THE #1 THING THAT THIS SALES LEADER IS LOOKING FOR IN A REP

I talk a lot about the B-player trap in sales, and in science it's called the Dunning-Kruger effect. And it's so prevalent in sales for a lot of reasons. One, confirmation bias. We want to hear and see the things that make sense to us that we can confirm we already know. But this, this creates a tremendous trap in sales where It happens typically at year 2, 3, or 4 in your sales career, typically right after you've had a great year. And you attribute a little bit too much of it to yourself and not enough to the situation, the timing, the product, the territory. And yes, it's all of those things. And then what you tend to think is, okay, I've hit it. I now know what great selling is. And I'm A great seller. But then all of a sudden you start to have okay years, maybe even a bad year. And instead of attributing it to your experience and skillset, you attribute it to anything but that. And that is the B-player trap. And it's almost impossible to get out of unless you really take a hard look at yourself. It happened to me. I've seen it happen to a lot of reps. Some never get out of it. The faster you can get out of it, the better, and the more conscious you can be of it, the better. Now, I know everyone's getting a little frustrated with polls on LinkedIn, and I've been guilty of doing them, but I, I have been taking a different approach. I've been trying to use it for research, for the elements of what great selling Is and why people are not hitting it. And the number one reason people are not hitting it is they already think they have hit it. Uh, 35% of salespeople think they're the best in the world. Uh, that can't be statistically correct. Uh, 80% think that they're working smarter than anyone else. 80% think they're working harder. Than everybody else. So go to my company pages or the podcast pages on LinkedIn, search Brutal True sales leadership, sales questions, B2B revenue leadership, and you'll see those posts as well as on my personal profile.

And I do them in a certain sequence to essentially trap people.

So I'm asking very specific questions, like I did one just the other day on Trusted advisor, which I think is the, the quintessential example of the B-player trap.

Why? Because I did a poll.

How long does it take for you to trust a coworker?

Now, this is somebody who's on your side, who works with you. And the, the majority said at least a month.

Okay.

Now imagine what a customer needs to hear to consider a salesperson trusted.

Where at first, we've got a terrible reputation, and that's more due to the media than it is salespeople. Most of the salespeople I interact with are great, down-to-earth, helpful, and desire to be trusted advisors. But to be a trusted advisor, you need 2 things. You need trust. And you need your advice to be valued independent of what you're selling. Are you going to get that on the first meeting? One rep even said, oh, you'll get it before the first meeting based off of the company. Well, no, that means they trust the brand and the company. Doesn't mean they're going to trust you. This is a great example of the B-player trap because if you think you are first trusted And they value your advice independent of what you're selling, you're delusional. I'm sure you'll get it with an existing customer that you've known for quite a while and that you've over-delivered and under-promised. But to a stranger that you're contacting for the first time, they don't know you. If they don't know you, how can they like or trust you? They can't. It is delusional to think that they could or that the trust is transferable from other coworkers or brand to you? It kind of is, but not really. And a lot of people said it would be over a year to trust somebody. Now, trust, if you define it as you believe the other person, you sincerely believe they have your best interest in mind, not their own, and what they say, they believe. That's a reasonable definition of trust.

So, in today's interview, we're going to cover a different topic and I'll summarize it at the end. But check out those polls if you're interested because I'm really doing a lot of work to kick off the next year fast off of the things that I've learned this year in my constant research in sales.

Let's get into the interview.

I'll sum it up at the end.

Hey Tyler, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Yeah, absolutely. So first and foremost, uh, big fan, longtime listener, first-time caller kind of thing. So appreciate you having me on. Uh, yeah, my background, I've been going on, man, age myself here, but going on about 2 decades now in sales. Um, background started like many people, uh, just kind of luckily fell into it. Uh, came out to live in Arizona and I came out here to do graduate work for a master's program. And needed some money while I was waiting for school to start. And I got an opportunity to do mortgages at the time. So got into that, got my first commission check. And I remember calling my mom saying, yeah, I don't think I need to go to school.

Yeah.

And luckily I have parents that are very supportive. So I spent about a decade in mortgages. That was most of it. Had my own brokerage, even worked for some Fortune 100 companies, did— so it was all B2C type stuff. And then moved over into, I guess, SaaS kind of martech after that. Uh, very risky, very scary move, big hit to income, totally different environment, like everything. Uh, but I just wanted to see what that looked like. And so, uh, went and I worked for a company called Zocdoc, phenomenal organization, um, built up a territory there, then went to work for a company called Outbound Engine. And now I'm with a company called Lead Forensics. So really from B2C to B2B2C, and now I'm full-fledged B2B. So I've kind of ran the gamut in terms of who you sell to, but that's basically my long history, very, very short.

