THE TOP 3 LESSONS FROM AN A-PLAYER IN ENTERPRISE SALES

Today, a lot of people are treating cold outbound like it's warm inbound, meaning that they're starting where the sales rep is at, talking about the product and maybe even the problem and how other people are solving it. But yet the client, the prospect, it's like, who, who are you? What is this? Let me explain why I don't need this. If somebody's talking to you about something new, something different, what's your reaction? Your first reaction is like, don't I already have something like this? Is this really something I care about? The art of starting a conversation and developing it into getting a meeting is kind of a game changer if you're in B2B sales. Because if you look at your inbound, ah, not much of it. And what there is, not that good. So what choice do you have? You have your existing accounts. Um, you have your lame old current approach because most of the people I talk to, it's like before the course, it's how many meetings you getting per week? And it's a half, a half a meeting. What's that? If you want to learn this skill and really take your game to another level by understanding how mammals start conversations with strangers and build them into meetings. Check out the course, Start the Conversation, Get the Meeting. It's a game changer. It'll fill up your calendar with highly interested people, people who are willing to talk with you. That is the beauty. We have to have that conversation. If you're wondering if they need your product, they don't. It's our job to create that and build up that need. They may want it. They may have a need that they don't recognize. Let's bring that to the surface. Let's get into this interview. I think you're really going to enjoy it today. I've got a great sales leader with a great sales career. And part of what I'm trying to bring to you with this podcast is to save you years of trial and error by showing you what the best salespeople do differently. Now, your confirmation bias will say, oh, I'm doing that already. Well, How well? And if you're not getting the results you want, how do you get them? You have to be open-minded. Let's get into the interview.

Hey Joe, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Well, first and foremost, thanks for having me. Um, quick background personally, married 33 years happily, single wife, which is great. 5 children, all grown and out of the house now and out of college. But so on a personal level, that's, that's who I am. From a business perspective, I recently just started a new role as CRO of a startup called Omidin, which is my demo spelled backwards. So leading the charge there. This is my 5th pre-IPO startup. So back in the fold, and you know what that's like, you know, building things from the ground up, you know, go-to-market strategy and what have you, but excited about the opportunity.

Cool.

Hey, I was just looking through your, your career, and I got to tell you that that beginning in that payroll, that ADP beginning, seems to be very consistent. That's a great breeding ground for sales leaders.

Yeah, and actually just before ADP, I started right out of college because, you know, back when people like you and I graduated, we needed to get a job immediately. I was selling copiers for Ricoh, and as I say, that's like one step up from selling vacuum cleaners or, uh, you know, steak knives door-to-door. But, uh, I, I, when I got the job, my mother gave me a disappointed look and said, you went to college to become a sales rep? And then 18 months later, I took my first role at ADP, and she goes, finally, you got a real job. So like you said, ADP had this connotation of professionalism. And I, I do say, Brian, it really did put me on a career of, you know, a professional sales role as opposed to a job. You know, ADP takes that, uh, training very seriously, and the profession itself of selling. That's really where I learned a lot of the basics and, uh, you know, some of the things I still carry with me today.

And the other thing I noticed was you took your time before you decided to get into leadership.

Was there—

was that conscious or was that just the situation?

Those that know me well, uh, know that I avoided that like the plague. I used to be very, very, uh, antagonistic about the sales management role. I'm like, those that manage do so because they can't sell. And they used to get mad at me, but I avoided it. Very— at Oracle, I turned it down twice. At Ariba, I turned it down twice. And then finally, at Salesforce, you know, after 5 and a half years of selling, I took the management role the first time when I was at Salesforce. But the difference is, is on your own terms, right? Instead of being forced to do it, I did it when I wanted to do it. That made a big difference.

And what made you want to do it versus—

You know, and again, I don't want to get too philosophic about it, but like you get to a point in your career where you want to give back, right? And, you know, you know as well as I do, being a good leader is selfless. It's about the team, it's about mentoring, it's about bringing success to others and passing that on. And I don't say those words lightly. It really is true. And when you have that mindset, you're ready for management because it's a, it's a thankless job if it's about you. I can tell you the The worst leaders in the world make it about them, and, and that's not what makes a good leader. So that was the difference, right, is I was ready to really support a big organization and really give back in a way that was less about yourself and more about, you know, the entity, the group, the team.

