WHAT WORKING SMART LOOKS LIKE IN B2B ENTERPRISE SALES

Today we've got a great example of both strategic and tactical skills, getting into new accounts and becoming so good at selling that you can start your own company, be a real salespreneur in the real, I guess, sense of it where you're not tied to just one company. You could have many companies. And in the past, we've had manufacturers' reps do this and be on the show, but we really haven't had somebody who started their own Little firm and been able to be essentially a sales rep for hire. And a few people in Start the Conversation, Get the Meeting have become so good at it, they started their own appointment-setting company, getting reps into accounts. Now, isn't that a nice idea? An unintended consequence or side effect of the course. And if you happen to be in the course, yesterday we had a great office hours and one of the students came up with a great example and something to do after that first conversation to really make sure you'll get a second one. So if you're in Start the Conversation, get the meeting, make sure you're checking out that office hours. Really good. And you could check it out on the app. If you haven't used the app for the course, just go into the first chapter, the Office Hours chapter, and the instructions are there, um, as well as in the community. Let's get into this interview. I'll sum it up at the end, but stick with it because it's not only a great story but a journey of someone becoming a great sales rep. Here we go. Hey, Poya, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Yeah, hi. Thanks for having me. Excited to be here. For everybody, my name is Poya. I'm a first-generation immigrant, born and raised for the first couple of years in Iran. When I was young, my family and I left Iran as a, as an immigrant. We temporarily got asylum in Turkey, was fortunate to live there for a couple of years, then we moved over to Dubai, lived there for a couple of years. And while we were trying to sort out our ability to move to the States, did a very, very small stint in the Netherlands and Germany, very few months. And then ultimately we landed in Orange County, California, where I consider home. Did my middle school, high school, college there. For about the last 10 years or so, I've been in tech sales. So started my career at Oracle, And after a couple of, 1 or 2 years, I moved over to startup land, did that for a couple years, was fortunate to work with an amazing group of companies, HackerRank, Automile. And about 5 years ago, I decided to move over to becoming a 1099, so consulting. However, the type of consulting I do is a little unique in that I'm pretty much an AE on demand at any given time. I usually work for 1 or 2 companies that I like. I've endorsed, know, trust. And on the side, if folks need my help, I have been an advisor, I've been a consultant, I've been an investor. So love being part of the SaaS ecosystem, to say the least.

And why sales for you?

Why sales for me? So I actually got into sales during college. I worked for a company where during the day it would frankly be like extra money, help me basically paid through college, which is kind of awesome. And for the longest time I was like, I'm going to go into politics or legal or something. And a lot of that I think came from my family. Anyone that has grown up in an immigrant family, right? Especially one that's Iranian or Persian, we joke that you're either a doctor, a lawyer, or a disgrace, right? Always thinking that. It's very common. So I always had this pressure to move away from what I was doing. So I I actually temporarily went into politics. I even worked on the Hill in Washington, DC for a while.

Yeah.

And absolutely hated it. It was just not what I wanted to do. And what I love about sales, if you do it correctly, you kind of get what some of us experienced growing up playing in a team sport in that you can be your own individual self, but at some point it's still about the team. And At least the reason I like being an AE is you kind of control your own destiny, right? Like, it's one of those roles where sky's the limit as long as you're willing to, you know, put in the work and figure it out.

Did you get any pushback from your family saying, hey, you know, we went through a lot to get you to the US and stuff?

Yeah, I promise you to this day, my parents have no idea what I do. Like, I I just say I do computer stuff and I'm pretty sure they tell their friends like, I'm an engineer or something. Like to this day they have no idea. But the thing that I've been very fortunate about the last 10 years or so is I've been in a career where I've done very well and I've been very grateful to a point where I actually support my parents. So if anything, I don't— the fortunate part is I don't think they ask too many questions as a result of that, as long as the money's coming in.

And how'd you get good at it?

Well, it's a combination of things. So one aspect of it is like anything else, the more time you put into it, the better, right? So as I mentioned in college, like I literally used to do inside sales. It wasn't, there wasn't even a term for it. I just worked for multiple companies. I did everything from selling for a gym to selling insurance, to working for a tech company ultimately, where I got to see some folks that literally at any given time made 7+ figures. So when you're in that group, right, you just learn and see what it takes to have transactions done.

Yeah.

