WHAT IT TAKES TO GROW TO THE NEXT LEVEL IN YOUR CAREER

You probably have noticed I ask one particular question quite often during the interviews, and that is, what were some of your epiphanies? And you probably hear some of the similar things over and over again. And I use the word epiphany because an epiphany goes from the point of, yeah, I know it, To the point of, I get it. Now, this distinction may seem subtle to you, but this distinction is huge. Let me give you an example from my own life. About, you know, right after the pandemic, pretty much I did the same thing that most people did. I ate too much and I didn't move enough. So guess what happened?

I gained weight.

I got fat, really fat, really fast because, oh, we don't know what's out there. I'm not exercising nearly enough. And boy, am I eating and drinking way too much because, uh, what? We're all anxious. We don't know what's going on. It's a distraction. Uh, you know, our little mammal brain goes, feed me, feed me. Always says feed me, right? Hunger's a survival mechanism. Hunger's a primitive drive. And all of a sudden you get big and fat. And then all of a sudden you notice it, meaning you get an epiphany that, hey, I gotta change. And then we go through this journey of hacks. We're all looking for the simple, how do I lose weight and not change my lifestyle? Not eat less. Not exercise more, but just, oh, well, maybe I'll do this little thing. I'll eat this little bar, or I will wait 15 more minutes in the morning before I eat. Well, you know, the hacks, they get you that 1%. I needed a big percentage. I needed to lose a lot of weight. So, you have the epiphany of, okay, you know the equation. Less calories in, more calories out, meaning eating less, moving more. And you start doing it. But the epiphany continues in that all of a sudden you start to get it exactly, the cost of every calorie and the cost of not going out and working out. But I want to get skinny again. I wanted to feel good again. I want to live longer. And these epiphanies are critical. And today's guest, I happen to have gotten to know. He has joined, uh, first Closing the Complex Sale. He had enormous success with that. Then got Start the Conversation, Get the Meeting. He's had, and you'll hear, enormous success with that, not only applying it to getting meetings within his accounts at his previous company, but getting his dream job. Not going through the website, going directly to the hiring manager. These epiphanies, it's the point from where you go from the rationalization to the need to change. The point where you say, now I get it. I'm not going to fight it anymore. I'm not— That's what the rationalization is. The rationalization is, I'm not that fat. I'm not that lazy. I could go out and run 5 miles if I decided to. That's all I need to do is decide to. Okay. I tried that. That decision gets you outside and that first mile, and then you come home because it's hard. The same is true with sales. And what you'll get out of today's interview, and I hope you take Oh, this takeaway with you. This is this actionable insight that you're all looking for, is find something that you want to do that you may already be good at and try and take it to the next level. Uh, our guest today, uh, took on— he was big into golf. We use the golfing analogy quite a bit in the training on how to get him to the next level. But then he got into MMA. And hearing a lot of people getting into that CrossFit, MMA, anything that gets you out of that comfort zone, gets you both physically and mentally moving. You know, for me, it's been running. Whatever it is for you, find it. Find something that you already enjoy so that it's not a chore for you, but yet it is still a stretch. Because the same things that will get you better at that will get you better at sales. And you'll hear it. And are they secrets? No, but they are epiphanies where you're like, I know that. Okay, that's the first step. The next step is to do it. But the magic happens is once you start doing it, you You're not happy at that level. You want to do more. You want to get better. You get into that flow state and you want to push yourself just a little bit more and it feels good. And then you get into that upward spiral of a little bit better, a little bit better, enjoying it more instead of the downward spiral. Well, that didn't work. What's the next silver bullet I look for? I think you're going to enjoy this interview. And the progress that this person has made in the year and a half that I've known him has been nothing less than life-changing. Um, and where I see him going is really exciting. After this interview, honestly, I was buzzing because the pride and the fun of helping salespeople It's a lot of arduousness because so many people are resisting at the beginning, rationalizing at the beginning, trying to describe why they don't need to lose weight, why they don't need to exercise. Isn't there a smarter way of doing this? And believe me, I always look for the smartest way to do things because I'm lazy as can be. And all of a sudden, when you Get them to start a little bit. And I saw it because we did a tremendous number of one-on-ones. And if you're in the course, you can see it. You've probably heard this person on office hours because he was very consistently showing up, was open-minded eventually, became very coachable eventually. And then when he applied it, had enormous success. The emails that I got from him about after he closed these big deals. That juiced me up because it's hard to get people to see it. And the hardest part of training salespeople is that connection with them where they trust you and they are, or become open to the epiphany. And then when they get that little bit of success, the dopamine hits. And they want more. Then you get the momentum and the magic starts to happen. And this can happen for you, but you have to get ready. You have to get— no one else can do it for you. One of the, the best quotes I ever heard when I was early in my career: when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. Okay, until you're ready you're not gonna have the epiphany. I wasn't ready to lose weight until that epiphany where all of a sudden I took a picture of myself, uh, you know, you know, without a shirt in my bathroom, and I go, holy smokes, this dude needs to lose weight. That was the epiphany and that pain. And I kept that picture in my camera roll In my camera role as a driver. So when I woke up early and I said, well, uh, you know, my knee is a little sore, maybe I'll take tomorrow— today off. I'd open my, my phone and I'd look at that picture of that fat bastard and I'd go, you got to get out there and run, boy. And, and, and believe me, it was not easy, nor were the results immediate. They took forever. You know, it— and I have my calendar, I'm looking at it right now because I write down my weight at the beginning of every month and I keep track of each exercise on each day to keep track of it. Changed my diet dramatically. And the keys for everything, it's about consistency and consciousness, becoming conscious about what you're doing and breaking through the rationalizations that you're saying to yourself in your head to try and keep you comfortable. Let's get into the interview. I'll sum it up at the end. I'll share some more backstory on the guest and the progress that I've seen him make.

