THE #1 THING THAT THE WORLD'S BEST SALESPEOPLE DO EVERYDAY

Have you ever noticed that I use the same word, or the same word is coming up on so many of these interviews with great salespeople? And that word's conversation. It's not sales pitch. It's not magic words. It's not value proposition or magical insights. Oh yeah, aren't insights the future of selling? Yeah, it's been 10 years. How's that working for you? What we find is the The conversations were the magic because no one's going to believe anything until they know, like, and trust you. You believe you, but that doesn't matter. It only matters if the other person believes you. So we're going to get into this today. And if you're in the courses, make sure you're checking out the office hours. We had a great one yesterday. It's more case study-based now than ever. And we're putting a lot more energy into real-world case studies. So that you can build off of what other people are doing and get your questions answered. And make sure you're checking out our friends over at Scratchpad. And if you happen to be between jobs, they're hiring salespeople right now. But here's a secret. Make sure you check out the product first so that you know what it's selling and you know all about it and you're passionate about it. That'll get you the job. And tell them Brian sent you. And if you have to use Salesforce, check out Scratchpad. It's the easiest, funnest way to get the data out of your head into the CRM and your manager off your back. Link is in the show notes below. They have a free one-on-one for podcast listeners, but make sure you tell them Brian sent you. Here we go with the interview.

Hey, John, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

You're welcome, Brian. It's my pleasure to be here. So, man, I don't even know where to start. Let's start with this. I've been in sales for, it's hard to believe, you know, 30 years.

Is that all?

It's— I can't even believe it's been that long, you know. When I stop and I think about that, I think about my kids' ages now, and I think about you being a grandfather now, and I think about, wow, it just seemed like I was just getting started in sales and why I went into sales because Growing up, I was kind of an introvert. I was a computer nerd in the '80s, and I went to college and I got this degree in computer engineering. Well, at the time it seemed like a good idea.

Great idea.

Yeah.

Right? Great idea. The PC was taking off and the world was changing in the manufacturing facilities. And after, after graduating and getting a really good job, I went to work every day, like join the workforce. I didn't like it. Like, I went to the same place, the same building with the same people, did the same thing every day. And I would rather go, I don't know, mow the lawn, bale hay, pick weeds out of the grass, anything, you know. So it was— it got me into sales, you know. I, I just, just took the Ford and I said, hey, we got to get into sales because I had met this man, Marty. I'll never forget Marty, man. He came— he worked for Hewlett-Packard. He came into our engineering shop once a month, once a quarter, did software updates and stuff. And he was like the technical sales guy. And I was, Marty, Marty, how do you— how do I get a job like yours? Like, you know, just start asking. And wouldn't you know, about a year later, Marty called me up. And he said, hey, John, um, you still serious about this? Because I know a guy who knows a guy. How about that, right? And I got into sales, not as a direct salesperson, but as somebody who could speak the tech language and bridge that gap from C-level executives to the technical people who were just locked behind a computer, you know, and it kind of launched this sales career of mine. And here I am. You know, I've spent the last 15 years now, uh, being part of the Heartland sales team, and it's just brought me to where I am today, you know, is, uh, having a lot of success on my own. And today, you know, I spend the majority of my time coaching, leading, hiring, you know, just building our brand, helping, helping my sales team that I work for, helping them close deals.

So you were looking for more variety, more excitement?

I was just looking for, yeah, more just not doing the same thing every day, you know. And that's the cool thing about sales that's exciting is that you don't know what today's gonna bring.

No, you don't.

Although I woke up this morning, I'm meeting with Brian at 11 o'clock, you know, on my calendar says so. What's that gonna be about? I don't know. Let's find out, right? It's just like when I'm going on an appointment with, uh, with one of my sales reps. Just, hey, what's this about? I don't know, let's go find out, you know. Let's go find out and explore. So there you go.

How long did it take before you became comfortable or you knew it was your thing? 30 years.

Yeah, 30 years. And, you know, I still have days where I'm figuring it out. Is, is this still my thing? Yeah, you know, but I think that's what helps drive me every day is that desire to— I can do better today, I can do better this time, you know, I want to learn more. Um, I, I believe that we're— I believe that we're still learning the whole time.

