THE SECRET TO COMPETING AND WINNING IN THE TOUGHEST MARKETS

Hey, we got a great one for you today. Another great sales rep got recommended onto the show, and we happen to have a previous boss in common. Quite a time span between that though. So, we have a similar approach to selling. And what I really liked about this interview today was that the person has come up with their process, their paradigm of the world. And why is this so important? So many of us have it in our head And we remember it after we need it. We fall right into the same traps over and over again. We kind of take some responsibility, but we don't understand the whole game that we're playing. We're reacting, and that's the natural, that's the default. What we have to do in the large complex sale is be proactive, lead the deal. And today, The kind of— we talk about it like a project manager of the deal, where you are responsible for getting the deal done. Yes, you can have a champion. Yes, they can need it, want it, and afford it. But the default is for it to get stuck. And we don't face that until after we have to, instead of from the very beginning anticipating how It's going to get stuck and how to keep it moving. I think you're going to enjoy this interview. He's a great person, great salesperson, lots of success, lots of lessons in this episode. Before we dive in, check out our friends over at Covideo. Video email is crushing it. It is a superpower to be added to many of your superpowers, being able to stay in touch And have them see who you are and how much you care helps build trust, sincerity, identity, and relationships, which are critical in closing these deals. Go to covideo.com. Tell them you heard about it on the podcast. If nothing else, grab and consume their content. They've got the best content out there on how to use video in your sales process.

Here we go. Hey Steve, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Thanks for having me, Brian. Thanks for having me. Um, so I'm from the UK, if you can't already tell. Um, I'm an IT security sales guy, uh, by profession. Been in that space for about, uh, oh no, selling for 16 years, IT security for 12. Um, started off in reseller land for a bunch of years and then for The last part have been focused mostly on complex IT security selling that requires kind of program-level investment.

Well, with all the stuff in security, sounds like a pretty easy sale today, isn't it?

You'd like to think so. You're pushing my buttons already. Yeah, I've had a habit of choosing technology that needs a lot of evangelizing. Yeah, and that's straightforward.

And why'd you pick security, or did it pick you?

It's me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm at a crossroads of different selling opportunities, and this one just kind of made sense. It was the company— small companies, nice leader— had zero expertise in that space but felt it could be An interesting ride. And yeah, not— haven't looked back since.

And what have you learned along the way? Because security, it's highly competitive. I sold security for a long time. Keyword-focused, people think they're covered, or they'd be calling you, right? So how do you get them curious about what you do and how you do it differently?

Well, there's obviously the marketing and messaging piece, which sits outside of my domain, but I do have some input. It is a crowded space. You just need to take a look at Allegiant Cyber, Momentum Cyber, take a look at how many vendors are in that space, how much private equity and venture capital there is. And it's obviously becoming more and more relevant to the everyday person as they recognize privacy and security is important. Investments in security continue to rise, 12% to 15% increase in budget year on year. But more tools don't necessarily make you more secure. In actual fact, it's having the opposite effect. When you're trying to get attention, I guess you need to think of almost like a hierarchy of needs and choose technology that sits higher up that stack. You don't want to be selling widgets and competing for dollars unless that's your kind of gig. For me, being an evangelical kind of complex sales guy, I wanted to find something kind of sits at the top of the pyramid, albeit it's earlier stage and a smaller piece of the pie.

Yeah. And sounds like you've got your own process, your own style, your own— what I like— documented view of sales.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, what I like about that is just very few people do that, and it is kind of one of the few distinctions I've seen between the people who can have repeated success versus kind of a one-hit wonder, like much like in music where you got, you know, yeah, a song happens to come out at the right time, has the right beat, And go. But complex selling has a lot of the same patterns almost independent of what you're selling.

Yeah, you're right. I mean, selling is an art and a science, right? And my academic path took me down both simultaneously. I picked design and I picked math and I picked physics. And that seems to have served me quite well if I think about where I apply my skills in the domain of complex IT sales, it is leveraging quality of content that's visually engaging, has depth, is consultative, whilst also paying homage to the science of selling and the need for people to be able to justify with logic. So I think those worlds kind of came together, and it wasn't by design. I thought I was going to be a um, a space engineer or an aeronautical engineer.

That didn't work out. No, not many openings for that either. Exactly.