And were there any surprises about what the job meant and what you had to do and what it took to be successful versus the rep's view where it's kind of like, just let me make my number?

I know what I'm doing.

I think one, the surprise was, is to have a respect for leadership in general, right? You know, when as an individual contributor, it's easy to point north and go, those guys, those gals don't get what we do. You know, they don't walk a mile in our shoes. Well, they do, right? Uh, so I gained respect there. And the other thing is, is not to make the rookie's mistake and try to sell for your team, right? You know, all the rookie leaders that I know, and I, and I was guilty of this early on but more self-aware about, is Oh, let me go just take over for you, Brian, and do the deal for you. That's not good leadership. That's not training. That's not mentoring. That's not growing anybody, you know. And that's a lot of mistakes that early sales leaders make that I would recommend be very cognizant of the fact that just because you think you're so good, that's not what your job is as a sales leader. So—

And when did that mindset shift between, you know, being the hunter, go kill what you eat, that being the motive, the excitement, to helping other people, building a team, because that's a very different mindset.

Yeah, I'd say some of it you don't lose though, right? Like, I'm still as hungry and competitive as ever. It's just in my DNA, you know? Like, I drive that way. My wife all the time is like, you need to slow down. I just— I can't help it. It's in my DNA. And so I think the shift was, is being able to think about that desire, that drive, and impart that in others. And sometimes you can't make that happen, but you can accentuate it, right? There's different motivating factors for different people, right? People are motivated financially. People are motivated personally. And to tap into that, I think that's the shift that I made is like I get into the human nature of people. I really do. I enjoy people. I enjoy talking about it. So from a leadership perspective, to Figure out what it is that motivates that person, right? And then using that to get that same drive, that same desire, and make people better, right? Like, and it's not, you can't force somebody to do something, but you can encourage, you can mentor, you can get them to have that own internal aha moment. And so that was the shift for me is being able to get more out of people and get more out of, you know, but people don't think they can do 10 pushups. Well, guess what? You know, if there was a dying effort, you'd do it. You'd figure out the You can get more out of yourself. And I think that's part of what leadership does is— and, and that was the shift for me, is really is to get that mentality imparted in others and lead them in a way that they're excited about. And I think that's really been a great success factor to me, is people enjoy working for me because I try to do things on their terms as opposed to my terms.

And how about as far as going from selling IT like you did at Oracle, and Ariba was probably more procurement, right?

Is that what it is?

Yeah, absolutely.

And then Then the sales force, where it's sales operations, sales leadership, that's a— they're rascals. They're tough customers, aren't they?

Yeah. So one of the tougher things was selling to procurement, right? So I had a REBA early on where, you know, you would have a sales process with the, you know, coincidentally the same team they actually had to negotiate with. And so you get this shift from all these value propositions that people are shaking their head. Yeah, yeah, we want to buy REBA. Oh, you're of no value. You need to discount the price. I'm like, you're the same person I was talking to last week. So it's interesting. I will get back to the human nature of it though. Buying decisions are made emotionally. People will rationalize why they made a decision because of price and this, that, the other thing. But at the end of the day, I felt good about it, right? I made the decision because something tweaked me internally, emotionally that made me comfortable doing that. So regardless of the product or the industry, there are similarities in the buying process, the psyche of a person and how they make decisions. So that's what's helped me regardless whether it was a technology sale or like a real industry change, like the cloud that Salesforce really created. We were a software as a service. There was no such thing as the cloud. We were selling an entirely different model, let alone the product. And then here at Olmiden, my demo spelled backwards, we're again, we're breaking new ground on this buying and selling environment in the B2B world. It's fractured, it's broken, right? salespeople are doing more of the bad things and sales acceleration platforms are highlighting, I can make more calls, I can make more dials, but I'm not really getting any more value out of it.

Right.

So I think that the factor that I think about is, you know, at the end of the day, on the selling and buying side, on either side, there's a human, right? We can be digital, we can be frictionless, we can do all these great things, but there's a person there. And if you tap into that, regardless of the product or service or the industry you're in, You know, that, that will carry you. And that's what's done well for me. And it's cliché, but I, I always think about the customer first. And I've heard you mention this as well. If you think from the lens or the viewpoint of the customer, it really changes your perspective. And if you're genuinely interested in their problems, not just asking questions because there's a script in front of you— humans, people can tell, right?