Hey, Vipul, great to see you.

As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Yeah. Hey, Brian, great to be here. Listen to the podcast. So I'm really honored to join and to be interviewed by you. So I live in Austin, Texas and have a wife, 2 kids. Went to school mostly in the Midwest, grew up in the Midwest, came down to Texas about 15 years ago. And my journey professionally has been in sales as of late, obviously. But I started out in a few different industries. I started out in the golf industry to start with and moved to healthcare and running doctors' offices and clinics. And from that, I moved over to selling a SaaS solution about 7-8 years ago in healthcare. And that was really the start of my sales career. And since then, I've stayed in the tech sales industry and really enjoying it. And that's where I am today.

And what do you like about sales?

I think the best part about sales for me is the independence and the entrepreneurship of sales. I like having a book of business that I'm responsible for growing. And I think the independence of it is really what draws me to it. And quite honestly, I think working with, especially in a corporate environment, working with others, I think I can do it, but the politics of it all kind of wears on me. And I think the best part about sales is it's the closest you can get to a meritocracy. And I like having the ability to Kind of control my own destiny.

Yeah.

And how long did it take you to become good at it?

Well, I'm still waiting, Brian. I'm still—

You're doing pretty good.

Well, I don't wanna— I think I am good at it. It took the last 7— I mean, it took up to today actually where we're sitting. Just for today. Yeah, it took the whole time and I don't ever wanna say I'm good at something because I always feel like I can get better. I'm the kind of person that's always training. Always looking at things. How can I do them better? Because look, if I have to do this for another 10 to 15 years, things are gonna change in 10 to 15 years. And if I have a methodology that works great, but you have to be fluid, right? And in 5 years, maybe what works today doesn't work in the future. I mean, some things are standards and are never gonna change. But there's different methodologies for communication and for getting things done. And I think you have to keep an open mind. I'm certainly not the authority on it, and I like to take that mentality. forward. So I may be good at it and the numbers show it. And, and, but I think at the end of the day, I wanna have the mentality of, you know, continuing to grow.

And I think that beginner's mindset helps people.

Absolutely.

And I'm wondering why some people don't have it.

