TOP LESSONS FROM A LIFETIME IN B2B SALES

Today's interview has a very important lesson, probably one of the best lessons that we can learn in sales, in that some of the things we need to become better at and some things we just don't need to do. And we may have either a bad habit or an annoying habit or a lack of something. The classic one is is the one we're going to be talking about today. That it's probably the dominant one in sales where we talk too much or kind of the side effects of talking too much, not listening, interrupting. It has a lot of side effects. And the interview isn't about just that. It's about how do you grow as a salesperson when you get into sales because You want to explore something new. You get sick of what you were doing and you want to become good at it. How do you do that fast? Let's get into the interview. I'll sum it up at the end. I'll also give some examples of the classic other ones that we see in all people regardless of what they do, but how they really affect us in sales because our income is based off of our effectiveness.

Here we go.

Hey, Ray, thanks for joining us today.

As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Morning, Brian. Thanks for having me. I've been in distribution sales for, gosh, probably about 28 years. Engineering, purchasing, project management, personnel management for You know, almost 2 decades before that. Yeah.

And why sales?

You know, it's funny. I ended up in sales kind of accidentally. I was dealing with people like me at the time. And I thought, you know what, I can do a better job than this. I should try. And that's what got me where I am.

And what did you see them doing wrong?

You know, there were lots of things, you know, not returning phone calls, not returning voicemails, you know, discussing one thing and quoting or then trying to push you into something else. And I thought, gosh, you know, that's just kind of bad form for me.

What did you want them to do?

Well, maybe actually follow through, do what they said they were going to do. Or, you know, if you're going to move me into something else, You know, tell me why you're doing it. Don't just send me a quote for something we never discussed and say, here. Here what? Come on, help me here.

Yeah.

So, no sales process.

And what was that first year like in sales?

Exciting. You know how it is when somebody gives you a territory and says, here's your territory and here's what it's doing and this is great. And then, you get in the territory and you go, uh-oh. This is nothing like what it was supposed to be.

Oh, somebody misled you?

Yeah, maybe a little. It was sink or swim. And, you know, I was committed. So, sinking wasn't an option.

Well, what was your motive other than just feeling you could do it better?

You know, there was— so, I worked nights, weekends, holidays. Anytime somebody was in the building, I had to be there. And so, I started my day at 6 o'clock in the morning and ended up getting home at 8 or 9 at night. And days like that went on and on and on. And I said, you know what? There's got to be a better way to earn a living for my family than this.

Yeah. And how did you learn to become good at sales?

You know, I think the advantage was being at a disadvantage, right? Not knowing what you don't know forces you to pay attention, forces you to listen, forces you to scramble to find things for people that actually work. And maybe sometimes it wasn't the straight line through, you know, sometimes you went around the block before you got to where you were going.

I always said, you know, because people talk about mentors all the time. But I've also had what I call anti-mentors, kind of role models of what you don't want to become. Ah, well, because in your situation, when you saw bad selling, when either it wasn't important enough to get back to them, or they were disorganized not to get back to you, or they quoted you something that served them better than you, Or it was a replacement or what they thought could be a replacement. You see, what not to do is just as important to see as what to do.

Absolutely. 100% true.

Yeah.

And when I see people, like when you're growing up, it's like, look at the people, you know, 5, 10, 15, 20 years ahead of you in age and time, and see how their lives turned out.

Yep.

And if it's what you want, that's a mentor. If it's what you don't want, that's an anti-mentor.

Yep, exactly. Exactly. You know, it's funny you mentioned that because I think at some point in our sales career, we all tend to become a little bit of the anti-mentor. And we kind of sabotage ourselves for a period of time before we wake up and realize what we're doing. And sometimes, that's someone else's perspective that's put to us. And sometimes, we wake up and we go, uh-oh. You know, and I don't think that anybody's trajectory in the sales business is straight up. I think we've all gone up and we've all gone down. And I think recognizing that is key and critical.

Yeah, because I mean that That first lull, what I call the B-player trap. And I can almost tell when I talk to somebody, when they— when you hear words like obviously or Sales 101, yet they don't do it.

Right.

Right.

So you're like, they know what the right thing to do is, but they're just not doing it.

Right. Right.

And that, that, you know, I, I think, I think to a certain degree, you, you, you get, you You hit a comfort zone and you go, okay, I can coast like this for a while. And then something happens and it knocks you off your high chair back down onto the floor. And then you've got to figure out how to scramble back up there again.

Yeah, because one of the things about B2B sales and working for somebody else, working for a company is that they're constantly resetting. your skill set and your goals. You do 200%, you lose half your territory and double your number. So now with one quarter of the opportunity, you have to hit the same amount.

Correct, correct. And there were a lot of people that told me, you know, don't worry about this because this gives you more time to focus on what's really important.

Focus on what's not mine.

You know, and for me personally, that actually worked, right? The non-buyers became the new buyers. And then everybody was amazed. They were like, how did he do that? You know, again, sink or swim, right? What are you going to do? We can only play with the cards we're dealt. And, you know, sometimes we don't get 4 aces in a hand. We have to do something.

Yeah, I'm always amazed at the people that would stay at a company because if they do that every year, eventually you're down to one department in one company.

Correct, correct. And, you know, and you see a lot of people, a lot of good people leave during that because they just don't have the ability to hang in there, right? They're immediately disillusioned And give up. And you say, gosh, but I've always found that you have more skin in the game if you've built it as opposed to if somebody else has built it and handed it to you and said, here, now go take care of this. When you've done it, you have a lot more doors to open, I think.

If you were to build a salesperson, Let's say you got CRISPR, or you were a gene PhD. What would, what would the ingredients be?

I think, I think the listening skill is way more important than the talking skill. I think, you know, the resourcefulness may even be worth more than the education. I think that The ability to— it's like you're working somewhere and they go, hey, the trash is full. Take out the trash. And a lot of people won't do that because that's not my job. It's beneath me. I'm not doing it. I think a good salesperson would pick up the trash can and run it out the back door and say, gee, that didn't take any time at all.

I think a lot of sales fits into that analogy. Where fighting it, ignoring it is much more expensive than doing it.

Absolutely true. And especially now, right, that the supply chain has kind of become the supply rubber band, and we've stretched it about as far as we can stretch it, knowing that that thing's going to come back and snap us in the hand at some point. You know, I think right now, It's almost a scary time to be in sales because of what we see coming on the horizon.

It's always been a scary time because it is, because just by nature, you got half your income at risk. The company, you know, looks at you, you're a player, but you're not like an engineer.

Correct, correct.

And it's assumed that you're up there to figure it out. How did you become good at sales? What were the steps, both the smart ones and the ones that were false positive?

So I think that, again, my disadvantage was my advantage, right? I started in this from a completely alternate universe, right? I was doing something else entirely. But, you know, I had to fix the stuff I was working with. And in fixing it, I realized, hey, there's something to this. And then going into the engineering world and finding out that, hey, all the pieces and parts that I'm familiar with are right here in front of me and learning about those pieces and parts. So, You know, listening skills. I listened because people were telling me, okay, here's what this is. Here's how it works. Here's what you do to fix it. And so, I realized that from the customer standpoint, there was a story that they were trying to tell me also. And some of them actually didn't have the hands-on experience that I had with the product. So, you know, they felt one way or thought one thing and actually didn't really get it, didn't really understand the synergy of it and how it works.

And what do you see other reps doing wrong that, well, if they only realized? Ooh, ooh.

You know, I think a lot of people A lot of people are out there doing a good job. I do. I think that, you know, some people have a tendency maybe to, you know, push their own agenda or be hung up with what they think is right. The fact of the matter is, you know, there's no 100% true right way to catch a fish, right? My 5-year-old was catching fish You know, when she was 5, she was catching fish and she was doing it the wrong way, but she was catching fish. Am I going to argue with the fact that she caught a fish and I didn't?

Because you were doing it right.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, you know, I think everybody's talent set is a little different. Everybody will bring something to the table in a different way. They'll figure out a solution using different tools. I don't know that any one of those is invalid if it gets the job done.