Well, that's it, because most people, it is that variety that they look for and why they get into sales.

That, you know, control over your income, And work-life balance, if your company allows it, allows it. Like, that's—

I don't see people find that that much, right?

Well, yeah. So, you know, I didn't learn that until later on in sales, how important it was to actually unplug. I know a lot of salespeople—

Especially if you have a family.

Well, yeah. How do you get away from your work and your family and figure out what you need to have without sacrificing each of those? So you got to figure out a way to balance it.

Yeah.

And that's a big challenge for people.

You know, given that you didn't have any education in sales, how did you learn it?

Just real-life experience and just always asking questions. And, you know, over the, over the years, I had some really bad sales managers, okay? And I had some really good sales leaders. I'm going to call them leaders because it was the managers that I probably learned the most out of about, about what I needed in my career was, man, I don't want to be like that, or holy smokes, I can't believe that person's talking to me this way. Is that all they care about? You know, and you're left feeling that way. And then I was working for a Fortune 50 company. Okay, well, I'll keep the names out of it.

Doesn't matter.

Back 20 years ago. And I had a director there that just helped. He was very empathetic. He always sought to understand. And he served to be a great mentor. His name's Bill. And Bill taught me so much about— because I knew how I responded to him, right? I responded favorably. It made— put a smile on my face. It made me feel good about it. So having good leaders is just as important as having bad leaders. You can't discredit the bad ones because there's a lot to learn there.

There is.

Having somebody that you can model yourself after, I thought, you know, I feel still today is really important.

And what were some of the lessons that you learned from that mentor that you still have today?

How important empathy is.

Yeah.

It's just, you know, it's a key, it's a key part to, to, to, I know, to my success today. And it's not just empathy as a sales leader. It's like when I'm sitting down with a prospect, figuring out where they're at, why are they at, why are they asking me these questions? What's behind, you know, what don't I know? And you can only do that if you take a real empathetic and genuine approach to it and just, just have a conversation, you know.

Um, and why do you think most younger salespeople aren't empathetic, or it takes a while to develop empathy?

That I think, you know, I think about my own story, right, my own life. And I, I think some of, some of it has to do with life situations. Okay. What, what are they struggling with? Have they struggled, truly struggled, where somebody just wasn't there helping them? Like they had to figure out the situation that they were in. And we're not just talking, well, I had a bad afternoon and, and this happened to me today. No, we're talking about maybe a life situation that they had to navigate through day in and day out. And it might not have anything to do with their work. It might be a personal story. And I think that's where today a lot of our— I don't know, I don't want to say younger people, but in fact they are younger in sales professionals and they're starting out. You know, the world's different today. They can have the answer just by their technology. Go to their smartphone, bam, there's the answer. It's this instant gratification more than it is We got to really figure this out, and I got to go and I got to talk to, you know, I got to go talk to 10 or 15 different people before I get the answer.

Yeah, that's an interesting point. I never thought about that.

You know, they just— I know, like, I'm sure with you, right? We didn't have this whole, this technology where I could have an answer immediately.

That's true.

I had to go seek it out. I had to go to the library. I had to read some books. I had to talk to people. all the people in my life before I could. So it took longer, right, to come to that conclusion as opposed to today. I mean, I see it in my own life today, right? I'm making decisions much quicker, much faster, and a lot of that is because the information is available to me. Yeah.

And another thing about it is I think to become empathetic, you got to reverse engineer it because What comes before empathy is curiosity.

Yeah.

And what comes before curiosity, you have to have some level of confidence.

And that could, you know, a lot of— not, let's say this, not every young person, they're still figuring out their life, more or less their professional career, what they're gonna do for the rest of their life. They're still figuring out who they are. And once you figure out who you are, then the confidence actually comes.

Right. You got to become comfortable with what you're selling.

Yeah.

You know what the person wants from what you're selling, how you're different, kind of the stuff they teach you in the enablement meetings.

Right.

But then you have to then become Confident, curious, and empathetic. That's a long road to haul.

It really is. And it's not one that's easily traveled, and it doesn't happen overnight. Right.

You just can't tell somebody, be empathetic. It's like saying, be taller.