And what was it like getting into B2B from B2C, which, I mean, because the sale is so different, a lot of people can't adjust to that.

I was one of them. I could not adjust to it. It was— I tell my, you know, reps that work for me, I tell them my story a lot because when I moved from B2C, and I came from— was very successful in B2C, very successful, a lot of, you know, happy clients, just President's Club, like big paychecks, all that. My first 90 days in B2B, my manager at the time Pulled me aside after hours and was like, look, they want me to fire you. I mean, that was the conversation I was having. Uh, you're, you know, you're not coaching. Yeah, yeah, like, you're not ramping up the way they want you to, blah blah. But, but the good coaching was he's like, I do believe in you. He's like, so he's like, we're gonna go another 30 days. Here's, you know, we, we set out a plan, this and that, and I just buckled down. Um, and it started coming together. But like, it was rough. Like, it was a very different, you know, process. There was more of a process. In B2C, there is no process. In B2B, there's absolutely a process. So it's not that I was fighting it, it's just learning it was a big adjustment for me. And that was on small transactional B2B. You know, here I am, you know, many moons later doing larger transactions even longer. Um, but yeah, I, you know, people making that move, like, it's, it's— you're gonna fall off the bike. You will.

Well, because we really don't see any role models in B2B sales, you know, because it's, it's boring.

You can't make a movie out of a B2B sale, right?

It's not dramatic enough.

Oh yeah, yeah, no, um, yeah, if Will Smith were to play that character, right? No one would watch it. It wouldn't be a Pursuit of Happiness. It'd be, uh, Pursuit of a Nap. Yeah, yeah, watch a 6-month sales cycle.

And what were you doing wrong? Were you trying to move too fast? Were you giving up too soon?

I think I was— 2 things. That's a good question. 2 things. I think I was still very transactional. So, so while I believe in relationship 100%, I think I was relying too much on relationship and then just good old-fashioned asking for the business. And then I think the number 2 thing, which I think a lot of people struggle with just in general, one of my core beliefs is I was overestimating my ability, underestimating the work it was going to take. So I think I just, my ego of past success was the more I wanted it, the more I really wanted it, The more desperate I was on calls, the less true to my own nature I had become. So yeah, I think, you know, that was probably the bigger component. I was being too transactional and then just, you know, after 30, 60 days not having success because transactional, 30, 60 days, the writing's on the wall, you know, like 30, 60 days in.

The market tells you.

Yeah, you got a pretty good idea, but in B2B, it's kind of hard to know. 30, 60 days in because you're building that pipeline, building up the foundation. It is— it definitely is different there.

And was it that, uh, they didn't either give you training or explain it, or did you feel that your success in one market was completely transferable to another market?

Um, no, I think the training was there. Yeah, I think it, it was just my own expectations. Like I said, I, I just— it was 100%. I expected to make a move. I expected to see it right away. Um, it was— and people, again, I think now that journey is a lot different. I think nowadays people come in and they do the SDR and then they build their way up, this, that, and the other. So I think the expectation is a lot more realistic. Back then, when I say back then, this was 2014, you know, so like go back way back in the day. I think, you know, people were coming out of like the auto industry, the insurance industry, the mortgage industry, these B2C industries. That's where they're pulling their talent for B2B. And back then it was like, I remember working with guys that were in insurance and collection and all that, and they were just coming in so hungry and their expectations were just what they would make that month 1, what they would make that month 2, completely misaligned with the fact that these customers, like, they were 2 months away from even bringing this up in a board meeting.

And something that I kind of learned this year was that reps are in their own way.

Yes.

And because I do a lot of surveys on LinkedIn and stuff, and it's always, are you on time? Like 95% always say they're on time. That's It's like, I deal with enough reps to know it's not 95% of people. Are you the best salesperson you know? 35% said they were the best salesperson they know.

That's insane. Yeah, that's, that's interesting.

But, but the, the danger here— the good part is you got confidence. Clearly you had that when you made that transition. Yeah, but that got in your way.

That did not help you.

Yeah, it's— well, and any good teacher will tell you, you have to have that healthy dose of humility within there, right? And that's even grit. Like if you watch the films about grit, grit isn't like, oh, I'll just keep banging it out until I get it. It's like, no, no. It's understanding that I can improve and that if I work hard and learn from my lessons, I can get better. And so yeah, you have to have the, what I would call almost more optimism than confidence. Like optimism that I will get there.

Yes.

Right? Like optimism that I will get the goal that I'm seeking, that I will will get the outcome, but the humility to, you know, want to strive to get better along the way. That's very interesting that 35% of people would say like, yeah, I'm the best salesperson I know. I would argue that, you know, that old adage of the sum of the 5 people you hang out with, you need to change the people you're hanging out with.