Yes.

When you're genuine, people can tell.

Right.

Yeah. And I always kind of just even as a reminder, I call it mammal-to-mammal selling that keeps me away from the logic and the value proposition and the elevator pitch.

Yeah.

Because if you can get to that emotion where people want to talk, yeah, that's where the magic happens.

Well, I mean, my father was never in sales, blue-collar guy, grew up, you know, HVAC guy, you know, heating, ventilation, air conditioning. He used to tell me at a young age, you have 2 ears and 1 mouth, use them accordingly. I mean, and he had no business background whatsoever. It was just like you said, mammal to mammal, just listen. You know, if you, if you listen, you'll, you'll learn a lot.

Well, that's it. I just got a new air conditioner, so I know what that's like. You want somebody to kind of walk you through that process because I know nothing about it. Right.

And that's, you know, there's the connotation of a salesperson. I, I mean, you asked me about early on in my career with ADP. ADP was the shift for where it became a profession a career, not just a job. But at the same time, you got to shake that stigma that, you know, salespeople are coercive, they're aggressive. The best salespeople listen, they connect, they educate, they encourage. You know, those are the best salespeople, right? I mean, the ones that have that, you know, slick sales pitch or they talk a lot about themselves, that's not a great professional if you ask me.

And doing a startup, That's a different thing, isn't it?

Yeah, I've done enough of them to know that, you know, set your expectations low because something's going to disappoint you along the way. And, you know, humans are flawed, right? You know, founders may have great ideas, founders may have, you know, great motivation, but they're usually good at a few things and not everything. So, you know, the reason I'm on board is on the sales execution side of Omiden, right? Our founder, Greg Dickison, is a great friend, a great guy, but he has a pre-sales engineering background, right? You know, so he needs help in certain areas, right? He knows product very well. He knows code very well. He's also done this before, so that mitigates some risk. But, you know, Keith Kroc, an early executive I came to know at Ariba, said it best, hire good and hire better around you, right?

Yeah.

Like, you know, so to be humble enough to hire people smarter than you or better than you, or be humble enough to know that I do this well, but not that well. That's where, you know, the startups I got engaged in early on have really come to fruition is because people were humble enough to hire better, right? To look at, I do this well, but also be self-aware to know that I don't do this well. And that's why we're going to hire to that.

And was it hard going from a bigger company to a small startup again? Because you don't have the, you don't have the run rate, you don't have the team in place, you don't have the systems in place, expectations are super high.

Difficult is a word. I'd use scary. I went from ADP to Oracle, 2 very large companies, you know, but from a, you know, a very, you know, singular sale around payroll to a very dynamic technology world in Oracle. When I left Oracle to go to Ariba, I'm telling you, it was scary. I had kids in diapers, I had mortgages, I had a lot of expense. And going from that run rate where you're very comfortable in your you know, daily routine at Oracle to a startup where, you know, I'll be very honest, I didn't get a commission check for the first 14 months. Wow. It was difficult personally, you know what I mean?

You were there, they were super hot at that time, but the deals weren't coming though yet.

Well, I was there before they were hot. I was employee 101 in the company, okay? And nobody heard of, you know, e-procurement or, you know, the whole thing they were trying to do around, you know, non-strategic, you know, purchasing. And, you know, it took a while to get the message out. It took a while, but then, you know, we did a lot of business in the game across different industries. Like, I owned the telco vertical at the company and, you know, ended up selling all the biggest telcos in the world. It just took a while to get started. That first 14 months was pretty challenging. And, you know, my wife had some choice words, you know, but it was all worth it in the end. But you mitigate risk with people, right? In a startup, I had the very good fortune of working with some very solid individuals. You know, you're in that foxhole mentality together, bullets whizzing above your head. Those are friendships that last a lifetime, you know, and it's why I'm working with Greg again, because of the work we did together at Ariba. But fun times. But to your point about going to a startup, be prepared to be disappointed, be prepared to be uneasy. You know, you got to be comfortable being outside your comfort zone, for sure.

