THE FASTEST WAY TO BECOME GREAT AT B2B SALES AND SELLING

Hey, before we get into the interview, I want to make sure you're checking out the other podcasts, Sales Questions, Brutally Honest Answers. And if you're looking for more brutal truth, I've got a different feed for the best of the brutal truth. So you may want to check that out. Uh, just search for best of brutal truth and it'll come right up. Also, if you're in sales leadership, the Sales Leadership Show. where I interview the world's best sales leaders. Let's get into the interview and also check out the website at b2brevenue.com for all the training courses. Here we go.

Hey, Mike, thanks for joining us today. As we're getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Yeah, of course. So, I've seen— yeah, my name is Mike, currently VP of Sales at Tugboat. We actually just got acquired 8 months ago. So, I'm moving over to OneTrust to run their GRC sales team, which is Fun stuff. Wasn't always this glamorous. My first sales job was door-to-door insurance sales and was fortunate enough to have my second one be in tech and then was able to kind of build from that.

How long did you last in the door-to-door?

Well, see, I went in giving myself 6 months. I was like, hey, I got no skills. I want to get a good job. They're not going to hire me. So I need to learn.

Right.

And, you know, When you're still in school, there's only a few places that will hire you. And door-to-door insurance sales is one of them. Ironically, one of the early hires at Tugboat worked at the same company, did the same thing. And I was like, you know what? If you could do that, you could do this. So, and he's turned it into really good. He's gotten like 3 promotions and yeah, on the right track.

And what you're selling today is pretty sophisticated, isn't it? It's A lot of stuff.

Yeah, yeah, it can be overwhelming for sure. But it's like anything in life, you know, you just kind of break it apart, try to learn a little bit at a time. And if you get the right support and enablement and collaborative environment, then it's not too hard for, for an outsider to kind of pick it up.

And what was your motivation to get into leadership as opposed to staying a rep?

Yeah, good question. I'm definitely better suited for it. I was always like that sales rep, like, you know, we're all hanging out And I was always a little different. I'd say I wasn't cut the same way. And I grew up playing sports and got into coaching and the oldest of five. And you know, I always, you know, things that it's like your nature, right? A little bit. And you know, career development for an individual contributor, there's a lot of pressure, right? To get like you always think I got to get into management. I got to get into leadership. I got to be VP of sales. I get a lot of questions all the time.

Oh God!

How do you do it, Mike? How do you go from like individual contributor into management, into, you know, whatever, uh, because that's really the only path they see. And, um, yeah, some of it's true, right? It can be tough being a sales rep and, and getting older, and, you know, sometimes people don't hire you. Um, but, uh, yeah.

What about it did you like? I guess I got to assume when you said oldest of 5, you kind of were always the point person to herd the cats, right?

Yeah. Well, so my parents got divorced early when I was 3, remarried, had kids. It's actually, you know, positive and negatives. Positive was that I was 8 years older than my youngest sibling. So I was always like the cooler older brother. That does not carry into management. They don't look at me like, oh, Mike, you're the cool—

You're the coolest.

Yeah, definitely not. But yeah.

What about it do you like?

In terms of leadership, like management?

Yeah, as opposed to being a rep, because you kind of hinted that you— Oh, sure. Did you not feel like you were going to be one of the best reps, or it wasn't your thing, or there was something about leadership that was so much more enjoyable?

It's more fun. Like, if you like building and working with people and seeing other people grow and succeed and figuring out, you know, how to organize people and process and do that better than your competitors and all that. You know, that's a lot of fun.

Yeah.

Closing deals is fun too, for sure. I still love getting on calls and, you know, if you're negotiating a big deal and you get a little anxiety, a little butterflies, you know, whatever you want to call it, adrenaline, that's amazing. It's like laughing, like it's on that same level. But all the other things that go on that you got to do as a rep, you know, isn't, you know—

As glamorous.

Glamorous. Yeah.

And how long did it take you before you became comfortable in leadership?

Yeah, you just take little steps. So, you know, I got into coaching. I got certified as a football coach actually when I was still in school. That helped. I volunteered as a board member, like a nonprofit organization. That was like a little step. I took courses in like change management and project management and that. So you're kind of building your toolkit as you go. And there's a lot of good people out there. There's a lot of people, you see someone do something, you're like, ah, I should do that. That's brilliant. And you see someone do something, you're like, I will never do that. If I'm a manager, I will avoid that at all costs. Yeah, you just try to prepare yourself for the jump and yeah, it wasn't too, too bad. I was fortunate enough here at Tugboat where the team was relatively small. VP of sales of a team of 50 is a little bit different of getting promoted as the first time and you're running a 10,000-person company that's doing $1 billion and you've been a senior director and now you're here. And so it allows for that, I think, easier jump.