Well, if you're the best and you're making $150,000, you get to find another 5 people.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, time to reassess your network.

Yeah.

And it is that humility because before that leader came to you, you probably thought it had to be the product, had to be the territory.

Yeah, no, you know, again, like, and I do think that's a difference between what will eventually be a top salesperson and your average, right? Is that, you know, outward, like, uh, you know, locus of control, right, versus inward where I never felt that. I never felt— and I remember this was a territory-based role at the time. Guys complaining about their territory, saying this and that. But meanwhile, I look around and I would see somebody hitting the numbers. And as long as there's one person doing it, then I should be able to do it, right? The classic Roger Bannister, right? Nobody ran a 4-minute mile. He ran the 4-minute mile. Well, so I've actually never succumbed to the— and I know that's a popular mindset around a lot of salespeople of like, Oh well, the product, the territory, the you know all of these reasons, and it's you know I've worked for companies with not the best comp plans, territory based, and I've made really good money. Like, and I mean if and and I just believe again back to that humility, back to that ownership of of take what you can learn there, be the best you can optimize that, and then go. And and again you see that you know I know it's popular people like to move. jobs. So one lesson I wish I would have done differently is probably change jobs a little bit more frequently early on. But I think it's a healthy balance of optimizing where you currently are and not overstaying your welcome. And so I— but I don't— I've never thought product, territory, anything like that. I thought it's me, it's got to be me. What, what other answer is there? It's only me and the customer on the phone. So what other variable is there?

Right.

And if you have you know, a reasonable-sized territory and other people are doing it, that's possible.

That's— yeah, yeah. Even if it's hard, right? Even if it's hard, it's still possible. And, you know, and you build that character, like, by overcoming that obstacle. That'll give you character that you take with you the rest of your sales career.

And what was the motivation to get into leadership? Because I take it you're a people manager today?

I am now. Yeah. The easiest way to put it is I didn't get the joy of my own sales anymore. I remember it was like, this is going to be— it's a bit arrogant when I tell people this, I have to say it, but it's a bit like the sale itself for me wasn't that it was easy, but it wasn't the thrill, wasn't the challenge it once was. Right. But I remember people around me when they would close deals, they'd come in, they were new. talk a little bit. I'd kind of mentor them, give them some advice, and they'd get that deal. And that rush I got reminded me of the rushes I used to get when I closed sales. And so that's kind of what led me into leadership was like, I, look, the money is way better as a salesperson. Anybody that tells you differently is lying. Like the money was better, but the fulfillment and the purpose, I just, it's so much more rewarding helping other people accomplish their goals. You know, at a certain point, right, which inevitably gets me my goals, right? The old Zig Ziglar, right? But yeah, so it was a symbiotic relationship there.

And what have you learned along the way about what makes a great salesperson? Because when you're a leader, you get a very different vantage point. As you think at first, everyone should be like me.

Yes. Let's all thank God that they're not all like me for a second.

Dangerous.

I would say definitely. Um, yeah, I mean, I think the top people, you know, anybody that kind of knows me, knows my coaching at all, they know biggest thing for me is just charm and charisma, right? I think number one, it's just that old reminder, it's not the sales business, it's the people business. So, so that to me is like, how do people respond to you in general? If people leave your interaction thinking like, yeah, you know, like I enjoyed that person. Like that right there is the best foundation. And I think that can be challenging for people to learn later in their life. Not saying they can't. I mean, all skill sets can be learned. That's a hard one if you didn't kind of grow up. I remember just growing up in that environment where, you know, between my family, you go into a grocery store, you say hello to people, you, you know, have conversations, you ask about their day. People don't have that kind of interaction as much today as they did 15, 20 years ago. And I think that's tough. So I think charm, charisma, that's my number one. I mean, confidence, optimism, like I talked about. And then I think an underplayed one is IQ. I think when I say IQ, I don't mean like, oh, how far did you go in school, this and that. I just mean your ability to solve problems, to take an idea, understand it, like think about it, and then explain complex ideas to people. Because in B2B world, you have to talk about, especially in B2B, you have to speak at like a sophisticated level. You sometimes have to introduce concepts to people that they're not familiar with. And can you do that and explain it like I'm 5, 10-second, oh, I got it kind of thing. And that, so like those things to me, the charm, Optimism. And I just think that certain level of intelligence has to be there. And if it's not, you know, again, intelligence is the easiest one because you can study, learn, right? Like, if, you know, I couldn't explain to somebody how a black hole works, but like a physicist could explain that in 5 seconds in a way both you or I, you know, you're probably a little sharper than I am even, like, could understand.

It's a facade.

And in the sales world, It's the same thing. You have to be able to explain your product like that. Otherwise, you're in danger of over-talking, over-explaining, over-selling, which we all know is one of the worst things you can do.