Right, right, right. Hey, I'm wearing my tall shoes today because it's going to make me feel confident. Right.

Let me ask some empathetic questions.

Right. It's something that we don't really talk about. People, if you think about a lot of the sales training, and so at least most of the sales trainings that I've been through in my career, is we never talk about empathy.

No, it's all about us. What to say, how to handle objections.

How to say it. Yeah, it's not— how you deliver the message is just as important as what the message is. Yeah.

And what's kept you at one company for so long?

Well, you know, it's, it's in sales, right? That's— some folks don't like to talk about it. It's about the money. Oh, and that's what came, right? Come on, why did I get in sales, right? I wanted to make more money. Yes.

Oh, here it comes. Here goes the truth. See, it took me, folks, a few 15 minutes to get to it.

Well, why are people in sales? They want to make more money. Yeah, and it's—

have control over your income.

Have control over it. Get paid with what you're worth. But what's interesting is that's why I came to Heartland. Yeah, because I knew folks here and I watched them and I, and, and I became a believer. Like, wow, you, you hold it. If they did that, oh, I, I can, I can do that. Yeah, you know, but what's kept me here after 15 years is the people. It's the community, it's the culture, it's the opportunity.

That's hard to find.

The opportunity is what you make of it, right? You could choose, it's like sales. You could choose to make that extra stop at the end of the day. You could choose to, you know, make the extra phone calls, right? Choose to go the extra mile or just be content with enough. At Heartland, it's about your performance.

Tell me about the introversion, because clearly you don't come across as an introvert at all anymore.

No, it came with confidence.

Okay, and what gave you that confidence?

Success. Success, determination. Like, oh, you told me I can't do something? Oh, I'm gonna show you. Right? And you just put your head down and you just go do it.

And where'd the determination come from?

Just, you know, I'm pausing, I'm thinking, man, you're taking me back there, right? It's, it's, uh—

Well, not everybody has it, or everybody kind of can connect to it, because determination is Critical.

It really— well, it really is. I wanted a better life for myself than what was provided me as a youth, as a kid, right? You know, my parents, my family, you know, 95% of my family are all— we'll call them, well, we'll call them blue-collar workers. They punched a clock, okay? They worked their 40 to 50 hours a week, and then they went home and they spent their family time, and then they went back to the factory. A small percentage of my family went off that path.

So you saw the money as freedom and independence of worrying about bills and—

Worrying about the bills, worrying about your future. It's funny because along this early on in this journey, I also often would find myself when I had alone time thinking, man, what was life like before the Industrial Revolution? When life was so simple, money wasn't much of a currency. Everything you needed to survive was self-sustainable right outside your door.

Yep.

You had food.

You had food. What else did you need? You had the people around you that loved and supported you. I mean, life was full then. Okay? Then we introduced the Industrial Revolution and we introduced currency and money more so than what existed before. And it starts to become something, you know, then you add in technology and being aware of all this, and now all of a sudden money is the root of a lot of things.

Well, yeah, because it's the common means of value exchange.

Correct.

Correct. You bring up a great point there because we've really only been talking to— because before the Industrial Revolution, we didn't meet strangers. Right, right. We worked on the farm. We friends and family, church.

Right, that's right. That's right. Exactly.

And then all of a sudden you had company, which is you know one next level. But now everyone's a stranger or a lot of right. But we're meeting like this, right? First time we've never met.

Yep, yep.

And this is— my point here is that this is all new to our brains.

Oh, sure it is. Sure it is.

Because now we're meeting tens, hundreds of strangers a week.

Right, right.

But our customers may only be meeting 2 or 3 strangers a week.

That's right. That's that. And, and that's that salesperson that's coming in to introduce something new to them. Well, that's scary.

That's very— well, first, strangers are scary, right? Because we don't know, like, or trust them yet.

That's correct.

So if we don't have that yet, do we believe what they say, or do we take it with a grain of salt, or take it as a data point?

I think it's— I think it's the— it's all of the latter there, right? It's, it's how we view that person walking through our door, like, hmm, Who are they? What do they want? Right? Is it a salesperson or is it a customer? Hmm.

Right.

And the guards go up.

Of course.

Right?

