THE #1 SKILL TO TAKE TRUST TO A NEW LEVEL IN B2B SALES AND SELLING

Let me ask you this. Have you ever felt one day when you're prospecting that, uh, my clients, they just don't get it? Here we've got this great product that solves a problem that I know they have, and I try and communicate with them, but they're just not getting it. I've felt that so many times through my career, and it's natural. And that's one of the topics we're going to be talking about today, is how do you Manage your emotions around that. And I assumed it was empathy, but that's only partially correct. What it is is a lot more. We'll get into it in the interview, uh, but before we do, have you checked out Brevity yet? brevitypitch.com. The product— I'm spending my weekends and nights Developing my sales skills with an AI interactively, verbally. And it's fun, educational, and I think you'd really enjoy it too. I put out a demo of it on my YouTube channel, and if you think it's a match for what you guys are facing, bring your manager and get a demo of it at brevitypitch.com. Here we go with the interview. I'll sum it up at the end. But listen to the outro on this one because the distinctions here are subtle but critical. Here we go.

Hey, Ian, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Yeah. So, my name is Ian Franklin. I've been in sales Really, the way I look at it now, the majority of my life, my initial reaction to calling myself a salesperson was less enthusiastic, I would say. And it wasn't until somewhere along the line I realized it doesn't matter the situation, you're selling something, right? Whatever we're involved in, we're selling something, whether it's to ourselves, Or, uh, or to other folks. But, um, so really from a young age, got involved in some different jobs that allowed me to sell things in some way to people and, um, got into the industry that I'm in in 2005 by chance. Just folks at my church that had a need for a salesperson and found I could do it pretty well. Was able to read a room and understand what people needed. And had a lot of success and a lot of fun kind of traveling the country, learning a little bit more about America and the people that make it up and just the wild differences from state to state and region to region.

Wow.

Yeah, yeah, it's remarkable. It's remarkable how peaceful the country is. I know it's a crazy time, but there are crazy differences from state to state, but learning to kind of appreciate those differences and appreciate the folks that make them up. And then just kind of having continued success in B2B sales, working specifically in kind of secure documents, being able to produce those. And then I guess it was 2018, started down the sales management track and now am Director of Sales and Marketing for a small company in Newtown, Pennsylvania that does printing and mailing of secure documents for all sorts of companies.

And what was the impetus to make the leap into sales?

I think opportunity was probably the biggest factor. I always thought that I'd kind of go into a law track. I thought I'd be a lawyer.

Really?

And had an opportunity to take a sales job while I was painting houses actually with my dad. And I was painting a very nice house. And the guy happened to own a— he owned a car dealership. And I got into car sales. And that's what led me down the track of sales. Yeah.

And what about the law attracted you?

I think the, the right and wrong. I think that you could arrive at a place where where there's a lot of gray, you discern something, you land in a place that's less gray. And I think at the same time, the malleability of it, right? So you've got these, you know, opposed viewpoints and these, these different ideas, but you're able to, to kind of sometimes thread a needle and get to a place that you might not expect. So I like the adventure part of the, of the law, I think.

Yeah. And what part of sales do you like best? Is it the meeting new people? Is it the closing? Is it the puzzle, the maze?

Yeah, that's a great question. So I think the majority of my life, I'd say the people, right? That I think to be good at sales, you have to, at some place inside of you, you have to care about people, right? You have to think that they matter. And as I've gotten older, I'm appreciating different aspects of it. And recently a lot of it has been like, there's a lot of work you can do on yourself and who you are, who you want to be in the midst of a sales process, right? And so I would say like I've been doing a lot of thinking about anxiety recently and how that comes out in me.

Yeah.

And ways that I can control it, ways that I can flex with it and ways that I can use it. So I think probably again, kind of the adventure side, there's not an exact blueprint from one sales engagement to another. There's gonna be nuance and I like that part of it.

And what makes you, what do you think makes you a great salesperson?