Yeah, because we don't really talk about that much.

Yeah.

Because when you go for training and enablement, they put the marketing person up there with all the buzzwords and how the company views the product and the problem, not how the customer views it.

Yeah, and, and, and you're absolutely right, and you're going to talk to customers and you have to be able to adopt your, your, adapt your pitch and the words and the vocabulary used to the market constantly. So, uh, that's absolutely great.

Yeah, because one of my successes was going the 3rd round of salespeople, and it took me forever to understand what the product did.

Yeah.

You know, they had this, you know, Russian CEO who went to MIT, had 75 slides, and I go, 3 rounds of salespeople and it's still a hot company?

But what's up? It's like when I've done— I've done a bit of consulting and I remember like you'd be with some founders on writing their structures and they're trying to explain their value proposition and there's nothing harder to understand than a founder trying to tell you what their what problem their product solves. Right. Yeah.

And, you know, it's like with like Rivian, oh, we're in the transportation. Well, yeah, your truck.

Yeah.

We're in climate change, your electric truck. It's like, okay, that's great to get the stock price up. But I don't think anyone's gonna buy it for that.

Yeah, it's on a cold call. That's a hard thing to— yeah.

Yeah.

Yes.

You're like, it's a truck, right?

Yeah. But if you're able to do that, you get it out of the commodity category because the trap when you try and explain something is trying to explain it like something else.

Yeah.

But if you do that, they go, I got that. Probably your space, right? I got something like that, but not this.

Yes, exactly. And that's where— I mean, well, again, it's still like in when the correct messaging, like you said, you, you You expand your audience, you move it beyond the logical to the emotional even. So yeah, that wording, again, how quickly can you do it? It reminds me of the famous Simon Sinek of, you know, 10,000 songs in your pocket, right? The why with the iPod and all that. Yeah, I mean, absolutely correct. And that's the job of the salesperson is to nail that on every single call. And that's a hard thing. It is a really hard thing to do. deal, especially call after call when your target is moving because your audience is changing, their needs are, you know, changing. Everybody's unique. Again, right, you're in the people business, not the sales business. So marketing's job, here's a message that'll get people thinking, but sales is to then translate that on a call to you, Brian, my prospect, your day to day.

Right, because I'm sure you guys do a lot of Cold outbound, which is very different than warm inbound.

Oh yeah, yeah. Especially when, you know, we talk about some of the changes too, like through my career is, I, you know, with mortgages, right? When I sold mortgages, people know what a mortgage is. They're, you know, even if you call, even on a cold call, if I say, hey, you know, what's your current interest rate? What if I could lower your rate? It's very easy.

Yes.

One of the things that smacked me in the face You're calling somebody who's not expecting your call, right? Telling them about a problem they didn't even know about. No, they'd be like, fine, I haven't even thought about that. Then you're telling them a solution to the problem they didn't know about from a company they've never heard of. Like it is just, it's one of, it's fun. Like that was the thing that really revived my love of sales as well was like That's such a challenge to just call somebody out of the blue and then accomplish that in a 3-minute window. You know what I mean? To where, because you basically have just a minute or 2 to where they're like, all right, well, let me ask you this. And now they're engaging in conversation. And that was a big challenge. And when you're able to do that on a cold outreach, take somebody from— we have, my CEO always talks about, I love it. You're talking to people who, you know, have one eye. And you're trying to explain to them what it's like to have 2 eyes. And they just like, what?

What?

I don't understand the difference. Like, right. And so I can see such a challenge.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's like, I can see now.

Yeah. Yeah.

But depth perception, I don't get it.

And that, that is a talent. That is a very advanced sales talent.

It is. Uh, yeah, it's, it's one that takes, I think, a long time, you know, to absolutely master. And you really do have to— that's where resilience comes in because on that cold call, man, that's brutal. But, you know, I see guys, it's funny, I see guys now that have been doing it for years, they jump on a call and they're so proficient at it. It's like watching, you know, just an artist at work. It's like, that is, I mean, that's impressive. Those people that can truly do it. And if you can't do it just yet, you'll get better. You absolutely will.

It kind of requires empathy because you kind of have to understand what it's like to look through the world with one eye.

Yeah, yeah. Which—

because if you've had two eyes your whole life, you don't know what it's like.

Yeah, and that's— and that is truly hard for some people to step back and just say, well, okay, wait a minute, what would that feel like? What would that look like? What does that— yeah, what's that person going through?

Yeah.

Because, you know, the charm and the personality may get you in the door and they may enjoy talking to you.

Yes.

But until you— but you got to keep bringing something.

