WHAT IF YOU HAD A SYSTEM TO BECOME GREAT AT SALES

What if you were selling into a really hard space and it was phone only? How hard would that be? Every day just getting in there and pounding the phones trying to find people in a really tough market where timing is critical. Where you have to start the sales process sometimes 9 months, a year ahead of time. Sound familiar? Well, that's what we're going to talk about today. And then the other elements. How do you get Better at it? How do you keep your mind open to improvement? How do you have that performance mindset? Not the knowledge one that everybody has, or the I'm the best. That doesn't get you better. That gets you— you kind of sink backwards. And sales every day is a performance. Every sales call is a performance. It's how well we do it, how well we connect with that other person. And how do you get better at it? You have to work with other people. You have to be open-minded. You have to look for what can get improved. And the question that I always use on myself that keeps me out of the B-player trap is, I assume I'm wrong. Instead of assuming that you're right. If you assume you're right, that's confirmation bias. If you assume you're wrong, you You got to get curious about how you become better. So let's get into the interview. I'll sum it up at the end. Really, if you're in the courses, make sure you check out the office hours. We had one yesterday. It was really fun. I gave an example of somebody who's in both courses and is on his second job and he's just crushing it. And we show his exact workflow. It's also in the one-on-ones. And start the conversation, get the meeting. Here we go with the interview.

Hey, Adam, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Thank you for having me, Ryan. I have been in sales for quite a long time. I started telesales over the phone back in early 2000s. And so I've pretty much been doing that ever since. And then recently, I guess recently, 10 years ago, started doing call coaching with my teammates and my team members and then got into the player coach role. And so I'm still doing the player coach role to where I'm still doing a little bit of sales with specific accounts and territories, but it's also managing a little team and call coaching and doing what managers do.

Yeah. And why sales?

Um, couldn't do anything else, Brian.

That's pretty much why we do it, isn't it? I mean, Harvard wasn't calling.

If they did, they must have the wrong number.

Yeah.

But no, I was gonna actually got my degree in teaching. And right before I was gonna go into teaching, I got a job opportunity to go out to Colorado and make $34,000 instead of $25,000. And I was like, that sounds good to me. So from then on out, it was pretty much going into sales and being in the business world.

And how— what was the adjustment like? This is— it's a little bit like teaching, right? There's a lot of communication, a lot of empathy, a lot of trying to understand where the other person's at?

Uh, I mean, I didn't ever really teach, so it's hard to compare. But I mean, there is still a lot of, uh, especially now over the last 5 or 6 years, accountability is, you know, becoming more and more in sales. And that was one big thing going into teaching was, you know, we're going to be watching to see what you're doing, and then we're going to make sure that you're doing it right. And, you know, there's a developmentally appropriate way to teach and so forth and so on.

So And kind of the same way, how long did it take before you became either comfortable or good, or did it happen at the same time?

At sales?

Sales, yeah.

Oh gosh, um, is that next year?

Comfortable?

I mean, I still, you know, depending on the call and depending on the demo, there's still some butterflies and nerves, um, because you're still— I mean, you're selling yourself. And so I mean, I'd say I'm comfortable. If someone says that I'm good, then I'll say okay. But, you know, it's— I've been successful. I've had successful years. So that started, I guess, maybe in a 2006, 2005 range.

Okay.

As far as being— putting both together.

Yeah. And what helped you along the way? Did you have a good role model and team around you, or was it books or practice or sheer determination?

Um, it was— well, I had a good manager first starting out with. Um, I get, I guess, more mentor who helped coach me and give me kind of help me, uh, on the process to where, you know, I was getting into sales like, oh yeah, this is easy, all you can do is call and talk to people. And then—

That's a great—

Or you talk at them. Uh, and I, uh, when I first started, literally we were recording calls way back then I'd get off the phone, run into my manager and say, oh, I just had a great call. And she'd say, all right. She'd ask me this question. I couldn't answer it. She'd ask me this question. I couldn't answer it. She'd ask me that. She goes, go call them back. And I was like, are you serious? She's like, yes, go call them back because you have no idea what's going on. And so that was kind of the, the way I learned, uh, trial by fire. And eventually when I went in to talk to her and say, hey, I had a good call, I could answer every question that she had to ask me. And so that's when I knew I was starting to Understand the process a little better.

Yeah.

And was it that they didn't teach you that, or you just got so into the rapport and it was flowing and you just went with it?