Because somebody rings your doorbell and you look out the window with a little knob. If you recognize them, you know, if it's a friend or family, open the door. Hey, how you been? If it's a stranger or someone you don't want to talk to, let's say it's a stranger, you wonder, what do they want? Who are they?

Correct. Your whole demeanor is different, right?

There's nothing in their hands. They're not FedEx or UPS delivering something. They probably want my time or my money.

That's right, that's right. And, and that's the real craft, right, in sales. That's the craft right there to, to master immediately, is how do you turn that— you're appearing as a foe, you got to make them a friend right away.

Yes, you do.

There's a knack to that.

Right.

And I think that's what salespeople miss today. People rely on their message and their value and their product to justify their time instead of— you first got to get off of that stranger.

Correct. And they're thinking— and there's a myth there, right? The salesperson is thinking, oh, if they will just listen to me, I have all this great stuff.

Because we go door to door or phone call to phone call.

Right, that's right.

And we may have done the research and we almost feel like we know them and know their situation and their company and their problems, but they don't know us.

Correct. And there's a critical step there in the sales process, which is right in the beginning, which causes frustration and everything. And you know what? It's simple. A lot of this is— I practice this and I kind of, I'll say I teach this. It's as simple as doing this. You and I are smiling at each other.

It's a give.

Make people smile. Walk into a place and go say good morning.

It melts so many cold looks.

Correct.

Because when I did a drop-by, I would just do the smile and the— and try and a little joke or a little Even an egg or a little compliment or something to get them to loosen up a little.

Right, right. And every situation is different. So you're going to have, as you do that, you're going to have multiple ways, you know, based on the situation to get somebody to smile back at you.

Because it is kind of contagious.

Oh, without a doubt.

When you see someone smiling at you, you tend to smile back. And when you do smile, you feel good, right?

And when you feel good, what are you projecting?

Positivity, friendliness, openness, and confidence. Yeah, right. Because you won't smile if you're insecure.

Of course not.

You don't smile at the police.

It just takes over, you know, like You're all tight and you read your script and everyone's like, hi, I'm John, I'm with Heartland and I'm selling, uh, software. I'm selling credit card processing. Do you want to buy some? And you become this robot that then all of a sudden the guard goes back up with the person you dropped in on. You're— you became a foe again, right?

Because now you're just a commodity commercial.

That's right.

That's right.

And people are saying Do I need this, want this, care about this? No.

No, I can get it from the— I can get it from— listen, I know somebody that I can get it from that I'm familiar with.

Right. I can get it from Stripe, whatever it is. People just— right, I don't need a salesperson for that.

Well, again, that you could tie that back to technology and go, well, I can just get all this online. I don't need you.

Right.

You know, there's a struggle there, if you will, a battle. It's a challenge. It's a challenge.

And what do you see in people who come to you asking for help? Other reps say, you know, John, I'm struggling here. I'm not feeling this is my bag. I'm not sure I'm made out for sales. Is that what you hear, or is it—

I, I, I'll hear that sometimes from— it's not that I'm not made out for sales. It's, it's they'll come to me and they'll say something along the lines of, you know, I just didn't have any success today. Okay, well, tell me more. Well, I just don't feel like I accomplished anything today. Okay, I have to figure out a way to get more out of that, right? So now it's, now it's, tell me about the last conversation you had. Who was it with? What did you say? What did they say? So when I'm seeking to understand, what I'm finding is that with the sales reps, they miss that critical part of breaking down their wall of— they just want to get to the selling part. They just want to get to the selling part. Because that's what they're good at. Hey, I want to schedule an appointment with you. Will you schedule an appointment with me? I got this great stuff here and I need for you to meet with me so I can— well, hold up. I'm not going to sell you. I'm going to learn about your business. So then once I know about your business, I can apply our stuff to it because that's solution selling, which, which we all are evolving into. Okay. But they miss that critical part, that critical part of breaking down that barrier right away in the beginning.

Right.

And then you walk right into the commodity trap.

And that, that's all you have left.

That's all you have.

Because—

I'm not saying— tell me how it's—

How much should your product cost?

How much is it?

Tell me how much your product costs.

That's too expensive. And then you fall into the pricing trap and you're trying to fix the pricing objection.

Correct. And it's very difficult for anybody, even a seasoned salesperson. Because it's not about price.

That's right. It's about, I don't care. I don't see any reason.

That's exactly it. And that's why, that's why our prospects always go to price. Oh, I'm going to get them on the price game.

It's the easy question, right?

I can get rid of them that way.

You see a Lamborghini drive by the road, what do you think? First thing, I wonder how much that is.

Yeah, right.

Am I interested? No.

Correct.

It's a beautiful car. I can't afford it, but I'd like to know how much it costs.

Because, because you're curious. So let's see, you're curious. Yeah, good information to have. Maybe I'll need it down the road. Maybe I'll be able to afford it down the road.

Yeah, you know, and have you found a way to get them to see the real problem? Because they've heard it before, you know they've heard it.

Well, they have heard it before only if it's a sales rep that is open to hearing what they might have done wrong or what they might have missed. And that's really hard, okay? Self-awareness is really difficult for people because it doesn't come natural.

Well, people think it's about intelligence and it's not about intelligence.

Correct, correct. Oh, I should have been smarter than that, right? Oh.

Because when you tell it, they're gonna say, oh, I know that, but I don't know how to do that.

Right, it's just applying— it's applying different aspects of it. That's it.

It's like building it in and maybe even them empathizing, doing it to them, right? So they can see. Because, yeah, you know, ask them, you know, what are you in market for? You looking for a TV, car, house, vacation? What are you looking for?

Correct. Asking questions. Are you seeking to understand what they're after? You know, are you just getting to the selling part? Because that's their job. They're a salesperson.

Well, that's it. And they—

people think that as long as they're talking, it's a conversation.

As long as they're talking.

They're talking.

Yes, there's the myth, right? But I did all the talking.

Right.

They know everything now.

How can they not go with us? Right. I can't believe they didn't buy from me.

Really? Told them everything. The best demo I ever gave.

Sure, sure. Right. One of the things that we can, that we, I find myself doing a lot, right, as a sales leader is getting the sales rep to understand why. So, hey, right, hey boss, I just closed the deal. And it's never, it can't be about, oh great, how much, how much is it for? How much? No, no, no. It's why did they buy from you?

Oh, they love me.

Okay, great. Right. And you get that answer. Well, it was me. They bought from me. Right. Okay.

But why?

Well, hold on. Let me ask you, let me ask you differently. What problem did you solve for them? And when you can start to get that sales rep to understand that that's more important than anything else, now they're starting to get on the path of, okay, if I can figure this out every time, And they can start to connect the dots, they'll have greater success as opposed to just selling whatever product it is we're selling because you're spectacular.

Well, that's it.

Because a lot of people use the doctor-patient analogy, and that's, that's, that's like inbound though. We're more like the, the doctors making unannounced and unrequested house calls.

Right.

So you can't go in asking, you know, how's your diet? You gotta ease into it.

That's right, that's right. Figure out a little bit, learn a little bit about them, right?

Otherwise they'll say, no, I'm fine, everything's great. Well, they have 5 pills on their table and they're, you know, hitting their chest a couple times and out of breath and coughing, right?

They're feeling horrible about everything, you know.

Um, how long has she had that cough?

Yeah.

Does it bug you at all?

Sure. How's it make you feel?

Right?

If you can get the sales rep to realize how they're making other people feel about the questions that they're asking, boy, there's some success that can really come from that. You know, it comes down to that self-awareness again.

Now, the upside that introverts have is they tend to focus on questions versus statements. Because questions are easy.

Right, right. I've got all, I've got all my questions written down. I just have to follow the questions, right?

And was that your go-to until you got the confidence?

Early on it was, absolutely. I needed a guideline. Yeah, I needed a, I needed something to make sure that I was asking the right questions. And in, as a, as a less experienced salesperson, I needed to, I needed, I was never afraid to get out my pad, right, where I had some questions written down and ask them, ask questions.

Yeah.

As a guideline. And it wasn't until you got the confidence through the experience and you had that success where now I can just show up without my piece of paper, right, and just They're a part of your— live in the situation. Yeah, you know.

And was there a particular skill or technique that took your game to the next level where you really— an epiphany happened, a light bulb went off, and you— your game really accelerated?

It was, and I don't— I don't know where I learned this, okay? But if, if what I figured out was, I'm doing it right now. I paused and you were like, what?

What's he gonna say?

Yes.

Here it comes.

That ability to command the room, all based on how you're speaking, your delivery, your pauses. And when I figured that piece out for myself, that somebody had— I forgot where I learned this, but I remember learning it. And I was like, huh. Is that gonna work? I'm gonna try it, right? I'm in a boardroom with, with my director and, you know, 4 or 5 people from the people that we were selling to. And I did it. And when I paused, everybody leaned in, waiting to hear what John was gonna say next. And I walked out of that meeting and couldn't wait to get back into my car so I could go, holy smokes, it works! Like, wow, that was powerful. But you, you just had to— you had to do it and you had to figure it out.

Well, then you become curious about what other skills you can build on top of it, because it brings up the perfect point, because sales is a performance profession. It's how well you do it, not just if you do it and how you do it, but how well you do it.

Without a doubt, have the self-awareness to know that how exactly are others perceiving you. Are they perceiving you as a salesman or as, oh, that guy knows everything, right? Oh, he, he never listens to me. You, you— that you're on display all of the time, right?

And I got to assume that your clients want to talk with you, not that they have to talk.

That's correct, because like we're selling something today every business already has. Every, every business accepts credit cards as a form of—

They have a way of doing it.

Yeah, every business has employees in which they need to pay. All right, well, that's Heartland's business. Every business has software already that they're using to run their operations. Well, that's Heartland's business. They don't need to talk to us. They don't need it. Yeah, they don't need it, you know.

Hey, John, this has been a great conversation.

Where can people go to connect and follow you?

Uh, on LinkedIn, you know, follow, connect with me and follow me on LinkedIn. Um, you know, I never believe that we can ever have enough connections. I mean, after all, that's what brought you and I together today, right? It's just Being connected and trying to learn from one another as we continue to move forward. So.

This is one of the interviews that you really need to watch the video as well. And you can find that by going to YouTube and subscribing to Brian Burns Sales on YouTube. Just search for that. It'll be coming right up at the top. Because what you will see visually is somebody who's very effective at engaging somebody, breaking the ice. Connecting with another stranger so that they can have a great business conversation. Now, this is a skill. It's a lot more than a couple of tips and tricks, and it takes structure, and it takes an understanding and empathy from or for the other person. So that's kind of what I teach in Start the Conversation, Get the Meeting. It is a game changer because think about your week. Today, an SDR, sales development rep, is considered an A-player if they get one meeting a week. Pretty pathetic, if you ask me. And that's basically a $2,000 expense for the company. Fully loaded SDR is about $100K. Not on target earnings, but they've got to pay for the office, the benefits, the training, all the horseshit. So $2K for a meeting, and the meeting— here's the secret— isn't really qualified. They're getting the scraps. They're getting the easiest possible things, not the ones you really want. What I'm talking about is getting into your key accounts, getting conversations started. Now, will they buy? Well, that's, that's the other course, Closing the Complex Sale. But you got to get a conversation first. And It's all about them. It's not about your pitch. It's not about your product. It's not even about you. It's about them. And when you get them talking, that is when the magic happens. So go to b2brevenue.com right now. Sign up today. There's 2 videos I want you to watch before you sign up. One is an overview of the learning management system, how it works. And the second is Which Course Is Right for Me? It answers 99.9% of all the questions that I've ever gotten over the years. Watch it as many times as you like. And if you still have questions, you can email. There's a little email chat box there. Or you can schedule a call with one of my members of the team, and they'll sit down and answer any of your questions, describe it in more detail. But please be ready, meaning that after that call, you either sign up or you don't. Don't be telling us, oh, I'll sign up next year or next month. Don't care. Make sure you're ready to sign up now. There's only so many of them, and I don't want any tire kickers or, you know, lonely reps who just want to talk to somebody or complain about their manager. That's what most people do. I want people who want to get better, not explain why they're not good. Doesn't matter. Learn how to sell. Learn how to start conversation, get meetings, and close those deals. That's where the fun is. B2BRevenue.com. We'll see you next time.