Great, great. I don't know, that makes me uncomfortable, the word great. Uh, I think I'm pretty good. I think I'm getting, uh, which is good. Um, but I think that, uh, I'm getting more and more comfortable and confident in who I am in a given situation, right? And keeping, um, I guess keeping tethers to, to that foundation. Enables you to pivot when a situation demands it. And so I think I'm pretty good at that. I can read the room. I can usually get a pretty good idea of people's motivations and what's gonna help them get over hurdles.

Yeah.

So being able to help people clear those hurdles in as easy a way or quick a way as possible. I think that's, that has aided me probably more than any other skill.

I think that's the critical skill because I think a lot of salespeople think it makes logical sense for them to buy my product. They'd be crazy not to buy my product, but they don't care, right?

You gotta think like them.

What are they going through?

You have to be able to see. And actually, it's really funny. You had said the word empathy before we started. And I was just talking to a friend of mine about this word, and I find that compassion is a better motivator, that I'm going to recognize the hangups and not like— I had a sales mentor for years who would kind of always come back to this word of, well, they're an idiot. And it's helpful. Yes, it was terrible. It was terrible. And we, I think as salespeople, we all have felt that frustration. Yeah, that place where you're like, this doesn't make sense. Like you said, it's logical, they should buy my product because we're not selling something bad. We're selling something that's gonna help them, right? But we, so we get to that emotional place of gotta be an idiot.

It's obvious.

But being able to see, here are the things that are in their way, right? And I care about them enough to not disregard them and call them an idiot, right? Even internally, right? I'm going to quickly get past that phase to the place where now I'm trying to get creative about how to help them clear it, sometimes without even knowing they're being helped in clearing it, right?

Yeah.

I'm going to try to remove some of those roadblocks because at the end of the day, I do believe firmly I got what they need. I have something good for them, you know, and it's not just, you know, it's not just self, you know, obviously, I want to get paid. You know, I want to win. I want to win. But this is, and this is a little tangential, but this, it kind of goes back to something my dad impressed on me. And I don't know if he used these exact words, but it was around the time that I bought my first car. He was trying to help me navigate the purchase of my first car. It was a '92 Saab 900. And we met a guy at a gas station. And this is when you could buy a car cash, when used cars were reasonably priced. And I knew about the budget that we had. And we went in and my dad asked the guy, you know, what's the best price you can do? And he said a number that was within our budget. And my eyes lit up, and I was, and I said to my dad, "We can do that." And my dad said, "Go wait in the car." Yeah. But he said, and then he turned. This was brilliant. He turned to the guy. He said, "Hey, I'm trying to teach my son about negotiating here too." And he said, "I can't. I can't take your first number." And so, and they worked it out. They worked out the deal. But on the way back, my dad told me. A deal is only a good deal when it's good for both parties, right? And recognizing I gotta have something of value and it's gotta be worth it for me. And that's really great to arrive at that place. Like, that's a really good human interaction and we can foster that all the time, you know, regardless of if it's a sales deal or not.

I'm curious, what's your definition of compassion in the sales context?

Yeah, so I think it really is related to kind of that theme of seeing pain that they're experiencing, right? And it could be pain that they easily leave at the office, or it could be something that keeps them up at night, you know? But recognizing there are serious problems that we can help fix that are gonna improve the performance, sometimes the mental health and family life of some of these folks.

Yeah.

And that I want them to have relief from that. And so that often comes up for me, kind of a reminder of that comes up when I'm getting to a negotiating place. And I know, you know what, I might be able to make more on this, but it could risk the deal a little bit, or I might be able to give a little bit here to aid the speed of this deal, and it's worth it. It's worth giving a little bit here. And so I think the compassion comes out there sometimes too. But I think it is, it's rooted in caring about people and the circumstances they face.

And how did you get past that logic part from your first sales mentor? Because I think a lot of reps stick in the logical and they can't get past it.

I think a help for me was seeing how it seemed to eat him up, you know, and I think another one was probably I had a long-running deal. So the sales engagements in my world will last 9 months to 2 years sometimes, right?

Wow.