And were there any surprises about it that you were like, oh, I've got to do this now?

Yeah, there's definitely some isms that I share with people if they're doing a VP job for the first time, whether it's in sales or whatever. It's, you know, you get rewarded for a couple of things like hand over fist. One of them is, you can't wear the me hat all the time, right? It's got to be the company hat and the customer hat. And if your relationship with your peers, your other execs, your other directors, whatever, they're way more important than your relationship with your boss. If you need to get stuff done, it's really your team there that's going to get that done. And you go to the CEO or whoever for either budget or the rubber stamp or whatever, but it's really that collaboration that drives it. And a lot of people don't own that, I think, as much as they should. The other one I've learned is that you really get rewarded with how well information flows across an organization. So bringing stuff from, you know, sales to product to CS to management, you know, whatever, just having a really easy way for that information to either throw from, you know, through your CRM into Slack or whatever so you can report on it, or you get a new hire, or you get what you're trying to answer, hey, should we build this widget or should we build that widget? trying to have a more constructive conversation, or at least the people in the room have a better idea of what the hell you're actually selling and what our customers actually want. And, you know, because you get a lot of new people, that's just the fact of life.

And you get a lot of people who have never talked to a customer.

Yeah, which, you know, that's a red flag. If you're building, if you're doing things for customers, whether product or CS or sales or whatever, you gotta talk to customers, the good ones, the bad ones, people who love you, people who are churning, Deals you missed, deals you got. Yeah.

And what's the downside of it? What's the part you don't like? Is it the admin of it, the constant update forecast reports?

It's not too bad. It's like a necessity. There's ways you just frame it different, right? You're not having 3 forecast calls a week. You're doing maybe a forecast call, but the other one are deal reviews or whatever, a workshop with your best reps and reps that might— that could learn something for them. You rip apart a deal that you did, try to apply that to anyone, you try to find other ways to, to hit your number than just spending time on the forecast all the time.

And when you're hiring, what do you look for in salespeople?

Yes, it's people— if anyone listens, I say this all the time. So As a company, I think you got to own the skill development in sales. You got to be able to teach people how to sell and you got to be able to teach people about industry. And that's on us to be able to bring people in and do that effectively. And so the hiring then is more around the things you can't coach, you can't uplevel. So it's how— intelligence is a wrong word, but like, hey, how well do they— what's their perspective on things? Can they solve problems? Can they look at things a different way? to have a good head and to be able to rationalize and things like that. The other one is taking pride in your work. If you get smart people who care about their work, it's not rocky. You're going to be okay, whatever challenges that might get thrown at you. And then the third one is really the difference between, I think, the organizations that can really take advantage of the opportunity in the market, and is how well they work together. If you can find people who collaborate and take that approach, then you got them at— fundamentally, your foundation is solid. You got smart people who care about their work, who's going to work well with others. And so you should be able to execute relatively quickly in the market and go beat out your customers or definitely move faster than a large incumbent if that's who you're trying to take out.

And have you learned anything from making a hiring mistake because it happens all the time?

Yeah, for sure. You know, for the hiring mistakes, you just gotta own it, right? And let the managers know, let, you know, if you're a CEO, let your VPs know or whoever that it's okay to make a mistake hiring. Like the expectation is not that you're gonna, that it's like part of your identity. Oh God, Brian, if you've fired this person, that means you suck, right? Or you're not perfect anymore or whatever. It's got to be okay to let people go.

And what caused it? Was the person just a good interviewer? Or did you go through the process too fast? Did you not check references? Did they just change once they became part of the company?

No, it's, it's usually the— it's time, it's usually pressure. And it'll come at you a couple of different ways. One of them is, You need to get some, like, especially in fast-growing startups, like, you need to get people in at this cadence because you need to go do these things, whether it's doubling your pipeline in 6 months or this much revenue or whatever. And you see this in sales and CS and what have you. And so you find people and you're like, they're not perfect, but I'm going to give them a shot, you know, because no, not that they're perfect, but hey, I have these concerns. But I'm going to ignore them because they're the best that we've interviewed to this day, and I'm just going to give them an opportunity.