I don't know, maybe I should be knocking on Elon's door these days. But, um, yeah, so in terms of process, um, I mean, one thing to say, Brian, and, um, in speaking to Kevin Thiele that you've had on your show previously, we kind of mentioned this as well. Um, I, I've been referred by leaders as the purple squirrel. Like, they're very hard to find, very hard to replicate salesperson. But if only we could, we'd have a more predictable, reliable sales team. So the amount of times I've been evaluated, you know, through various analysis tools or just people trying to pick my brain and understand my process, I think it's a bit of a fool's errand really to understand how freaks perform. Because one, they don't know how they perform.

True.

And they will tell you what they think it is, but it isn't always what it is. And some of the stuff they do, by the very nature of who they are, is unrepeatable, not easily at least. So there are systems and processes and/or attributes, but me telling you what attributes you need doesn't mean you're going to have them.

Or be able to learn them.

Yeah, so it's a tricky one. So what I try, I want to avoid being either dogmatic or dictating on what I think complex selling is. But for me, it's a set of attributes that have worked well for me.

True. But there is, you know, a typical process, there's the administrative process, Once they decide they want to buy something.

Yeah.

That's not identical between companies, but similar. And then there's why people change. That, that's a little bit fluffy. You know, some people change out of pain, others out of desire, but usually for personal wins above anything else. And when did you start writing these things down, as opposed to just going from repetition and gut feel, and I know how to do this?

That's a good question. I've probably had about 4 or 5 jumping-off points in my career, where I could say, in reflection, I started to develop my style. But initially, it was subconscious, right? So my first move, the first kind of material movement to saying, okay, I can do this, was probably a year and a half into my first job that we spoke about this, you know, the IT security reseller in London, when for the first year, nothing was clicking. And then I kind of gave in to who I am and let me start to drive the process versus the this is how you should do it. These are, you know, in reseller land, you've got to know 15, 20 different technologies, know enough to get people's attention.

Yeah.

And then bring in either the vendor sales rep or bring in your pre-sales guy. So you're supposed to be a bit of a jack of all trades and that wasn't working for me. So I quickly realized I needed to have subject matter expertise. I needed to wow people with, depth of in how I articulate and how I provide content and how I present a business. I needed to have high accountability as in overpromise. Sorry. So overdeliver, underpromise.

Promise.

Yeah. Be there for them, solve problems when, you know, their house is burning. And then I think all of that kind of materialized into belief. Like, you know, I can do this. Those attributes whilst are not necessarily common amongst my peers, high accountability, high commitment to quality content. And what I mean by content, I mean written, oral, anything and everything that presents you and the brand and the technology. And a subject matter expertise, that kind of blend for me really works. And it kind of set me on a path to being perhaps a bit cerebral at times, but that gave my customers confidence that I knew what I was talking about. And I was curious enough to understand what their problems were. And I would insatiably ask questions, but in a way which was consultative versus just naive.

Well, do you think that comes from like the math science background where, you know, to learn those things, you got to repeat them, do exercises, Take tests, come up with formulas, algorithms, heuristics. And sales is a heuristic. It's not identical every time, but it is similar every time.

There's definitely patterns, isn't it? That's what I guess we say. Yeah, I think so. I think— I don't know about you, but I think selling is a matter of like, constant and continuous error correction and learning, right? The best salespeople I know will say, will have confidence, they may even have a little bit of arrogance, but they accept there is more they don't know than what they do know in every sales opportunity, every lost deal, every won deal, every interaction. I mean, every presentation, is an opportunity to learn, tweak, adjust, do it better next time. And I think if you can institute that as a formula, which is I will learn from every interaction, well, skill compounds. Skill and quality compound and success compounds. So I guess that's what I've seen in most successful people is they just thirst for learning, developing, and sharpening the saw.

And I think the key part of it to learn it, you got to write it down. True.

Yeah, yeah.

Because what's the likelihood you're going to fall into that identical trap again?

Very true. Very true.

Because like you have 21 rules and you can't memorize, maybe you can over a period of time, but certainly not in a day. And are you going to know those rules when you need them, or after you learn them again? Yeah.

And then there's journaling, right? There's either journaling, or there's just general— the tradition of learning, writing things down. And more importantly, not only writing them down, but then teaching them, reflecting them.

Yeah. And teaching them. Yeah. Have you had that opportunity in your career to kind of teach those?