Uh, I mean, we— they were teaching, and it was, you know, I guess it's kind of the same idea as it is now. You think you know, uh, right? I mean, now I practice Socratic wisdom where I know I don't know anything and that's better for me because then it's easier to go and learn it. But it was, it's a lot because back then, I mean, sales over the phone, consultative sales over the phone, the long sales process. I mean, you know, I was thinking about, you know, talking to you today. I mean, I was selling software and hardware before we had WebEx and Zoom and everything. So I was selling software and hardware without doing any demos.

Yeah.

So it was a really intense conversation type of sale. And so, I mean, it was trial by fire. I mean, a lot of, you know, as group sessions, we'd listen to calls and, you know, peer coaching and everything else.

And we had—

we did sales classes, um, we had sales coaching and, and all of that from the outside people back then, which really helped, uh, kind of formed my foundation. Uh, but it was, you know, it was make a call, uh, go over it, make a call, go over it. And that's it. Yeah, that's, that's You know, that's how I learned. It was, it was helpful. Um, so that was the start of it.

Well, that was really what helped me because I was mostly in the field. You do, you prep for the call, you do the call, and then you go get coffee and you tear the call apart.

Yes.

And, and it was a 4-legged sales call almost always, but super technical stuff.

Well, yes. Well, when it got into the technical stuff, I mean, you know, I, we were, I was selling to early childhood and education. So if the IT guys got on back then, I would definitely need some help. But, uh, yeah, there's a lot of different prongs in the sales process and the phone call, you know, 5, 6, 7 phone calls before you really, really solidify the opportunity back then. And so it's, I mean, in a way it's, it's similar now, except now you get right into the software. Your goal is to get a demo so you can do the demo and Start that process.

And was there a particular pivot point or epiphany early in your career that kind of got you from, um, to get exponential type growth?

Yes, yes.

I—

there were a couple of the sales courses that we were able to be a part of at where I was kind of really helped me see that, um, you, you can't make anybody buy anything. Like sales, everyone thinks the sales is you go in there and, oh yeah, I'll sit down and when I walk out I'll have a purchase order. order. And I've still to this day said you can't physically make anyone buy anything, but they've really understood that it's a conversation and it's relationship. And the oldest, the oldest adage out in sales is people buy from who they like. And so I tell my guys now that, listen, you want them to call and say, I want to buy from Adam. You don't want them to buy from ePlan. You want them to buy from Adam. And so if they say that, then you're, you're in pretty good— you're in the driver's seat as far as depending on who you're working against.

And what does that like mean to you?

Likability?

Likability would be trust. I think especially in this business, um, that's the one thing that you get to take with you. The only thing I really think you can take with you, uh, when you go from different positions, but it's the trust factor where it's not, uh, you're not selling at me. I'm not talking at you. We're having a conversation.

We're building rapport.

You ask me questions that I'm able to answer them. I ask you questions and then It's a, it's a relationship that's built over time, uh, because, you know, some sales cycles take 12 months, some take 5 years, and that whole time you got— you're working, you're still trying to get the sale, and you're still trying to figure out, do we fit? Does it work? I mean, what's the purchasing process like? Oh my gosh, you gotta do an RFP now. Oh my God. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's a relationship that's built over time, and I built a lot of good relationships back in the old days because, I mean, I did one job per 16 years. So, um, yeah, yeah.

And if you have that likability, I think they are willing to talk with you.

Oh yes.

Or maybe even want to talk with you.

Yes. And, and when you call and they're in the middle of a meeting, they say, hold on, I got to take this, it's Adam, or it's, you know, you're the only sales guy I talk to, then, you know, I don't know if they're just saying that, but it makes me— makes you feel good.

Well, you know, people think, well, if you have all this value, then they're going to talk to you no matter what. And it's like, yeah, in some cases, but most of the time we don't have that type of value. We have— yeah, yeah, we have a nice level of value. But if you are able to build rapport with them, care about them, talk about what they care about, they want to talk with you.

Yes, the most important person on the call Is them.

Why can't—

why is that so hard to grasp?

I don't know. I don't know. It's, it's, it's the— it's, you know, there's a couple words that I just try not to get them to use, and I is one of them. But yeah, I mean, when you're on that call, that call is the only thing that matters. Your cell phone rings, you don't look at it. Your other customer calls in, you don't take it. I mean, that used to be one of the things— I'd be on a call and, oh my gosh, that's, that's my, that's my big sale calling in. But I would focus on the call I'm on because I don't want to— I wouldn't want somebody to drop a call for me to go talk to someone else, so I'm going to treat them like I want to be treated.

