THE FIRST RULE OF SALES CLUB - DO NOT ACT LIKE A SALESPERSON
21 Sept 2023 · 33 min
In this episode of the Sales Club podcast, host Brian Burns and guest (Speaker C) discuss why modern B2B salespeople should abandon the stereotypical "salesperson" persona and instead act as authentic peers. They critique clichéd tactics such as aggressive scripts, "always be closing," and mass‑email spamming (including the Predictable Revenue model), arguing that these approaches irritate buyers and lead to ghosting. The conversation highlights the importance of empathy, confidence (as comfort in one’s own skin rather than cockiness), curiosity, and genuine interest in the prospect’s problems. They examine how the flood of unsolicited pitches on LinkedIn and Instagram creates buyer fatigue, making it harder to get meetings but also rewarding those who take a different, listening‑first approach. Traits of successful salespeople are identified – confidence, passion, willingness to ask tough questions, and the ability to make the prospect look good. The hosts stress that effective sales is a conversation where the prospect does most of the talking, and that salespeople must be both efficient (high activity) and effective (meaningful outcomes). They also note that many new reps are taught outdated, script‑driven habits by teachers who haven’t sold in years. Throughout the episode, the hosts promote their training programs at b2brevenue.com, positioning the courses as a way to develop the described skills and avoid common pitfalls.
Chapters
Hey, before we get into the interview, I want to make sure you're checking out the other podcasts, Sales Questions, Brutally Honest Answers. And if you're looking for more brutal truth, I've got a different feed for the best of the brutal truth. So you may want to check that out. Just search for best of brutal truth and it'll come right up. Also, if you're in sales leadership, the Sales Leadership Show, Let's get into the interview and also check out the website at b2brevenue.com for all the training courses.
Here we go. So, how do you act like a salesperson? What's your recipe?
I try not to act like a salesperson actually because I think that gets me a little bit further along. I mean, there's a lot of clichés with how salespeople act. People act over the years, you know, from movies or Always Be Closing, all that type of stuff. But I think some of it is validated and there's a lot of cringeworthy things that a lot of sales folks do do that irritates the buyers and the customers. So I think it's really hard for, it's really hard to get in front of customers, get meetings, et cetera, these days compared to in the past. And unfortunately there's a lot of clichés that I think customers associate with salespeople. So I think the more you act not like a salesperson and act more like a peer, the better off you're gonna be. And then try to stay away from some of those kind of cliché things and bad habits that a lot of salespeople do. So the more I've kind of came off as a peer or one of them and not acted like a salesperson, the better I've done. And I think it's much harder for, harder to get meetings and get deals these days. So if you don't act a little bit different and act outside of that typical salesperson persona, you're gonna really struggle depending on what type of company you're working for.
Yeah, because you get treated the way you act. And if you act like a salesperson, you'll get treated like a salesperson. And when I post on LinkedIn about this, there's a lot of salespeople don't know what I'm talking about. And I feel like saying, look in the mirror. But because— and we're taught to do it. We hear our managers with their sing-songy voice talking in rhythms and pre-canned lines. You can tell that that person said that at least 1,000 times that way, you know, a full paragraph about why they're better or that. And okay, you hear a salesperson. Do you feel bad about ghosting the salesperson?
No.
No.
Why?
Because they're all out for themselves. They don't care about anyone else. They just want what they want. They want your time and your money. And if you listen to the interviews on the podcast of the best salespeople, how many of them sound like salespeople?
Not very many. Probably none. Yeah.
Because when they do, I'm like, I roll my eyes and I'm like, yeah, this is not really gonna connect. And I think people say, well, how do I act? Well, hopefully like yourself, that you have an authentic self, someone that you're comfortable in your own skin. And I've kind of used that term instead of confidence because confidence gets misinterpreted as cockiness. People don't know what confidence means in this context. It just means you're comfortable in your own skin. You're neither nervous or anxious or desperate, and you're showing more interest in the other person than in yourself, and you're not using any of the sales bullshit language. Let's schedule a next step. Let's discover the issues. What pain points do you have? How does your decision process work here? Why not just say, I'm a salesperson and I will tolerate any misbehavior you have? And they will ghost you because there's no connection there. And today, a lot of managers are trying to squeeze out any humanity out of the process. You know, when I see the equations, I know that person has no clue how to sell because they want to feel comfortable with the equation, not the reality. Because the reality is a little messy, it's a little, um, different, it's a little uncontrollable, it's a little bit of art. And not the science that everybody wants it to be. And I think that's why, you know, the predictable revenue thing was so popular was predictable. I like predictable. And all it is is spamming in a different way. And everybody thinks, you know, coming up with a better way to spam is selling. But I don't know if I, how many emails do you connect with and you say, gee, I'd really like to talk to that person. They seem to really understand what I'm going through.