But frankly, the thing that really helped me was I got my career start at Oracle, and I'm very fortunate. I know sometimes Folks out of college have it figured out. They know exactly where they want to go. And one of the questions that's popping up now is, do I go the startup plan? Do I go for a big company? At least in my case, all day, every day, I would say a big company because for me, I was so green out of college, regardless of the fact that I worked through it. I still, there were so many things I did not know. And what's nice about a big company, usually they have some sort of training. Right? Where they teach you the fundamentals. So I was very fortunate to go through some really rigorous, great programs by Corporate Vision, by Sandler. And I just think learning some of those basics, right? Like the most basic thing I've learned in sales, sometimes at some point it's a back and a forth, right? For every give, you get the ability to ask for something in return. Like some of those foundational things that are like very basic, You get to learn in a risk-free way. But ultimately, I would say at some point, once you've learned those things, you need to go unleash yourself and put them into practice. And that's where I think a really good, fast-growing startup comes in handy. And this wasn't intentional, it was just by luck where I was fortunate enough to move over to HackerRank. I was 22, right? having been very hungry the last year or so at Oracle. It's '22, '23, and you could tell I just wanted to, like, I was like, I had this energy and demand to just go out there and get it. And it was a combination of, at that time, the macro environment for hiring, especially tech hiring, was good, right? 2014, '15 were good years. Our product was unique and creative and innovative, and I just, had the hustle and grit to just get on a plane and go do what needed to be done. And so looking back, sorry, at that given moment it didn't maybe make sense, but looking back, I think it's a combination of surround yourself with people that can teach you some of those fundamentals. They're willing to help you, right? The second thing is put yourself into positions where you can, as long as you out-hustle and put in the work, you get rewarded for it. And then the third thing is, frankly, you just need to have good mentors. I've been very fortunate to have people like Brendan Cassidy, Jason Lemkin, Don Ervin. Every manager I think I've ever worked for, I've tried out-hustling for them. And what ends up happening when you do that, they want to take you from place to place. I think for the last 10 years, I think for the last 10 years I've worked for the same people and I don't care who you are when you have those certain scenarios, right? You just lucky enough or fortunate enough to be able to like accelerate your career. So some of it is a combination of hard work, some of it is luck.

And was the immigrant experience what built the foundation there? Did you, I got to imagine you saw your parents work, Very hard when you were growing up.

Yeah, I won't go into the details. So my dad actually growing up, I just got to see him hustle, right? Like even as a kid, what my dad used to do is he used to export oil from Iran to other parts of Europe. So I always saw him consistently work from like sunrise to like sunset. And I have that same personality where I get my energy by just being busy. Like Yeah. I, as long as like even a little bit of stressful, it's not bad as long as it's not negative stress. Like I love, love being, you know, so some of that comes in, but the immigrant mentality for me, it's a little different in that I've always had a chip on my shoulder and I think I'll continue to have that chip on the shoulder because my parents sacrificed so much, right? Like they literally left everything behind. They don't even have the opportunity to like when their parents died, like to bury them, right? So anytime I have a hard, I'm like, look, this is nothing. It's nothing compared to those things. So I actually, anytime I go back home, which is like 3 to 6 months, I get reminded of where I come from. And that's literally the motivation you need to just have it kick your ass to continue working hard. So it's a combination of, yes, I saw my dad growing up out hustling everybody and just doing his thing, which I think you just cope as a kid. But the other part about it is I think I will always have a chip on my shoulder for good or bad, but I will tell you, I've learned this the hard way in that chip on the shoulder can be very stressful and it can be actually, you can put a lot of pressure on yourself. And the reason I share this is it goes into sales, which is in sales, anyone that's listening to this, sometimes we get this pressure of, I have this number, right? And no matter how hard I work, I can't get to this number. What I always tell people, I'm like, just remove the outcomes. You are not your outcomes. And the reason I share that is I've always had this pressure. I'm like, oh, my parents sacrificed so much. I need to do so much. I need to get there. But that is a lot of pressure you're putting on yourself as a person that I've just learned, whether it's in life or sales, control the controllables, right? And it's easier said than done. And trust me, I'm one of those freaks where I get so emotionally attached to my work, what my coworkers, what my customers think about me. But at some point you're like, if you've literally done everything you can and you can in your heart know that you've done that. You just have to move on to the next thing, you know? Anyway.

Yeah. And how about as far as like breaking it down? Because what works for me, when you've— you look at the outcome, instead of looking at just the outcome, it's like, what if I divide it by the number of days?

Yeah.

What do I need to do today to make just that little bit of progress? But make it quantifiable. Just don't tell yourself, I'm a little bit better.

