THE SECRETS TO CONNECTING WITH THE C-SUITE IN B2B SALES

What are the most expensive lies in our life? Are they the big lies or are they the little, the little white lies that we tell ourselves to protect ourselves from doing the things that we know we should do, that we know will have the impact on our life that we want, but they require a little discomfort? That little startup time, that little reflection and the ability to crack our ego. These little white lies, rationalizations, are what kill salespeople. They're the most expensive. I bet today, like me, I'm no different. I'm not saying I don't do this. We all do it. The big white lies or little white lies in sales are preparing for calls. Practicing, thinking through the sale instead of telling ourselves, we've been doing this forever, I've done it a million times, this one should be easy, I got this. We all know what makes people great at anything, that 10,000-hour rule. So if you haven't read Malcolm Gladwell's The Outlier, you don't have to read the whole book. You could just Search 10,000-hour rule. The premise of the rule is that anyone can become great, not just good, great at something if they have 10,000 hours of deliberate practice. Now, in sales, that's hard. That's really hard because that's not 5 years because we're not having deliberate practice every day. We're having malpractice most of the days and a lot of time gaps trying to get to that real live conversation. But today you can do it wherever you are at any time for as long as you are with no downside outside of your head. The only downside is what you're telling yourself. If you can talk on the phone, which I think we all do, You can play. You can play with brevity. You can practice these little conversations, the ones that separate you from being a reactive service clerk to being a proactive salesperson. And it's free. So go to brevitypitch.com right now. Sign up for Brevity Play. It's the blue banner at the top of the website. There's a lot of stuff on the website, so look for the blue banner at the top, Brevity Play. Here we go with the interview. Hey, Mike, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Yeah, absolutely. So thanks for having me. Uh, background for me, 30,000-foot overview, been in sales, gosh, for the better part of nearly 20 years. Started in retail furniture sales, moved on to information management, risk mitigation, things of that nature. And then currently I've been with a new company for almost 2 years in the real estate world. And I know real estate is a little broad, but we'll leave it there and see where the conversation goes.

Cool. And why sales for you?

Sales for me, great question. I was passionate about sales in general growing up. And when I started college, I realized that sales is everywhere regardless if you're even in the profession. And I just think throughout my 4+ years there and then trending into the corporate world past my athletic experience, it just made sense from, you know, being consistently competitive, wanting to win, right? Getting the trophy at the end of the day, all those fun things.

So you kind of like the excitement and winning.

Yeah. The thrill of the catch, if you will, right? Yeah. Having a goal, meeting your goal, exceeding your goal. But then if you don't meet that goal, right, having that feeling like, hey, why did I fail? Let's fix that. Yeah.

And how long did it take before you felt like you got it before it felt like home?

I mean, I mean, arguably one could say maybe I haven't got it yet, but in all honesty, I think it was my maybe 3rd or 4th year after having my own territory and then being saddled with also bringing in brand new business, you know, net new logos versus expanding. I think it's a different skill set. It's a different mindset to understand, you know, growing something that's already there versus procuring something out of thin air. Understanding both those sides and kind of, and being, you know, again, saddled with a goal for both. That made me refine the way I approached and the way I thought about things. And yeah, at that point, probably 4 or 5 years in.

Yeah. And in the first role, was it not so much prospecting as account development? Is that—

Yeah, it was more so like, hey, we're gonna give you a territory, we're gonna give you a book of business. Most of your customers are happy. So, right, it was kind of like a 3-prong approach. Keep customers happy, the ones that aren't happy, get them happy. Renew them and then see if you can somehow expand what's already there. There was no insight or expectation of, hey, even though you have, you know, 47 zip codes and all this white space for new business, we don't want you focusing on that. So.

But did you or did you just— I did.

I did after I got my feet under me and understood what I was doing, who I was doing for, right? The value props, all those sales jargon phrases, I realized that earnings potential was a lot greater on the side of, hey, you're bringing a new customer, sky's the limit versus, and, you know, the way I think about it, there's only so much you could sell to somebody who already has something that you sell versus complete white space, eyes wide open, show me what you can do for me.

And did it become clear you became good at that?