I'm very empathetic to salespeople, but I delete pretty much all of those and I don't even look at them.
Yeah. And, you know, I'm in market for a lot of stuff, but when you get it, you're like, and I've replied to a couple and they don't know what to do with me because they're not used to anyone replying. It works that ineffectively. And now companies keep adding technology to this, like the dialers. And, you know, and if I go through my Instagram feed, it must be 5 or 10 appointment-setting companies. And I think to myself, if you're so good at setting appointments, why do you need to advertise?
That's a good. I love that pushback because I get the same things on Instagram, and yeah, it's bad on Instagram and LinkedIn actually for that matter. I mean, because the it's getting harder and harder because there's so many people doing what you're talking about. They're pitch slapping. They're doing this immediate sales stuff, and the reality is the buyer has access to so much information now compared to before that they can. get a lot of stuff on the website on their own through AI, whatever. So they don't need the salespeople as much. And on top of that, they're getting pounded with pitches on LinkedIn the second they connect with somebody everywhere they go. So it's whether you have good intentions or not, they can't decipher through all the noise, you know, what is a good company, what is a good rep, or what is a good opportunity. They have no idea because they're just getting pounded left and right, especially if they have like a VP or higher title. And I think they're getting kind of fed up too. I mean, I see more and more stuff on LinkedIn with the people I'm connected with and talking about spam on LinkedIn and getting instant pitches once they connect with people. And it's, it's a lot of it's completely irrelevant about franchisees or whatever it may be, but it's, it's starting to pick up even more momentum, which I think hurts sales in some way because it's going to be harder to get in front of people, but it also maybe helps people like ourselves that are actually doing it a different way and, and have a process and are actually curious and listening to the other people and want to, want to learn about the company and, and be the right fit. So it's an interesting dynamic, but it's getting, it seems to be accelerating in the wrong direction, which maybe that helps me, but it, it also makes it harder to get in front of people.
Well, I think it helps because you're doing something different. I think people do it because they don't know what else to do. And, you know, I did a video on quit sending your love letters. You know, I'd love 15 minutes of your time. I'd love to give you a demo of our product. I'd love to learn more about what you're doing. Nobody cares. You're so desperate that you're, you're sending your little wish out into the world, the message in the bottle sales approach. You don't have to do that. You know, is that how you would date? Is that how you would have friendships? Is that how you would get to know a stranger? No, no, no. You would talk to them. You would show interest in them. And that's why we have salespeople. Why don't we just get everyone's email address in our total addressable market, shove it into a marketing automation thing and let it run? Send an email once a day until they buy or unsubscribe. Why not do that?
Some people probably try it.
Everyone's doing it. Yeah. The problem is they're not buying. When you're getting more unsubscribes than interest, maybe it's not working.
And I guess they'll, they'll kick it back up to the top of your inbox. So don't worry.
Oh, bumps. Yeah, I'm bumping this up. Then one idiot was telling me, well, the bump does work. And it's like, okay, if that's what you consider working, maybe you're not in sales. And you get messages all the time. I get at least 5 a day from sales authors, experts, and I love that they're authors and experts and it's all a pitch. It's Why they're so great and nothing about what you're going to do for me or my audience. I don't— yes, I know you think you're great. Oh, you're the one person that doesn't think you're great? No one surprises me. You know, Brian, I'm not the greatest. I'm okay. No one says that. No, it's all, I'm great. And then they hound me and it's like, okay, But I've had like maybe one or two that did something smart for me, built up a know, like, and trust relationship with me before they'd ask for something. That works because I know they're not gonna be a dick afterwards. Because most of them are complete dicks afterwards as well. You know, when are you posting that? When are you promoting me? I'm like, I don't know, am I a public service out here? You know, is it my job? Am I your PR agent? No, it's like, you have, these are sales experts. So you can imagine what a new person in sales feels like. What are they told? Send 50 of these and place 50 of these calls a day. That's selling. And I did a video on, you know, Sales is only a numbers game for those who don't know how to sell. Because if you don't know what to do, the only thing you have is to do what you know. And if what you know isn't working, what do you do? Do you step back and find a smarter way? No, you do more of it. But if you're walking in the wrong direction, you're not getting there faster. You're going away from your target faster, but it feels, since you're walking, you're taking action, you're making progress just in the wrong direction. Other than that, you're doing good.