Well, in my, in my opinion there, I think to a large degree with sales, you're supposed to have the, you're supposed to have all the answers, right? You're supposed to be the guy in the room that knows everything. And and that has all the answers, and you know it's a performance at the end of the day. There's a performance aspect of it too. But for me, I think the the key is is that beginner's mindset, and always having to always always being the kind of person that's asking the questions, you know the big questions, and getting people to think. And I think that's really, that's really what it is to me. And actually, I equate this to other aspects of my life. There's, there's things I do as far as hobbies that I start over in, or I try new hobbies and, and I'm really bad at it. But I think that reminds me that, hey, you know, there's always room for improvement. And, and so that's why, you know, I think when you go into a job, you have to prove yourself. I've heard imposter syndrome before. You know, people go in and then they feel they have to over-index the other way on knowing things. And yeah, I think people can see right through that, right? I think, but if you're honest with folks and you're wanting to learn and that carries over to the customer conversations too, I may be stepping a little ahead in the interview here, but I think having that beginner's mindset when you're, especially if you're in a new account set or you get a prospect to start talking to you that's interested, having that beginner's mindset carries over to the conversations you have with them because you never know what nugget of information is going to be the most important.

And tell us about these hobbies. You know, I think golf is probably beyond a hobby for you, right? It's more of a lifestyle thing. Or— but I like that because, you know, over the last year, you know, I really got into losing weight and getting into shape. And you think it's like, oh, you do it for a year, you, you, you hit your goal and you're fine. No, you want to do more. You're like, well, this is better, but it's not great. There's still a lot more of me here than I'd like there to be here.

Absolutely.

What hobbies have kind of a, have a good parallel to sales or the learning of sales skills?

Yeah. So you mentioned golf. I think that definitely has a long, you know, has a good parallel to it because I think there's, you can't skip steps when it comes to golf. You have to go through the fundamentals, you have to perfect the fundamentals and practice the fundamentals. And it takes time to develop a game, right, that is usable on the golf course, that's a good game, you know, that you can enjoy doing. Otherwise, it's very frustrating, right?

Yeah.

And then I just recently started doing a lot of Brazilian jiu-jitsu, actually back in May. So that's 3 months from the time we're talking now. And that's been very humbling as well too. It's very physical. But you see the folks that have been doing it a long time, There's definitely skills, motor skills and tactical and strategy skills that they have over years of development that you're just not gonna get when you, when you go. I mean, you can, it's just gonna take time and that's it. And I think sales is kind of the same way too. There's things you can do to speed up the progress, but to put in the work and to implement things that you've learned. It takes time and it takes repetition and it takes, you know, putting yourself out there in front of customers and just, and just doing it and see if it, seeing if it works or not.

Yeah. Because a lot of people are saying that MMA or any kind of, you know, physical combat, not for the, you know, the beating somebody else up part of it, but for the physical fitness part of it and the mental agility. It's a lot like sales because there's some routines that fit the gambits, but then things often go off the rails a little.

Absolutely. And you have to get used to, you know, getting punched in the face basically or getting tapped out. I mean, it's just something you're gonna have to get used to. And it's the same thing in sales. You're gonna have to get used to it. But then over time, you find ways and strategies on how to mitigate those circumstances before they happen. Or if it is off the rails, you know, a deal or whether it's jiu-jitsu or when it is off the rails, there's ways you can bring it back.

Yeah.

It's a little bit harder work and the chances are less slim, but to bringing it back on track. But it's there, there's ways that maybe you can get back to where you're not in a bad situation anymore, right? So there's parallels there as well.

And plus there's no cheat code. Everybody in sales wants the cheat code.

Exactly. And it doesn't happen. It just takes time and it takes, it takes time and it takes time and the strategy that you're putting in play, right? And then the ability to say, okay, that's not working. Well, what is working? And then going with that. So yeah, there's no cheat code to get ahead and there's no shortcuts. Yeah, no shortcuts at all.

What were some of the epiphanies in your sales career that kind of opened up and now all of a sudden sales kind of made a little bit more sense?