I have. I have. Again, going back to this kind of like psychoanalysis of me, like, who is he? What does he do? How does he do it? What's the magic so we can repeat? My career has allowed me the opportunity to, you know, share my learnings. But again, the problem is, I'd say through my evolution as a sales guy, haven't always understood what they are and/or If you share your— you can easily overwhelm another sales individual or sales team by going, I've done it this way, 15 steps. It's, you know, this deep, it's this wide. I've done these things. We had 50 meetings. I've done a sequence of events. I've mapped it all out. You know, you can go through that and go, wow, I can't do that. So then that doesn't help, right? Because that's just showing off. So I've had a bit of that showing off by accident and not having that effect on others. And in other instances, maybe dropping one idea that they were able to own, shape, and start to bring into how they engage with their customers.

And that is how they— how to both teach and learn. You can't learn 21 things at once. You pick one, Maybe something that they're already in active pain about, something that's getting in their way of a particular deal or that they see repeating. Well, what I really keyed in on is when you talked about confidence, because sales has this weird paradox that when you're in front of a client, confidence is what you want. When you're not in front of a client, you want to be pulling apart and being as insecure as possible about the deal.

Yes.

So that you'll see the things that you should be seeing.

Yes, I love that. That is great, Brian. That's that combination between confidence and confident vulnerability, that kind of assumption that things are going to go to pot, that you've missed something, that both curiosity And anxiety, if you can manage it. Right.

And I had a great CEO who, before we go into a meeting, you know, we had dinner the night before, and then we got breakfast the day of. And I thought, this guy is going to be shaking in front of these people. He's asking every question. He's, he's gone through the slides 3 times. But then when we're in front of the client, he was a different person.

Nice.

You know, he was just poised. And then afterwards, he was like, what did I do wrong? What do you think didn't connect? What could I have learned better? So it was that insecurity, curiosity in front of the client, 100% confidence, and after reflecting on it so he could do it better next time.

It is a— it's a difficult dance though, right? Because you do One, you want to give your leadership confidence in yourself. Therefore, you've got to have a level of confidence that they can tap into. They don't want to feel your nerves. At the same time, you want to be vulnerable enough and self-reflective enough such that people are willing to give you feedback. And then they need to know that you absorb it, that you want the feedback, you can grok it, and you can work out How— and then if you can show them that you've— that you're learning, you're adapting, you're error correcting, then people willing to give you more feedback when they can see it's having an effect. Yeah, sometimes that's difficult for people to, one, ask for critical feedback, and then to do something about it.

Right, and not be offended by it.

Yeah.

What were some of the kind of the pivot points in your career?

So that, that, that, um, uh, being in this IT reseller was, I guess, the, the foundational start. There, there are a couple of others. I did write a couple of notes, just make sure I don't forget them. I, I would say that there were a couple more. First one is really understanding the value of a champion. And this happened when I was at a company called Veracode. It sells application security. We're selling to one of the tier 1 banks. And it's a hard sell. It was very evangelical. It's a change program. It's just hard. There wasn't a budget typically on the doors we were knocking. But then everything changed for me once I found someone who both recognized the problem within the business, had the competence to describe that problem to the various stakeholders, could then understand our proposition enough, could sell it internally, could then start to position a journey of spend, and then had high ambition to then go execute on that ambition. So to find someone who can get the message, who can sell the message, and who can deliver, wow. I found this individual. I sold $30 to $40 million to that one account over the course of a few years because of this one person.

Yeah.

And the team he built around him. I'm like, that is hard to find. It's incredibly hard to find. And champions don't put their hands up. They typically don't talk much. They're behind the scenes. They can be hard to deal with. They can be quite defensive. But once you tap into a need that they've recognized, they're willing to champion, Wow, things light up.

Yeah. Did you have any particular acid test to determine whether they were a real champion or false champion? Because I'm sure you had lots of deals, very few closed.

Yeah.

And they're all lots of work.

Yep. A champion is hard to define. Now, I've had some false management training. And they define a champion. It's been a few years, so I may forget some of it. So some of this reflection is in hindsight. Honestly, when I kind of stumbled across this individual and fully understood what a champion was, I didn't understand. I hadn't understood beforehand. Now, upon reflection, it is someone who doesn't necessarily speak much, but what they say counts. you just see momentum through their action. You see that they're willing to take the next step instead of me forcing the next step, right? What are we going to do next, a demo? Or can I show you this? I can show you that. They're kind of taking the reins a little bit. And then once you see that the dots are connecting, their actions start to spell it out. So it's all about action and output, not words. Yeah.