Well, and that's where you're— I think where you're saying there's like getting out of your own way comes in is where a lot of salespeople, right, they, they get in there. So it's the pitch, it's the pitch, it's the pitch, it's the value statements, this and that. And especially in today's Today's environment, I was talking to somebody about this the other day, that economy is doing better. People are, especially in my space with martech and this and that, people are investing. So you just got to get out of your own way. Talk to them real quick, find out what their problem is, see if there's that mutual fit there. You're going to educate them on a few things. They're going to educate you on a few things. And if it seems like a good fit, then just go with it. And people are pretty willing To take a risk a lot of times, right, in the martech. I think it's different if they're doing a whole wholesale change, like a CRM or, you know, payroll system, that, that's going to be different. But a lot of times it's like, look, just keep it basic, get out of your way. If once you see the value or show the customer the value and they say, yeah, I like it, just keep the ball moving forward. And a lot of times they're like, okay, well, we haven't talked about this yet. You don't need to. The customer doesn't care about the cup holders. They want to know the gas mileage. So focus on that.

And when you're interviewing reps, what advanced skill have you looked for? Or have you been— because I'm sure you've made a bad hire. We all have, right?

Oh yeah.

It's super expensive, heartbreaking for everybody. And let's say, let's face it, we hired them. It's our fault.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, 100% of the time. Yes, 100%. I, I still— I, I mean, like, that's probably one of the toughest things is like when we hire somebody, you know, like I go through and we make that call and we bring them on and you, you start getting the sense and they get a sense too. I mean, right? When you hire the right people, they also start noticing it too. Like, maybe this isn't the best. And like, that's just one of the toughest things. But the advanced skill I think, you know, for me more than anything, when I'm, when I'm speaking to somebody new is I do look for where they want to go with their career. So it may not be because there's normal sales skills, right? And I do a role play with people. I don't know how many people out there doing that, but do a role play. If you're hiring for a sales job, I don't care what the role play is, do some form where you can feel it. And then besides that, like, I want somebody that's geared towards growth because if they're just, you know, and there's— I've got really good friends that are just, hey, I'm in it, I want to make my money, I like where I am, I don't want to rock this boat, I'm just looking for the next great comp plan.

And those—

that's great. I mean, I love that for those guys.

But what does growth mean to you?

So growth means to me is that like they're actively investing in their own personal development. Like actively, like you better be able to tell me what book you're reading. You better, better be able to tell me what you're learning from that book. Right. Number 2 is you better have some sense of like where, if you are an SDR now, right. Are you going to leadership? Are you going towards like, to me, it's, you have to have a plan of where you want your future to go. It doesn't have to be a detailed plan. I mean, if you're an SDR, it's probably not that detailed. If I'm hiring into leadership, Yeah, it's probably gonna be very detailed, you know, but that to me is what that— like, I categorically don't wanna hire anybody that is only here to work the job they're in right now.

Right.

Because that's too big of a risk. You talk about cost, and, and that's why I thought of that, thought of it answering it that way is because the most expensive is when I get somebody top rep and a year later, somebody out there has a better comp plan than me. Somebody's gonna offer them better base than me. Doesn't matter how well I take care of my employees. Somebody out there just is. That's just how the market is. And God love them for going to, you know, make more money. I have no hard feelings, but I want them to stay here. So—

Right, because if there isn't the growth, they're almost already in the B-player trap where they're like, oh, you know, 80% to 105% of quota, I'm happy, long Christmas vacation.

Yeah, no, you know, I'm gonna— I'm making this much commission, I'm gonna take this time off, I'm gonna, you know Like, okay.

But that's kind of marketing. That's not sales, right? Because sales— I think growth is the new money motivator, right? Because, you know, if you're that good, someone's always going to pay you.

Yes, I agree 100%. That's why I say, like, if you're just here for that commission check and, you know, not to say that you don't— I don't take care of my employees, but I just know that eventually you're going to get the grass is greener. But if you're here, I will get you promoted up. I will get you to the next level. Like, that's one of my prides. And, and I want you here because it's so much cheaper to keep somebody than hire somebody new. So I, I want you to have those long-term, you know, aspirations just like I'm gonna have.

Right. Because certainly in sales, if you don't have that growth, what, what ends up happening? You're not staying still. Yeah, you tend to slip backwards.

As I say, you'll burn out and then you, and then you get back to what you were saying earlier about like, oh, the product, oh, the territory, right? And that's when that negative mindset starts creeping in, vicious cycle.

Because I was top guy last year. It can't be me.

Yeah, it couldn't be. No way. I mean, I haven't read anything. I haven't kept up. I haven't gone to seminars. I haven't done anything, but you know, I haven't changed.

And like you mentioned, locus of control, that has kind of come very consistent when I talk to sales leaders. And I look for that all the time because if that isn't there, you got a victim and the victim will never get what the cause is.