Well, that's it, because a lot of people who are at bigger companies think that a startup is just a smaller company. And it's like, no, it's a lot more to it.

And there's a lot of stigma out there that, you know, especially the younger generation think that all startups turn into great IPOs and everybody's going to make a ton of money. You know, it's— it does not happen that way at all. And the sweat equity that's needed to get the small percentage to be successful is, uh, No, not for the faint of heart. Let's just say that.

Well, yeah, especially, you know, at that time when you got kids and you were used to getting a steady state of commission checks and you go from that to large strategic deals that take a year and a half. Yeah, that's scary.

It is, it is. But again, you mitigate that by, you know, the self-confidence, right? The, the role of sales in general takes not cockiness, not arrogance, but self-confidence. Yes, being confident that you, you can see the light at the end of the tunnel. They know the actions, although not producing any revenue today is moving the ball forward. Like, having that experience gives you that confidence, like, no, no, we're on the 30, we're on the 50, you know, we've crossed over into their zone, you know, we're getting closer. Knowing that helps a lot, right? Because there's no dollar figure, there's no win that has happened, but progression matters. And you can tell, again, in a genuine way if you're progressing or not. I don't mean on a forecast call where you're lying to management about something. I mean real progression.

Real progression. Yeah, you, you can tell, not just upping the percentage.

That's right. Yeah, well, somebody moving it for you.

And if you were to build the ideal enterprise sales rep, what would the ingredients be?

Uh, that's— for me, that's easy because I've hired a lot of people over the last, you know, 10 years of my career. And, you know, of course I look at a resume real quick to see, you know, what their history or their background is, but the face-to-face, the interaction matters because The first and foremost thing I'd say is you got to have a desire. You can't make somebody want to succeed. They have to have that internal fire, that desire to do better every day, and they just hold themselves self-accountable for that, right? That's the first thing I look for. And then a high level of integrity. There are a lot of people out there that think that shortcuts are the smarter way of selling to the smarter— there are no shortcuts to success. You have to be willing to work. You have to be willing to put in the sweat equity. So if I know somebody that has full accountability, that desire, and they have that, you know, integrity to, you know, do good deals, good business, because there's too much good business out there. You don't need to do bad deals. You don't.

Right.

So if I see those qualities in somebody, and I can see that through certain questions that will get them to talk about themselves in that way, and you can tell a person's persona, not them giving you answers that, you know, there's a lot of people prepare for interviews and they're like, oh, here's the answer I'm gonna have. I don't want the canned answer. I want the real, story coming out about Brian or whoever I'm talking to. So to me, that's the best enterprise sales rep, somebody that has that high level of integrity, that sense of, you know, self-aware, you know, and, you know, really accountability. And then just a genuine desire, right? Like, the best salespeople I've ever engaged with have a real genuine desire to help. They really do, right? And they can help by propagating their product, but they help by listening to a client's real need. And, you know, I've seen the best salespeople step away from a deal, right? Because it's just not right. They don't need it.

Right.

And it takes a lot to do, but when you do, you gain so much, you know. And like, for instance, ADP— I worked there. I also sold them Oracle Financials. I sold them Salesforce CRM. I sold them Ariba Procurement. And I sold them Inside Sales, Sales Acceleration. There's a reason I could do that, and it's because of the integrity that I carried you know, with the account. People knew me in the account and knew that I wouldn't present something to them that wasn't of value.

And earlier you said, or you felt, that B2B was broken. Can you dig into that a little bit? What parts do you think are most broken?

So I'll talk about this in a broad scale. So in the B2C world, right, we've seen with especially people being at home with the pandemic, all the online buying you can do in your personal life, right? I can do a search with a couple of thumb clicks, get some information about a product, and then with Amazon, a day later, it's at my doorstep. Pretty frictionless, pretty crazy how quick I can transact. I can buy a Tesla for $42,000 online with Bitcoin today. That's crazy. But a $42,000 transaction, which is relatively small in a business-to-business world, I'm probably going to interact with 4 to 8 different buying organizations, people, and somebody has a security discussion, somebody has a compliance discussion with me. pricing, all those different things. And it may take me 4 to 6 months to get that transaction done. That's what I say when B2B transactions are broken today, because it's very frustrating for the buyer community to get what they want, because they know in their personal lives they can get this stuff pretty readily. Why can't I do so in my business life? And then sellers conversely are frustrated because they're not getting buyers' times, right? They're buyers, you know, Gartner will tell you this, right? There's many facts out to say a buyer would prefer a more digital upfront experience and less of a human experience until I'm ready, right? And, and selling organizations are being propagated with all this technology to do more intrusive behavior that buyers don't want, you know. Yeah, that's fractured.