Yeah, I think especially, and this goes back to folks that are starting, I remember when I started, I think the biggest epiphany was it's not about your product. Okay, that's the main thing. And that may be, you know, remedial for some sales folks out there, I think. But I think it's a good reminder is it's not about your product, it's about the customer and solving their problem. And I think that's where I've found the most success is just staying focused and doubling down on the problem. And what are you gonna do? What are we gonna do about it? What are we, you and me, Mr. Prospect, what are we gonna do about it? Right? So You want to align yourself with them. And I think that was the biggest epiphany. It's not me versus you or me selling to you or here's something that's great. It might be great for them, you know, and it might be the best thing for them. But without understanding, you know, what they're facing, I think that's the biggest thing because a lot of times you get into and maybe it's changing, you know, in companies now, maybe they're starting to realize that a little bit more. especially if they have a broad product portfolio. But sometimes when I first started, especially in the SaaS business, it was like, here's, you know, here's the piece of software and you go out and, you know, talk about the benefits to everybody and nobody wants to hear the benefits or, you know, the benefits I think are you feel like you're getting sold to when you hear benefits, right?

Well, we walk into the commodity transactional trap when we do it. Because we're talking about logical things and all of a sudden the customer has the option of saying, oh, that makes sense, but we've been living for a long time without it. I think we can live another year without it.

100%. That's, I completely agree. So I think that's the main thing is that, hey, it's not about your product, it's about the customer problem. The second thing I would say too is that it's The sale or sales is not about closing the deal and getting the signature or the PO or the order. It's actually, especially in B2B. Now, if it's a B2C type of customer, I think it's a different type of sale. But in B2B sales, especially in the enterprise space, and now I'm actually gone a little bit downmarket. I'm in the mid-market section now, which actually has a little bit of advantage from somebody coming from enterprise. But in B2B, The other epiphany I had too was that the sale is not getting the order. The sale for me is being able to continue the conversation and keep the momentum going. How do you do that? That's the real sale because the inevitability of that will lead to that order with less brute force. You know, at the end of the quarter, you're not, you know, having to have that hard conversation or Having to, you know, call the CFO on vacation and, you know, having your VP do all— I mean, as salespeople, we know how that goes, right? So I think for me in particular, keeping the momentum going, the next call, the next conversation, that's really the sale. Can I keep that going? And I think that was a huge epiphany for me. You have to break it down into chunks.

Right. Because if you push for the close and they don't close, what do you have? A broken relationship.

Exactly.

As long as you're talking, you'll start to understand what needs to happen to progress it.

Yes, I totally agree. And, you know, it's funny too because one, I had, I was talking to one of our leaders in the last place I worked and And I made the point to him because a lot of times what you see is that, well, that's just gonna lengthen the sales cycle. We wanna pull these deals in, but you're just having, you know, meeting after meeting with the customer, right? But what you don't realize is there's, you gotta have value in those meetings, number one. And number two, if you do what, you know, some reps would do in terms of demo, propose, once that proposal is created, And now the customer has the proposal. So now there's gonna be a time period before they make a decision that could be, and obviously that's out of your control to some degree, right? But that time, that intervening time, I would much rather still be talking to them because the time's gonna take the time it takes anyway. So why not still be talking to them along the way? And not just have the proposal, you know, go over the fence or whatever you want to call it, you know, just throw it over the fence to them.

Well, you were faced with the pressure to send proposals, unsolicited proposals as a way of generating pipeline.

That's right. That's right.

How effective was that?

Yeah, yeah. And that's, yeah, that's, I think there was a lot of alignment internally amongst the other reps that that's probably not the best way to go there. It's better to, you know, find the needs, find the problem, continue the conversation. And like I said, that's really the sale, right? Let's just get to the next. Let's figure out ways to get to the next meeting. Let's figure out ways to meet somebody else in the organization, right? And really understand the different players there and what their needs are and what's important to them, right?