And I rarely found that they had the C-level title. They were typically climbers, typically not long-term employees there, but want to make a name for themselves. And I had this acid test. They were never in the presentation room at the beginning.

Okay.

They'd skip that first 20 minutes because they thought it was going to be about the company slides and stuff, or Picture of our building. But they were always there for the last 20 minutes. And when they came in, all heads turned.

I'm dealing with a champion right now. And it's just, it's just very clear that there's, there's an, there's a business acumen that just reeks from this individual. That, you know, people are taking the lead of this individual. people want to impress this individual. Yeah. And, and you can just see it.

You—

the people know. And then you can read off of those people and go, okay, who's actually calling the shots here? Have they got ambition? Have they got certainty in their action? And are they willing to do the hard work and take risk?

Yeah.

So it's great when you get them. It's not often you find them though.

And you probably need that when you have like a new technology that isn't understood, that It's expensive, it requires change and impact to the company.

Yeah, you gotta have some balls.

Yeah. And how about as far as like when you started doing big deals, what were the kind of distinctions? Because it's a different skill set than either smaller deals or channel deals where there's already awareness of the problem.

Well, I think The first hurdle is of course getting the client's attention and demonstrating that you're the real deal, both the technology, the company, and you. And again, I go back to being, you know, high quality content, subject matter expert, demonstrate thought leadership, demonstrate strategy, demonstrate a vision, sell them a story, you know, give them something to to latch onto, a transformation that they find compelling. So that's all the story arc, and that's the trailer, it's the movie, it's getting people excited about what they're about to see and what they can be involved in. But that's the smallest part of selling to big companies and doing complex deals. The biggest part for me is the leadership needed to manage the sales cycle. And what I mean by leadership is like you need to lead the client and you need to lead your organization because you're gonna have to produce RFIs that no one wants to do, RFPs no one wants to do. You know, you're gonna need to herd some sheep, right? You're gonna have to bring people together and create solutions because quite often when you do the biggest deals, your clients are asking you to do things you can't do or they're at the cusp of you being able to do it.

On the edge, yeah.

And asking people to do things that are uncomfortable, across functions and multidiscipline is very hard. And herding the sheep, and I don't mean that derogatory, just like herding people together is incredibly challenging. But if you can do that and you can manage the client, and then most importantly, you could be seen as the accountable, trusted, almost project manager of the deal. You need to be the project manager. You need to understand the sequence of events, understand all the stakeholders in their business, yours, and be seen as the person who's quarterbacking the entire effort. That's how big deals happen. Unless you're lucky and someone's had a breach and they're like, we need $5 million of this thing, they've already decided, then that's just going to happen.

Right, because too many people act like the receiver of the big deal, where they're out in the football field waiting for the ball to hit— the deal to hit them when the customer's ready. Well, you've got to kind of be that project manager. I like that title because You have your champion, but they may still have their limits as far as how do they know how to do it economically. A lot of champions just say, tell their boss, this makes perfect sense, we need this, can't live without it. And the manager goes, why? And they, well, this bad thing could happen that I can't articulate to you.

I'll give you an example. You might have a fantastic champion that can organize through the initial stakeholder, you know, socializing advocacy piece, get people warmed up. Maybe they have to go RFI, RFP thereafter because they've got to follow due process. At some point, as you draw closer to even being selected, there's still a ton of work. In big clients, there might be, you know, there's a client I was speaking to just yesterday. He said, We need to get sourcing approval. Once we have sourcing approval, they've got a 56-step process sourcing, right? And we've got—

I thought 21 was too much.

And we've got 3 deal approval boards and it's these stakeholders and you're like, you've got to have patience. You've got to have a low time preference. You've got to be comfortable taking your time while simultaneously having urgency. And that's hard. That's hard to do both. Patient and urgent is challenging.

And how do you stay on top of this? Because a lot of reps don't own that part. They don't own the trailer, they own the, this is who we are, this is why we're better, this is how it works, as opposed to this is the journey that you need to go from to, and here's the elements of it, and here's why You need to do it and why with us?