No. Uh, and then, well, and they'll never— if they, if they can't admit the problem, right? It's like the old addiction model, right? If you can't even admit what the problem is, you're never going to address it.

Yeah.

Cool. And what skill do you wish you had more of? If there was a supplement that that you could get and take every day that would get you to where you'd like to be? Some characteristic or skill?

Um, I, you know, honestly, one of the things that I— so 2 things I, I absolutely struggle with, right? So one of the things that I, I truly, truly struggle with is some of the supervisor aspects. And it sounds weird, like—

No, it doesn't.

It sounds right. I coach people. But like some of those just supervisor, I really do need to get better at. I see the data, but like, I don't know. I think that's, that, that's something that I could definitely improve on is how, how I'm communicating to my reps on those day-to-day kind of job duties. Um, I definitely struggle, struggle with that because I look too big picture, number one.

Well, the, the thing that bugged me about certainly going into sales leadership was It's hard to go back.

Yes.

Both because, um, people don't want to hire a manager to go back to being a rep because they're like, well, why didn't he want to be—

Yeah, why are you stepping backwards?

Yeah.

But then you have the trap of there's only so many management jobs.

Yeah.

So you either go up or you go out, and then it's like going up takes away a lot of that coaching, mentoring fun. And turns into more internal battles of quotas and comp plans and admin. And, you know, the CEO thinks it's this and it's really that, and it's got to convince them.

Yeah.

And it's more looking at spreadsheets and what does this number mean and how do we make this graph do this instead of this? Like, yeah.

And, you know, we need 15 more enablement meetings and no, we really don't. We're okay.

We could do with less.

I think we could do with an email. On a Wednesday at 10:00 AM.

That's awesome. Yeah. I mean, and I just, and I think the other, you know, is one thing in my life right now is I'm finding a hard time. So I actually just got a new kind of mentor coach of my own. So what I'm trying to work on is where is my next skillset? So I've, my sales stuff, I've read all these books, I've done a lot of stuff, leadership, same thing, but I always want to stay at the forefront of kind of what what's coming out, this, that, and the other. So I think, you know, to your question, I've actually haven't identified that yet. So I just brought on a new coach for myself, um, that I'm working with right now to start identifying my next areas of opportunities and what skill sets I should be building on. Because, you know, just like everybody is, I do my self-assessments and I do pretty good, right?

I'm the best I know.

Yeah. So, uh, no, so I actually have— I always have a coach. I always have somebody that I work with that kind of gives me that insight. So that's, that's currently a work in progress, uh, to be blunt about it. Yeah.

Cool.

Hey, I really appreciate your time today. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

Uh, yeah, 100% on LinkedIn. I am working with somebody right now on starting more a kind of blog kind of content thing. We haven't launched just yet, um, but stay tuned on that. So if you want to go on LinkedIn, start following me, uh, message me, One thing I will say, if you message me any sales advice, whatever, I will always get back to you. And then early next year, hoping to release, start releasing some content. And Brian, really appreciate you having me on.

So on the intro, I was talking about the B-player trap, and the way to stay out of it is to have that growth mindset, that constant desire, curiosity to learn more, To take feedback, to have a performance mindset. Sales is a performance. I don't mean dog and pony type performance. I just mean it's how well you present, how well you negotiate, how well you build interest, how well you develop your questions and ask them. Not just that you do them. That mindset shift will help you stay out of that trap. Because if you look at each performance, each call, each email, each meeting, each presentation, each demo, and ask yourself, how could I have done that better? What was it? Was it an A, a B, a C, like just like in high school? Or was it a 10, a 9, an 8? That has been something very consistent. Among the very best salespeople. Because if you don't do that and you have the fixed mindset of, oh, I did that, which is the most common response I get when I talk to salespeople. And I always ask for examples because yes, they did something, but there's a nuance there. Yeah, you did it and you did this and you did this. And The point is not to be right or wrong. The point is to become good, great, the best you can be. That's the difference. If you have kind of the school mindset of, oh, I'm right or I'm wrong, you're not going to get out of your comfort zone and look at yourself and look at your performance as something that's outside of you. You've got to understand that nobody is perfect every time. And there is, in a performance, no perfect. It's not like gymnastics where you get a 10. And sales, it's hard because sometimes we get rewarded even when we don't do well.

Sometimes the customer just is going to buy no matter what we do.

We can't screw it up. And other times, they're not going to buy no matter what we do and how good we demo, how good we discover, how good we persuade.

They're just, they're not in market.

There's no pain there.

Whatever.

It doesn't matter.

Sometimes it's just not going to happen. And this is where the polls on LinkedIn are helping me because like when I ask for very advanced selling characteristics or skills.