That's Yeah, because then you move away from, oh, Vipul's the rep from X to, no, Vipul's an expert in this. He seems to know what other people are doing, different ways of solving this. I want to hear what he has to say.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And so those are the 2 big things I think for me that I took away that are, if I'm successful in any way, it's because I approach it from the problem side of it. And then I approach it as the sale is the continuation of a relevant conversation that'll inevitably lead to the closing of a deal that has no choice because we've gone through the paces to the point where the only logical conclusion is gonna be we have to do this deal, right?

Right. Because otherwise, why would they talk to you? They either want a discount if they're gonna move forward Or they're not gonna reply to you because they don't want to give you the bad news.

Exactly.

And have to deal with you handling their objection.

That's right. And so, you know, it's a chess game, right? It's not checkers. You're not trying to jump moves, right? You have to move strategically and you have to think about, you know, what the next steps are and how you're gonna create value to them. That's the preparation, right? How do I keep the conversation going? What are they gonna say? What do I anticipate happening? Those are the keys, right? And then, you know, for me, I think that took time to develop that too, right? It doesn't happen overnight. And a lot of times when you're talking with customers, you know, you can get sidetracked. They bring something up, they throw something out of left field, they have a problem or concern. So, you know, it doesn't always go the way that you think it's gonna go. But any concerns they have are always new opportunities that open up for you as well too. So, yeah.

And what motivates you? What's your driver? I don't mean the actual driver, your motivational driver.

Yeah, yeah, I would say, well, 2, of course, the money. I think we're in sales and money is a huge driver for us. And I would say that the non-monetary driver Is is the challenge doing hard things. Like I said before, you know, I like to put myself in in in hobbies where I'm not good at and start over again. And I think sales is that way for me too. It's challenging, and the best part about it is each account that I have, each person I talk to, it presents a new challenge to me that is unlike the challenge before. And that's what really keeps me motivated is, okay, this is a different account. They do, they serve a different population, their revenue model is different. What is, what's interesting to them? And then, you know, then you break that down from the company level to the person. Each person is different and what they want. And so I think the constant challenge of having to understand the different businesses The different folks that are in the positions of leadership in those businesses and what's important to them. It's a never-ending challenge, and I think that's that's really what motivates me outside of the the compensation factor.

And to do that requires empathy, right? Because you got to think about well, what are they going through? Because they're not they're not worried about your quota, right? They they don't call you up once a month. How you doing? Should we buy more?

Absolutely.

How did you develop that skill? Was that something you always had or was it something that you started doing and all of a sudden saw value from it?

Yeah, I think that goes back to the beginner's mindset and I think it also goes to the point of what we were talking about before where you have to be comfortable being uncomfortable and not having the answers. And I think that's more authentic. When you're talking to a customer, but you don't know all the answers and you're wanting to learn from them. I mean, I think that really is what builds trust very quickly with a customer too, because they know you're not coming there with solutions and saying, you know, you're gonna save them, right? Nobody needs saving, right? And people wanna feel like that they're important. People wanna feel like they know more than you. It's their business. Right? So give way to that, give way to that. And I've learned that it's, you know, the presentations have their time and place, but I think it's the questions and the understanding and diving deep. And what I've seen too, you know, a lot of other reps, and I've seen this from other reps, that they'll ask questions, but then the customer will say something that you should, you know, double down on or ask a deeper question on, but they gloss over that question.

Yeah.

And I think that's really the separation of the guys that I know on our team and the guys that I've worked with in the past, guys, gals, both that, that are really good. They'll stop at that one question and then they'll ask more about that question and go, go down that rabbit hole a little bit more. And I think that's the separator there.

That's good because like in MMA, you have an opponent. In sales, it's not an opponent. It's a collaborator.

It's a dance.

And when they throw you something that, you know, you can build off of and then you switch it back to something you know about your product that doesn't answer the question, you miss the point.

Yeah. And that's where it goes off.

And then ask another one, right?

Yeah. That's where it goes off track, right?

And I think I saw the most development in you when you shifted From that.

Absolutely.

When the meetings were about them and not about what you needed to sell.

Absolutely. And not having the answer, but saying, hey, let me be that person to find that answer for you. So now I'm part of your team, right? I'm working on your behalf to say, hey, maybe we don't have the best answer. Maybe we do, but let me see what else is out there and give you some things to think about.

Right.

And now I'm, you know, on their side of the fence. I'm dancing with them instead of, you know, trying to sell to them or in opposition of what the customer is trying to do. Right.

That's it. And I think a lot of people think that this slows the deal down. It's like, no, this speeds it up and solidifies it. If you want to know if they're going to buy, you can just call them. Hey, you're going to buy? You're going to get yes, no, or maybe. I don't know.

But that's not progressing anything. That's not causing anything.

Absolutely. And if when you go down the path of where you're setting up these subsequent meetings of value versus just proposing and waiting, when you go down this path, you have a— for those reps out there that, you know, they have managers that maybe they're— that come down on them or that are, you know, looking at their sales force and things like that, you have a story to tell back to them, right? You have— you've had so many Meetings and contacts, it sets your leadership, it sets their mind at ease because they know that you're so engaged in this account and they know what's coming and what's not coming. They know why it's coming and why it's not coming. You can fill in so much information and it builds trust with your leadership team as well too because they have a number that they have to also adhere to, not just yourself. Your number rolls up, everybody knows that. And it goes all the way up the chain, maybe even out to Wall Street, right? So, you know, when you're looking up the leadership team, you have a story to tell that sets their mind at ease because they know that, that you're actually getting the account and doing the right things with the customer and for the customer, right?

And when you were able to do this, didn't you feel more comfortable that you had control over the process and understood it versus it being a black box, wondering what's going on in there when you're not there?

Absolutely. Absolutely. You're more engaged with the customer. You understand, you know, what's going on in the account to a greater degree because you're not asking for an answer, right?

You're having a conversation.

Yeah, you're having conversations with them of value that are, that could be even ancillary to the actual, you know, product or sale or problem that you're addressing, right? You could be having ancillary conversations as well too. And it opens up other opportunities and other places in an account because most B2B, it's not single threaded, right? There may be other products that fit others from a leadership level or horizontally within an organization. So you want to be flexible so that it's a non— it's not a sales cycle, it's more of an ongoing process of sales, right? I don't want to say it's a cycle. I want to say it's a It's a never-ending process that just continues to flow around and around and around, right? Of value, adding value and just having relevant conversations with all the folks in the account.

And you were selling pretty complex stuff and you didn't have a technical background. Is that true?

That's right. That's correct.

How did you be able to learn enough to have these valuable conversations over a long period of time?

Yeah, that's a good question. I think with technical sales, so as a sales rep, and I think this may be helpful, especially to those that are beginning in their sales careers or looking for answers. To me, at the end of the day, if I have 10, 15, 20 accounts, I can't, I personally can't know what's going on in each of those accounts from a rep to a customer and what the customer feels is important. I have to really stay on what the customer's problem is. And so to me, from a technical standpoint, our technical solutions, right? I needed to know enough to understand what their problem was from a technical portion, but their problem for technically, Our solution technically, I don't need to know as much about. So I just need to know the general technical overviews and architectures to see where the problem lies. If I need to fill in the blanks, I can talk to our technical folks on our teams. We have solutions, technical solutions folks, and they can help me fill in the blanks if I need to. But there's only so much information that I can fill in my head, and I think the company pays me more to direct these types of conversations to an endpoint of some degree, hopefully a revenue-generating endpoint, but not to be the technical guy, right? And I think that also gives me credibility with the customer as well too, because I don't have to be that technical guy with them. I can have the conversations of the timing, the justification of when to do this, who else are you looking for. You can't do all that and be the technical guy at the same time. So I don't try to be that. I try to know enough so that it's relevant, so I can stay relevant in any conversation. But I'm gonna be more focused on the business and of the how to do that, how to get this done, how to solve the problem versus the technical aspects of the problem itself. Right.