It always seems like there's this weapon-anti-weapon type of thing. And right, because if there, if there's an active desire to buy Or to investigate, right? People will search, but they don't really have what they want. Like me with the air conditioner, I don't know what— I want my house cool. I don't know what that translates into a unit.

I know, I, I love what you just said out there because I'll say this: nobody Google searches something they're not interested in, right? I've never done a search for something I don't care about, right? There's a reason, there's a motivation. If we tapped into that listening from the buying community in the business-to-business world, as sales professionals, we'd stop trying to sell kitty litter to people that don't have cats. Sales professionals are doing that every day in the business-to-business world. They're propagating their value statement, they're propagating all this stuff. I don't know if you want to be cool or not, right? Like, you know, and, and so what Omid— and not to pitch— but Omid is trying to flip the script on this and say Listen to what buyers are wanting. Give them information upfront. Let them get on a learning journey. They'll self-qualify, right? You're shaking your head because you know that buyers will go, well, wait, I heard enough. I want to know more. Think about the level of engagement you have now. You have a genuine need, a genuine desire, you know? So that's what we're trying to tap into at Own It.

Well, that's it. We've lost the art of conversation and replaced it with cadences.

It's a great point. Absolutely.

And people don't think in cadences. They think in random thoughts. Can you give me an example? How am I wrong? And I recently bought a TV as well. And I bought one on Amazon from the picture.

But it was enough, right?

Right. That's where the B2C is broken.

But in the B2B world, I think what we're seeing now, especially— and it wasn't created because of the pandemic, but it certainly highlighted the this, the digital interaction we're having right now. You know, you're in the DC area, I'm in the North Jersey area, we're conversing, we're connecting online in a very frictionless way. I did a couple of clicks on my machine, the next thing you know, I'm talking to you in a live video. Buyers are looking for that same experience, right? I want to be able to get some information from you quickly, right? Don't hit me with a bunch of stuff that you don't know I need or not just— but buyers are looking to be educated. Like you said, I want to know what I don't know, right? I really do. I am interested. Listen to that and then respond accordingly, and we'll have a much better engagement. And what you're finding is buyers are starting to do business with people that they like. Think of what I just said, like, why did I select— because there's 5 things, 5 different companies that can do what I want, but I'm going to set the one that I like dealing with them. They listen to me, they didn't waste my time, they're easy to do business with. You hear these statements made all the time. It wasn't about price, it wasn't about this feature versus that feature.

Right.

So everyone thinks it's about price.

It's the easiest thing, especially in B2B.

Oh, there's no budget. It's like, that's an excuse, right?

Right.

Because it goes back to what you describe as the people buy for emotional reasons.

There's humans on either side of that equation, right? As much as people don't want to admit it, salespeople have a heart too. You know, salespeople, some of us, the best salespeople are trying to help. They really are. Seriously. They're progressing because they think they have a real opportunity to do something better for you and your company. If you could get those 2 connections going and that, you know, through a frictionless digital experience, but in a humanistic way, everybody's going to be happier, I can tell you. And when people feel better, people spend money, right? All of a sudden budgets— there's no longer a budget problem anymore.

Right?

It's like time and I'm busy, right? People are interested. Well, they're still busy, but they take the time.

It's funny, I look at my phone sometimes, I'm like, yeah, I'm too busy. You know what I mean? A minute later, somebody calls me, I want to talk to you, I'm no longer busy. I pick up the phone. Think of how that is. That's, that's what's happening, you know.

And what's kept you with these companies? Because you've got, you know, lots of good traction or longevity where it's a business where not many people have longevity at companies.

Yeah.

Again, I'll say I'm very fortunate and I won't use the term lucky. Any, any dumb sap can be lucky. I've been very fortunate. Fortune is when you take, you know, an opportunity. I've been fortunate to work with some really, really good people. I mean, starting at ADP, you know, my first manager at ADP, I'm still in contact with. That's 30 years ago. Think about that, right? I mean, and that— so to answer your question, what's kept me at any of those companies is a belief in the product and a belief in the people that I work with. And sometimes it's been one or the other, not both. I, like, I've stayed at companies longer because of the people around me. Like, in fact, you know, a couple of jobs ago, I stayed probably a year longer because of the team I built. I handpicked, I, I brought these people in, and I really felt, you know, responsible and to not leave until I had things in a certain way that I felt comfortable leaving. I literally stayed longer at an organization just because of the team, just because of the people. So—

But I'm sure you had good quarters and bad quarters, good years and bad years, and, and you have to manage up and down. Yeah, right, because you've got the board, the CEO, keeping people happy. A lot of people can't do that.

Yeah. And by the way, this comes back to the accountability, and I put my— the same, you know, mirror in front of myself, right? Like, when you miss a quarter and you have a board meeting, you know, you can't shy away. No, I'm not sick. I got to be there, and I got to take the bad with the good and own that, right? And that's tough. But again, the best thing I ever learned is to hit a problem head-on. And I learned it. So Early, early, early on in my life, I was a wrestler. And wrestling is a very individual sport, right? You know, it's a team sport, but when you got on the mat, there's only one other person out there, and that's your opponent. So if you win, you don't have a lot of people to thank other than yourself. But if you lose, there's not a lot of other people to blame than yourself. And that's carried with me. So like when it comes to like bad quarters, being able to manage up in that, just hit it directly. And I found that more times than not, if you don't try to skirt the issue, if you don't try to sugarcoat it, you just rip that Band-Aid off and go, look, we missed, and here's the honest reasons why, it really takes the pain away very quickly and you're able to get to, okay, so how do we fix that? How do we move forward? And I've done that with people that work for me as well. I was like, look, you screwed up. I'm not going to sugarcoat it. You messed up. That doesn't mean I don't love you. It doesn't mean you're fired. It just means own it. And now let's talk about a path to rectify that. Let's not, one, let's not repeat the problem again. Right? But I think people have been very refreshed with that approach because like, You know, it's funny, I say to people all the time, when you work for me, what I say is what I mean. There's a lot of, you know, people with innuendo. I go, I have no innuendo. What I just told you is what I meant. Like, you don't need to read into it any further. Now, some people take that like, wow, you're pretty harsh. But guess what? It's out there and it's over, right?

It's over.

That's the—

it's not holding on to it for a quarter and then throwing it back in their face. It's like, so those are on the table.

Those are some of the things that I think have really carried me, you know, through those bad times. It's like, just own it, rip the Band-Aid off, be done with it, but then have a plan of action, you know, and, you know, don't make excuses. You know, too many people try to figure out ways to avoid what really did happen instead of just saying, look, this is what happened, I own it, and here's my thoughts around fixing it, but hey, I could use some help. It's amazing how people react when you ask for help. As opposed to try to skirt an issue.

And that's what you want out of a rep, because when the rep comes to you before something goes south and asks for help— after it goes south, it's more covering butt, but before it goes south, let's say the deal stalled or slowing down, and when they ask their manager for help, the manager is going to help as opposed to, oh, you should have done this. You know, when I was there, it was all working out.

Yeah, again, it's a great subject, Brian, because people don't know how freeing that is, right? I mean, because again, when you're younger in your sales career, like, here's one thing I wish I'd learned very early on and didn't, right? The power of no. When you're a young salesperson, you want to say yes to everything. Yes, we can do that. Yes, I can be there. Yeah, yes, I'll be there. And you're like, oh shit, why did I say yes? You know, like, you say yes too often. The power of no will get you to yes all the time, especially in the negotiation. Being confident enough to go, no, we're not doing that. We're not having that discussion. Right? That takes a lot of confidence, a lot of experience. If I had learned the power of no earlier on, it would have really helped in my career. And again, I think a lot of it, you can't just teach. It just needs to come through experience. Right? There's certain things you can't just impart on somebody. They got to experience themselves. And I gotta tell you, it's, it's a very freeing thing to be able to say in a meeting to a client, no, no, we don't do that, without emotion. We don't be unprofessional, but the answer is no. End the discussion.