I don't get that. I get the very minimum. Like, the minimum is it being likeable. You can't be just a fly on the wall. You've got to have a little bit of a personality. And because people either want to talk with you or have to—

if they have to, you're a customer support rep.

If they want to, You're a sales rep. Now, why they want to can vary, and you can make that whatever it is. It could be what they're talking about, what they care about, or being so knowledgeable about what you sell that they're interested in learning from you. This is the advanced elements of sales. Now, the ones that I think of are like judgment. Can you look at 2 deals and prioritize them? Can you? Can you make a decision? I did a poll on Friday asking, do you make your decisions based off of how it feels or off of your analysis? And of course, a lot of people had to say both, but there wasn't an option, so they couldn't make a decision. And so that— but today, people are pretty much Stating, I'm unique, just for the sake of saying I'm unique. But that doesn't help solve the problem of selling. And sales, the advanced selling skills are things like judgment. What to spend your time on, in what order. And when you're talking to somebody, are you getting the sense that this is somebody who is in active pain? Or latent pain. How big is that pain going to be? Are they going to run the gauntlet to get the order through, or are they going to sit with the status quo and muddle in the pain? Now, that is an advanced selling skill. People think selling skills are just talking. Ah, that's part of it, but it's an increasingly small part of it. in the large complex sale. Large complex sale is much more about strategy. It's much more about judgment, timing, knowing what to do, not falling into the traps that we all fall into. And you know what they are.

You're probably running through them right now, jumping to jump right into those traps and call me up and say, Brian, how do I get out of this?

Now, the other question I got this week was, how are your training courses different than all the other ones out there? And I go, the major difference is I'm a sales rep. I've been a sales rep probably longer than most of you have been alive. And doesn't mean I know everything. It means that I don't know everything. And I have run into those traps that you're running into right now 1,000 times. And I learned my lesson. I wish I learned it earlier, but you can learn it now before you make these mistakes. The training isn't so much about what you say as how you can build rapport with people and start the conversation, get the meeting. And it is not about subject lines. It's not about value propositions. It's about what the other person wants. That's the shocker. Because everybody else— what you talk about, find the gap or the crap between current state and future state. Well, that's not the way people buy. They buy for their reasons. They buy to solve problems for them. Getting them to talk, getting them to share with you, getting you to build that trust one brick at a time.

And the best way to do that is by talking about what they care about. And, and people think like listening is an advanced selling skill. It may be for some people, but it's really these beginning things. And in the course, it's basically why not give you 30 years of experience in 1 year instead of you spending 30 years doing it, doing the trial and error. And see, a fool needs to make the mistakes themselves. Don't— if you're a fool, taking the course isn't going to help you. A genius makes— a genius learns from how other people make mistakes and doesn't make those mistakes. Be a genius. Skip the touching the stove and just watch what happens when someone else touches the stove. And you'll never need to touch the stove. Because the stove is hot and you'll get burnt. And in large complex sales, guess what? You need to sit down and hear through someone who has done it for a long time. Not somebody who just had one job or is a professional sales trainer. I'm not. I did it in the hardest of the hard. Those early-stage startups where you had no brand, you had the product wasn't really done yet, and you didn't have the support. Sound familiar? I bet a lot of you are facing that right now. So if you want to take your game to the next level and, and skip over the Dunning-Kruger effect and get out of that B-player trap and grow with a growth mindset— because what I'm learning about this is that training is an everyday thing in a performance profession. You don't learn to play the piano and then just play it when you need to. You've got to practice. You've got to warm up. You've got to stretch yourself. You've got to take feedback from an audience, from a recording, from an instructor, from a coach. Those people— and you have to be able to crave that. If you can crave that feedback, you will grow so fast. If you're sensitive about the feedback, it's not a reflection of who you are. It's a reflection of that performance. And that performance isn't who you are. It was just how well you did it. And it's okay. And to laugh at it and to learn from it and to hear other people's, that's how you learn. How I learned was sitting down and just interrogating reps who were better than me, reps who had more success than me. My first job, I used to go out to dinner like 3 nights a week with my VP because he was in the office and he had no one to go to dinner with. I had just moved to the area and I had no one to go to dinner with. And after a while, he said, do you really want me to give you the feedback that I know you need? And I was scared a little bit, and I go, of course. And he started telling me. And at first it hurt.

It did.

Because it was like, hit my ego, which is a feeling.

Okay.