Hey, I really appreciate your time today. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

Yeah, you can follow me on LinkedIn, Vipul Gidda, V-I-P-U-L G-I-D-D-A, or just message me on LinkedIn if you need help. I'm always willing to network with other reps and talk to folks and exchange war stories, learning stories. I'm always into that, like, right, beginner mindset. So I love sales conversations and sales and challenges with sales. So Hey, send them my way. Send me a message. I'll get back to you.

I hope you enjoyed that interview. Now, here's some of the takeaways and something that I kind of learned this week, or again, an epiphany for me, is that to become curious requires a certain level of confidence. And now when I say confidence, I don't mean cockiness. I don't mean arrogance. I just mean a level of comfort in your own skin where anxiety is not overtaking you. Uh, your self-image is not the preeminent focus in your mind. What is, is that you You feel comfortable proactively asking questions and not worrying about judgment. And so you need this level of confidence, and Vipul has that. And I think that's been one of the key distinctions between people who can have honest, open, interactive dialogue about what they're doing because they're not Worried about somebody feeling that, oh, that's a stupid question. No, talk it through, share it, be a little bit vulnerable. No one, no one's thinking about you, and your self-image is up to you. You'd be surprised how little anyone else thinks about anyone else other than than themselves. And if you can have just that modicum of confidence to be able to be curious and ask questions without worrying about any judgment about it, ask questions like, well, this is what I'm doing now. Why do you think I'm getting the result I'm getting? And be okay. Let's face it. We're in this performance profession, much like MMA, golf. You know, running's much more like labor, but getting into shape, uh, yeah, there's not much performance to it. It's much more like labor. But sales is much more like MMA, except for you're not really wrestling with somebody, you're cooperating with them. But there's a certain structure and routine to it because if you let your subconscious take over, you just start, you know, wailing at each other. You have to understand kind of the moves because the other person's doing the moves. Now, what Vipple did really well was he had this hunger to learn about What works and what doesn't and why, instead of rationalizing what he's doing and trying to blame everything outside of himself for why it wasn't working. Because when he came to me, what he was doing wasn't working, but it was exactly what he was told to do by his company. Because His company really didn't understand highly competitive, complex sales. It was much more like account management or account development. And if you happen to be the right person at the right time, you would get the deal. But of course, in big companies, they don't— they do what's right for them. So he was able to both get these meetings, keep these deals moving, and develop this talent of talking to the client about what they care about. Now, I'm not talking about just small talk. I'm talking about a business conversation. And this is what I get for everybody who wants to start the courses. The people who really want it just sign up. The people who want to rationalize why they're already doing the smartest I'm doing every possible thing. Okay, are you getting the result? Are you making $500K? Oh, you're making $150K. Well, guess what the difference between the people making $500K and $150K is? Okay, it's $350K. But the talent difference is enormous because the people making $500K get how it works.

They have The epiphany.

The people making $150,000 are rationalizing why— they know some of the results, they know some of the actions that need to take place, but they rationalize why what they're doing is fine. And a lot of people send me examples, and it's all the same. It's all commercials. Yeah, some are better than others, but if you think coming up with the better commercial is the answer— You're way off. Everybody who calls me and every manager comes in, they all say, well, can you work with us on our messaging? And I'm like, well, it's not your messaging that's the problem, because your messaging is a commercial. And I bet I could come in and maybe make it 5% better, maybe 10%. If it's really bad, maybe 50%. You're not going to pay money for that. But what I can do is teach you how to start a conversation with a stranger. Because you're so focused on the transaction that you're pushing yourself into your own trap. The trap of being a sales rep instead of being a professional talking to another professional, but not acting Like some stiff salesperson. Now, when you get this epiphany, because you know you need it, you're sitting there going, ah, yeah, yeah, I'm at 150 right now. I'd like to be at 500, but how can I do it, Brian, without changing? Uh, you can't. It's the same way I couldn't lose 50 pounds without changing. I had to change. And I had to become conscious. A lot of the things that I was eating I thought was healthy until I Google it, and it's like, yeah, in tiny portions it's healthy, but in the portions you're eating it, it's not healthy. And then I was like, okay, well, I'm exercising quite a bit. And then I get, you know, the tracking stuff on my Apple Watch, my Oura Ring. And it's like, well, not really. You're still consuming more calories than you're burning, so you're not going to lose weight. Okay, so I gotta face that now. And then all of a sudden, at first life is not that much fun anymore, but after a couple of weeks, maybe a month, all of a sudden you start to feel a little better, a little bit lighter, a A little bit. The scale's looking a little bit prettier, and you start to enjoy it. Wait, I like running? It took a while, but I remembered liking it as a kid. Now I like it as an adult. And oh yeah, a beautiful morning at sunrise, going out for a run in the cold, cool, crisp air. Oh, there's something to it now. Now I got momentum. And all of a sudden you get progress, but it's still slow. You know, even a, you know, half a pound a week, it's pretty arduous. And sometimes you step on the scale and it's up, even though you've been really consistent. But that's like sales. You know, with Vipple, he was trying MMA, which is a great way of using that metaphor. In sales, to keep your focus consistent, have faith in the right things, not get stuck in the transactional trap. Because you think the transactional trap is faster, but the world is already at no. You don't have to do anything to accelerate that. Our job is to build to a yes. And if you want to just find out if it's no, here's the secret. It already is. You don't have to do anything. Build to a yes. If you're out there trying to find interest, good luck. That's less than 1/10 of 1%, maybe. Our job is to build interest. And somebody sent me an InMail this week. Hey, can you give me some examples of how to build interest? Well, it's not a script. It's a skill. MMA is a skill. Oh, can you send me some examples of how to win the MMA award? You know, the belt. What's the secret? See how crazy that question is? But yet we ask that about sales all the time. What's the secret to MMA? I don't know. Years of training. A great coach, insane dedication and training and practice, and hopefully you have the genetic buildup. Well, see, in sales, you don't need the genetic buildup. You need the great coach to make sure you're doing the best possible way of doing it. And, but you have to do the reps. The coach can't do it for you. I can't do it for you. I mean, I could go and sell it for you, but I have no incentive to do that. The MMA coach can't win the match for you. You have to do it. We think today, because everything is automated and AI and all this stuff, that this transfers to other professions. And it may in some, but not in sales. That's why they hire us. If it was easy, they wouldn't hire us. They'd hire dumber people who are less expensive. They hire us because it is hard. And the only way to get it to be easier is first have trust in the process that you're using is the best possible. Then get feedback and be a little vulnerable that, oh, I'm not perfect? Yeah. Here's the secret. You're not perfect. No one is. So, oh, can you become better?

Yeah.

How do I do it? Recognize the difference between what you're doing and how you could do it better. And then the income rolling in. I bet Vipple will more than double or triple last year's income this year. I think you heard some of the energy because now he's moved from an okay company to a great company. An okay territory to a great territory, and you'll see what happens. You know, put a little marker on the calendar to check out his LinkedIn profile a year from now. I think he's going to go pretty far. So can you. Go sign up at b2brevenue.com. Hear the rationalizations, write them down, and ask yourself, Are those the words of a winner? You know the answer. So a year from now, you're either going to have that income or you're going to have those rationalizations. Which one do you want? You'll feel comfortable with the rationalization, but believe me, you'll feel a lot better with all that money in the bank. It's up to you. B2BRevenue.com. Everything is in the show notes below. Everything's also on my LinkedIn profile, the YouTube channel, the website b2brevenue.com. Everything's on there. There's 2 videos. One's like 25 minutes long on which course to pick, which is the question everyone will send me. But did you watch the video? Yes. And then they'll send me the same questions that I answer in the video. Yes, we have people you can talk to. If you still have questions, you can submit the questions, but please submit the question, not submit a request to ask the question. Okay, go ahead and ask the question. And what most people want to do is just rationalize why they don't want, need, or are good with the course.

That's fine.

I don't care. What your rationalization— I want to talk with the people who have had the epiphany. Do you want to get in shape? Do you want to lose weight in the sales context? We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening. Tell a friend about the show.