There's a lot of ebbs and flows. There's a lot of sticking with it. And there was a particularly complex deal that really was the most challenging of my career and was probably the biggest breakthrough for me to realize I can do this. I can do this at a high level. And we were told no in the deal. They chose the other vendor. It came down to us and another, and they chose this deal, and it was a very substantial contract. And I felt that instinct of, you gotta be kidding me, there's no way, right? This is the dumbest thing.

Yeah.

And, um, and then pressed through and crafted probably one of the most important emails I've ever written, um, that kind of laid out the case of how this is best for him to reconsider. And he did, he reconsidered it. We got 2 more meetings and we got the contract. They went back on choosing this other vendor because of the case that I was able to lay out. And if I had any hint in that email of, you're an idiot, there's no way we'd get that other at-bat. You know what I mean?

Wow.

And I think that it's pragmatic more than anything of, I can't stay there. Like, there's no chance, you know, maybe I'll feel good for a minute of like othering them, you know, but But I, I'm not going to win there and they're not going to either. Yeah.

And you're selling to banks. Is that the primary market?

That was a bank. We sell to banks, we sell to credit unions, we sell to insurance companies and utilities and mortgage servicing and all kind of anything that's any industry that's regulated, has some compliance that they're under. and has large amounts of communications, whether it's mail or electronic.

And what's important to them? Is it cost? Is it traceability, the security of what you do? Or—

Those are great questions, Brian. So I would say it kind of ebbs and flows a little bit in the industry. So I think cost consciousness was a big piece of it in like the '05 through 2012, and then everybody outsourced to somebody, and then it really was service. And the thing that has kind of risen to the top and been a constant differentiator for us is the people. So, and that's, that can be cliché, but I think it's more that kind of in line with what we're talking about, even on a customer service level, is that there's compassion there. There's legitimate care for if your business is helped. and your job is made easier, then I'm doing my job, that kind of thing. So I think that's kind of distinguished itself over the years.

And what's the persona on the client side that typically is responsible for looking at the product that you sell?

So typically it, and that's also gonna vary a little bit. It's gonna, sorry, it's gonna be SVPs, EVPs. Is that high up? Yeah, anybody related to operations. So CIOs, COOs.

Wow.

So typically that's not an easy persona.

No, and it's not. I think probably the most difficult piece of that is that it's not a consistent persona. So from industry to industry, you got different personality types that are in there. For the most part, they're gonna be pretty conscientious, you know, for the most part, they're gonna be in the back of their mind budget conscious. But you got, you got some pretty wild swings in there too, which makes it more fun.

And I gotta imagine they try and push you into the commodity trap very quickly.

Yeah. Oh, for sure. And that, that was not the case early on in my career. It was more, you know, we had a solution they desperately needed, you know, take my money. You know, and now there are options out there. And really what you get to demonstrate over time is, hey, we actually get it, we understand what you're doing, and we can help you with the ins and outs of that. And we have done it enough that we aren't reinventing any wheels for you.

Yeah.

Let's go down this track as a partner, not just as a vendor.

And how do you get them to see that partnership and the value of that before you actually do it?

I would say more than anything else with stories. Yeah. So if you can't tell a compelling story, you're gonna have a really hard time with sales, I think. And that to me is an exciting thing that's, you know, a little bit of a tether to like early society stuff. Like we learn through stories, we learn even how to emote better through hearing people's stories, you know. And so being able to invite someone into the truth that someone else experienced is like a safe way to dip a toe in foreign waters, you know what I mean? If you've heard, oh, they're like me, and now in that story, I'm putting myself in that story, you know, you're inviting them to, you know, a little proof of concept that's imaginary on the very front end.

Yeah, because I think a lot of reps again stick with the features, functions, the— some unique thing that the company has, which is good.

But it's great if you can get it.

But it also requires the client to map that to their reality, where a story, you're telling them how it maps to their reality without telling them it maps to their reality.

Yep. Yep. Well, and you're letting them, you're letting them discover that in a sense through the arc of the story and the connections it naturally has to them. Yeah. So that would, I'd say that's probably the number one way to say this is not just a commodity you're purchasing. This is a partnership we're both gonna invest in over time.

And have you found people who don't appreciate that, who like, It's a thing. Here's an RFP, bid on it.

For sure. And for the most part, we try to lose early on those ones, you know, recognizing, hey, let's— this isn't our best use of energy and money and time. So let's avoid the RFP unless we've got a kind of an end around to build relationship in the midst of it. So When, because there are structural things and that's probably one of the biggest difficulties, probably where I stay in that idiot response the most now is the RFP trap, is that the vast majority of companies that go through it hate the results and they've tortured themselves with this process because somebody else did it and it's like, you know, it's an internal IBM purchase, right? Nobody got in trouble for doing an exhaustive RFP. It's like you should.

Well, it's stupid. I mean, do you buy a car that way? Do you buy a house that way?

It's, and it usually cuts them off, the decision makers and the team from the things they're gonna actually care about the most.

Yeah.

The things that long term make it a fruitful partnership. So it's tough because when you don't have rapport, it's really hard to tell that to somebody.

Right.

And he's gonna get you, you know.

Yeah, they want to keep you at arm's length and they're telling you you're a commodity.

Well, and I think that that goes— this is a little bit, this is a little bit tangential as well, but that I think goes to a societal push that we've had, like, um, where we think that, uh, something that's more, um, less emotional or less engaged or cleaner is better.

Yes.

And I actually tie that to the, what I think is a wrong thing where we've been led to believe you never talk about politics or religion. And so now everybody stinks at talking about politics and religion, right? You, it's inflamed immediately because it's this instead of like, yeah, you should talk about that like a human to people who you care about, right? And I think it's a similar thing where we're dissociating from the things that we actually care about the most. And it's not to our better end. Yeah.

And what was your motivation to get into leadership? Was it a natural progression or was it something you desired or?

I think there was a desire to it. Um, I think that, uh, I saw, I think probably some of it came from, I don't really like the way that I've been led in different ways in the past. Um, and I think that I would respond to these things a little better. So maybe I can put that into practice. And then I think some of it was just need, you know, we as a company had a need for that role to be filled and I could do it. So circumstance played a part for sure.

Well, let's dig into that. What did you not like that you now fixed as a leader?

Now that I'm—

You don't have to put names or anything.

No, no, that I'm now endeavoring to fix. I'll say that. I don't know if my team would say everything's fixed. But I think so there's some standard things about sales, especially when you're a remote salesperson that my personal experience would say that KPIing people to death doesn't actually help, right? Reporting everything does not actually help. Now, I've had a ton of different experience with different kinds of CRMs and loathed them to different varying degrees. And I think that honestly part of that is just the view of it on the front end and I wanted to kind of demystify some of that for my team. And these are tools that can help us and they're not, you know, they're not Big Brother tools, right?

Yeah.

And so I think shifting my team away from that, like constant microscope kind of focus, understanding you're gonna produce and we'll see the revenue or we won't, right? That's the beauty of sales. You produce or you don't. I'm gonna help as much as I can along the way, But the numbers are gonna come out. And so if I try to get and control every little piece along the way, I'm probably gonna strangle you, you know.

And what I've seen is that it's become the focus where the focus used to be the conversation between the manager and the rep. Now the conversations between the manager, the CRM and the rep, right?

Yeah, no, I can see that. For sure. And I think that's probably a biggest, a bigger strength of mine is that I'm much more interested in the conversation with the rep and see more fruit in that. And I would say I'm probably, so I'm a selling director as well. So like I have a book of business, right? And I think that helps me be a little bit more in tune with some of the challenges and be able to give real-time advice of, hey, this is working, right? I just got success with this piece. But I stink at that side too sometimes, you know, of getting all the numbers in the right way and all of that. So I've got some, you know, like you were talking about empathy, I've got some empathy on that side of things.

That's it.

And anyone can enter stuff into a CRM, doesn't make it true. That's right.