Right, because they tend to ask until they do hear no.

Absolutely. And that's my point. A lot of salespeople think they got to hurt yes to everything. No, it's very freeing. We don't have to keep having this conversation. The end. The answer is no.

And I'm sure you've seen a lot of either first-time sales leaders or sales leaders that aren't getting the success that they want, what are they typically doing wrong?

Yeah, you know, I, again, I think early sales leaders are trying to take on too much themselves, right? Like, you know, they— I've had, you know, 5 different RVPs reporting to me at Salesforce, and, you know, a lot of times they're wanting to do the deal for their rep. And, you know, does that scale? It just doesn't. If you have 8 direct reports and you're trying to close 8 of those direct reports' deals for them. That's some of the bigger mistakes I see is that, you know, it's good to be aware and engaged in every deal as a leader, right? You know, you don't want to talk to that sales leader that doesn't know what's going on in the deal, right? That's bad. But at the same time, you don't want to have a conversation where we're doing like we used to call war rooms, where we're getting in deep and the sales manager's answering for the sales rep. That's a problem.

Right.

That, you know, that right there is showing me a couple different things. Either they don't trust what the sales rep is doing. Or worse yet, they're doing that rookie thing that you just asked about, which is they're trying to close all the deals themselves. Feels like hell. And that's where, you know, you're gonna miss stuff, you're gonna screw up, and you're not gonna close the business you're looking for. So that's probably the first and foremost thing I'll say is that, you know, they're trying to do everything for their team. And that's definitely been part of the problem. And then, you know, some of the others, you know, not everybody's cut out for the job. You know, I've seen some great salespeople not be great managers. And then coaching them back to, you'd be better off owning this global account. You know, this is better for you, this is better for the company. You know, and that's, again, that's a tough discussion to have, but it's not a firing. It's like, this is a career path. I care about you and what you're doing. You're going to be better served doing this.

Cool. Hey, I really appreciate your time today, Joe. Where can people go to connect and learn more about you and your company?

Well, I'm, I'm very active on LinkedIn these days. You know, when I was an individual sales rep, I didn't really care about LinkedIn as much. Over the last 10 years, I've been a lot more active in that, uh, platform. So, you know, hook me up at linkedin.com. Those that know me know I, I help a lot of people. You know, just last week I spoke to 60 high school students and, you know, tried to demystify the process they're going through. I'm like, you know, one of the things I told them, I said, don't be afraid to raise your hand and say, I don't know. That's the hardest thing to do is raise your hand in a group scenario and go, I don't know what you just said. I guarantee you there's 10 other people in the room that had the same question, you know. Um, so I say that, you know, I'm very active on LinkedIn. Just connect to me there. Reach out, I'll help. I mean, I, I've been very fortunate in my career, both professionally and personally, and, uh, I enjoy helping people out. I really do. And now this is, you know, an avenue to do that. And I love what you do, Brian. I really do. And don't stop the, uh, the cynical ideas out there that challenge, because the challenge is a good thing, right? It's the debate.

It gets the discussion.

Yeah, so I love what you do.

One of the things I hope you're getting out of these interviews is that to develop these advanced selling skills requires first knowing about them. Second is coming up with a system, and it's not necessarily my system. Hopefully it's your system, how it matches your personality, your style, and your market so that you can feel comfortable with it. But you also need to understand what the other person is thinking to build a great system. Because without a system, we're trying something new each time. If you've ever seen kids, uh, who don't understand the rules of a game, And you give them, say, a baseball bat or a tennis racket or a bowling ball— doesn't matter. Watch what they do. They do what, what comes naturally to them. They're winging it. But what— that winging it is rarely the right way of doing it. They usually need a little bit of a coach, somebody to show them how to hit the tennis ball, how to Roll the bowling ball. And then it becomes a lifelong practice of how to do it better and better. And that's like everything in life. So what you first have to find out is what is the right use of that approach? What is the right way to do it? Then develop the better, better, better, better, better way of doing it and learn the distinctions. What most people are doing in sales today is just winging it and winging it based off of what the client wants to do. And the client, like us, is not really, let's say, aware of what needs to be done so often. So if we don't know and they don't know, who knows? Well, we know how to give a proposal, but do they know how to get you a purchase order?

Uh, hmm.

And if they don't, what happens to your deal? Or what if they don't learn the right way or learn fast enough or forget a step? What if you knew what they had to do and you could guide them, that you could understand where you are and the risks that are going to be faced by your deal. Because the default is not to buy your stuff. It may be if it's repeat business. But if you're in the beauty contest sales where you're competing against other people, or yet this is a new initiative and you've been talented enough to get your product in there, does that person understand how to get it done. In Winning the Complex Sale and Closing the Complex Sale, what I teach is how to keep it moving. There's a very dangerous spot in the sales process that we typically all fall into when they— then there's a certain amount of excitement and they clearly want the product and we Walk right into the trap, and the trap snaps, and we don't know that we're in it until we get ghosted. We get the, I'll call you next week, I apologize, I need to cancel. Uh, you check in 3 or 4 times, no, no answer. How do we prevent that? Imagine how many of those deals, if they closed, how that would have an impact on your life, your income. Your ability to enjoy selling. You need to understand how to use the baseball bat, how to use the tennis racket, how to roll the bowling ball. And your company doesn't know. Here's a little secret. Most salespeople don't know. Most sales managers don't know. How do I know that? I talk to them all day long. I see their comments on my posts, and I love when they Argue with something where they say, oh, the customer knows their decision-making process. Okay, what is it? No one can answer. Oh, well, I, I take this and I go talk to Mr. Big Cheese, and Mr. Big Cheese signs it. And okay, yep. And that deal is going to close? Of course it will until the end of the quarter. And it doesn't. Why don't we learn, get our ego out of the way and put our wallet in front of our ego? Because our wallet is a lot more important than our ego. Your ego will let you feel a little bit more comfortable once in a while, but it's a false comfort. It is a sugar pill, not anything real. Check out the courses at b2brevenue.com. Take your game to the next level. And let me ask you one last question. When you look ahead, a year seems like a good amount of time, doesn't it?

It does.

It does to me. And I was doing this little experiment on, you know, planning. And I go, I look ahead, you know, a year, 3 years, 5 years. It seems like a huge horizon. But then you can say, okay, let's look back a year. I take out my calendars. Let's look back 3 years, 5 years. And you're like, that went by like, uh, the snap of a finger. Now guess what? The, the year ahead is going to go by even faster. One of the, uh, little tricks that life plays on us is as we get older, the, the feeling of time accelerates. It doesn't decelerate, meaning a year just clicks by. 5 years is a blink. So when you're thinking ahead and you think it's, oh, I got all this time, or, oh, I'll get to it when I can— get to it now. Because now, if you do it now, you'll get the benefit for the rest of that time. If you keep waiting and kicking the can down the road, it never comes and you never get the benefit of it. You just keep saying, oh yeah, I'll get to that. Go to b2brevenue.com, sign up today, take your game to the next level, make the type of money you deserve. We'll see you next time.

I was just going to give a bit of a testimonial if that's all right, just to kick it off.

Just only if it's positive.

No, it is positive. It was a— yeah, um, just because I started the course I think in June of last year, 2021. I got a few more months left of access, which is good, um, but I feel like it's been a transformative experience in my own personal and professional life. I was able to go from a period of a low sales slump in the middle of last year, in the summer and early fall, and then really was able to then come back and exceed my target by the end of the, by the end of the 4th quarter. And so the only other thing I would say is that it's also really differentiated me amongst people on the sales team in terms of focus. and clarity of what's important. And now I feel really good about what I'm doing in terms of the approach of reaching out to customers and having those conversations and being focused, as opposed to just doing a lot of the other busy work on the side, like organizing resources and doing business analytics and all this other stuff. And so it's really been a noticeable difference with our executive team at my company. And so I just want to thank you for the content and for these opportunities. And so I hope that helps if there's anybody new. It's— I'm a work in progress, but it's getting better.

Good.

Yeah.

And you're selling pretty hard stuff.