It's the whole efficient versus effective conversation because they feel that they're being efficient because they're making 100 calls or 100 emails, whatever it may be. But they're not actually getting anything done if, and they're not being effective. So you have to really be both. So work smarter, not harder, and be effective and efficient. So yeah, interesting conversation. What do you think some of the traits of the salespeople that don't act like, that don't act like salespeople are? I mean, I have a few that come up for me that I, I like. I think having that confidence and passion, however you want to say confidence. But I think the passion, you can definitely tell the difference when people, they believe in their product or service, they're out, you know, have the right intentions to help you as the buyer. So I think that confidence and passion definitely stands out. They're not afraid to push back sometimes when and ask some of those tough questions, whether it's sooner than later, but I think they will have those tough conversations with the customer and that customer will maybe be pissed at in the short term, but they'll respect them in the long term because they're kind of looking out for them. And then I think you're also trying to make your customer look good. So you're kind of sticking your neck out there at times to make them look good and you want them to be successful because they're putting themselves on the line ultimately if they're going to be supporting your products. So those are a few things that I think have helped me kind of stand out and not be like your typical salesperson. What else do you see on your end?
Well, I think there's a total lack of empathy. So when there's a total lack of empathy, what do they do? They think about themselves, which is the opposite. That's narcissism, not empathy. And how many salespeople act more like a narcissist than an empathetic or an empath?
Probably quite a bit.
Because if you were empathetic, you would know where the other person is and what they're thinking and how to approach them. And, you know, if I wanted to get on somebody else's podcast, I would not pitch myself. I would tell them what I'm going to do for them, but I would do it before I tell them. I would show them what I'm going to do for them, and when they see that, they won't think I'm a salesperson. They think of me as a partner, somebody in their network that's adding value to them. And we've all been at a party where somebody comes around with their business card and they treat the party like it's a conference, whether they're a personal trainer, they just started their insurance business or whatever, and they just want to see who's interested. Well, they're not there to be interested in your personal training or your new business. They're there to have fun and get to know people. And when you get the card, you kind of put it in your pocket, you smile and nod at them, and then you say, oh, I gotta go talk to Dustin over there. I'll be right back.
So true.
They're not talking about you, but, but if they If they did talk about you, they say, you know, are you a runner? You look like a runner. Or are you into football? Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, you've been playing all your life, or is this something new? All of a sudden they're showing interest in you. And then a few minutes into it, you'll say, so what do you do? Well, thanks for asking. I just started this personal training. It's been my passion my whole life. And unlike other personal trainers, I focus in on what your goal is and work together with you. I'm sure you're all set, but if you know anybody who's looking for a personal trainer, I'd be happy to take an introduction. Something that's much more conversational than it is coercion. Because when we're talking to a salesperson, we want what we want quickly because we don't want to talk to them. Because now we know we're going to get into the objection handling loop any minute now. And how do you get out of that? Because they've been trained to handle objections. It's not an objection. It's kind of like, you know, I don't know what to say. I'm busy, another meeting. Oh, this will only take a sec.
Ah.
And then did they want to talk to you the next time they see your caller ID? Or your email? No, no, no. The very best salespeople that I've had on the show dig into the person, not the product, not even the problem yet. The person, who they are, what they want to accomplish, what they're interested in. And it's not about becoming their friend. It is being about friendliness, being friendly, being enjoyable. to converse with. Charm and charisma. Now, what do you think of this Jimmy Fallon thing that's been going on? Now, he's probably up there as the most likable person on TV. I mean, you don't see many, uh, Jimmy Fallon haters, do you?
No, I'm not completely up to speed on what's going on with him, but yeah, he's always been really, really likable.
Right. The major issue with the writers was he liked the joke but it didn't fit his image because he's this very likable guy on TV.
No.
In reality, he's got a show to put on every night and he may not be the most understanding boss in the world. But, you know, I listen to a lot of comedian podcasts, but everyone who's got a daily show tends not to be very nice because it's a hard job. Imagine it being the end of the quarter every day. You got to put on that show every day, and you're competing against 3 other shows of equally talented people. And you get the ratings every week. And you can't say it's the writer, you can't say it's the showrunner. It's you. You're the point guy. So you may not be as understanding as you should be. But you would like to talk with Jimmy Fallon if you saw Jimmy Fallon at a bar or at a restaurant, or he came— you bumped into him at an airport. You'd like to talk to the guy, right?