I think you need to own that. I mean, in today's day and age, unless you're selling something that's commodity, anything that's changed, where you're going to find the biggest bucks, right? Any kind of change program where you're talking multimillion-dollar opportunities, you need to describe the maturity path a client is going to go on. So not only this is how you're going to close the deal, which in its own right, might be complicated. But then give them confidence they can describe internally the maturity path for said technology. Like, how are we going to deploy, implement, advocate, socialize, and get people using said technology? It might be a one-to-many technology. It might be a centralized tool. But nonetheless, new tools come with a lot of resistance because, at least in security, there's so many tools. They're overwhelmed with data and overwhelmed with tooling. The last thing they want to buy is another widget. So how do you describe to them that your technology is going to solve some of that complexity and then give them a path to go on and make it convincing that you've been there, you've done it? And some of that comes from having a world-class services organization. I think more and more sales at IT companies are leaning in on customer success because that's, that's the journey, isn't it? And if you have people that can do it and they can articulate well, They're some of the best assets in the sales process.

Yeah. And what do you wish you learned a lot earlier in your career that either took a while to get, or you ignored, or you just wish, man, I wish I, the first 2 years I knew this?

Brian, I would say it's less about learning, it's more about having taken more risks.

Yeah.

Skill and capability compound. And I wish I was more daring earlier. I'm not dissatisfied with the progress I've made. I took 3 years out of IT security to go and do my own entrepreneurial thing. I'm back in IT security. I think that speaks a bunch. But I have an appetite for risk, but I'm also risk-averse and would take a long time. I would deliberate for too long on ideas that I should just go do this. And I wish earlier in my career, early in my life, generally, I would have taken more risks, I would have been more entrepreneurial, didn't wait until I was 35, 36 to give it a go. Why didn't I start taking risks at 20? So they're the kind of lessons I'm giving back to my daughters. Take more risks early whilst you can.

Yeah, I agree with that.

Cool.

Hey, appreciate your time today. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

Probably LinkedIn. Uh, that's, that's the best bet. I've got a website, but it's not relevant to this conversation. So Steve Katasi on LinkedIn, you can find me there.

