THE SECRET TO SELLING TOP DOWN IN B2B ENTERPRISE SALES AND SELLING

How do you approach a prospective company? You have a target list and you want to start prospecting into them. Do you approach it from a top-down standpoint, from the leadership down, or do you do it from the user buyer up? That's a classic sales conundrum, and in some cases it doesn't matter.

It doesn't.

But in other cases, it matters dramatically. Let's give you an example. If you're selling Salesforce CRM, do you go top-down or bottom-up? Call salespeople and say, hey, how would you like to spend a couple of extra hours a day documenting every breath you take?

No thanks.

Leadership. Hey, how would you like to have a little bit more insight to what your salespeople are doing all day in case one gets hit by a bus? And someone else needs to take over. Oh yeah, that makes sense. The difference there is dramatic. One, you're hitting the point, the real point, the real reason why people buy versus the marketing reason why people buy. And the other is if you waste your time getting engaged in a sales process that tends to not go your way, uh-oh, you've wasted your time. This is one of the topics we're going to talk about today, and this episode I definitely should charge for. Uh, not only did I enjoy doing it, but it really articulates a lot of the things that I try and share in the podcast and in the courses. And How to do it. So we're going to touch on the how to do it, but we're going to talk a lot about why you're doing it this way. So this is one that you do want to save and listen to often because too many reps— and a lot of it's not your fault, you're pressured to do it— are spending their days doing dumb things as fast as they can so that they can document them. Instead of selling. Our job is to sell. And when you have an SVP on the podcast who's selling and working with reps, teaching them how to get into these accounts, spending the time prospecting and developing them, and is recommended to the podcast by those people, I would listen because this is probably in the top 10 best episodes I've ever done. in the coming up on 14 years of this podcast. So, let's get into it. At the end, I'll sum it up. If you want to learn how to prospect this way, start the conversation, get the meetings, the course for you. Here we go. Hey, Lon, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Yeah, sure. Lon Hecht. It's a pleasure to meet you. I've been in sales for going on 30 years now. Done everything from sales to sales leadership. Started off in pharmaceuticals, went into med device, went into software, and then I've gotten into selling large enterprise deals to health plans and health systems. So tech-enabled type of services.

Wow. And why sales for you?

You know, growing up, my father was in sales and I used to travel around the country and I used to go with him. He used to do business opportunity shows and I would actually go with him. So I just learned and picked it up and it was something that I just knew I was good at. I never really put a lot of thought into it. I just kind of felt like it was natural for me to progress into this.

Yeah. And did you always feel at home doing it?

Always, always felt at home. It just always felt right for me. Yeah.

And what motivates you as a person?

Well, I think that's changed over time. When I was younger, it was getting established and the wins and the money and everything like that. And now it's much different. Now it's more about helping other people come along in their journey. Really teaching what I know, helping people become the best versions of themselves, and really helping companies. I like to help early-stage companies. I'm with a large company now, but I tend to be very entrepreneurial, and I like to help early-stage companies kind of find their footing and really grow. And healthcare has really been a passion area for me. So it's how can I serve as many people as possible and how can I really improve healthcare overall?

But I got to believe that healthcare is pretty complex and difficult, isn't it?

It's incredibly complex and difficult. And I think what most people think would be logical is absolutely not the case when you actually get to the level that I'm in and the depth that I get to. The things that would make sense to most people don't necessarily make sense to a health plan executive or to a hospital executive.

So yeah, let's dig into that because I think a lot of people fall into the conventional logic when what really works is very different.

Right, right. So, yeah, to give you an example. So let's take health plan side of the business. You know, most people think that health plans, let's say a commercial health plan, and those are the ones that are serving typically employees and others. They just assume that health plan wants to do everything that they can to reduce their costs, right? And costs are important. But at the same time, if you can— if you think about a dollar of premium, a health plan is able to keep about $0.85 of that dollar. So do they want that dollar to be as small as it can be, or do they want it to be as big as it can be? If I'm spending $100 million, or let's say $1 billion in claims costs a year, and I get 15% of that, that's great. Do I really want it to drop down to $800 million where I get 15% of that? That's not as good for the bottom line. So although the intentions are very positive, there are just things that are kind of different than you would expect, right? So you have to go and you have to understand their business very closely.