But like the listening, because there's a classic sales persona that has the gift for gab, but it just keeps going and going and going. And yet it works in a lot of situations. And you're right, they catch fish, but a lot of people are like, man, if he only slowed down and threw a pause in there every couple minutes.

But so, so I'll, I'll tell you the truth, I've heard that. That's been aimed at me.

I'm not the only one who noticed this?

Nope, nope, that's been aimed at me rather frequently.

Really?

And it's, it's, it's a completely conscious effort that I really have to focus on in myself.

And did someone point it out or?

Yes. Yes. So, sales managers at one point pointed it out. A few customers pointed it out and said, you know, you had me in the first 5 minutes of the presentation. You could have shut up and we could have had a really nice time together. You know, you cannot learn by not doing.

And how did you receive it at first?

Well, you know what? It hurt.

Of course.

It troubled me because I thought, boy, I did a good job. But, you know, sometimes a good job is less, right? Sometimes less is more.

And how long did it take before you were like, that was a gift?

Um, you know, it, it took a little bit. It— I actually had to own up to it. I actually had to stop and think about it and focus on it and realize that, by golly, that works, you know. But, but it wasn't instant. It wasn't, okay, I'm gonna change the way I'm doing everything from now on. It, it took Took a little time, right?

Our natural reaction is to negotiate, explain why.

Yep.

Yeah. Oh, I was just on a roll.

They were interested.

Oh, I thought you wanted more, that you were doing it for them.

Absolutely.

Who were you doing it for?

Well, it you know it's some sometimes. Sometimes it's just our natural nervous response to things, right? Sometimes we're trying to be the big man on campus.

You see it as your job. It's your role.

Yep. Yep. Yep. By golly, I'm going to educate you no matter what.

Yeah. Because that ability to tell somebody something that It's hard. It was probably just as hard for them to tell you as it was for you to hear.

And I, and I think that's probably true.

But the gift they gave you, it was probably worth like a college education.

Agreed, agreed. And I'm, you know, I, I am, I am thankful for every one of those experiences. You know, in retrospect, right? In the moment, I was like, well, this isn't nice. This isn't fair. But in retrospect, I say, wow, you know, somebody cared enough to tell me the truth. That's important.

And I say this, the fastest way to get good at anything is to be able to hear those things and accept them.

Agreed, agreed. And, and that's, that's why, you know, I, I love your videos because, you know, not only do they make those points, but they make those points in a way that's palatable and understandable. And, you know, okay, there's nice scenery in the background and your facial expressions are priceless 90% of the time, but, you know, the real lesson is not in what you're acting out, but in what you're actually saying.

Yeah, because I had— when I first became a sales leader, I had a rep, and he was a great guy, likable, but you could not get him to stop talking. He'd get on a roll, and it was a good 15-minute little monologue. And then one day he said, he goes, I don't know why I can't connect with people. And I go, do you want to know why? And he said, yeah. And I told him and he said, I gotta go. And I go, uh-oh. Yeah, because I was probably not as polite and soft about it. I was a little annoyed because it's like, here you are telling me why you're not selling.

Right.

And then asking me to tell you why you're not selling.

Yeah, yeah, no, exactly, exactly.

But yeah, we didn't talk for a week after that. And then when we did, he goes, I gotta tell you, you know, I talked to my wife and she goes, he's right. And it was the first time she ever shared that with him. And then he goes, why didn't you tell me sooner? And that was on me.

Yep.

Yep.

What are some of those other things that if people heard early in their career that it is like hundreds of thousands of dollars in lost deals, opportunities?

It's weird how much of this ties back to listening. But the customer will always give you the tell, right? If you're picking up on it. We tend to pick up what we're comfortable with, what we know. We tend to react with what we're comfortable with and what we know. And sometimes, the sale is outside of my comfort zone. You know, the real sale, right? The little sale. Yeah, I can pick that up. But the bigger undertone is, you know, if you get this figured out, then that comes. And I think, you know, it really all ties back to listening. It does.

Well, because listening is not just not talking. It's hearing the words and then digging into the understanding behind the words.

Correct, as opposed to formulating your next response.

But when you start looking at listening, listening means I've got to try and understand what's going on here, which gets you out of the I-know-it-all comfort zone. I know what's going on out there.

Correct, correct, absolutely true.

And then it You know, what comes before listening is curiosity. Why am I listening?

There you go. There you go. And that's key and critical. You bring up building curiosity, you know, building interest. You know, I can give all the elevator speeches in the world. If the customer has no interest, you know, I'm just breathing air.

Because a lot of like these gift companies approach me. And I'm like, well, you understand when you send somebody a gift to have a meeting, like somewhat of a bribe, but you're really not getting their interest. You're renting their interest.

It's true.

So you do—

you haven't created interest.

Correct.

You rented it.

Correct.

What we want to do is create it.

Yeah, save it.

Save your gift until after that meeting when it goes well, as opposed to using it to get Yes, right, as, as your follow-up, as a sign of appreciation, as a reminder, as a top of mind.

There you go.

Something they want.

There you go, there you go. And, and some people have been successful with, with the gift-giving bribe, um, you know, so, so, you know, there's, there's equal data that says, you know, The people that sent cookies and said, I'd like to have a meeting with you, that isn't without all merit, but—

Not at all, right? If they like cookies, and maybe there was some curiosity or there's some brand awareness that, oh, I should take the meeting. And I think everyone appreciates when you get something, no matter how It shows a little bit of effort and certainly some cash.

Yeah.

But people also appreciate you being curious about them.

Correct.

Hearing them out.

Yes, yes. And I think in today's world, we're focused on getting in, getting out, making the deal. We've totally missed the whole personal side of things, right? That You know, when you sit down with someone and they talk about their kids in college or their, you know, 2-year-old who just took their first step or said their first word and they're happy and they're proud and they want to share that moment with you and you're sitting there going, can I have the PO yet? It doesn't go.

Well, that's it because they hire salespeople because there's some gap that's missing between the web page and the customer.

Right.

It's our job to fill that gap.

True.

And it's not that we are a better web page, we're a better person.

Yes.

The other person wants another person to understand what they're trying to accomplish, make sure they get what they need and all they need, and get it done right.

Yes, yes.

Otherwise you could have a web page.

Right. Or the CRM, right? It always cracks me up when I see in a CRM page, you know, what's the customer's birthday? What's his wife's name? What are his kids' names? And I go, I've never filled that out because I never felt like that data should be handed to the next guy. He should earn that data for himself, right? Not read it off some script that I left behind for him to follow. You know, if you haven't made that connection and you don't know his wife's name or his birthday, that's on you.

Right. And I think a lot of people misunderstand the personal small talk piece because I think you need to be able to talk to that, but you need to also have conversations about what the person cares about at work. to that isn't related to your product.

Correct. Correct. And you find all kinds of internal company data when you get to that point, right? It may be your next contact. It may be their next problem. It may be that somebody's standing in the way of your sale that you think, oh boy, I'm on the verge of a big sale. Maybe not, but that data gets relayed to you.

And I think people don't value that part, and then they wonder why they're being treated like a transactional rep versus a partner in crime.

Correct, correct. And we don't all have customers that, you know, you can make a decent living on being a transactional rep, right?

Well, insert not a good living.

You're not going to be in the top 10% by being transactional.

Correct.

You got to be part of the family.

Yep. Yep. You, you, you want to be the first guy they call and the last guy they call.

What skill or ability do you wish you had more of or better of that would take your career to the next level?

Um, you know, maybe, maybe if I could— and this really all comes back to listening— if I could listen better, I think it would help. You know, I've got a pretty good memory. If somebody says something, I have a tendency to log it. If somebody spits out a part number, I have a tendency to remember it. Email addresses and phone numbers, they're all locked up in my head. But finding the undertone, navigating that, that is a skill that I wish I could do better. I wish I could do more of that.

I always found the key is to find out what they care about. Not the sport, kids, wife, all that stuff. That's easy. But are they looking for a promotion? Are they looking to make a move? Are they looking to be a manager? Are they looking to leapfrog the competitor? Because that is adjacent to our product.

It is.

But that's what they want to talk about.

Yep.

Yep, you're right. You're right.

Hey, Ray, I appreciate your time today. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

Boy, that's a good question. They can certainly reach out to me on LinkedIn and get me. My cell number's listed and my email address for the company is listed. But But the cell number that's there is my personal, so they, they can reach out to me there for sure.

Now, don't you wish you had somebody who would tell you that, or do you? Do you think it would take a while to get over the pain? Everybody thinks they can handle it until they have to handle it. And I think I've had people tell me early in my career, and I didn't handle it Well, and the people I've done it to didn't handle it well. The thing is, sometimes until it gets to that level of directness, of clarity, of precision, and holding you accountable and not letting you wiggle away, do people really start to understand it. Now, there's this list that I've posted on LinkedIn quite often about the 10 things that require no talent, and pretty much If you did those things, you're a decent human being. And they're just the basics of like showing up, showing up on time, showing up prepared, doing a little bit extra, having a positive attitude, asking questions, you know, real basic things. You can search the internet. It's all over the internet. And the thing is, I bet 100% of people who read that go, yeah, I'm pretty good at that. Yeah, I got that covered. But then they're like, well, why were you late to the meeting? Oh, well, traffic. This came up.

I got a call.

Oh, I got a distraction and this thing or that thing. And I hear it all the time, especially— Well, in sales, we tend to either be proactive or reactive, and most people are reactive. So as soon as something changes, the fire drill goes off. And they go the other way. The problem is that person that you hosed over doesn't feel very good about that. You may not think it's a big deal, but they do. When you're late, it's not you think it's a big deal, they do. When you don't follow through or you mislead or you're overly optimistic, all of these things. The fastest way of finding out what you need to do to improve is make a list of the things that annoy you. That annoy other people, and just hold yourself accountable to these things. Now, I've had one engineer who told me that, I just can't be on time. I go, yeah, you choose not to be on time. He goes, well, there's traffic. And it's like, well, you left after the time you were supposed to be here. So if there was no traffic and you flew in a plane, you would would not get here on time. And it's just this, um, people not wanting to face it, thinking it's something outside of their control because it requires them to change. But we all know that this is the fastest way to get better. That person, uh, is going to be limited in his career because of that mindset that he cannot possibly be on time. It's just BS. I'm sorry. If you won the lottery and you had to be on time, you would be on time. You're on time for the job interview. You're on time for the first day. You just choose to be not on time when you think you can get away with it. And this is what we see in a lot of people. And salespeople are the ones that can almost never get away with this. And what it goes to is more than just the basics, like showing up on time. It is listening. It is being curious. It is taking your time. And if you've ever been on a call with a salesperson who did not listen, did not ask questions, did not show interest or curiosity in you, what you're up against, what you're facing, That is not a conversation. That is a monologue. And it is not the exception. It's kind of the rule. I work with managers all the time. And the first thing they say is babysitting. And what babysitting is, is that those basic 10 things aren't covered. And the manager expects those covered. Get those covered. Just like whatever it takes. If those things are a struggle Everything else is going to be a wall. And I don't mean to belittle anybody about this, but it's just— it's grow-up time in those things. Now, the listening and the quiet time— really watch the video of this interview. I think you'll get a lot out of it. And if you're struggling with how to be good at it, Start the Conversation, Get the Meeting is all about this. It's about How do you start a business conversation about what they care about and build it into something that you care about? This is a skill. We're in sales. This is a performance profession. It's how well you do it, not that you know how to do it. Everyone can learn how to do it. Very few can do it well. And that's the major difference. And once you get that mindset, The basics have to be covered, and then you have to build from there. Watch his eyes in the video. I can just tell he's still working on that listening part, and that's good because he's become really good at it. Check out the courses at b2brevenue.com. Make sure you're listening to the other podcasts, Sales Questions, Brutally Honest Answers, the B2B Revenue Leadership Show, and the Sales Leadership Show. We'll see you next time.

Bye.

Thanks for listening. Here's some excerpts from a one-on-one that I did with one of the students in Start the Conversation, Get the Meeting course. Now, this person really embraced the course after a while. It took a couple of one-on-ones for him to try each step. He kind of fought it, tried to make it work within his current model, and That really didn't have this type of success. And then after he started, he started to get meetings. He started to get conversations. He started to get all the things that I was telling him about. And he started to get excited about it. He started to see the results that I tell you about where his week was full of meetings.