And he goes, but it's not about who you are. It's just how well you did this thing in your vantage point. And he said, imagine if you could look at these deals through the eyes of somebody who's been through 1,000 of these deals. And he would push back on me because I'd say the obvious answer, let's go talk to the CEO. And he goes, what do you think's going to happen? And he would walk me through these scenarios. And I learned so much from it because I knew his intent. His intent was to help me. It wasn't to put me down or put him up. He wanted me to become the best rep I could be. And it did hurt the first time, I got to tell you. I went home and I go, is he picking on me? And after the second or third time, I go, he's not picking on me. He has my best interest in mind. And that's what you get out of the courses. It's not a money-making gimmick for me. Yes, it costs money, but the amount of value you get— you get 4 years of office hours, 4 years of one-on-ones in there that are pre-recorded in the course, well organized and labeled, so that there's more content that you could probably consume in the 1-year access that you get. You don't have to pay for it all at once. You can do 12 monthly payments. It's not a membership though. It's a payment plan on a 12-month course. So I just like to make that clear. There's a video in the show notes here. It's on my YouTube channel. It's on my LinkedIn profile. You can— it's 20 minutes long. It shows exactly how the courses are, which one's the right match for you. And what you get out of it. And the key thing is you've got to be self-motivated because no one's dragging you. No one can put this in your head. No one can do it for you. That's just being honest. If you have that motivation, invest in yourself, skip 5 or 10 years of trial and error, and come up with a system to get you to become great at sales.

I'll see you there. Idea and recommendation if you want to take advantage of this.

And it's crazy. This week, this week I'm full of meetings.

I was like, what's happening?

And like, I, what I did was I baked in like, I just, I very generic. And people are like, oh, like, like, tell me more about you. Like immediately I have like 3, 4 meetings. Like I already had 2 this, and, and based on the, on the, on the parameters that you suggested for me, like, oh, go after these bigger companies, X amount of employees. So then by the time I'm talking to them, I already know that, okay, they, they typically have budget. I mean, assuming LinkedIn is correct. With the employee size, some of it was was off, but it's like okay, there's still like a deal. It can it can still happen. And but yeah, I was like whoa, this is like I limited to like thirty connections a day. So then that way it's not like it doesn't go crazy because I remember one of the reps. So do about thirty a day. Like I said, like this week, like four or five meetings. And and and and they're good meeting, you know, and it's just conversations. Like say it's not about like. pitching, but it's about working them up to that point where it's like, okay, yeah, we do need to advertise.

So after teaching this for quite a while, here's the steps that you should take. Take the course once, quickly through it. Find both one-on-ones and office hours that speak to the persona that you want to talk with, whether it be the CEO, the CMO, CRO, developer, marketer, whoever it is that you want to talk to, because we break it down in gory detail. We break down the persona and what they care about. And then try each step. Try it with your friends. Try it with your coworkers and start to see the results. Now, most people will fight me on it. They'll spend the first month, 2 months, uh, trying to make the system fit into their pitchy email and cold calls. And it works a little better, but it works a whole lot better when you apply it because each step and each pause in between each step has been designed over time to be very effective. And then when you start to see the results, all of a sudden people are replying, people are asking you, people are wanting to talk with you, want to understand what you do. It's almost turning Cold outbound into warm inbound. Now, are they in market? No, no, they're not, but they're a little curious. And it's up to us. And I show you in the course, how do you build off of that? Instead of us telling everybody how great we are and hoping they can understand why they need us. And instead of them arguing about why they don't need us. Because until you have active pain, everyone's in denial. Think about going to the doctor. Okay, you kind of know you need an operation, but you're like, can I get a prescription? And the doctor's like, he has to ease you or she has to ease you into the process. Well, let's take an X-ray. Let's see what we're working with here.

Oh, can I— how about just a shot? Can I just get a shot till the next time I come in?

Then he flips the x-ray up on the light and he points to something. He goes, that's what we're dealing with. That doesn't heal on its own. You have to have surgery for that. He has to build up to that. Until we build up that latent pain into active pain and properly diagnose it and get people to think about what happens if they don't have that operation, they're going to avoid it at all costs. That's why the cold pitch doesn't work. You're just igniting the denial. You're not igniting interest or curiosity. It's just denial.

So check out the course. Start the conversation.

Get the meeting. It's all at b2brevenue.com. There's an overview video in the show notes. On my YouTube channel and on my LinkedIn profile, pretty much everywhere I am, as well as the website b2brevenue.com. Check it out if this is what you need. You know, this student, zero sales experience, but really, you know, just gobbled up this. And the people who gobble it up the fastest And the best are people who try it and get success. It has nothing to do with knowledge.

It's like learning how to do a sit-up doesn't give you a 6-pack.

You have to do the sit-ups.

They're not fun at first, but then you get used to them and you start to like appreciating them. And then you start to get the connection between how you look and what you do. And so you start doing the things that make you look better.

This is what we have.

It's not just knowledge. It is applying it, taking feedback, polishing it up, and applying the system to your clients.