Arguably, I would like to think so. I think what I take pride in telling the story is that when I was proactively trying to sell net new business, even though that wasn't something that was supposed to be in my purview, it kind of opened up the eyes of the then sales manager to say like, hey, we can actually saddle our sales associates with more responsibility in addition to giving them more earnings potential. And allows them to kind of spread their wings. And I think, like I was saying before, if you can sell in both environments, I think that just makes you a better sales professional overall.

Yeah. And plus, new accounts are a little bit more exciting, aren't they?

I would agree. Yeah. More difficult, I would argue too, but also more exciting. Risk-reward, if you will, especially depending upon what type of tools and technology and resources you have at your disposal. And if there's nothing, right, then it becomes incredibly difficult. Yeah.

And what would you say is your strongest sales characteristic?

My strongest sales, I would say curiosity, right? I've always been fascinated with learning more, even if I think or know that I've learned it all, whether it's about what it is I do, right? The value propositions, the differentiators versus what the customer is doing, what they have done, what they could be doing. Just, I guess, gleaning more insight versus just staying on that surface level. So All-encompassing, I would say curiosity. It's never just set it and forget it or sell and walk away. It's always what's new, what's different, what's changing, what's trending.

Yeah. And how did you become good at prospecting? Was that something that came natural or?

You know, I would say a lot of it was trial and error and then a piece of it was researching what has worked for other people in the past. Seeing it in action, you know, being being in the boiler room with your your your peers and seeing what sounds good, what's working, what's not working. I I honestly don't think you can get good at prospecting without falling on your face, hearing a bunch of nos, completely failing, and then fine tuning once something does work doesn't necessarily is gonna mean it's gonna work for somebody else. And I think that's one of the most eye-opening things I learned as I really got good at sales is that. Just because one thing worked, you can't just rinse and repeat, right? It depends on their business model, how they make decisions, what's their budget, what's their need. I mean, the list goes on. And so if you're amenable to change, right, and to be able to pivot on a dime, then you're going to be successful. Yeah.

And how would you characterize your sales style?

I'm sorry, I didn't hear that.

How would you characterize your sales style? Some people are relationship-oriented, other people are top-down, bottom-up. Grinders?

I would say I started in the relationship building, right? Book of business, understanding your customer, shaking hands, going to dinners like that, which I think is important, right? There's obviously an element of that. I would think more so now I've toggled to more of a consultative approach in being, you know, quote unquote, an industry expert, being able to bring stories from the outside, make them relatable to either that person's position or industry. And then, you know, trying to think of what we call like the industry peaking statements that get people interested to hear more, right?

Yeah.

So I would say I started in relationship, moved over to consultative, and I wouldn't say top down. I think there's a place for that and a time for that. I wouldn't say it's the best move every single time, but it's more so knowing and understanding what it is you're going after and how you can bring value to someone before you either pick up that phone, send an email, Or join a network, right?

And do you find that clearly this must work better for you than the pure relationship side of—

I think relationships tend to, the relationship model tends to be more pivotal. I find when you have an existing territory or book to where you have already that soft lead-in and that soft intro to where it's not, you know, awkward or risky to to get somebody's ear or to walk, you know, pre-COVID, walk into somebody's office and knock on the door and do all that stuff. I think if you can show value or establish curiosity effectively, quickly, then you become, then you have your, what's it called? You have your catch, your hook.

Yeah.

Then once you have the hook, then what happens? Then you have to drive additional value through something. And in my opinion, if you can be a consultant and be seen as an industry expert in something, you'll have their attention. But it's then how do you continue that on?

So you're very comfortable having long discussions about the industry?

I think you, in my line of work, you have to. Where I'm currently at, I would say it depends on the industry, right? I mean, everybody's sales cycle is different, whether you're doing million-dollar deals, or selling a product versus selling a solution. I mean, you know very well what I mean as far as like it depends what you're doing, right? I mean, 12 to 16 months, maybe a short sales cycle for somebody versus if you're just getting into the business, you'd rather have monthly and quarterly goals versus yearly and biannual goals, right?

And how did you develop that industry knowledge?

Well, a lot of time, research, my, one of my old bosses told me, you know, some people wait for training and they wait for a class or something to be given to them in order to help them get better.

Yeah.