This coming up with your own process, defining your game, how your sale goes down, is something that people typically don't really attribute to later in their career. They come up with checklists, and you see these on LinkedIn all the time, BANT and MedPIC, and they're just checklists. They're not a process. They're elements. They're an ingredient list in a deal. And yes, you should have them, but having them is just a checklist, right? It doesn't mean you know where you're going. It doesn't mean you know how to get there. It doesn't mean if you misinterpreted it, what you do. The game of sales is so misunderstood. Too many people think it's all about charm and personality and dynamics and likability. And that's part of it. The problem is everyone thinks that their part of it is the whole thing. The whole thing is the whole thing. And then people overcomplicate it because you have to pick out a thread Between where you are and where you want to go and how to get there. And if you don't write this down, if you don't analyze it, if you don't think about it constantly and make yourself aware of it, you end up turning it into platitudes. Oh, it's all about relationships. It's about value. Thank you. That tells me nothing. It's a platitude. All that does is make you feel better And the other person thinks that they don't know enough. In sales, you've got to understand how to drive that project, how to get the pieces together, in what order, and what is needed to get it to the next stage. We think our customers know. And if they're reordering something, yeah, they do know. Or they've been— you're on the list of 50 products. They know. Okay, I get that. But usually we're selling into new accounts. We're selling into situations where they don't like spending money. They don't like change. They're going to put their name and their career on this decision. If it works out, great. Doesn't work out, not so great. And we have to understand all of those things and give them both direction and the ammo that they need to justify this, to get it through the process. And, you know, this is what would happen when I do training on site. At the beginning, I would kind of talk through a couple of their deals, and then I'd ask them to draw their deal. Well, tell me what the deal looks like. And they go, what do you mean? Like, okay, so you have a meeting. Okay, write that down. First meeting. Then what happens? Oh, well, we might have a presentation or a demo. And then what happens? Oh, we might have a proof of concept. And then what happens? Hopefully, they buy. And what if they don't buy? Then we try and end run, go to the leader. And it was all this MacGyver-type stuff. Give me a scenario and I'll tell you what to do. Well, open your CRM. There's hopefully tens or hundreds of scenarios in there. What are you going to do? If you don't know that process to guide them through and what to do at each step and how to keep direction and momentum and control, you're reacting. You're an order taker. I'm sorry, I don't mean that as a pejorative. I just mean it as reality. And how do you become great at selling? You have to understand the whole game. Winning the Complex Sale is the course that teaches you that. It gives you not only the game board of what to do, but how to do it, in what order to do it. Gives you hundreds of one-on-ones and real deals and scenarios and case studies. And then office hours that are all recorded for the last 3 years are in there. So that's like 75 hours of office hours in there, you know, labeled specifically about the topics that we cared about and discussed. And the whole idea is how to get you great at winning the complex sale. And that's what you're doing. The other course, Start the Conversation, Get the Meeting, It's all about how do you start a conversation with strangers and turn it into a business discussion. And this is probably the most misunderstood characteristic of the sales process because we all think it's about the pitch, the elevator pitch. Get to the point immediately. Build value consistently. Shut the fuck up. It's about them. If you're talking about you and your product without them asking, they don't care. It's a commercial. It's push. It's not pull. It's not, I'm interested. It's, I have to suffer through this. Start the Conversation, Get the Meeting teaches you how to be empathetic about building a conversation about the client, That discovers the need for your product, which is real selling, not pitching, not value proposition, not insights. Okay, what you have to do is get into where they are and start where they are. Are they interested or are they just curious? Or do they— are they even aware of the problem that they have that you solve? Well, they have it. Well, how many problems do you have? I have infinite number of problems. I only want to face a few of them at a time and fix even less. But the ones that I am torn about, that kind of pop up, that go from latent to active, I got to fix that. Go to b2brevenue.com. Check it out. I've got an overview of the courses on the YouTube channel. It comes right up. Just go to the YouTube channel. The first one gives an overview of how the LMS, learning management system, works, how to sign up. And then the second one, which is right next to it, and the link is in the description, of which course is best for you. It's a 20-minute video about how the courses apply, who do they apply to, who gets the most out of it. And the key is if you can become a self-learner. Now, this is what's critical, I think, today and moving forward. You know, a self-learner is somebody who can be exposed to information, participate, make up their own homework, apply it, come back with questions, participate, and learn that way. Not everyone wants to. I think everyone can because we're used to learning by— we're forced to go on a school bus, sit in a room, listen to someone talk for 45 minutes, a bell rings, we move to the next room where we listen to someone else talk for 45 minutes, we get tested. We're forced to learn. Now, if that's the only way you learn, life is going to be challenging because that situation is both expensive, time-consuming, and the likelihood that you're learning what you care about is really low. Today, you can learn what you need when you need it on your time zone, but you have to kind of own it. Someone isn't Sitting down with you, giving you homework, taking a test. Your test in sales is every day. Are you winning deals? That's the test. You can either do the homework and win the deal, or not do the homework and gamble about losing the deal. It's your deal. Nobody can force you to learn this stuff. You have to have that motor, that motivation.

To do it.

And I think what's going to happen in the future is those people who can do that are going to go the furthest instead of the old way where you have to go get a degree so that somebody can say, oh yeah, they passed the test, they know this stuff that's useless, but they know it. And oh, they had fortitude to go through and do that. Okay, so what? Today it's, oh, you want to learn about this thing, this thing that you're selling? Okay, you got YouTube, you got podcasts, you've got online training now. Yeah, you have to do it yourself. Sorry, nobody can parachute in, tell you to get on the school bus and go to the class and listen for 45 minutes. But it doesn't matter because the test is not on paper. The test is, do you win deals? Do you start conversations? Do you get meetings? And you can say, I know it, but that's not the test. The test is, can you apply it? Can you get the meeting? Can you win the deal? That's the test. And if you need to be able to develop this skill, it's not a book. It is— there is knowledge you have to listen to it, understand it, apply it, find the distinctions, ask what am I missing, get feedback, and do it again. That's why the courses are a year instead of one month or one semester. It is about becoming great at it. Commit yourself to becoming great at it. It's not going to be listening to 5-minute tips and tricks. Oh, let's listen to a known felon telling you what worked in the '80s when they were, you know, selling stocks that didn't exist and they were stealing. Okay, if you think that's selling, go do that. Or if you want to learn how to sell big deals, this is the place to do it. Check it out, b2brevenue.com. The link to the videos in the show notes of the podcast on the YouTube channel on my LinkedIn profile, on the website b2brevenue.com. It's everywhere. Thanks for listening. Tell a friend about the show. Check out the other podcasts, Sales Questions, Brutally Honest Answers, the B2B Revenue Leadership Show, and the Sales Leadership Show.

We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening.