or somebody told you you couldn't do it. So you do it.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I'm a, I'm a recovering alcoholic. I haven't had a drink in 37 years. You know, January 27th, 1986 was my last. So I would imagine there's some psychological or like inferiority or just wanted to be included, wanted to fit in. I'm sure there's some of that in there.

Well, do you become connected to work? Does work become your buzz, your high, your passion?

To an extent, yeah. But one of the things I've learned, and this is what helped me with kids, is, you know, I never take work home because the lines blur.

Right.

You know, then all of a sudden, there is no home.

It's just work.

Right. I can, I would rather work a few extra hours at the office and come home and say, you know, okay, kids, you've, you've only got me for 3 hours tonight, but you have my total undivided attention. As opposed to, you know, I could be home 2 hours earlier and be on the laptop. And I, you know, kind of do a prairie dog and look up every 20 minutes to see who's still there and then prairie dog down back on my laptop. Yeah, you have to have that balance.

Well, especially when you go into 66 games a year. Yeah, that takes up a little bit of time too.

Well, and in broadcasting, I was both on the air and sales, so I would get into the station about 4 in the morning and I would leave at 6 at night. So you just have to have that. You have to have that separation.

Yeah.

But then again, that's— you have to realize what's important.

Yeah. Hey, it's been a great conversation, Joe. Where can people go to connect and follow you and learn more about the Loons?

Well, they can go to LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn and just go to loons.com and you can grab me there. I would be happy to, you know, talk to anybody, you know, because I think I think salespeople need to be other salespeople's best friends.

Now, see, if he took the classic A-player approach, maybe a top-down, bottom-up approach, uh, he'd do pretty good. But he took a Maverick approach. He was really trying to understand the experience. What is the outcome that his customers What is that process? What does success look like for them? What does it feel like for them— not for you, for them, your client— to experience that ball game with their client or their child? It's pretty captivating when somebody is able to do that and usher and guide That person through that journey. I think it's kind of inspiring if you can connect with another human being. And this is really what I'm teaching in Start the Conversation, Get the Meeting, is that the company forgets why they hired salespeople because they could just put all this spam stuff in their marketing automation and just spam the world. But they know that people connect. Now, that word connect, you can't see the connection. You can only feel it. You can't touch it. You can only feel it. And you know this because think about the people that you have as friends, not acquaintances, but as friends, people you want to talk with. People you want to spend time with. That connection that you have, maybe it's about a common topic or experience in your life, or maybe they're a good listener. Maybe they care about you. Maybe they are interested in you, or they may want to help you. Sounding familiar? See, this is what sales is all about. It gets polluted with activity. It gets polluted with stereotypes from the media or bad experiences that people have had through their life or just bad sales experiences. But that's not what we're talking about on this podcast. What I am teaching and sharing with you is just the pinnacle of the sales profession because it is A profession. It should be, at least. We don't get treated that way a lot, and we have to fight through the bureaucracy and the administrative, uh, blanket of stupidity that people call leadership today. But that's our job. And when, when I hear a B-player on LinkedIn talk about Oh, my manager won't let me. Well, my manager won't let me either, but I never let that stop me from doing what needs to be done the right way in sales. And the right way, it's not unethical, illegal, immoral. No, it's just different. It's actually better. And when people see it, people are like, why didn't we do that before? Maybe it's because we have that limiting belief that I can only do what my manager tells me to. Well, here's the secret. The manager's kind of like parents. They give over-restraining advice because they know you're not going to listen to them. That's why they do it. They set high activity KPIs because they know you're not gonna do it. They send— they set it at 100 because they know you're only going to do 50. And guess what? They don't pay you for activity. They pay you for results.

They—

the base is just so that you pay attention to them. The commission Is for you to figure out how to get it done. And if you go to them, they're going to tell you just do more of it, work harder, stick with it, don't give up, which is just platitudes. It's not really advice or help. It's just, uh, I don't want to think about it. This is what my manager told me. This is what I'll tell you. But when you really look At the game. Now listen to the creativity that you saw demonstrated in this interview. Several examples: bringing clients to the game, making sure they get pictures with the mascot, get down on the field. Now I bet the first time he did that, people got their feathers ruffled. Oh, we can't do that. That's special. You— do you have permission? Oh, wait a second. Did you fill out the form? The form on the field -4? Did you fill out that form? Screw the form. We're here to do magic. Great sales is a lot like magic. Magic is not that it's a mystery and nobody understands it. Magic is doing stuff that people don't understand. And a lot of people, you know, get on me about, oh, it's not magic, it's just hard work. If it was just hard work, everyone would be good at it. Everybody works hard. Magic comes from connecting with other people, understanding what they want, giving it to them, finding a way of making that happen. And if you sit in the box, you sit in that little cubicle that has been designed for you, and you just do what you're told, you know, at best you're going to be a B player. You got to be creative. You got to think outside that box, and you got to want to do it and feel good about it. What, what did you hear from Joe today? Is he doing this just for money? He feels good about it. He's helping his clients out. His clients love the experience of going to that game. And I'm sure you're thinking, well, what I sell doesn't have that experience characteristic. But the interaction with you does. When people light up when you call them, When people light up when they hear from you, when they look forward to the next conversation with you. What? Is that possible? It is. Find a way. Create a way. If you don't know, join Start the Conversation. Get the meeting. That's it. It's all about the psychology, the science behind selling. But applying it in a practical, realistic, step-by-step way and getting good at it. Because once you get good at it, then you need to learn how to close that complex sale. And some sales are a little bit more complex than others. And here's the secret. Your client doesn't know how to buy. Sorry. They didn't go to buying school. They probably haven't bought something in a long time. At the company, and they don't know the administrative, the political. They may know the technical process, but the rest of it is a black box to them. I open up that black box for you, and I show you what's in it, and I show you how it works, because I've been on both sides. I've been in procurement. I've been an engineer. I've been a sales rep forever. And guess what? I wanted to win every deal I played in. I was insanely competitive and driven. And what I learned through that process, I want to share with you. Do you want to learn it, or do you just want to be comfortable in your box? We'll see you next time. Make sure you're checking out the Sales Questions Brutally Honest Answers Show. If you're in the sales leadership space, I got a podcast for you, and I named it the Sales Leadership Show. We'll see you next time.