100%. You nailed it. Sometimes we get, like, I'll tell you this, I've been fortunate to have a couple of years where I had a couple of years where I had 7 figures, and for the longest time that was such a big number. But then when you break it down, that like, hey, if you break it down, it comes out to $88K a year, right? $88K is $20K a week, right? $20K a week is $5K a day. What can you do that generates $5K a day? And work backwards. It can take you far, right?

Yeah.

But no matter how well you plan, how great you do, I don't care what anyone says, there's that component of luck, things that are outside of your control. It could be the market, right? It could be anything. So The stars do need to align and you, I don't care what anybody says, everyone's been fortunate that is in a fortunate situation to be a little, you know, to have a little bit of luck and to be a little lucky. But I've always found the harder you work and the more you network and the more you do and do the things that you should be doing that are the controllables, the luckier you get.

And you made a great point about hustling for the manager to build up that relationship, that trust, that confidence in the manager about you and your skills. Do you see a lot of people making that mistake of not doing that?

Yeah. So, well, it depends what scenario you're in, right? So whether it's your customer or your manager, whoever you need to, you know, get to that next stage in your career, right? You just gotta outwork for them. The way I look at this is like a pendulum, right? Like now I'm a consultant. So frankly, at any given time, sometimes I work for 2 or 3 clients. And anytime I take on a client, I literally ask myself, I'm like, for what they're paying me, can I provide more value when I walk away? Meaning when my interaction with them is done, whether it's a month, 2 months, 6 months, 12 months from now, If someone asks, hey, how well did Poya do? Are they going to be like a 5+, undeniable success? And in sales, it's pretty clear, right? It's your number. However, sometimes it's also things outside of that. Were they a good coworker? Did they treat me like a human? So those things also have an impact, right? Do they care about me? Do they give a shit? Are they going to go through the door? Those are some of the things I've always tried to do as well. I still talk with every manager I can and I stay in touch with them and I call them out of the blue and I just want to find out about what's going on with their family. I literally was on the phone with Don, who I've known for a long time earlier today. I'm like, hey, how's your daughter Julia in high school going? How's the move to New York going? Those things also have an impact because when people know you give you care about them, right? They pay it back. So where I have gone wrong with this is if for whatever reason there's a disagreement on something, like where you can tell, right? Like whether it's a VP or a manager, CEO or an AE, I think you need to address it. For the longest time, I used to hate confrontation, and there's some personal reasons of why that is, like just the way I've realized it. Now I actually run towards confrontation. Now I run towards issues because the longer it drags on, the worse it gets. So you either have to nip it in the butt immediately and own it and fix it, or if it's, if it, if you can't fix it, you either have to live with it or you, for whatever reason, worst case scenario, you need, you need to move on, right? So anyway, that was a full loaded answer, but—

And we talked about the hustling and grinding. When did your skill set allow you the freedom to not have to do or rely solely on the number of hours and focus on quality and skill and judgment and knowing what to work on and what order and how?

I, if we're being honest, that's always a, that's always a work in progress because some of those factors are outside of your control. Right? So like, I'll give you, I'll give you an example, right? If you've been in software sales or in my world, if you've been— majority of my income has come from selling sponsorships at SaaStr or selling sponsorships in general, right? Think about it. 2018 was a good year. '19 was a good year. 2020 market went to zero, like overnight. One of the markets that literally went to zero was events, restaurants, and you just had to come up with different ways of making money. So what I'm trying to say is some of that is outside of your control, right? Outside of your influence. But the things that I think have helped me is at any given time, what I've learned is have 2 things that complement each other, but they don't compete with each other. So I actually love doing the event sponsorship stuff where it's like selling almost like advertisement or media.

Right.

But I also love doing the software side. And for the most part, I've tried de-risking those things. So in 2020, at the beginning, when the market on one went to zero, the other one actually picked up, right? Remote work and whatnot. And now you're seeing actually the complete shift, right? For, to some extent. So I've been very fortunate to put myself in those scenarios. And what I've learned over the years is, Part of it is you just learn more about yourself. So I actually now assess opportunities so much more. I don't say yes to a lot of things in that, like, if someone's like, hey, I need you to come in for X, and if X does not align with where my strengths are or things that I'm interested to learn more about, I just now say no. And I'm like, let me refer you to this person, right?

Yeah.

So I think you just have to be a little more picky. So some of those things you can I've been much like, even though I need the income right now, like if someone asks me for help, if it doesn't align, I just say no because in the long run I've just, I've learned it's just not worth it, you know? So those are the things I would say I've gotten a little better at, which just comes with experience.

And what is the perfect match for your skillset?

I actually do really well in chaos, so I loved, I loved my time at I loved my time at Oracle, but the issue with Oracle is, or scenarios, and it makes a lot of sense, I'm just not one of those folks. Let me take a step back. So I think part of this is you have to know yourself really well. So I'm impatient, I get bored easily, and those are just characteristics I've had as a kid, right? So I like doing sometimes more than what my job entails, but I'm also, I'm a very good teammate. I go above and beyond for my team, but I'm not the best manager. And the reason is I don't put up with BS. And sometimes, frankly, as a manager, you just have to learn to put up with the BS, right? And just listen to it and be— and I don't, I just don't have the patience for that. So the reason I call that out is once you know, like, some of those personality characteristics, what ticks you, what doesn't, you can either work on it or you— it becomes like a criteria of how you assess situations. So about 5 years ago, I was like, hey, I'm pretty good at doing this AE job and I think I'm pretty good at doing it for a startup that has some traction, but they just need to put maybe some wildfire on it.

Yeah.

I'm like, that can go be my, you know, my ammo. Like, and the reason I think I'm very good at it is when I worked for some of these initial startups, like they didn't even have an agreement in place. Like they literally did not have a way to get a contract out. I'm like, okay, let's go build it, right? They didn't have the initial deck. I'm like, okay, let's go build it. You know, like And those things excite me, whereas I've had other counterparts I've met, and I don't blame them, it's just not in their DNA to go, hey, let's go figure this out. They are waiting for someone else to build it. And there's just so much to do at early stage companies that I've just learned that's where I do really well. And then the third one is I just have to be really excited about the space, the product, the problem we are solving, because Otherwise, if you're not excited, like if you can't sell yourself, I've just, I have a really hard time selling someone else on it. Right.

And what, so what is your strongest sales characteristic? Is it your passion or drive? I mean, because you've clearly had the success, so it's much more than just a lot of people work real hard.

I would say, look, it's, I think it's 3 or 4 things. One of the nice parts about Working for different companies, you get to see a lot of motions, you get to see a lot of businesses. And as soon as someone explains what they do, I very quickly can understand what their strengths are, what their flow is. I can anticipate the problems they're going to run into 6 months because I've seen enough cycles. It's almost like being a mini investor because—

Pattern matching.

I've seen those patterns. So that's part of it because it helps, right? The second part about it is I think I'm a fairly charismatic person that actually cares about the other side. Like, you really, at the end of the day, I think you need to give a shit and customers, clients, people see that. So part of it is just you need to give a shit about the other person and take some responsibility for their success and help them out. And the third part, again, I think I've said it, is just being fortunate to work with some people that have seen I've put in the time and the effort and the work that they're willing to vouch for me and continue to support me.

And do you manage people now or are you a hired gun? Is that how would you characterize it?

So for the most part, I'm an individual contributor. With that said, for most of the clients we have, we don't have like a full-time sales leader or sales manager. So some of those responsibility falls on me as well as my other team members, right? But that's by design, for good or bad, right? And some of the companies I've been at, I've been the person that's been there the longest. So with that comes with some responsibilities that you either have to accept or like you just don't have an answer to. And at times it seems unfair, but it just comes with the territory, right?

And so you've been exposed to a lot of salespeople. What do you think makes the best salesperson? If you were to build one, say you had ChatGPT for salespeople, you could raise a team.

Yeah, this is where I think, look, I think it's really important for everybody to have it. And a lot of people differently discuss, I actually think cloning it is where people go wrong. I do think you need to have a framework or process. But some of the things that make me unique as Poya, is some of the reasons why some of my clients and customers love me, right? Like, it's just what makes me unique. Like, we were at an event last week, SaaStr Europa, and I hung out with like the same 5 or 6 sponsors. And I remember one of them was like, hey, at these events, what do you like to do? And I'm like, honestly, this, you know, hanging out with customers, you know? And they're like, holy cow, that's so unique. And one of them even said, he's like, we do about 20 events. You're the only sponsor guy we'd like to hang out with. Right. So what I mean by that is, how do you clone that? I think it's very unfair to tell an introvert like, hey, go do this, right? And this is where I think some of us go wrong, where we're trying to clone other people's—

Well, not so much clone, but there's characteristics and skills.

100%. 100%. So I like— if you're asking me like, what are some of those characteristics? It's— I don't— at the end of the day, it's like you got to work hard and work smart, right? And the working smart comes from working hard. You got to put in the path, like you got to put put in the time, figure out what sticks, what doesn't, and kind of optimize for efficiency and time and everything. So part of it is that the biggest thing is attitude. I don't care what anybody says, that has so much to do with it, right?

Yeah.

And how you react to influences. Do you look at challenges as opportunities to grow? Right. And I struggle with this all the time, so I'm not saying I have the perfect answer, right? But I actually think a lot of sales has to do with the soft skills more than the hard skills, like in terms of the characteristics. But no matter what, if you ask me, the best salespeople know their product, they know the person they're talking to, they know like when an objective comes, they know exactly how to address it, right? And part of that frankly just comes with more at-bats, right? The more experience you get, the more you put yourself. But part of that also comes from you going out there, right? So Going back to my point, one of the ways I actually assess opportunities before I take any job, I literally try going and selling the freaking product I'm about to sell. The best example of this was Automile. At Automile, we did GPS tracking, fleet tracking. I'm like, dude, I don't know anything about fleets and you're selling to fleet managers, which I'm like, I don't know a single fleet manager in my network. So before I took this job, I literally Posted on Facebook. I'm like, hey, who, who, you know, like this one I'm thinking about, can I talk to someone? And I had a couple of friends be like, hey, talk to my stepdad, he does this. And we chatted extensively about what do you think about this opportunity? What are the challenges? Where am I going to struggle? And you know what the best part about it is? When you do that, not only do you get to learn and you get like either excited or you're like, ah, I don't want to do it. But the other part about it is some of those folks can end up becoming your customer. So before Automile, at HackRank, before I took that job, I literally went to a customer I had. I'm like, hey, this is what I'm thinking about doing. What will you tell me? And she's like, here's where I think the challenges are, but I think you guys can overcome it. I ended up taking the job. 4 months later, she ended up becoming at that time HackRank's biggest customer. So anyway, that's part of the characteristics, but I sometimes get very ticked when people are like, let's clone this person because—

Yeah. I didn't mean it like—

No, no, sorry.

Yeah, it was—

I misunderstood, but just trying to convey the point, that's all.

Well, you brought up a really good point that I don't think enough salespeople even consider. It's talking to your prospects and your clients to learn about them and what they care about that's independent of the product or adjacent to the product, because that's where the magic happens.

You nailed it.

Your 2 examples, one at the show and the other with somebody's stepdad, right? Because he became interested or curious at least because you were curious about him.

Yeah. Yeah. There's a saying in the world of venture, when you go and ask for feedback, you get money. And when you ask for money, you get feedback. I think that is so true. that to a point where I literally now, when for like super, super, super early stage companies, when I tried taking their product to market, I no longer ask for like, hey, let's— how does this— like, I genuinely just want to be like, hey, I'm going to show you this. I just want to get your feedback. And even if they don't end up becoming a customer, it becomes so valuable because back to your point about the pattern matching, you start hearing things that you're like, holy cow, I've heard this now 3 times. This is going to be our value prop, right? Let's go to market with this pitch, right? Anyway. Well, that's it.

Because what does everybody else do? They go and they go to sales enablement or marketing and they read the brochures and it's all done in the bunker. Yeah. People who've never met a customer or they met, you know, an existing customer that's been there for years and why they're happy. But that doesn't translate to the person who's never heard of you.

100%. It's, yeah, you gotta walk the customer's, you know, walk and find out what, you know, what gets them going before you can jump on the other side for good or bad.

And if you look back at your career, what do you wish you learned that first year at Oracle that you know today?