He always said, hey, you are in charge of your own development to a point, right? And whether it's internet or the intranet or your peers or your friends or your network, If you're not asking questions consistently about something, then you're already doing yourself a disservice. So I think, just as I mentioned before, through being curious, you begin to find like, where can you go to get, you know, we'll say news articles or scoops or data, just so you can at least have a little peek behind the curtain as far as what somebody's doing or what they're about to do, right? Being able to relate, I would say that's— I forget who the The sales— oh, it's Aclavis. I'm not sure if you've ever heard of them. Aclavis, they have this 6-step process to when you open a call, right? You greet somebody, you're relating somehow, and then it's, you know, go on to the line. I found that you can show somebody quickly what it is you know about them, either their role or personally, you have their attention, right? Versus great examples. someone knocking on your door wanting to sell a candy bar, right? If they're just knocking on your door showing you the product and say, hey, you wanna buy some? There's no relationship there. But there's a different way to do the exact same thing with more of an impact, whether it's emotional impact or whatever the case may be. So I think for me, it's again being more curious than just focusing on the goal and how to hit your quota.

And how long did it take to become good at that? Because it must have been awkward at first.

Yeah, I would say, you know, when I think back to when I started sales, you know, learning about what you're supposed to do. Here's our product, here's how we differentiate, here's your market and here's why we're great, right? You memorize all those things. It's all like memorizing like a book report. You read the book and I give you back the book. But even though everybody in the classroom is reading the same book, the book report is gonna sound different. And so for me, I focus more on like statistical data and why we are good, why we are great. And I didn't focus enough on who I was talking to or the industry that I was focusing on. And I think once that mindset changed for me, maybe, you know, 1 to 2 years down, down the road, is making your presentations less about you and more about them, and then finding a way to make those synergize somewhere in the middle or towards the end. That's the presentation that makes it most impactful. Yeah.

And what do your clients want from you?

What do they want from me? Great question. I think they want stories of what has worked, what will work, and what might work. So stories and options and ways to, ways to get to the proof of concept, I think, are what they're looking for, right? A lot of companies do a lot of similar things, but the companies that do similar things Like other companies, but how they market their message and how they prove out why they differentiate themselves versus just saying it, that creates a good story, right? And if you can have a story with a little bit of drama, some reflection, and some sort of change agent at the end, that gets people excited, right? There's always a beginning, a middle, and an end. But is there something that happens that makes you think, aha, that's— those are the stories that I think are most impactful. And for me, right, I think storytelling is not necessarily a lost art, but not an art that's talked about enough. Because if you can, I mean, you think about the movies you've seen, right? Or the books that you've read, they all have a plot, they all have characters, they all have a message. But how that message is delivered and how you assume it's gonna be received is really what makes a great movie from a good movie, right?

Yeah, because I think a lot of people are great talking about themselves, their product, their company, But that kind of walks you right into a commodity trap. You're a thing, right?

You're a product. Yeah, that's true. But if you can tie in what it is that you do and how to make either their job easier, right? Or make them think about something that they've thought about for years in a different way, you become a potential change agent. And, you know, disruptor or, you know, change management, those phrases are all very exciting. But I think being able to just prove to somebody what you're telling them, what you're showing them actually works, that's pivotal.

And what's the hardest part of your sale?

Hardest part of the sale. Hmm. That is a very good question. The easy answer is it depends and it varies. But if I had to average it out, I think gaining general interest is— it's not easy, but I think you can get that relatively quickly if you're talking to the right people. And then devising the solution and what it is that's gonna make them tick and get them excited is one. But then it's that point of post-discovery, post-discussion, and almost post-proposal until potential close, that last third of a mile. is the hardest because you start, you know, if you get radio silence, you're wondering, was I talking to the right people? Did I say the right things? Did I do enough research? Did I understand the competition? Was I focused on all the right things? And there's a— there's 5 things that I always kind of grade myself when you're mentally thinking like, hey, where are we in the process if no one's actually telling you? It's like, who are the decision makers? Who are the competition? Was there a need?

Right?

What's the budget? And then what's the timing? So if you can answer all those 5 questions, you're doing the right thing. And if you can answer most of those, I think you're doing the right thing as well. But being able to establish a relationship between the key stakeholders for them to be open and honest with you, even if the news is bad, is, I think, the most important thing you can do early in the process. Because some people think like, hey, I'm trying to sell somebody, I'm trying to pull the wool over your eyes. I'm just trying to sell you a widget, walk away and be done. Most people don't understand that, you know, you, you develop the business relationship, but is there an opportunity to create a personal relationship? So to answer your question, very, very lengthy. It's that last third of the mile to where you start questioning whether or not you've done everything that you could possibly do to win this sale. And even if you don't, have you Earn the right for that customer to come to you and feel comfortable to say, hey, you know, unfortunately this, unfortunately that, but let's part as friends and stay in contact because you never know what the next month, quarter, year might look like.

And that's really how to measure how good the relationship is.

Right. Is it a 2-way street or is it a one-way street where I'm talking at you and you're just nodding your head and saying, okay.

Yeah. And will they talk to you Both outside of the transaction or when they don't want or need anything.

Right, exactly. And again, I think that goes both ways too. If, you know, let's say we're engaged in something and we have a great relationship and you decide not to move forward, I should feel comfortable reaching back out to you in whatever sort of timeframe it is and not just necessarily talk about business, but have I learned enough about you maybe and your family or your likes and your dislikes or your passions to have a conversation about. And that's where the relationships really kind of blossom. Yeah.

And a lot of people don't understand that. They see it as trying to be friends, but it's deeper than that and broader than that. It's about connecting with another human being.

Right. That's true. Connecting. That's a good word. Because I can ask you, you know, 4 or 5 generic surface-level questions, learn a little bit about you and then say, oh, well, I'm interested in baseball too. I also have a dog. How great is that? But it's, are you going like, again, I said it before, you know, going beneath that surface?

Yes.

You know, below, below that sea level to understand like what makes them tick, what are they passionate about, right? And that can be anything from family, potentially sports, right? Hiking, whatever the case may be. But if, if you can show a genuine interest besides just asking a question, right, that's when any, any sort of relationship, you know, in your network of friends, you probably know more about your network of friends than someone who you just met on the street.

And when the deals don't close or delay, what's typically the cause?

I would say more times than not, it's the decision not to do something versus the business going elsewhere. Yeah. Which either tells me one of two things. A, didn't do my job well enough to make them see why it makes sense to either start doing something they haven't done, or change from whoever or whatever they're doing now into something else. I wouldn't say the, the lack of success is because somebody else is doing it better. It's because they decided not to make a decision. And that's a lot of the— a lot of my talk track is what's the cost of doing nothing? And unfortunately, they don't see the cost of doing nothing a lot of the times, and that's just unfortunate. But at some point, They will see the light and great tie back into the relationship, because if you stay connected, then when that opportunity does now arise, whether it's via RFP or something, some other, other forum, then you're gonna get the knock on the door or the phone or the ping or the email to where, hey, we remember what you said. You know, you were right. We should have done A, B, and C. Let's have another discussion.

And is it the type of thing where it's just easier to stay with what they're doing or is it just a priority thing?

I think, well, I've the last maybe 8 to 12 months, I would say the fear of a large change management gets people a little squirrely, right? When you think about either, you know, the economy and around the inflation and the The marketplace, people are continually doing more with less. And so when you are doing more with less and you have less people, but now you're asked to do something you've never done before, that gets frightening for people. And, you know, maybe you can be the best salesperson in the world, but if it's too large of an uplift or too much of something different than what they've never seen before, they're just not— sometimes they're not ready. for the answers to the questions that they're asking. And whether it's, we call it, you know, first-gen outsource, someone who hasn't done something that we do and gone to using something we do versus someone who's done what we do with somebody else and looking for either a more economical, cheaper way to do it or a better way to do it. I think those are 2 different, completely different mindsets, right? And when you're looking to take somebody from doing nothing to doing something, that's the hardest conversation to have to get them to buy in. Knowing how much of a change management process is gonna take into effect in addition to what you're essentially delivering to them from a solution standpoint as well.

And have you found a way to mitigate that fear of the change? Because that's typically what we're competing against. The product works, they get it, they like it, but it's different.

Right. I would say what's— we've seen success Is when, as opposed to the whole kit and caboodle, right? As opposed to the the whole extra value meal where you're getting the drink, the fries, and the burger, we'll parse it out. You know, we'll do a pilot. We'll do a proof of concept. We'll take the burger in a couple bites versus one large gulp. And even though it arguably puts us at a kind of a disadvantage because there is a there's large change agent on our end too because we want to. be able to fund the program and jump right in and get excited about it. But when you have to parse it out, customers are more responsive to kind of dipping their toe in versus jumping in feet first. So we've seen that work. Granted, if I was being fully transparent, we would love the customer who's ready to just jump right in and trust us to deliver what we said we were gonna deliver. But trust takes time.