Now, that educational— that's who you were selling to, education?

Yes, sir.

That's a tough space.

Uh, yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's got its advantages and disadvantages, I think, just like every market.

Well, you know, because it's not well funded typically, right?

Um, it— yeah, I mean, they always have They always have money. They just— not money for you.

Yeah, I guess that's true.

Yeah.

Well, and they, they don't know how to buy, right?

Yeah, it's, it's, it's an— I mean, it's an educational process with the whole, you know, selling and everything else. Because, I mean, shoot, back then putting computers in early childhood classrooms, we got laughed at. It's like, we're not going to spend that money to put it in there for a 5-year-old. That's just a waste of time and money. But so there's a lot of educating the customer on what was appropriate and talking to them about advantages and disadvantages and benefits and everything else. So, um, yeah, it, I mean, it was a long process and they're, I mean, not always easy, especially over the phone.

And what kept you at one company for such a long run? I mean, it's a great run.

Thanks, uh, money.

No, honestly.

Oh, rewind. Um, no, um, as I got better, I became, you know, a part of the team and, uh, started doing the call coaching, which I really like, uh, teaching and helping others. Um, and just, you know, become, you know, not really moving up because I didn't go that high, but it was still, I mean, it was, as you put in the time, you want to still reap the benefits. And so if you're going to do it for a while, Yeah, it was, it was worth staying.

And why go into leadership? What was the drive there?

Yeah, I mean, it's a little bit of selfishness with not wanting to make phone calls every day anymore, thinking that, you know, if I, if I could help other people do it, then I didn't have to sit there and, you know, do the call blocks and dial out, you know, 30, 40, 50 times in the morning and then rinse and repeat in the afternoon. It was, you know, a little bit of a burnout. But it was also, uh, people would come to me anyway and, you know, say, hey, I'm about to do this call, how would you handle it? And so I got to the point where I enjoyed helping people succeed just as much as I, you know, I succeeded. So that was, that was kind of a natural step. And we had a void, our sales leadership just left. And so it was like, well, what are we going to do? Well, we're Well, me and another senior rep stepped in and kind of keep the ship together until we found someone else to step in.

Yeah. And what was that like when you first started doing it? Because a lot of people, if it's not done your way, because there's— and I think that's the hard part about sales is you don't want to copy someone's personality.

Right. And you got— I don't think you can. I mean, I think the good thing, one of the good things about being at that company so long is all the top salespeople that were there that I learned from and that were my equals and peers, we were all different, different personalities, different styles, different conversations, different questions. But the foundation of how sales is supposed to work was ingrained in all of us. So there's a foundation, but if you talk to all 4 of us, you'd be like 4 different people.

Yeah.

And the result was the same. So it was, yeah, you can't copy anybody. You still have to be you because if you're not, it, it comes across. If you're trying to be ingenuine on the phone and trying to, trying to be someone that— it's, it comes across, I think.

Definitely. And what did you typically see them doing that you thought you could help them improve on?

How much time do we have? Um, but I guess, uh, I tried to break it down into part versus whole teaching, um, to where, you know what, but it's— you have to set the tone of the call, uh, set, you know, the questions you ask are very important and the information that you gather is just as important. So my thing that I tried to— I mean, the, the easiest kind of Closed-ended versus open-ended questions. I always said there's 6 words that are going to keep you from making money, and there are 6 words that are going to let you make money. And so we would just go over the calls and I'd say, hey, that's a good question, but just change this one word and they're going to talk for 35 seconds instead of saying no. And so that gives— for me, getting 30 more seconds was the goal, because 30 more seconds, you're trying to get 30 more seconds, trying to get 30 more seconds. And so That's kind of how we started breaking it down back in the old days before all the data and all the analytics that we have now, uh, because information gathering was important. And so—

What were those 6 words that get us money? We don't need to know the ones that lose us money.

It's the, it's the open-ended questions. It's the who and what and why and how and when, um, because those are questions that hopefully are going to allow people to answer it. Yes, yes. And so, I mean, I hear it all the time. Are you guys, are you guys looking at new software? Well, of course the answer is going to be no, because you're a salesperson. No one wants to talk to a salesperson. So it's, you know, just little things like that was how we started.

Yeah. How about like either not talk or talking too much or talking over somebody or not digging into the answer?

Uh, that is sometimes when I, when I think, when I think salespeople in general, when we get excited, we think we got to say something. We think we got to fill the void. And sometimes I'll still catch myself today trying to say something before they get done talking. Um, so it's, it's all practice. I mean, practice makes permanent. I learned that in basketball camp when I was 12 years old. And so if, you know, if you keep doing something the wrong way, you're gonna become very good at doing it the wrong way. But if you use just the— it is, it's, it's a fact. Um, but if, you know, it's, it's, it's practice. I mean, you still— I still self-evaluate it. If I have a bad call, absolutely, I'll go listen to it right now and be like, God, what were you thinking? Are you— when you do the— I mean, I could go on and on. You do the double questions. I don't know why. That's a nervous habit that new people do all the time. They ask a question and then cover it up with another question real quick because they're not sure if they asked the right question the first time. So there's, yeah, there's lots of different pieces of the call that you can focus on during a call session.

Yeah.

And how did you prevent them from taking it as a personal attack and keep it separate from the human? That, okay, that, that was a good question. How about this one? Why do you think they ran over it or they, they just said no?

Well, sometimes it didn't necessarily always stay separate, um, but it's, it's, I mean, it's not personal.

It's not.

And, you know, and it's, uh, you know, and, and one way I did that was we'd do call sessions with peers. So it wasn't just one-to-one. It was like, let's bring in 2 or 3 team members. Let's pick a call. Let's listen to it. And let's get the, let's get the consensus on what would be better or what was good and what was bad instead of just always one person trying to make the ultimate decision to say, This is good and this isn't. If you have 3 or 4 people saying, this would probably have been a better way to ask it, then the person you're working with is like, okay, I'll try that!

Yeah! And was there a particular approach that you used with them? You know, because the fastest way is to direct. Stop doing that! Right?

It's that easy too.

It can be.

It can be.

But then you might not have a coachee for much longer.

Um, it's more— it was more the direct approach. Um, you know, sometimes even now I'll, I'll use my calls instead of using your calls. I'll use my calls.

Yeah.

Um, and one of the things I started saying— I started, I think I started call coaching back in 2010. And, and one of the things I think I learned this from one of our sales coaches, there's no perfect call. Like, I've never heard one. I've never had one. Because if I do a call and I put it in front of you, Brian, you're probably going to give me a little feedback. So you probably could have done this better, or you could have done this better. So that's one thing I tell everyone. So don't think just because we want to tweak it to make it better doesn't mean it wasn't a good call. There's no perfect call. And so if you think you're having perfect calls, then Go work for somebody else because you're not going to be getting better if you're not trying to get better.

Well, somebody had a perfect call, but that's a different issue.

I'd love to hear it. I'd love to hear it.

Well, I think that mindset is the key. Yeah, performance mindset versus knowledge mindset. Yes, like you can get an A on a call. It's like you can Yeah, you get an A, but the A could not close, right? And you could have a C, but it closed. Yeah, right. So there's a false positive and a false negative sometimes.

And it's— and they're still, okay, well, what are we gonna do on the next call?

Yeah.

Or if they say that next time, try saying this instead and see what happens. And so it's, it's growing. I mean, I, I still— I mean, it's just It's a process. I've been, you know, calling for a long time, and, and I still— I, I could still take— I still take advice. We still go over calls and we prep for demos and everything else. It's not like it's just automatic.

Well, that's it. After 20-some years— and trust me, after 40 years it'll be the same thing— that, you know, you'll plan out your call, and then afterwards the best thing is to review it Yeah, great. Grade yourself. Give yourself a 1 to 10 or an A, B, or C. Yeah, and then you'll start to get that improvement.

Yeah, I mean, you have to self-evaluate because if— and I think you still have to work with other people to get better because it's not— if you're sitting in a silo by yourself trying to get to a million dollars or whatever it might be, whatever your goal is, you— I mean, I look at, look at some of the top golfers in the world still have coaches. Jon Rahm still has a coach.

They all do.

Kelly Cora still has a coach, it's her dad. But I mean, there's constantly— I mean, look at DeChambeau, he gets done with a round. But back in the day, Tiger Woods get done just squirts in the field and then he'd go to the driving range for 45 minutes afterwards before the next round. So I mean, if they're doing it, right, I can do it.

And think of how simple that is compared to talking to another human being. It's swinging a club against the ball.

Well, yeah, it's not that simple though. They make it look simple, but just the practice part. Yeah, yeah, it's— no, I'd got I get what you're saying, but you know, it's—

yes. This is what people don't understand about sales. There's a human being on the other end and they're all different.

Yes.

And it's up to us to adapt to them, to try and elicit out of them where they are, what they care about. Is it a match? Where is it on their priority list? What do they care about? Right.

Yes. It's a conversation. Yes.

And people are trying to put it into a database instead of— it takes a real analysis to get— understand, you know, did something go wrong? Or could it have been better? How could it have been better? Not just different, but better.

Yeah.

Well, one thing I still do today, to this day, if I don't offer to send you information. So if I'm on it, and new salespeople, old salespeople, they'll say, okay, what, Brian, why don't I do this? I'll send you some information, you take a look at it, I'll call you back and we'll talk about it.

Talk about the information.

Right. I, I, I try to get them like, listen, you have a conversation, you get them asking you questions, you get them to say, well, that's interesting, can you send me some information? Then it's a whole completely different scenario when they get an email from you because they've asked for it. And it's not something you're just kind of jamming down their throat because you couldn't have a conversation with. And so, yeah.

And that talent of starting a conversation with a stranger. Yes, it's something we're taught not to do as kids.

Right?

Yeah.

No parents, hey, kids, go out there and talk to some strangers.

Right? I mean, the lemonade stand in the driveway and everything else. But yeah, it's not— it's Not ingrained at the early age.

No.

And, you know, it's, it's a hard skill to develop. Um, if you were to build the perfect salesperson, what would it look like?

You know, yeah, I've seen some of your surveys, like what makes the best salesperson? What's the number one trait of a salesperson? I think because they're all different. I mean, personalities are different. I mean, I would— listening would be up there. I mean, real listening, not just, oh yeah, I heard what they said, but real— I mean, where you hear the words that are coming out of their mouths. Uh, and I guess really thick skin would also be one of them because it's not— it's, it's business. It's not personal. I mean, raise your hand if you've been hung up on. Um, you know, we, we were taught that as soon as, as soon as you're hung up on, call them right back. I mean, it's the oldest, you know, I'm sorry, I think we got disconnected. Of course we did.

I hung up on you.

Um, so I mean, there's so many different little, uh, I guess, pieces of a salesperson that, that make them good versus someone else who is different, that they're just as good. So I don't know if I can make one.

Um, but you probably interview them, right? You hire them, don't you?

No, we try. We— I mean, interviewing, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's the hard process, uh, for me. If I like you, you know, let's— I like them, let's hire them. And because I'd rather do that than go through 6 months of talking to 16 or 18 different people. It's like, gosh, I like 8 of them. But yeah, so I'm— I don't know if it's obviously not the best way, but I'm like, hire them. I like them. I think we can— they want to work. They say they want to make money. Let's find out.

Yeah. And is there any particular questions or what do you like about them when you like them?

And it's just the same thing as sales. It's a connection. It's, uh, the ability to ask questions, ability to like be in the conversation and, and be part of it instead of— and instead of when you're talking to someone else, always kind of look off somewhere else and then and do something. Hold on, do something else.

Their email.

Yeah, yeah. It's, uh, it's just like when you're standing in line at the grocery store for 10 minutes longer than you want, you end up having a conversation with the person behind you about the price of bacon going up. I mean, after a chance, you're like, oh, nice guy. But, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's a connection thing for me because I've done interviews, panel interviews, and gone like, oh, I think they'd be great, and everyone else, oh my God, they are perfect, and then a month later they quit. So it's, it's, you know, I don't— I've done the Myers-Briggs thing, I've done all of that stuff. And for salespeople, I'm— I've just never found a surefire way of saying this person is going to work.

Well, you know, because I've always studied it, you know, from day one, because I wanted to be the best. I was really motivated. And I always knew if I was the best, I'd make the most.

Right.

And a headhunter told me that. He goes, all I have to do is beat that guy over there. And I know I'm going to make more money. So, he liked to work with people to have friendly competition.

Uh-huh.

And I always would compare it and the skills, and it is super hard because everyone's got a different style— top-down, bottom-up, um, direct, around the, you know, a little bit smoother. Um, but a lot of them didn't have The intellectual curiosity to understand how the company works. Some people are just relationship people that, you know, if they will talk to me, eventually they'll buy. And some products are like that.

Yes.

Where they may— the client might just be lonely. Yeah, curiosity is a big piece. Anybody who would talk sports with, he would go and meet because he could talk sports all day, right? And I'd be there, oh God, are we going to get to business, please?

Yeah, yeah. It's— I mean, it's— there are a lot of salespeople out there and there's a lot of sales coaches out there. And gosh, when you're in a company, whether, you know, back in the old days when we were in the office, I mean, everyone knew how to sell. The marketing person knew how to sell, the IT guy knew how to sell, the Everyone had advice for you about what you need to do to increase your sales, but it's, it's the people that are actually doing it, uh, that put their, you know, ego on the line and say, no, no, I'll call them, I'll work on this, I'll hit this million dollars, or I'll get the $2 million. Because not everyone's gonna sit down and put in the time to dial the phone.

Yeah.

And to get no 60 times to get one yes and be like, yes. And get— and that, you know, that's the— that was your day.

And how did you build up that resilience, that grit to do that? Because I've had, you know, phone-focused jobs before, and that's hard.

Yeah.

Especially if you get no inbound.

Yes.

When you have long days networking and poking around, and, and if nobody knows the brand or the problem, you're really starting from scratch.

Yep.

Every call, the first, first 30 seconds, what is that?

You're what?

Your name is what? So yeah, I mean, that's— yeah, so that's— you got to be prepared. No matter how good you enunciate the name, no one's ever heard of it. So—

What kept you focused? You know, did you have a particular goal? Was it the, you know, the basketball and the sports training that just said, this is just part of it, this is just— you got to do this?

Well, yeah, that's how I was taught. That's how I saw other people succeed. Um, and, and really when I started, that was it. I mean, but it was— it came down to I want to make X.

Okay.

And so if I want to make X, I got to do Y. And so today I was like, you know, why are you in sales? I want to make money. And I'm like, okay, well, what money? Tell me what you mean.

What does that mean to you?

Yeah, because somebody will say, well, I just, you know, I want So my, my focus was, I guess, more the win. I mean, the win is great, and then depending on how much the commission is, it's even better. But it's, it really is the win. I mean, when someone calls and says, Brian, I've decided to go with you, I mean, God, I still get like a rush, like, yes, I did it. Yeah. Um, and then the commissions obviously is, is why you're in sales anyway, and that's the second piece. But it's more the— it, it might be the competition. It's more for me, it's relationship build because Literally after the sale, I can still call you up and we still have conversations about what's going on. And that's when, you know, that's kind of— that was— that's how I do things. It's relationship.

And when somebody hangs up on you or is rude or unsubscribed, all the, you know, the bad stuff that happens, how do you internalize it? What does it mean to you?

Oh, it's It's not internalized at all. It just means— I mean, some of my best friends, some of my best friends, like, uh, not best, you know, like professional friends, hung up on me the first time I called them. Because like you said before, we're calling in on— we're interrupting that in the middle of the day. They could be having the worst day ever and they're like, oh, right.

Yeah.

And then, okay, so I don't internalize it. I was like, that was obviously not a good time to call them. So I'm gonna wait a week and I'm gonna call them an hour later or an hour earlier during the day. And then they don't even remember hanging up on. Yeah, they literally don't know who you are. It's a brand new cold call.

That's it.

Everyone thinks they're gonna remember a year later. They don't remember a day later, never mind.

You remember cussing me out? I don't even know your name. You're not that important yet. So I didn't internalize it because it was like hang up, click, hang up, call again. Call somebody else.

And I think that should be part of like the first training, just immediately get a hangup and understand that it means nothing.

It's not personal.

I mean, personal— my first hangup, I had to go for a 5-mile run. I was so sad. I was like heartbroken. And I go, this is the life I chose.

Yeah.

How could anybody be so rude?

Yeah.

And sometimes, I mean, I'm not I'm not trying to— I mean, it's not your money. And that's why— I mean, why? I didn't do anything wrong. But you can't internalize. If you do, then I mean, that's some people, that's why they don't last.

Yeah.

I mean, that's what I mean. I have call blocks now because I know sitting down for 4 hours and getting no response and doing that, because some days are just brutal in phone sales. You got to take a break. I mean, it's not going to be a rainbows and butterflies every day.

And what did the money mean to you? Was it a house? Was it a family? Was it early retirement? Was it independence?

I got 2 daughters, Brian. I'm gonna be working till I'm 70. It was supporting the family. I mean, that was it. You know, I had just like, you know, a wife and kids.

So consistent like that. Yeah. It's not really have to, it's really a want to.

Oh yes.

But it's a permanent want-to.

Yeah, I mean, it was a, it was a want-to, it was a have-to. I mean, because I wanted to do what I, you know, I wanted to provide and everything else. And, you know, having a job was the first step, and then maximizing the opportunity was the second step.

Because I've talked to VPs who won't hire single people because they don't have the burn rate. Huh.

Yeah, I mean—

They know that they want— they'll take the high, but they won't handle the low.

I guess, I mean, I guess if your bills are zero, you don't really have to make a whole lot to live and eat oodles of noodles.

Have 5 kids in private school and you're like— and his manager knew he had, right? Yeah, that guy had to make a lot of money and had to work hard.

He's gonna be here. It's snowing, it doesn't matter. He'll be here.

Because the family thing, it's, it's a higher value.

Yeah, right.

As opposed to sports cars or vacations or suits or big dinners.

Well, for me, I had— I mean, I told everyone, I got my real boss is at home. So y'all say what you need to say, I gotta get back to work. Let's be honest.

And do you look for those type of things, those, you know, the big whys that'll drive people through You know, the Shawshank Redemption, you know, I crawled through a mile of that pipe to get out of here.

I, I might start now that you brought it up. That's a good point. I mean, it's not something that's really come up because, uh, you know, certain questions I guess you can and can't ask nowadays when you're talking to people. You know, I can't say, you know, so how many kids do you have?

Because I—

Or I don't think you buy sales.

Yeah, yeah, it's, you know, because the, the first answer is always, I like, you Yeah, I like money, I like people, I like variety, but there's a lot of jobs can get you that.

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, if I ask why sales, you know, what's the most important thing, I would like them to say money. Because if it's not, then it won't— if you're, you're not going to go through all the what you're about to go through for fun. And no matter how many— and no matter how many— yeah, and no matter how many good conversations you have, you're not going to sit there And do what needs to be done for you to be successful, just to have good conversations, because you can do that. You can be a waiter, you can be a bartender and have great conversations.

Yeah, go on the internet all day and have conversations. Maybe not constructive ones, but cool. Hey Adam, I really appreciate your time today. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

Uh, I'm on LinkedIn, uh, with ePlanSoft right now, and that's, that's my only social media outlet. I'm, uh, Too old to have Facebook.

What I got out of that interview was having that motive both intrinsically and extrinsically. Extrinsically, when you have a family that you have to fund, you have to be good at sales. It's a great forcing function. It's also a higher value than just ourselves because we will do more for other people than we will for ourselves. We just have to find that other people. And I've seen this with people with foundations or a compelling project in their life that they want to finance.

This drives them.

This gives them this— I don't know, is that external or internal? For me, it was competition. Each of us has to find our own so that we have that drive every Maybe you have a picture of it, or you have some kind of song that'll get you back into the groove. But we have to own that so that when we get hung up on, we have a tool that will get us back into state, back into the mood and the focus to become great at sales. Because rejection is part of it. It has the meaning you give it. is the difference between how successful you'll be in sales. If you give it the meaning, oh, that person thinks they're better than me, or that person is rude, and that doesn't serve you. That may comfort you. It may give you a reason that it happened, but it's not empowering. But if you say, hey, they're having a bad day. Next. Move on. Keep going forward. I know it's easier said than done. But if you practice it before you get the hang up, it's so much easier because you can joke about it. Hang up on yourself. Have somebody else hang up on you. And you see that it's nothing. That your goals, your purpose, your reason for being in sales has to be paramount so that when you get that roller coaster down, you're able to immediately get it back going up again. And the other part is the ops, the tops, Now, you got to be careful there too because if you get addicted to that, you'll only be happy when you have that. You have to have some level of mood control. Self-regulation is what they call it in emotional intelligence. And it's critical in sales because we're riding that roller coaster. And some of us are able to leverage that and other people really get beat up with it. Today in the sales community, there's lots of talk about mental health. And everything. And the key is to do it before you need it. The way to regulate yourself is not through external chemicals or substances or beverages or food. Anything that's really not going to contribute to us moving forward. Us getting heavier or sedated is a temporary thing, and it's not going to cure it. It only tamps down The symptoms. The other thing I got out of it is that learning as part of every day, and it's not a destination, it's a process. You know, you use the sports things where you're hitting a golf ball. It looks pretty simple. How hard can it be until you try it? The other thing is when you're in the game, it's very hard to see the terrain. And this is something that takes a while to understand because until you become a manager or somebody who helps salespeople, because it's easier for that person to see the terrain. And if you can map out what your game is so that you understand where you are in it instead of this constant reaction to what the signals are that distract you from the real objective. The real objective is helping people out and closing deals. Also, why do we look down on being money motivated? Certainly, in capitalist societies, that's one of the reasons we work. And we don't get into sales because we want to save the world. Some people say it. I think it's just crap. And I don't think money should be the only reason either, because then You won't be happy unless it's always going up. And unfortunately, yeah, we have good quarters, bad quarters, good years, bad years. Some of it you have control over, some of it you're doing the best you can with what you have. But being money motivated is a good thing. It was really the reason for— I would have stayed an engineer my whole life. I, I got frustrated with like, okay, I work 80 hours a week, I get the same as the guy who's working 30. And it, you know, goofing off. It made no sense. Oh, I get a promotion, or once a year I get a 5 or 10% raise. Not really exciting. Doesn't change my lifestyle. Doesn't really move the needle. Then I get into sales and I made 5 times as much. And it was fun. And guess what? The business is in business to make money. Money. You know, you might— oh, not maybe not profit, but growth. Always growth. That's why they're in business. That's why people invest in them. I think people look at being money motivated as a base motivation.