And who's making this decision or how's the decision get made at this level?

Okay, so it really depends. I'm selling things that are tens of millions, hundreds of millions, even north of $1 billion. So they're very big deals. So there can be decision by committee, but also it can be the line of business head that makes that decision overall. So it really depends on what the audience is selling, who makes that decision. But there's a lot of committee decisions made in health plans, especially on that commercial insurance side of things. But I'm doing a lot more in Medicare Advantage and places like that. So typically you might find that your line of business owner, which could be a president or an SVP of government markets, they are the ones that own that P&L authority.

Mm-hmm.

So they tend to be the ones that make those decisions. But they want everybody to line up. It's very important that others in the organization feel comfortable with the decisions they're making too.

But are they the entry point or is the entry point HR?

If you're smart, they're the entry point.

Tell us why.

Okay. Because just like anything else, you want to go as high as you typically can. It doesn't always mean when you're reaching out, everybody says, I want to sell at the, you know, at the C whatever level that is. And I think that's true. You want to try and be there, but they're not always the ones that are going to get into the nitty-gritty. So it's important to start there, but sometimes you want to talk to them, give them an understanding of what you do, and have them put you with someone else that can make those decisions and you keep them informed and bring them along as a part of the process. If you start low, you'll never get to that level. And that's where you really fall into the buying by committee and where, you know, the whole tail wagging the dog and you're just not making any progress. And I think that's a big mistake a lot of folks make is they get engaged in these conversations and they feel really good about themselves because they're having a lot of great conversations. But let's be honest, those conversations are never gonna go anywhere. Right? So you need to make sure you, you've got the right folks dialed up to be able to have those decisions made.

And it's not gonna go anywhere because the competitor is talking to that SVP of that division. Is that true? Is that the reason?

Well, so most of the time I actually find the competitors are the ones that are tied up in that low-level decision conversation, right? And that's a good place for them to be. Out of your way. Right, out of— exactly. So I want to have that conversation at a much higher level with them, and I will fit into their buying construct, right? If it's a decision by committee, I'll fall into that decision by committee, but I want to make sure that I'm wired in with somebody that can actually make a decision and steer a decision because that's critically important.

Because the committee is kind of an illusion or a front.

It can be, right? I mean, so if we're getting into the committee buying decision now, I try to do things that are outside of an RFP process. There's not a lot of RFP in what I do. Although in healthcare, there, there is a lot of RFP, just not for what I specifically am selling. So I try to be around that. So if you are somebody that's bringing something to a health plan or a health system, and you're helping them build that RFP out, that's a good thing. But if you're not that person, and somebody else did that, that's a really bad place to be. So you have to somehow go in there and change that buying criteria on the fly. to be more aligned with what you bring to the table, or else it's lost. Yeah.

And for that executive, what's their criteria? What do they— do they care?

It depends. So it really depends on what we're talking about. If we're talking about a lower-level commodity item or something, no, they don't really care, right? They want somebody else to make that decision. But what we're selling is very high value, and very costly and makes a really big difference for them. So these are the kind of decisions that can get an executive in hot water if they're not making the right decisions. So they care a lot. And it's really important as a salesperson or as a sales leader that I'm challenging that person that's making the buying decision to really think about the things that are important there. Now, it's not always comfortable as a salesperson to push and have people, you know, sometimes you have to ask hard questions, right? And you need people to change their mindset on it. And it's really important. they will respect that because at the end of the day, I want to make sure they're making a decision they feel comfortable with, but is going to be job security for them too, right? When you're making a $200 million decision or a half a billion dollar decision or north, those are decisions that can lose people jobs if you don't make the right decision. So I take it very seriously that I want to make sure that they fully understand what the decision is that they're making and that they're thinking about it from the, from the right angles.