Oh yeah, for sure.
He's likable. How many salespeople even work on that likability?
Not very many. Not very many. They just throw out clichés about it's all about relationships or something to that effect. But it's, I guess, the curiosity part of it. You mentioned it earlier. You have to really kind of care what they care about and be genuinely curious about what they're up against or what they have going on. What is their personal win within the organization or on that project? I mean, there's a lot of things you can really dig into. And that was just something sort of natural with me is I always ask more questions than I talk. So that's boded well. But I think when you have those meetings, you want them to be talking majority of the time versus you. And that's usually the sign of the best meeting. But I don't know where my curiosity originally came from. I, maybe it was because I liked history or something, but I always seemed to ask more questions than talk because I'm sort of like an introverted extrovert maybe. But that, that boded well for me in sales, that's for sure.
Yeah. What worked for me is I didn't want to talk.
There you go.
Because, you know, the last thing I wanted to be was that guy up there with the PowerPoint having to entertain everybody for an hour. I'm not learning anything. I'm just— I'm teaching what's new in our company and hoping that they're interested. But what I learned was if I came up with great questions, I could get them talking all the time. And then I learned what was really going on. And, and through that, you can determine how qualified it is and if a presentation even makes sense. But the timing's not right, or something else would be a better use of time. And guess what everyone's favorite topic is?
Themselves.
No, my product. And the problem is it's the favorite topic for the salesperson as well. The salesperson's favorite topic is themselves, not the client.
Yeah, yeah.
And, and if I've learned anything in the last 5 years, a lot of people have a hard time talking about anything that's not about them, which really narrows it down. So then the client has to come to you, meaning they have to exit their world and wonder what's going on in your world, which is the opposite of curiosity. They have to be curious. And if they're not curious and you're not curious, there's no opportunity. But most of these great salespeople that I interview, they're going into accounts that don't even know they have the problem yet. And they're thinking, how do I present this in a way that becomes interesting to them? It's a lot more work, but everyone would rather play the numbers game of finding somebody who's already interested but just happens to not know about me. So I gotta go introduce myself. But those days are kind of over, aren't they?
I think so. I mean, I've, I'm about 13 years in and then the last, since COVID I feel like it's changed substantially. And I've also been in a few different industries the last 3 or 4 years, but it seems pretty consistent. I think the buyer and the customer side, they're just fed up with all the BS stuff you were talking about and they're just not gonna, Do it unless if they're in a position where they have to have that, and then it's more of an inbound thing. But that's very rare unless if you're a massive company. But I think you have to be doing the stuff that we're talking about. Otherwise, you're gonna get eaten alive in sales, especially if you're trying to find new business, new logos, new opportunities. I mean, you have to be more creative and be different and stand out. And why would you want to be like everybody else anyway? I mean, I've always had the mentality of Trying to be different and stand out and go above and beyond in a unique way. And a lot of that is just doing the basic stuff that we're talking about is making it about the customer versus making it about you and your features and benefits. But that's not what, to the defense of these younger folks coming out of school, they're not getting taught that. So they're getting the, they're getting the bad habits out of the gates. So it's not necessarily their fault because people are teaching them that. And most of the people that are teaching them that haven't sold probably in 10, 15 years. And they're in a, it's a completely different environment now.
Yeah. And it's finding interest, you know, because I did nothing but startups and what I always found ironic was that the first impression that they had of the category was based off of the prettiness of the website, had nothing to do with capabilities of the product. They had no idea what the capabilities were or how it applied to them. So how else could they judge the company other than the image on this, on the website? Now you take that because we think we understand the differentiators. Let's say we're the market leader, that product is years ahead of the competition, but what's the client think?
Who knows?
Maybe it's a review site, maybe it's word of mouth, maybe it's what they saw at a trade show.
Who knows?
And then now we have to change that impression that they have, and that requires a conversation. You're not going to do that with a, a one-liner. Oh, you're right, they have a prettier website, but our product's more capable. You're acting like a salesperson, right?
Mhm.
Instead of saying like, what are you looking to accomplish here? How, how's it work today? And do you understand the issues once it's implemented? How could you? You don't— you haven't implemented it yet. But would you like to hear how other people have done it and how this could really improve your career?
Yeah.