When it comes to these things, I try not having too many ifs because I genuinely, looking back, I'm glad I went through that because otherwise— You wouldn't have learned it. I wouldn't have learned it or been here. Look, in sales, there's some things like, I give you some sales examples, I'll give you the biggest lesson I've learned. The biggest sales example I've ever learned is it's a give and a take. And as soon as your gut, you're like, this deal's going to fall through, or this person doesn't have my interest, Your gut sometimes is right. And I remember there was one deal we kept forecasting and we kept forecasting. We went above and beyond for 6 months for this client. And after we took him to a really nice basketball game at Oracle Arena, give him the red carpet experience, the following Monday he's like, hey, sorry, we went with this other vendor. And to this day I'm like, oh, I should have went back 6 months ago to my gut that I shouldn't have Went in here. So the lesson I learned there is try getting to a yes or no as soon as you can, right? Don't waste too much time on the maybes because it's just easier. But I'm glad I learned that at 22 and not much later. With that said, the biggest lesson I think I've learned is most of us are as good as anybody else to get things done. I just think A lot of us have ideas and this and that. The most successful people I've met, they just go for it. You know, they take action. And that's the thing I wish I had done. We talked about earlier how I started this podcast. Probably for 10 years I was like, oh, I think I should do a podcast. I should do a podcast. Finally in 2020, I do. And I've, I've now done 160 episodes. I've met some amazing people through it. I've probably— we've probably done maybe quarter of a million in sponsorships since I've started it. Right. So the reason I call that out is like, ideas are cheap, talk is cheap. At some point you just got to, you know, take action. Yeah.

Cool. Hey, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

I try being very approachable, but the best place is probably LinkedIn. I've actually cut out most other social media, at least during the week. I find it very distracting. So find me on LinkedIn and I think it's, if you just go to linkedin.com, I'm like the only Poya You'll meet in terms of the URL, but we'll put in the show notes maybe as well just to make it easier.

Remember how I always use the analogy that the value of the relationship you have with the client is directly proportionate to their willingness to talk with you when they don't need something, when it isn't simply transactional, meaning that I want something, you have something, you give me something, I give you something back. That's transactional. But what we heard in this case is when they were at the conference, they wanted to spend time with the rep. That, that's a pretty good litmus test to how strong the relationship is and if there is a relationship. And the relationship We all hopefully know by now why it's so important. It's because it's the conduit. It's the highway of communication. It's the openness, the ability to be on the same page and understand each other and communicate clearly and completely and to feel understood. That's what it's all about. Sure, in our head, we think they understand us, but what's in their head? What's in their heart? What are they feeling about it? Are they connecting with it? Are they really understanding with it? I think this was a great case study in how to separate out what makes a great rep. And I get a little bit of pushback on LinkedIn about this. It's like, well, what about the other 95%? Well, if the other 95% don't want to become great, why are they in sales? I get it that it pays better than a lot of other stuff, but it only pays better if you become great at it. And you should give yourself a little pat on the back that you're Listening to a sales podcast. I get it. You could be listening to a bunch of conspiracy theories and UFO stuff out there. And I get it. I listen to some of it too. But to listen to something to make yourself better at your profession, a lot of people don't do that. A lot of people get that first level of success, that B-player trap. Where they're comfortable and they have some evidence that they can sell and a little history and enough confidence out there. But then they stop and they start going down this downward spiral. And that downward spiral can go pretty far down because people aren't pushing themselves to become better every day. It's a performance profession, a performance art. And to become better at it every day. You got to find little distinctions and hook onto them. I'm not talking about tips and tricks. I'm talking about better ways of looking at the profession and getting better at it. There's a lot more to it than subject lines and call to actions. A lot of people have turned sales into stupidity. It's not about spam. It's not about just getting the meeting. It's about closing the deals and building lifetime relationships with people because that's what makes the next one easier. And you don't have to start from scratch. If you want to continue really digging into your career and taking it to the next level, go to b2brevenue.com and join one of the courses. What do you get with it? You get access to all these great examples, case studies, the best of the best that I've seen out there. And I was talking to a student just yesterday and they shared what another vendor had brought in as a sales process. And we were laughing at it. And this is not a small name in the industry, huge name. Huge. And how naive and clearly they have never sold, or they've just been an order taker or an account manager, which I really don't consider sales. That's customer success. Nothing wrong with it. It's just a different profession. But if that's not you and you have to go create interest, Find somebody who has the problem that you solve and build it into a real need. Then you're really a salesperson because you can create something from nothing. Anyone can take an order. You could pay somebody $20K to take an order. To create an order is an art. It's a talent. It's a skill. And it's something that you have to constantly be developing because it rots really quickly. It's much like any other performance. So take your performance to the next level. And it's not just knowledge. The knowledge is the start. It's the repetitions with emotion and case studies so that you can see the same examples, the cause and effect over and over again. Because the large complex sale is nothing but one large trap after another with no ill intent, none whatsoever. It's just the situation. And we happily just walk into each of those traps and then shake our head and go, how did I do that again? Let's not do that again. Go to b2brevenue.com right now. Sign up today. We'll see you there. And thank you for listening and tell a friend about the show.