It does. And if you found a way to accelerate the trust or build it or Yeah, do incredibly well in the proof of concept and the phased approach. Yeah.

Build trust. Yeah. You know, it's funny, you know, virtual meetings, right, becoming more and more the norm. I also was very much a fan of getting on a plane, right, walking in, having face-to-face meetings. And I think it's easier to build trust in person. I will never think that virtually it's easier. Now, People are more accessible virtually, which is kind of that, that extra little nugget versus, you know, someone's in Pennsylvania and someone's in LA. Am I gonna take, you know, 17 cross-country trips just to have a 30-minute meeting? Probably not. But I would say is, as it gets easier to travel and people are more amenable to meeting in person and, you know, back to the office initiatives are, are, you know, you hear more and more us as well. I think building trust, there's a level of having to meet, shake a hand, go to a dinner, learn more about somebody versus just the PowerPoints that we're discussing and the value to your business. What's gonna be the value to you on a personal level, right? Whether that's spending more time with family because I'm offloading something off your plate, right? Or you getting an opportunity to go on that vacation that you haven't gone on because you're saddled with too much and can't focus on your, on your core competencies, like things like that. So To answer your question, trust is sped up with the ability to meet people more often in person versus virtually. But if that can't happen, I think it's consistent touchpoints to where you're bringing something new to the table every time for them to think about and to digest.

And what sales skill do you wish you had more of or better at?

That's a meaty one. I would say I wish I had, I wish I had more pivotal stories to pull from at the ready without having, say, you know, 1 to 2 weeks to think about it, to, you know, be prepared. Because, you know, if you got a meeting or something happening at the end of the month and it's the first of the month, you got a lot of time to refine your talk track, refine your skill, refine the narrative. But, you know, when you have that elevator pitch moment, right? Or you're at a networking event or a conference or something to where your time to act is much reduced.

Yeah.

I don't feel I have enough stories yet to bring to light for the various industries that are involved. You know, in my line of work, we span the entire country. We're meeting with 35 different types of businesses. And so I certainly don't have 35 different stories for the different businesses that exist. So I think over time I'll develop those. But that would be my answer, having the ability to tell a great story that applies to all. I'd love more of those.

And what about sales do you believe to be true that most salespeople don't get?

I think, you know, most people don't understand why I call it the widget misnomer. When you think about sales, a lot of people think you're, you know, a vendor on the side of the street. Car pulls over, hey, I need a glass of lemonade. If I have a glass of lemonade, great, I'm bringing you value. I'm giving you exactly what you need at a fair price. And then, you know, like the dealers in Vegas, like 21, I'm out, like I'm done. But most people don't understand there's lots that happens before the conversation, lots that happen during the conversation. And then even after the conversation is over, whether it's won business like we talked about or lost business, There's still that level of relationship that arguably will last until you both retire. And that's a rinse repeat for all your customers. And so it's not just a set it and forget it. It's you have a never-ending Rolodex in your head of people and businesses, and it's ever-changing, right? You can listen to all the quarterly reports and all the quarterly earnings. But things are always changing and those relationships are always changing. So I would say that most people don't understand the amount of time that it takes to prepare for a sale, engage in the sale, and then stay involved after the sale, whether or not that sale happens. The ones that do understand that are the ones that excel in their field.

It's true. What motivates you more, the desire to win or the hatred of losing?

These are great questions. I would say, I would say the hatred of losing.

Yeah.

And I, when you, when you answer, ask that question, it reminded me of like the risk that you may or may not take, right? Would you feel better knowing that, I'm sorry, would you feel worse knowing that if I didn't take the risk, I'll never know what would've happened versus taking the risk and having that I guess, result be negative. I would rather I take the risk and I fall flat on my face versus me never knowing what was gonna happen. And so I guess the losing for me is if I don't take the risk, I'll never know what it is or what it feels like to lose, right? Because for a great example, you get an RFP invite. Some people think RFPs are a crappy process, right? Because there's— you don't get— sometimes you don't get the opportunity to build the relationship. You're just being a commodity, right?

Yep.