And when you first get in touch with them, they already have this frame in mind, their criteria or their values or what's important to them. Is that true or?

Well, it depends on what we're talking about. With what I'm doing, I'm selling something that's pretty innovative. It's new. It's not something they know.

They don't know about it.

They don't really know about it. So I need to kind of, I need them to understand that there's an option out there for them, but it's very different from what they're used to doing right now. So when I'm reaching out to them, they don't have a preconceived idea of what it would look like. I need to get them to understand there's a different option out there for them and it's a really viable option. But at the same time, what we're selling is at such a high level that I don't want a lot of lower-level folks brought into the decision-making because when you bring some lower-level folks in, I don't mean it in a bad way, but it's like they want to ask questions about what does this mean for my job and what does this mean for my job security and everything like that. I'm trying to talk about a decision that's, you know, that's going to move stock price, right, for them. Like, these are really important decisions that they're gonna make. So having a bunch of people in there that might be like, I wanna sabotage this because I don't know if this works out well for me, probably not the right thing. So I have to go high and I need to keep that conversation at a high level until everybody's bought in, and then we can start talking to other folks about it.

But how do you do that? I mean, that's— I think it's ideal, and clearly you've done it.

Okay. So, so when you look at like, I've been around long enough that I know really what my core values are, right? And authenticity is a big one. So my customers or prospects, they know when they talk to me, they're getting the facts. I'm not, I'm not gonna tell them what they want to hear. I'm gonna let them make a really good decision on there. So, you know, I wanna bring everything to their attention and help them kind of figure out what the right decision is to be made. So when it comes to how do we keep people out of a buying process that are going to muddy the waters, I think it's very important that I'm transparent upfront with them and I say, listen, these are conversations that are going to have a huge impact for you as an organization. But we want to be smart about who we invite into these conversations early on because you want to maintain that control and you want to maintain that narrative in your organization. If people start hearing about these conversations we're having now, That's when people start, you know, making like stories and new narratives up and everything that's just not even appropriate for what's going on. So I want to be upfront with that executive and let them know that let's have this conversation with a small group. And then if it makes sense, let's start bringing in the right people at that time. I'll follow your lead, but it's smart for us to be thinking about it that way. And keep in mind, most salespeople don't have the guts to have that conversation, right?

It's the opposite.

You have to. But you have to have that conversation or you're never going to get anywhere.

Yeah, because I think most reps talk to the person they're most comfortable with instead of the most influential.

Right. But we don't get paid by having as many conversations.

No, we don't.

Wouldn't that be nice? We get paid by having the right conversations. And some, like, I mean, look, this is really detailed what I'm getting into and what I do. But, you know, it's not the one that speaks the most wins. It's the one that resonates the most and helps them understand how it's going to impact their business the most.

And did someone teach you this or is this something you learned trial and error?

So I've done a lot of the sales trainings that other folks have done, but a lot of this has been trial and error. I mean, I, you know, I'm 50. I started selling when I was 22 years old. I mean, actually, I started selling when I was in high school, Wilson Suede and Leather and all these other ones, little contests they used to have. So But it's trial and error over time and you start to learn the things that kind of work. I kind of feel like a good salesperson is almost like a good running back, right? You get to the line and you have field vision and you know where your blockers are and you know which ways to move. And that takes time to really get comfortable with and learn, but it's trial and error. Yeah.

And how have you handled when it does come out RFP or RFI and it's the first you've heard of it? Do you bother or do you pass?