So I think the worst way you can act is like a salesperson. Act like you just met them at a party because you, you'll behave more appropriately. And we've all been at the party with the person who just talks about themselves. I had this one friend at a beach house and he had the same skit. He was into mag lift trains and he was like this industry expert. And he could turn any conversation into how it applies to maglev trains. And you were— an hour was just erased from your life.
He was at the beach house.
Well, he was a guest, but— and you had to endure it or find a way of getting out of there. And everyone knew it. So you kind of stayed away from the guy. And that's how a salesperson behaves. If your friends don't, the people that you want to be around don't behave that way. They tell stories that you're interested in. They tell anecdotes that you care about. They bring out the best in you, not showing their best.
And to become great at sales. The best way is to model somebody who already has become good at sales and to hear other people who have become great at sales and the journey that they're going through, the false beliefs, uh, the, the misnomers, the mindset issues, all of this stuff that gets in our way between where we are and the income that we want. Let's face it, we're in sales Because we're money motivated, we're competitive, we want to be better every day than we were yesterday. And how do we do that? Hmm, just really, you know, read a book, listen to a podcast. That's good, good start. I like it. But then you have to take action. And then you want both tactical and strategic ideas. You want mindset, you want strategy. You want to understand how companies buy. You want really deep content and examples, case studies, so that you can learn from other people's mistakes.
That's what I'm here for. I'm here for you to learn from my mistakes. And boy, do I got a lot of them.
So go to b2brevenue.com, sign up for the courses. There's 2 major ones. Start the conversation, get the meeting, fills up your pipeline, gets rid of that problem of, oh, I don't have enough leads. I don't have enough meetings. It gets those conversations started with the people you want to talk to. Now, it's not about a pitch. It's about a conversation. Now, everybody thinks of conversations when you're talking or you're online at the same time, or you're on the phone or Zoom at the same time. That's not a conversation. A conversation's when the client is talking about what they care about, what they're interested in. And that is what we call qualification, where we can sense where are they and how do we build up that curiosity into interest, into urgency to get a deal. And these are skills that we need. They're lifelong skills that we need in sales. And then how do we get a deal closed? Yes, anyone can take an order, but what if they don't know how to get it done? You got a new account where you're trying to get a big change done internally. What are the issues? If you're not planning that through, odds are it's not going to get done no matter how much your champion wants it. So winning the complex sales solves that problem for you. Why waste all your time on these false positives or these no decisions? Because they don't pay very well. They pay 0.0. What you want to do is pay a lot. So sign up today. Invest in yourself. You're the asset in sales. Quit waiting for somebody else to approve it or train you. See if you can get it expensed. That should be your first sales obstacle. Your first sales challenge is how do you get your company to pay for it? Just go down, tell your manager you want to do this. I put a little example email in the show notes right below here. Just swipe up and take a look at that. And if they won't, you got to ask yourself, why won't you? Why won't you? Oh, it takes time. Well, you work all day.
You're working wrong all day.
Why not improve that? There's the time right there. Oh, the money, Brian. It's money. Well, you make more money if you become better in sales. And Start the Conversation pays for itself the first week because you're going to get at least 2 meetings Just learning from the very basics of it. Closing the Complex Sale will pay for itself 100 times over. Students in it tell me it's the best money they ever spent because they now have control over their deals. And it doesn't end.
Some give up.
Some give up after they win their first deal and they think they've got enough. No, come back. Come back. Keep going. You can get even bigger deals, more deals, faster deals. That's what it's all about. Sign up today. Put the excuses away. Yeah, excuses feel good, but they're expensive. Excuse— you know what the excuses are costing you? Tens, 50, maybe a couple hundred thousand dollars a year in lost income. Really?
Yeah.
The difference between where you are today— let's say you're making $150,000. Decent, decent income. But you know, there's other people in your industry making $300K, $400K, $500K. Well, how are you going to do that? You all think it's just about getting a better job, a better territory, a better manager. They can help. Go do that.
Then what happens?
It's still you there with those leads, trying to close those deals and Do you have the game? Few people do. Everyone thinks they do. Why not prove it? The market tells you what you're worth. Accept it. Now become better. And the way to become better is to improve every day. Really make a daily routine of learning and developing because it's not at the knowledge level. You have to become unconsciously competent at these skills, which takes time, repetition, and emotion. And I show you how to do it, how I did it, how I've taught hundreds of people to do it. But you have to want to because I can't force you. A lot of people wish I could. So do I, but I can't. So sign up today. We'll see you next time.