But during the RFP process, if you kind of flip the thinking to think, hey, you know what, I don't have a relationship yet. This RFP gives me a small gateway into creating a relationship, whether it's through procurement, whether it's through some third-party sourcing, whatever the case may be. So if you don't respond to the RFP, you're never gonna win. And you're— if you can't win, then you can't lose either. So you just stay status quo. So I would say for me, I hate losing. But I'm okay losing, know that I gave my best shot. And there's always a learning little nugget that you get every time you lose, whether it's like, oh, I forgot about this, or I didn't do this, or hey, maybe I over-exemplified this product. So if you're learning, staying curious, then I think that the hatred of losing outweighs the thrill of winning, even though winning is a lot of fun. Don't get me wrong, champagne moments are, are the moments you live for. But I'd say that, you know, and you know this too, you lose more than you win, just like in baseball, right? You strike out more than you hit a home run. But it's, if you don't go up to the plate, then you never will get a chance.

Great. Hey, I really appreciate your time today. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

Well, I'm certainly available on LinkedIn. I am also on other social media platforms, but I probably wouldn't advertise those here. But if you're interested in Instagram, you can find me on there as well.

One of the things that I've noticed in the people that are in Closing the Complex Sale is that they kind of fight the writing down of the process, understanding it, having it available other than in their head, because the worst place in the world for it to be is in your head. Why? Because you're not going to remember it at the time. You'll remember it later, a day, a week, an hour later, but then it's too late. And you're not going to consider all of the elements until you're already in them. And what do I keep saying? Sales is a prevention profession. Imagine trying to learn any game by trial and error. Not a good strategy. Or how about learning it from somebody who only watches and sees the best of the best deals? Not a good strategy. That's your manager. Your manager doesn't see the hard deals. They see the best of the best. They should. It's not their fault. It's that they're focused on revenue in the easiest, fastest way possible. Those aren't the B and C deals. They're the A-level deals. And they understand— that's why when you do that review with them, they can't understand why the deal's so complex and stuck and hard. Because the deals they see are the best, the easy, the inbound, the repeat deals. It's not their fault. It's the nature of it. The deals that get you to where you want to be are going to be the marginal deals. They're going to be the hard ones, the ones that would naturally not close. How do you prevent that? You've got to understand how the deals work, and they're not like the easy deals. Yes, anyone can take an order. Anyone can give a discount. Anybody can offer up something at the end of the quarter. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about doing it the right way. Not having to give away, not having to concede the deal to the smallest amount. Being able to see the deal for where it is, where you're at with it, and how to prevent the bad things from happening and ensure the good things. That's what Closing the Complex Sale does for you. And check it out. I gotta tell you a secret though. Prices are going up. What did I say? Inflation? That's what I hear. Brian, you can't do that. Oh, I might have to. Costs are going up. Inflation's everywhere. So sign up today. Join in. Invest a little bit in yourself. And if you're not willing to do that, ask yourself, am I in the right profession? Wait a minute, why shouldn't my company pay for this? See if you can get them to do it. All you have to do is look at the email that I put in the show notes below. It's a simple little email to send to your manager to get them to pay for it. Try it out. Don't send me a note asking for it. It's right there in the show notes. Just page up a little bit. That's right, just tap on the artwork and page up. Or if you don't know how to see your show notes, go on YouTube and say How do you read show notes on your podcast player? I give you a little bit of a sample how to get a huge ROI. Most of the people are getting it in a month for the whole course. So if you do the monthly payment, not a membership, a monthly 12-month commitment, then it pays for itself before you get the bill. Isn't that a great thing? Or wait a second, Brian. I don't have enough deals to work on. I understand. I've got something for you there. Start the conversation. Get the meeting. Get away from sending spam and cold call, robocalls, and actually get someone to talk to you in an interactive, delightful conversation that turns into a business conversation. This is a lost art because we're all transactional now. But transactional only works when the other person has a need already, has recognized that, has called you. We can all do that. There's no talent to that. There's no art to that. But can you start a conversation with a stranger? Hmm, not sure. I know, check it out. Hey, have you checked out the other podcasts? Subscribe to the Brutal Truth, the best of. Sales Questions, Brutally Honest Answers. And if you're in sales leadership or want to, The Sales Leadership Show. That's it. We'll see you again next time. If you see my stuff fly by on LinkedIn, give it a little like, a little comment, a little share. You'll have a friend for life. Thanks for listening.