Eh, maybe.

I think it's a pretty good one. It's an honest, clear, concise, measurable one. Nothing wrong with that. So, if you were really looking at this interview, how can you come up with that coaching improvement cycle into your game? Getting better. First, define the game you're in so that you can tell if you're being successful or not making progress. The unfortunate part about sales is a lot of times we only view the closed deal as success. You got to look at what are all those successes. Did you get them on the phone? Were you able to understand what they're up against? Have you built that rapport? And here we were talking about likability and trust, these human characteristics that are feelings. They're kinesthetic elements. There's no number or gauge on these things. They're feelings. Feelings. The person who's feeling it is the one who determines if it's there or not and to what extent. No matter how trustworthy we are, it may not translate to that person. That person may not be very trusting. So we have to build that up, and we have to understand what that does and how that works. And there's nothing better than having somebody else to work with. In the office hours and the one-on-ones, of which you get, I think, 100 hours each in the course, you get to hear them, eavesdrop on them, take the hints from other people. You get to participate in them, have your own. But the idea is this constant improvement, slight little tweaks to what people are doing To make it better. And that's how you get great at sales. The people who get comfortable, oh, I've done this, I'm a pro. I love when someone says, I'm a pro. What the hell does that mean? Okay, let's see it. Let's see. And every sales call is different. One of the great CEOs that I had the honor to work with, I'd bring him out at the end of the quarter. The bad part was the night before, Before we would go to dinner, of course we couldn't drink because he wanted to go through the presentation, and he would go through every detail. And was it overboard? Ah, well, he's doing a lot better than I am today, so I guess not. You know, this guy was Air Force Academy, Stanford grad, young guy, a lot of success, a lot of charisma. But it was earned. It wasn't innate. And that's what we have to work on. I hope you enjoyed this. Tell a friend about the show. Sign up for the courses at B2B Revenue. All the information's in the show notes of the show right below this. Just swipe up and it's the letter B, the numeral 2, the letter B, and then my favorite word, revenue.

Revenue.

Revenue. We'll see you next time.

I was just going to give a bit of a testimonial if that's all right, just to kick it off.

Just positive.

No, it is positive. It was a— yeah, just because I started the course, I think in June of last year, 2021. I got a few more months left of access, which is good. But I feel like it's been a transformative experience in my own personal and professional life. I was able to go from a period of a low sales slump in the middle of last year, in the summer and early fall, and then really was able to then come back and exceed my target by the end of the, by the end of the 4th quarter. And so the only other thing I would say is that it's also really differentiated me amongst people on the sales team in terms of focus and clarity of what's important. And now I feel really good about what I'm doing in terms of the approach of reaching out to customers and having those conversations and being focused, as opposed to just doing a lot of the other busy work on the side, like organizing resources and doing business analytics and all this other stuff. And so it's really been a noticeable difference with our executive team at, at my company. And so I just want to thank you for the content and for the these opportunities. And so I hope that helps if there's anybody new. It's— I'm a work in progress, but it's getting better.

Good.

Yeah.

And you're selling pretty hard stuff.