That's right.

And we're all smart enough to know what our manager wants to see.

Yeah. Yeah. So there's always some gaming the system. Yeah. Yeah.

But if the manager helps and you want their help, that's, that's the dialogue you want. Yeah.

And there can be some real value there. Hopefully not just, yeah, not just a filled up column in a spreadsheet.

Was there any epiphanies that you had that first year as a manager that you were like, well, this is a lot different than I anticipated?

Yeah, I think that I had the idea and I think probably a good amount of successful salespeople have this idea that if people would just do it the way I do it, they'll be successful like me.

That's a big mistake.

Yeah. I had to be disabused of that notion through You know, like I really thought, man, if I travel with each of my guys and they see the way that I manage a meeting and run an agenda and, you know, bob and weave in the midst of it, they're just gonna do that, right?

Yeah.

And the reality is they are their own person and that person is gonna interact in that situation differently than I would. And thank God, right? We don't want a bunch of robot salespeople out there. Now, are there, are there tips and tricks that I've learned over the years that should be helpful? Absolutely. Are there some things that you say, don't do that, don't ever say that again? For sure, right? But, but giving— I think that's probably the biggest lesson in my first year of it was give space for the personality that you have on the team. And if, if that personality is going to sell, it's not gonna be because that personality starts looking more like my personality.

And did your motivation adapt to the leadership? Because, and it's a little bit different because you're player-coach where you've got deals and stuff, and reps tend to get very emotionally attached to them being the, the player that wins the game and gets the trophy. And now the manager's kind of—

Yeah. Doesn't get the trophy. I think for me, that was an easy, that was a real easy hurdle to clear because of my commitment to this particular company. So it's a family-owned company that I was with. I started with them in 2005, left for a time, was with a couple different companies and came back to, to, to really with the motivation of I want to see them take the next step in their evolution. It's second generation of ownership. The new owner is about my age, and I just feel a lot of camaraderie with the group here, but also the success, you know, feel a lot of ownership over the success of the company. And so for me, I was like, I don't care who wins, we gotta win, you know. That was, I think that helped a lot. There's not this, no, it's gotta be my show kind of thing.

And what do you see as the key differentiator between the best reps and the okay reps?

That is a, that's a really good question, especially at review time. We're doing a lot of reviews here. And I would say kind of head on a swivel ready for the next thing. I know I've fallen into the trap of I got the deal, right? And that pipeline doesn't tolerate that.

By natural.

Yeah, that doesn't tolerate that. So we have to have our eye on the next thing. And so I think that's probably the biggest thing that stands out amongst the best sales reps are they're always ready for what's next and planning on it in the midst of the success that's about to come to fruition. Right? They're not taking their eye off of any step in the pipeline.

So that consistency over time instead of the quarterly roller coaster.

Correct. Yeah. And in our world, it's really like even an annual roller coaster because of the length of some of these deals. So I guess the short answer is always be closing, right?

So you always And what do you see, or when you're interviewing, what's a red flag to you? Because something that you just, this isn't gonna work out.

Yeah, that's a, that is a really good question because we've, we've had different experiences where you hear some. So For me, an interview is an obvious time for a salesperson to shine, right? Like if you're in sales, you probably like for me, I love interviewing. Like it's fun. I get to kind of be on and show off a little bit, right? And so I think we've had some interviews actually in the last couple years where people didn't sell themselves, and they just they were. A little too humble, right? And, but probably the biggest thing that I've seen more and more in person because we still push for in-person meetings and interviews is eye contact, not making eye contact.

Really? Yeah.

And in sales, it's, it has been a bit of a concerning trend for me to see how many folks are used to being in front of a camera and they're great on Zoom, but in person they're not there yet. So that would be a big red flag for me, which I think is probably pretty obvious.

Yeah, because I'm sensing there's a lot of reactivity today versus proactivity and sales is, I think, 100% proactive.

Yeah, there's a big hesitancy to be the one that acts first. Or be the person that steps out because then, you know, then it's your responsibility what happens next. And nobody loves that feeling, it seems more and more as time goes on.