And do they always have to have sales experience, or are you looking for people out of other backgrounds?

It depends on the role they're applying for. So if they're coming in as an SDR, junior-level salesperson responsible for pipeline gen, then yeah, not at all. If they're coming into the commercial team, relatively, you know, like $0 to $500 million a year companies, then yeah, no, it's, you just, they got to score higher in the other areas. But if you're, it's just like, it's competition, right, for the role. If you're bringing in someone to do enterprise deals, 6-figure deals, whatever, there's going to be solid candidates with SaaS sales experience that might come from industry. So they're going to win out over those that don't. Something that, you know, built up here at Tugboat is we call it like review. Like we can, you know, take someone, has, doesn't know a lick about anything, but they trying really hard and we can start them over here. And in 24 months, they'll graduate from that team to the account executive team. And then there's like a step function, um, stair-step, like through that team as well. And, you know, it's on us to train them, to enable them, to coach them, you know, give them some latitude here and there, right. To screw up. And yeah, it's been really helpful in today's market where You don't get to hire everyone that you want right away. It's hard to find good people. And if you have an environment where you're investing in people and you're building skills, then it's usually a good place to work and they are appreciative and all that kind of stuff.

And on the coaching side, did the football coaching thing transfer well to sales coaching or?

Not really. No, actually at all. Football coaching is not how you coach people. It's, hey, Jessa, would you stop doing that? Jesus Christ, told you 5— you know, you can't do that. Uh, which is, you know—

You'd like to.

Well, I don't know. Would you? That's not really—

At times.

Stressful. Yeah. Uh, the, the real thing is, was early in the career, you know, and coming into organizations, you always try to, hey, who's doing this the best? All right, I'm gonna go talk to them and try to do what they're doing. And it's not the rep that's closing the most revenue or, you know, whatever it says. And you're trying to really— what I found is you're finding people are exceptional in different areas of the sales funnel. And so it's kind of up to you to go figure out and try to bottle up whatever it is they're doing and put together your own, you know, playbook. And I really saw that as the biggest gap between somebody who's kind of middle of the pack and the great ones is they're collaborating and sharing and are learning how to do things the best way today. And most of the companies that I worked at didn't have a muscle on the investigative journalism to go figure that out, bottle it up, and give it to the reps in a very tactical, 20-minute workshop session, just so they can walk away out of that and say, hey, I can do this one thing like Brian, and I'm going to see if it works, right? And so that's what we've, yeah, tried to, try to implement here at Tugboat and hopefully OneTrust.

Because I think it's up to, or best done by a manager, because the rep who's doing it well, they're really not sure why they're doing it well.

Yeah.

They may even don't— it's subconscious. It's like unconscious competence.

Yeah, definitely. And, you know, performance can be sliced so many different ways. Yeah. Some people are really great at demos. Some people are really great at negotiating. Some people are really good at prospecting. And sometimes their situation kind of hide that, right? They're in a bad territory, you know, it's a really big deal. don't have product-market fit for that segment, you know, whatever.

That's it. I always said, go find the rep who's successful, who you wouldn't think should be successful. Yeah, they don't look like a sales rep, they don't act like a sales rep, their territory is kind of weird, but they still hit their number, they crush it.

Yeah, yeah. And, uh, you know, where I think sales teams are going with business analytics and RevOps and all that stuff, and It's really helping enable all that so you can find what's working and not working a lot easier. Yeah.

How about people faking that though? Because a lot of managers, you know, kind of want that type of information and the people just give it to them, but it's not real.

Yeah. So you're talking about managers giving the answers versus—

oh no.

Well, let's say the problem is you get the observer effect.

Yeah.

Once you tell people, oh, we're finding a correlation between number of calls and revenue going up.

Yeah.

They just pretend they call the theater 5 times a day to get the number of calls up.

Yeah. Well, luckily I took stats. And so the correlation thing, I, you know, don't buy it. It's like, okay, what are they saying on the calls? Who are they talking to? Yeah, what are the— what's the customer saying? What are their problems? You know, that's really the heart of it. It's not the activity KPI. God, yeah. Dials per day, right? That's—

Well, that's it, because it's really detective work, what you call investigative journalism.

Sure. Yeah.

It's trying to reverse engineer what somebody's doing.

Yeah.

And find little distinctions.

Yeah. Yeah, there's tools that can help you with that. Like they'll record calls, they'll record demos, all that kind of stuff. So you can put it together a lot easier today than you could a while ago.

A long time ago, right? You envision then you have to interview the rep and it's their take.

Yeah, which is hard for them, right?

Very hard. And they typically think it's, oh, they just like me or I've been doing this for a while.

Yeah, you're actually really good at linking their challenges to the outcomes that they want to get and linking that to metrics so you can get your budget approved. That's what you're good at. Right? Yeah.

And have you found any correlation or causation between the very best reps and the okay reps?

Like what makes a really good rep and what makes an okay rep?

Yeah.

Yeah. A good analogy is for at least how I think about it, deals, right? It's not single-threaded, it's multi-threaded, especially in today's environment, right? And so good reps will, if you look at the matrix of like good sales skills, they'll have most of them down, right? They'll have like 80% of them down and they're doing good at it. And the average rep might have 60%. And then that's how I see it. It's not, it's never black and white. It's, it's really a combination of skills that leads you to becoming the best rep. And can you do that consistently? And even like an understanding. I'd say the biggest jump I've seen from an average salesperson to an exceptional one is if you just look at like skill, right? Like sales acumen. One of them is like really understanding a methodology. And I talk about this cooking. I love cooking. So I'm like, hey, There are good cooks out there who don't know anything about the difference between French cuisine, Italian cuisine, certain techniques, but they won't last in a kitchen, right? They can't do that all the time. You can show up to their house on like a Tuesday and get a great meal, but they can't produce 1,000 dishes a night and someone's going to pay for that. And so to be the best rep, you need to understand different sales methodologies and have one that you own and you fall back on. Because without that, it— you're, you're like that Tuesday night, you know, having a family dinner versus working in a restaurant.

That's a great point because I love the cooking analogy because people can relate to it. Everyone's cooked and everyone eats.

Yeah.

Um, and too many people without a process What they end up doing is just being reactive. What do I do in this case? Well, how did you get to that case?

Yeah. Or they'll be working on a deal and there'll just be a blind spot. And if you don't have a way to look at your deals and evaluate your performance and what have you, then it's not as effective.

And I got to imagine in your space, a lot of them may have the service mindset instead of the sales mindset. Which puts you in that single-threadedness. Oh, they told me not to talk to anybody else.

Yeah.

Well, you don't work for them. Yeah.

Yeah. It's, it's, uh, yeah, that's true. Trying to, trying to get, you know, I'd say even people in general, right. To kind of push through to what they think is right. whatever outcome it is, could be like winning the deal versus what the people that they're working with, their prospect is telling them that they should do for sure. Yeah. Like, hey, am I working with a coach, a champion, whoever? Who do I need to talk to? How many of these are there?

And how about things like competitiveness and emotional attachment to success or failure in the interview process? Is that something that you've kind of looked for? Or ferret out?

Yeah, definitely. It's more around like pride in their work. You know, it's gotta be careful though. If people are too attached, like their self-identity is too attached to doing a good job, like getting an A+, it cannot always be the best thing for the team and the person you want, right? They'll be slow to admit fault. They won't have a growth mindset, a lot of identity into how they're performing this task. So if they're wrong, then that's on— that's me, that's Mike. Mike's perfect. I'm not wrong on this.

Mike's never made a mistake.

Yeah. Which is not reality, obviously. So yeah, it's part of it, but it's not like a big part of the interview.

And what do you see other managers doing either wrong Or going against what you think would work? Not at your company, but just the ones you've experienced either in the past or through networking or friends or—

Yeah. Well, it depends. A lot of managers just come to me here. Some of them, I always see, I see there's like 2 different types of managers. You have the manager who was just a rep and they can struggle sometimes with not being a rep. They just want to do it. Hey, I got the answer, just let me do it, rather than working through the reps so they can do it. That whole teach a man to fish thing. Then you have the manager who's been a manager for 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, and they can't do it anymore. They haven't kept up with it. So if they needed to jump in to save a deal, they really struggle with that. And so their management style is very friendly, like, hey, my role here at the company is to make you feel good and work through your problems. Mr. Rep, right? Or Mrs. Rep. And so you want to try to bring them into the middle a little bit, right? And work with them on— that's kind of the biggest— yeah, the things I see a lot with managers.

Yeah. I mean, what I'm seeing today is a lot of them are really glorified RevOps people instead of leaders. Yeah, because the toys have taken over if you let them, you know, all the data, all the insights and stuff.

It depends on what their job description is. And if you have a RevOps team, and if they're proficient, if you got a good RevOps program, and you've invested in your tech, and it's easy to run reports and accessible, right, and you've kind of Maybe pulled that out of Salesforce and you have a specific widget just just for that. Yeah, you know their their sales manager's role is I would argue around performance improvement, and that should be their core function. What they hang their hat on: Hey, I can take a rep, and at the end of them working at this company, they're going to leave and someone's going to ask them, "How'd you get so good at sales?" I worked at Tugboat and I worked for Michelle. Right. She was awesome. She coached me and helped me in these areas. And, you know, that's how I think that managers should hang— self-identify with and hang a hat on and say, hey, I'm a good manager for these reasons, because I can do this.

So how do you set that up? Is it an hour a week? Is it pick a skill a month? Is it a— do you have— what's your process?

Yeah, for sure. One of them is being aware of what the managers are spending their time on and the reps, and just always asking the question, is this ratio what we want, or should we pull things out of here so you can focus more on coaching reps and reps can maybe focus more on working deals than internal meetings or prospecting or whatever? And it kind of starts there, and then it allows you to build that cadence because the cadence is really a reflection of your availability. Like, how much time do you have to be able to designate to this? And how big of a problem is it? If your conversion rates are really low in certain areas of the funnel, or performance is pretty wide, a big distribution, instead of everyone being kind of here, you got a lot of— you got a bunch of great reps, and, you know, the big range between not doing well and average, then you know, you got a performance problem, and you should spend more time coaching. And yeah, so at least to talk about, yeah, so we set it up. We have monthly roundtables, we do biweekly skill workshop sessions. The team is pretty collaborative too. You can set up your sales, you have a sales manager and they do sales management functions. And then we have a team lead function. They're still an individual contributor, but they're incentivized on their pod performance. And if someone has a Hey, Brian, I got dealing with this competitor. Give me your playbook or just help me here. You know, they'll provide that guidance like, hey, this is how you're— I'm doing it today, or a good way to do it. It's worked in the past. And that seems to help as well.

And have you found many reps or any reps that just aren't coachable?

Where they're—

yeah, for sure. Yeah, of course.

That's part of the mistakes, right, in hiring. Yeah.

And let's say they're a B player, you know, 80% to 100% of quota. What do you do with them?

Uh, it depends on their attitude. So if they got the right attitude and the work ethic and, and the coachable and all that kind of stuff, you invest them. You pour your heart into those people because those are going to be your, your next rock stars. And, and when you build them up, they're going to be very appreciative. And usually if an organization is good at taking a B player and putting them, making them an A player, that's a good muscle to have. You want to be able to do that consistently because you can find a lot more B players than you can A players. And you want your hiring pool to be as big as you can. You know, if you're, if I'm walking into an HR person, it's like, hey, we need to, we need to find someone who's been in industry for, for 10 years, uh, who's their top rep. Uh, you're gonna get like 3 people. You know, how do you scale? How do you scale? Right.

Yeah. But, but how about if They're not coachable. What do you do with them?

Yeah. If they're not coachable, then you want to try to unpack why that is and really understand that. If you go through that exercise and you're like, they're not coachable. Okay. Well, are they a negative impact on the team? Right. If those 2 can usually be a yes. And like, if they're not coachable, they're usually a problem for the team. It could be a personality thing. And so you just work them out of the org. You just, yeah, you can't, you just can't do it.

Yeah. And what advice would you have for somebody who's not sure if they want to get into leadership or not? Let's say they're, yeah, 35, you know, a little burnt out as being a rep.

Yeah, uh, take baby steps, you know, see if you like it. It, uh, if you're working for a good company, they might give you a shot, right? Like, okay, hey, You're going to be included in interviews now more often, or you're going to work with me through this part of my job function as a sales manager. Or, you know, having a conversation with them and seeing what they're unsure about. It could be dealing with people versus yourself. It could be the admin. It could be not having the confidence in being able to put together a forecast or, you know, whatever. And so just being honest about that and seeing if you can expose them to those areas to help them make the decision, I'd say is key. You know, read a book, go talk to sales managers if you don't have that. What I— the first thing there is an option. Yeah, that would be the thing. You know, sales reps, I'd see it too. And it's a conversation I've had multiple times, like, hey, I've been in sales, I love sales. I know there's kind of expiry with this role. So what should I do next? And there's a lot of options for them. Like, they can go into enablement if they want, they can go into RevOps, they could go into Yeah, leadership, or you stay on that individual contributor track. Yeah.

Cool. Hey, Mike, appreciate your time today. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

I am not a LinkedIn spotlight like yourself. We are hiring. So, you know, if you ever want to, you know, work at OneTrust, definitely welcome to hit me up on LinkedIn and, and take it from there.

And to become great at sales, the best way is to model somebody who already has become good at sales and to hear other people who have become great at sales and the journey that they're going through, the false beliefs, the misnomers, the mindset issues, all of the stuff that gets in our way between where we are And the income that we want. Let's face it, we're in sales because we're money motivated, we're competitive, we want to be better every day than we were yesterday. And how do we do that? Hmm, just really, you know, read a book, listen to a podcast. That's good, good start, I like it. But then you have to take action. And then you want both tactical and strategic ideas. You want mindset. You want strategy. You want to understand how companies buy. You want really deep content and examples, case studies, so that you can learn from other people's mistakes. That's what I'm here for. I'm here for you to learn from my mistakes. And boy, do I got a lot of them. So go to b2brevenue.com. Sign up for the courses. There's 2 major ones. Start the conversation, get the meeting, fills up your pipeline, gets rid of that problem of, oh, I don't have enough leads. I don't have enough meetings. It gets those conversations started with the people you want to talk to. Now, it's not about a pitch. It's about a conversation. Now, everybody thinks of conversations when you're talking or you're online at the same time, or you're on the phone or Zoom at the same time. That's not a conversation. A conversation's when the client is talking about what they care about, what they're interested in. And that is what we call qualification, where we can sense where are they and how do we build up that curiosity into interest into urgency to get a deal. And these are skills that we need. They're lifelong skills that we need in sales. And then how do we get a deal closed? Yes, anyone can take an order, but what if they don't know how to get it done? You got a new account where you're trying to get a big change done internally. What are the issues? If you're not planning that through, odds are it's not going to get done no matter how much your champion wants it. So winning the complex sale solves that problem for you. Why waste all your time on these false positives or these no decisions? Because they don't pay very well. They pay 0.0. What you want to do is pay a lot. So sign up today. Invest in yourself. You're the asset in sales. Quit waiting for somebody else to approve it or train you. See if you can get it expensed. That should be your first sales obstacle. Your first sales challenge is how do you get your company to pay for it? Just go down, tell your manager you want to do this. I put a little example email in the show notes right below here. Just swipe up and take a look at that. And if they won't, you got to ask yourself, why won't you? Why won't you? Oh, it takes time. Well, you work all day. You're working wrong all day. Why not improve that? There's the time right there. Oh, the money, Brian. It's money. Well, you make more money if you become better in sales. And Start the Conversation pays for itself the first week because you're going to get at least 2 meetings Just learning from the very basics of it. Closing the Complex Sale will pay for itself 100 times over. Students in it tell me it's the best money they ever spent because they now have control over their deals. And it doesn't end. Some give up. Some give up after they win their first deal and they think they've got enough. No, come back. Come back. Keep going. You can get even bigger deals, more deals, faster deals. That's what it's all about. Sign up today. Put the excuses away. Yeah, excuses feel good, but they're expensive.

Excuse—

you know what the excuses are costing you? Tens, 50, maybe a couple hundred thousand dollars a year in lost income. Really?

Yeah.

The difference between where you are today— let's say you're making $150,000. Decent, decent income. But you know, there's other people in your industry making $300K, $400K, $500K. Well, how are you going to do that? You all think it's just about getting a better job, a better territory, a better manager. They can help. Go do that. Then what happens? It's still you there with those leads, trying to close those deals and Do you have the game? Few people do. Everyone thinks they do. Why not prove it? The market tells you what you're worth. Accept it. Now become better. And the way to become better is to improve every day. Really make a daily routine of learning and developing because it's not at the knowledge level. You have to become unconsciously competent at these skills, which takes time, repetition, and emotion. And I show you how to do it, how I did it, how I've taught hundreds of people to do it. But you have to want to because I can't force you. A lot of people wish I could. So do I, but I can't. So sign up today.

We'll see you next time.