So these deals are so big, I would never not pay attention to a deal because there's a really finite audience. I'm not selling B2B software where I can call, you know, hundreds of thousands of millions of businesses, right? There are a certain amount of payers that are the size that matter. And when I say payer, I mean health plan. So if I get that information, I, first of all, I have a really strong network. Right? So I know people in most of these organizations, so I can really backchannel and understand what's going on. So, you know, they always want to push you to the person that's leading the procurement, and I will play that part. I will go there and I will get involved and I will listen and I will do all those kind of things. But I do want to understand what's going on behind the scenes. And if I look at those decision-making criteria and they are, first of all, I don't think they're right. Second of all, I don't think they're going to match up with what we're doing. I know I'm dead, right? I have to change that. And I know everybody says, well, if you go around me, this thing's gonna fall apart. Well, I have to be honest with myself and say, this, this isn't going anywhere anyway, right? So I have to reach out and I need to go high level and I need to change some buying criteria and I'll do that. And it's a risk that I'm willing to take. But I can't just walk into a procurement where I'm not in line with other things and, and think I'm gonna win that. That just, Poor logic.

Well, let's talk about your network. How have you built this network over time?

So I think I remember when I was in college, I read a book, trying to think of the guy's name. I think it was Harvey Mackay, How to Swim with the Sharks Without Getting Eaten Alive, if you remember that one. And it's all about, it's about digging your well before you need it, before you're thirsty, right? So over the years, I've known a lot of different people and I've worked at a lot of companies and I've worked with a lot of execs. I'm really good about, you know, LinkedIn and making those connections, but that's just the surface level stuff, right? I need to, I need to follow up at a regular cadence with these folks. I need them to understand what I'm doing. I need to look out for them and see interesting things that are gonna matter to their business and bring that to their attention. So I wanna make myself a valuable resource to these folks no matter what. I may never end up doing business with, you know, 98% of these folks. But it's an important amount. It's, it's important time that's invested upfront to be able to do that. So I always want to be somebody that's a connector, right? If I'm in there and I'm talking to somebody at a health plan and they have other needs, let me connect them with the other folks that I know that are going to be helpful to them and get them right to the top, right? You know, they want to— there's something that's an important need for them. I'm not going to connect them with a salesperson. I want to connect them with the CEO of a business over here. that can really talk their language and can help them and make them successful. So I invest a lot in these relationships. I try not to ask a lot, but there are times that I'm gonna need to ask. And that's why you dig your well before you're thirsty.

Because most people dig the well when they are thirsty.

And it's obvious. It's so obvious, right? Yes. How many LinkedIn outreaches do you get a day? I can't even tell you how many I get a day. And it's like, hey, I just wanna interact with you. Okay, I accept that invite. And then all of a sudden there's a sales blurb right next. And it's like, that's not how it works. If you want to engage with me for like a month or 2 or 3 and then do it, invest a little time in me right before you go and do that because I'm never going to respond the other way.

Maybe do something for you.

Exactly. Invest, invest in that relationship.

Yeah.

Do you find that salespeople today have a hard time with that concept?

Yes, I think there's instant gratification. And I, you know, everybody wants instant gratification. I'm not gonna lie to you and tell you that I don't wanna just pick up the phone and get a, you know, $200 million deal and it's done, right?

No.

But that's just not how it works. So yeah, you have to do it. So, and I do find that newer salespeople are looking for that easy, easy kill and it doesn't work that way. Our sales process is 12 to 24 months. Deals can take 36, 48, they can go on a long time, right? I am a rock star if I can get a deal done in 6 months because contracting alone and getting data from a health plan, can you imagine how hard it is to get data? You know all the HIPAA forms you have to fill out. Now imagine if I want to get data on 5 million members, how hard that is. So it's very complicated. It's a long process. You got to invest in the process. But the wins are so sweet. Yeah, they're so sweet.

And does your management understand this?

They do. Look, everybody wants to shorten a sales cycle and I've made a career out of shortening sales cycles and I know ways to be able to do that. Like if I look at myself and I compare myself to most other salespeople in, you know, in my area, what would take them that long to do, I can do in this because I'm very, I have a good sales process and I know how to go into an initial meeting and get myself lined up. for what that sale is gonna look like and get them to buy into what the process looks like. But it's a give and a get, right? If I'm gonna give, I expect to get. And if I'm gonna invest all the time and resources to analyze data and do all these things for you free of charge, then when I come back, I wanna meet with your CFO because that's the person that can make this financial decision. If you're not willing to agree to that upfront, then I don't know that I'm gonna be willing to put all that time and effort into the data analysis. So it's uncomfortable for a lot of people to be there, but You've got to be able to do that stuff. And that comes with time. You get comfortable over time doing it.

Yeah, because most reps feel comfortable as long as they're talking to someone.

Right, right. Exactly. You know, and then they've got, and then they've got their bosses that are calling them and it's like, we haven't talked to this one in a week. Give a call over. And it's once again, the person that talks to the most people the most time does not necessarily win. Sometimes management is hurting your deal. By making you do these kind of things. So you have to be smart as a salesperson and understand that at the end of the day, you're responsible for that deal. You know, if your sales rep, if your manager wants you to make all these calls and you think you're going to hurt that deal, you need to manage up. You need to talk to your manager and say, hey, this is not a good idea and this is why it's not a good idea, and have the confidence in yourself to be able to push back. Managing up is a big part of your job.

And your sales process, is it written down? How do you develop it?

So it's been written down at this point. It's not written down, but folks on my team that, you know what, I have salespeople on my team, they have a pretty good understanding of what the process is. But, you know, it starts with the research and the networking to get in front of the right people. I mean, you know, cold emails. I see so many people that send out, I've sent out 300 emails today and 2, and it's like, good luck with that, right? Good luck. So, you know, it starts with the right research and the right messaging and getting in front of them. And then when you have that first meeting, it's setting up what that whole engagement is gonna look like and getting that buy-in before you do it. And the key is, when I do this, I expect you to do that. And when I've done that, I'm gonna ask you to do this in return. And if you're not gonna do that in return, then we're not— I'm not gonna continue to invest in that relationship. Well, not in the relationship, but in that sales process. You know, we've— we're gonna have to do it sometimes. You have to reshuffle the deck, right? Sometimes you're, and I think people are so afraid to do that. I'm in a deal right now that I have to reshuffle the deck, right? So like we're going and I can tell, and I'm a big believer of if you don't know you're winning, you're losing, right? It's kind of like, it's kind of like Talladega Nights, right? Ricky Bobby, you ain't winning, you losing, right? Just kind of one of those. So if I'm, and I'm in a situation right now where I don't know that I'm winning. I need to reshuffle that deck and I need to make it work so that I know that I am. Because if I don't know that I am, I'm not.

What are some of those signals that you're not winning?

I mean, when you're asking for something and you're not getting something back in a timely manner. Listen, it's the middle of the summer. Everybody gets vacations. There are situations. But let's not convince ourselves that it's the summer and not hearing back for 2 or 3 or 4 weeks is reasonable. It's not reasonable. Right? If, if you reach out to somebody on a Wednesday and then hear back on Friday, sometimes you need to slow your roll a little bit, give them a little time, let them breathe a little bit. But, you know, if you're not getting back what you were promised to get back and all of a sudden the calls aren't getting returned, things like that, it's time. It's probably time to change, change things. You got to change your, your process on that.

And how do you know when you're winning?

You're getting that action, you're getting the response, you're getting the access, you're hearing certain words and certain You, you, it comes with time and there's just a gut, but they're, they're just general buying signals, right? Um, they're asking you questions. The questions go from, we're evaluating you to, it kind of shifts from, we're on 2 separate sides of the table to now we're on the same side of the table, right? And, and I think a big thing that salespeople really need to learn is your job when you go into these meetings is to really work in a way that you're both sitting on the same side of the table from the start. Right. But people are hesitant when you first get into these meetings and they want to understand you. So the sooner you can change that dynamic from I'm in here to present to let's ask some questions and let's share some knowledge so we can kind of get on the same side of the table, the better off you're going to be. And when you see that deal over time shift, that's when you know you're in good shape.

Yeah.

Things can change though. Things can change. So you've always got to be weird. Yeah.

Because you don't sound like a salesperson. You're not acting like a salesperson, and that's your competitive advantage.

Right. It is. And here's the thing. You know, you have to be honest with yourself. You're not going to win every deal. You can want to win every deal. That's great. I want to win every deal. But there are times when you just know what you have is not right for them or it's not a good fit. It's okay to be honest with them and let them know that, right? Because, you know, they're— it's a long-term process with these folks. These folks at health plans and health systems, they change seats all the time. They go from one company to another company or whatever. So it's really important that, you know, that they know that you're a good person and you're looking out for them. If I can't help you, I'm gonna be very quick to let you know that I can't help you. I'm gonna try and put you in touch with somebody that can help you. Or I'll let you know how I can help and how we'd have to change our way of thinking for it to work. But if that's not good, let's put you in touch with somebody that can help you.

Yeah. And do your reps— how long does it take a rep to really get this? Because I'm sure you interview reps and they're gung-ho, knock down the door, hold them by the throat until they give you the order. A lot of people think that's selling as opposed to being on the same side of the table, partners in crime, essentially. Where you're both trying to achieve something together.

It takes time, right? So I have a job or what we do, I can't just hire anyone, right? There are very few people in what I do that are really good. You know, you may have 100 people and there may be like 2 or 3 that really know what they're doing and there may be like 10 or 15 that may hit their quota and then the rest typically don't know what they're doing. So it's hard to find the right person in the first place. But a lot of that is, and I believe you really need to be out there with your salespeople and you need to let them kind of model what good questioning and good behavior looks like. So, you know, yesterday I was out at a meeting and it's like subtle little things, you know, I could tell in our meeting yesterday that, well, I don't want to give too much of it away, you know, just, but I could tell that the decision-making criteria needed to change a little bit and we had, an ace in the hole in something that could be really good. So it was just the right questioning to kind of get that mindset shift. And it happened and it happened very quickly. And I think we're walking out and I think we're gonna end up winning that business. Yeah. Right.

So, and is it typically a competitor that's creating this buying criteria or is it internal misunderstanding or assumptions or conventional logic that—

So It can be a competitor. It's typically not a competitor. I think, I think most of these— I'm not that concerned about the competitors that are out there because once again, there aren't that many people that are that good at this and understand what they're doing. So a lot of this is just preconceived notions of what you think is going to be important. And I think every health plan and every health system wants to think that everything they're buying is a commodity. But they're not, right? And it's really important for me to help them understand that even though all else is equal over here, this one thing is really important and this is why that matters. And that's why you can't be thinking about another direction other than our direction. So, yeah.

So you get them focused on total cost of ownership instead of unit cost?

Well, I think value is a critical one, right? Everybody wants to focus on price, but value is the real key. And I think the other thing is when you look at like a health system or health plan quality, things like that really matter. Like if you're a health plan, if you think about it, health plans really care about their network, the doctors that are in there. Doctors may feel like they're powerless. They're not. And I apologize for all these messages in the background. I really do. It would take me too much time to change the setting right now, so I'll let it go. But, you know, doctors feel like they're powerless. They're not. Their network matters. So if you're going to do something that's going to disrupt their network and it's going to come back to them, that hurts because that's going to impact their patients and quality and different things like that. And plans are judged on quality, and you have to understand what that criteria is and how important it is to them. And if you're looking at like Medicare Advantage, if their quality is higher, they get paid a lot more money from the government. So it's aligning those incentives, right? It's like people look at things and it's like, well, hey, I want to save money over here. Well, that's great, but you could save money. But how about if we changed our thinking a little bit and we improved your revenue too, right? We can reduce your expenses, but we can improve that revenue and that helps tremendously. So it's about trying to get people to think about things a little bit differently.

Yeah. And what lesson that you know now that you wish you knew when you first started in B2B sales?

There are just so many lessons. I don't even know where to begin. But I'll say one that I think is a really big one. And I think it's how important consistency is. And, you know, you find salespeople that want to do all the busy work, to do everything, not to do the hard stuff. But it's the hard stuff that typically is what makes your quota happen. So you have to hit the hard stuff hard and quickly, and you have to block time out for it. So, you know, if you're, if you're listening and you're in sales and it's like you should block off 8 to 11 in the morning for nothing but outreach, that's what you should be doing every single day. And I don't know if that's the right number for you and your business. It depends on how many prospects you have and everything like that. But those hard things, the dialing for dollars is what matters, and you can't back away from that. So I think If I could go back, it would be realizing that I need to focus on the key metrics now and I've got to block that time out no matter what happens and let nothing else get in the way. All the reports and the Salesforce and this and that, all that stuff's important, but this is what's gonna make me money. Yeah.

And it's not dialing and pitching, it's dialing and building a conversation that turns into a relationship.

It really is.

Yeah. And when did that mindset develop? Because that's very different than what most of us are taught.

Right. Actually, it started early. You know, it's funny, I mentioned I did pharma, med device, software, and then into this. And my mindset changed kind of throughout, right? When I was in pharma, I learned how to do presentations with the old, you know, here, here, here with my pen, right? And it was more talking to rather than engaging in conversation. And then medical device, Is where I learned how to street fight. My kid was eating or their kid was eating, and it was one of those. Then all of a sudden, software became let's have a conversation and let's get strategic. That's when I think things started to really change for me. And then when I got into this tech-enabled services and in the health plan world, that's really when things really took hold. So it you know it takes time, and and you have to be patient with yourself as a representative. You know kind of. Building through your career.

And to go through essentially 3 or 4 different industries, you had to be your own sales coach, right? You had to change your approach, your mindset, your skill set.

Absolutely.

Because if you took the med device approach in this job, you'd starve.

Yeah, yeah. This job is like no other, and that's why so few people are good at what we do. But if you're good at what you do here, You won't make a lot of money for a long period of time.

Well, I can see a lot of people falling into the the trap of not doing top down but bottom up, right? Which would be a disaster.

It is.

And to do top down requires a huge skill set.

It does.

Yeah.

It it requires a skill set. It also requires being fearless, right?

You have.

And and you know it's funny. My my son many years ago, he's he's a was a pitcher, right? And he was good. Like, he was a good pitcher, but just the body language and everything like that was off. And his coach had him watch the TED Talk, the— what is it? Fake it till you make it, or fake it until you become it, or whatever. And it's amazing how watching that and just kind of changing your mindset and your body language and everything like that, all of a sudden he started to psych out those hitters, right? And his game transformed. And I think it's the same kind of thing here, right? If you're not that confident, Fake it until you get confident enough to be there. You belong there. And that's the thing people have to understand is, yes, we're salespeople, but we belong here. We're educating a market on something they probably don't know enough about. I know more about what I do in this industry than anybody else does, right? So we— just because they're the CEO of a health plan doesn't mean that they understand my piece as well as they should and could really get some good positive coaching out of it. From from me, and where that is. So believe in yourself and believe that you belong there. That's really critical.

And that's what they want from you.

Right, right.

They want an industry expert telling them what they're missing.

Exactly.

Yeah. It's been a great conversation. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

Probably LinkedIn would be the best place. So Lon Hecht, L-O-N, last name is H-E-C-H-T. Happy to connect.

How was that for an interview? I hope you enjoyed that. Let me sum up my reaction to it and see if you had the same. What I heard was somebody who was really thinking through the whole deal all at once instead of step by step. Too many of us, all we care about is we get the meeting, we get the presentation going, we give a demo, we give a proposal, we negotiate. And then we hope it closes. And the research is pretty clear that that's our major competition because it doesn't close. It goes to no decision. And we think that that is a decision. That's a no. The same place you were before you even called them. Except for now you've invested a lot of time and effort and emotion that could have been spent on a deal that Can close. And when you start thinking through your strategy, and that's what it is, it's a strategy. You can call anybody at the company and see where you get, or you can start building relationships with people. And that word is so overused because everyone thinks a relationship is, oh, I've got them in my LinkedIn network, or I've Got them on my contact list. That's not a relationship. A relationship's when somebody wants to talk with you. And for people to want to talk with you, it's never really about the product. They can call anybody and get the answer for the product. They can probably Google it and get the answer to the product. What— why do they want to talk with you? There's lots of reasons. And a lot of Last week I did a video on creativity over activity. And the sales rep goes, well, give us some examples of creativity. And I explained, I go, if I give you examples of creativity, that's me being creative, not you. So why don't you learn what creativity is and start developing that skill? Because I know what you'll do if I give you examples. I've done this. This is what I hear. Oh, that won't work for me. I tried that. I did it. It didn't work. I didn't say it would work. I'm giving an example of creativity. And I think reps today have it wrong. And I know that's a hypergeneralization, but a lot of people want to be told exactly what to do, essentially a step-by-step script, and they'll go out and do it. Here's the problem with that. That's not selling. That's kind of doing what you're told. Selling is connecting with another person. It takes skill. It's not just reading a script and hitting a cadence button. I know everybody wants to do that because it takes less effort. And it— here's the other reason people want to do it, and the real reason. Is because if it doesn't work, it's not their fault. See, it's still our responsibility, each of us, to win our deals. And even me as a sales coach in the courses, I try and give alternatives and then the issues with all the alternatives, but I really emphasize that it's your decision. Completely. And I do that not to relinquish it from me, but to teach you that at the end of the day, you, you have to choose. That forces you to have to think because it's your income that's attached to that choice. And this is why a lot of reps just go to their manager and say, what should I do here? And the manager says, do this. And then they go and do that. And then if it doesn't work, what do they say? They didn't say, oh, I didn't do it right, or I didn't do it the right way, or I didn't do it with the right person. They say, oh, it didn't work. Well, sales is just one long judgment call after another all day long. And yes, you can kind of hijack or borrow somebody else's judgment, but they don't have the full context that you have. So asking opinions, good. Blindly taking an opinion, not so good. Now, today with this guest, clearly has been burnt by taking different approaches and has figured this out. And nobody told him this. He had to do it on his own. And we're all a little bit on that edge. One of the ways to get around that is to learn from other people. Get that reaction, their judgment. Doesn't mean it's right. Certainly isn't perfect. But debate it. Think through it before you face it. It's that digging the well before you need the water. I get it. We're overwhelmed with wells we should be digging. But the ones that you should be focusing on are building your network. I didn't say prospecting. I said building your network, people who want to talk with you because you did something for them. The other is understanding strategies. If I take this strategy, what happens? If I take the other strategy, what happens? And most of the time, there's not a clear answer, but the thinking is the benefit that you want from that. Too many people are just, give them a discount or call the CEO. Okay, can work sometimes, but what happens when they pick up the phone? Then all of a sudden you're caught empty-handed. What we need to do in certainly the large complex sale is start thinking more like detectives. How can I get this deal done? Why would they buy it? Who cares about the issues that I can solve? And who is going to get in the way and not understand it and have a personal win that's against me? Winning the complex sale is all about that. Building that strategy because the strategy has to be in place before you go on the sales call. Because when you're on the sales call, you're not thinking about strategy. You're kind of in the moment, feeling the flow of the conversation, probably hearing what you want to hear instead of what's really being meant by the words and the actions. And We tend not to want to think about strategy, or our brain just doesn't turn the strategy gene on at that moment. So you have to have that process, that strategy designed and ingrained in you before that call. And that's what Closing the Complex Sale will do for you. I want to appreciate— I certainly appreciate you listening. Check out the other podcasts, Sales Questions, Brutally Honest Answers, The Sales Leadership Show. Check out the YouTube channel where I keep all my videos. So if you're ever looking for a video and you're like, instead of sending me a note, hey Brian, you posted a video about sales about 6 months ago, could you send me a link? Just go to YouTube and search for it on my channel. You'll find it probably as fast as I will. And that will cut out the middleman who's not adding any value. But if you want to become great at sales, go to b2brevenue.com, check out the courses, sign up today. If you still have questions and are ready to sign up, you can schedule a phone call with one of our team members there. We'll see you next time.