Hey, Ian, thanks for joining us today. And where would people go to connect with you? Yeah.

So my company's website is printmailsolutions.com. And, you know, I'm on LinkedIn, love to connect with anybody who would have Either interest in a conversation about sales or personal growth, or would like any services around printing and mailing critical documents. So appreciate the opportunity, Brian. It was a lot of fun.

Now, after I turned the recorder on, I got a distinction with Ian that I want to share with you since it didn't make it into the interview. If and if you don't understand. Like I didn't. The differences, the distinctions between compassion and empathy. Empathy is feeling what the other person is going through. Compassion has the focus of going with the other person to solve the problem. It's not just a feeling, it's the action, the caring about Solving it with them. Let's say you have a friend who is stuck, his car broke down. Empathy is understanding how frustrating that is, how inconvenient it is, all the challenges with it. Compassion is not only feeling that, but wanting to solve it. Calling a tow truck, going and picking them up. Uh, you know, helping them get home in some way. It's that compassion piece that I think we're missing today, and we don't think about it until we engage with the client. Now, these are the tough situations in sales, the cold prospecting stages of sales. Anyone can take an order. And do you need much compassion to take an order? None, or little. But if you're doing cold prospecting, we run into this, you know, what Ian called the idiot factor, where we think our prospects are idiots because they don't get how important our product or service can be to their world and their life. And this is It's just naive. It's not really putting yourself in their place, what they have to go through. Is this an active pain or a latent pain? The guy stuck on the side of the road is active pain. Latent pain is the person knows their car is going to drop any day now, but they continue to drive it. So they know they need to fix their car, replace their car, But they don't because it still works. See where I'm going here? Our clients are still making it through the day without us. What we need to do is understand that and be able to communicate what they're going to be facing with symptom questions. And this is one of the things that I really focus on and start the conversation, get them That course is helping reps understand where the client is so that you can build up the conversation to get them to where you want to be. We naively think it's going to be through our little cadence, our pitch, our commercial, our spam. And we know everyone thinks theirs is valuable. I've been talking a lot about this on LinkedIn in the last month or so, and everyone thinks theirs is valuable, yet it's not working. So there's the disconnect. We think it's valuable, but it's not working. How can it be valuable if it's not working? It's valuable to us, our ego, our feelings, not to what the client is going through or what they want to accomplish. So This is where compassion can kick in and help you through that process. If you're challenged with that, start the conversation, get the meetings, the course for you. It is what we need today because we're not getting that warm inbound that we used to get, if you ever got it. And I do this all day, and I used to run into this idiot factor all the time. And I'm catching myself now because a lot of the people that I work with, they just, they don't know how to evaluate it. They don't know how to interpret it. They assume it's a lie or it's exaggerated so that they can protect themselves and don't have to change. So you have to warm them up. You can't go with them directly. The person who's stuck on the side of the road, they want help. They're inbound, or they're very close to inbound. The person's car who is going to die, you know, in a day or a year, uh, they got time, or they think they have time, which is even more dangerous. And it's our job to accelerate that with them. So if this is a skill you want to develop, go to b2brevenue.com and check out Start the conversation, get the meeting. Because if you become good at this, there's no stopping you. Because less than 1% of our market is actively looking for a solution. Everyone thinks it's much higher— 3%, 5%, 10%. It's tiny. And I can also tell you how to determine how many people are in market just by using some reverse engineering. But once we realize that, then we kind of start understanding why our value proposition, sales-ready messaging, isn't landing. We get it. They don't because they're not there yet. We have to get them there yet. And you can't do that with your spam cannon. You have to do that in a systematic way. It can still be email. It can still be phone calls. It can still be social, but it can't be as blunt as what people are doing because you're really pushing them away instead of pulling them in. And we want them in because we only get paid on the deals that close. Thanks for listening. Really appreciate it. If you see my stuff fly by on LinkedIn, give it a like, a little comment, a little share. We'll see you next time.