Now, I'll let you hear this out.

I deleted out kind of the specifics of the steps and the tools and the approach, but they're all in the course. If you're already in it, please listen to the full one-on-ones. When you hear the success that people are having, it's not just the steps. It's the matching of the steps with the appropriate actions and pacing. And then you get people asking to talk with you, which is the goal, which is the fun. So let's listen to it and I'll sum it up at the end and give you kind of an idea and recommendation if you want to take advantage of this.

And it's crazy. This week, this week I'm full of meetings. I was like, what's happening? And like, I, what I did was I baked in, like, I just, I'm very generic, and people are like, oh, like, like, tell me more about you. Like, immediately, I have like 3, 4 meetings. Like, I already had 2 this, and, and based on the, on the, on the parameters that you suggested for me, like, oh, go after these bigger companies, X amount of employees. So then— By the time I'm talking to them, I already know that, okay, they typically have budget. I mean, assuming LinkedIn is correct with the employee size, some of it was off, but it's like, okay, there's still like a deal. It can still happen. And, but yeah, I was like, whoa, this is like, I limited to like 30 connections a day. So then that way it's not like, it doesn't go crazy. Cause I remember one of the reps, So do about 30 a day. Like I said, like this week, like 4 or 5 meetings. And they're good meetings, you know, and it's just conversations. Like I say, it's not about like pitching, but it's about working them up to that point where it's like, okay, yeah, we do need to advertise.

So after teaching this for quite a while, here's the steps that you should take. Take the course once quickly through it. Find both one-on-ones and office hours that speak to the persona that you want to talk with, whether it be the CEO, the CMO, CRO, developer, marketer, whoever it is that you want to talk to. Because we break it down in gory detail. We break down the persona and what they care about. And then try each step. Try it with your friends. Try it with your coworkers. And start to see the results. Now, most people will fight me on it. They'll spend the first month, 2 months trying to make the system fit into their pitchy email and cold calls. And it works a little better. But it works a whole lot better when you apply it because each step and each pause in between each step has been designed over time to be very effective. And then when you start to see the results, all of a sudden people are replying. People are asking you. People are wanting to talk with you, want to understand what you do. It's almost turning cold outbound into warm inbound. Now, are they in market? No, no, they're not. But they're a little curious. And it's up to us. And I show you in the course, how do you build off of that instead of us Telling everybody how great we are and hoping they can understand why they need us. And instead of them arguing about why they don't need us. Because until you have active pain, everyone's in denial. Think about going to the doctor. Okay, you kind of know you need an operation, but you're like, can I get a prescription? And the doctor's like, He has to ease you, or she has to ease you into the process. Well, let's take an x-ray. Let's see what we're working with here. Oh, can I— how about just a shot? Can I just get a shot till the next time I come in? Then he flips the x-ray up on the light and he points to something. He goes, that's what we're dealing with. That doesn't heal on its own. You have to have surgery for that. He has to build up to that until We build up that latent pain into active pain that— and properly diagnose it and get people to think about what happens if they don't have that operation. They're going to avoid it at all costs. That's why the cold pitch doesn't work. You're just igniting the denial. You're not igniting interest or curiosity. It's just— Igniting the denial.

Denial.

So check out the course. Start the conversation. Get the meeting. It's all at b2brevenue.com. There's an overview video in the show notes, on my YouTube channel, and on my LinkedIn profile. Pretty much everywhere I am, as well as the website b2brevenue.com. Check it out if this is what you need. You know, this student Zero sales experience, but really, you know, just gobbled up this. And the people who gobble it up the fastest and the best are people who try it and get success. It has nothing to do with knowledge. It's like learning how to do a sit-up doesn't give you a 6-pack. You have to do the sit-ups. They're not fun at first, but then you get used to them. And you start to like appreciating them. And then you start to get the connection between how you look and what you do. And so you start doing the things that make you look better. This is what we have. It's not just knowledge. It is applying it, taking feedback, polishing it up, and applying the system to your clients.