WITHOUT THIS YOU ARE JUST A CLERK WITH IT YOU ARE UNSTOPPABLE IN B2B SALES

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So, what do you think of trust in sales, Dustin? Is that an issue that comes up quite a bit or?

Yeah, I think there's only so far you can get with being charming and witty and whatnot. At some point, I think you have to build up that trust with the customer, especially in the complex sale when you're gonna be working with them for months and years. And unfortunately, I think probably the default for salespeople from a customer standpoint is that they don't trust salespeople. So I think that's just like the default going into it. So you have to kind of break through that. I know for me personally, I actually typically trust people until proven otherwise. So that might be a fault of mine that might be a little too naive, but I usually trust people until they prove otherwise. But I think the customers, because of whatever's happened over the years, probably don't trust salespeople out of the gates, and you have to kind of build that up.

Well, let's start there. When you say you trust people until they give you a reason not to, what does that mean to you?

I guess it's just kind of going to the, the mindset side of it. I try to have a positive mindset, growth mindset, and I think if you automatically are questioning people or you think they're out to get you or something, then it's probably not the right way to look at it. So when I work with people, whether it's customers or, you know, vendors, consultants, whatever it may be, I kind of trust them until proven otherwise. So I'll give them a shot essentially until they maybe don't follow up, they don't follow through, they don't do what they say they're going to do, then I won't have as much trust, but I kind of have this blanket of trust with folks out of the gates, which probably can make me a little naive at times, but I just want to give people the benefit of the doubt until they do something to prove otherwise, essentially.

And that brings up an interesting point because what I heard was that they do what they say, they follow through. And is that— and that is trust. If you look up in the dictionary, you do what you say, you're reliable. And then people say, oh, I know about the product. Well, okay, that's good. Good. Someone knows about the product, but is that enough trust?

I think that's just kind of table stakes to know that stuff. You know, if you don't know that, if you don't know that stuff, then you're in big trouble. I think it's more showing up consistently, holding up to your commitments, you know, making them look good, whatever it is. It could be basic follow-up stuff. I mean, even just a follow-up email from a meeting. Setting up the appointment on time, showing up, I mean, delivering whatever you have to deliver for the customer. I mean, I think all that stuff kind of adds up. And if you are consistent with it and you do that, maybe you don't get a lot of business at first, but if you're doing what you need to do for 3, 6 months, and I mean, that stands out. Unfortunately, I don't think everyone really does those small things consistently. So if you can do that, I think that stands out to the customer. And of course you get the bigger situations where it's You know, if you're talking multi-six-figure deals, multi-seven-figure deals, I mean, that's putting a lot on the line for the customer. So if something gets messed up there, that can probably ruin trust for a long time. But I think it's those smaller things that kind of build up with basic things. Like if you say you're gonna send a follow-up email and then over time that turns into bigger trust that, that you can kind of build up.

But would you give your, I don't know if you have a pet or not, or have a spare key to your home. Would you give them a spare key to your home when you're away for a week or two? Check, water the plants?

Not the people that I just met. The people that I know for years.

Why not?

Yeah. Well, yeah, some people I work with, but not, not every single person. But yeah, I mean, it's people that I know, like, and trust from years of things that have gone on. So, oh, so there's levels of trust. There's different There's levels of trust. That's what you're getting at. Nice. Yeah.

Well, you know, because doing the reliable things, that's kind of the service rep view of the world. The level of trust that I've seen and heard from the best reps is that they have the client's interest in mind above their own. And that's the kind of the people you give the key to your home to when you go away for 2 weeks. Because you trust more in them than the house being vacant and the likelihood of something going wrong, or taking care of your kids or your pet, and that they'll do it and not just say, oh yeah, yeah, I stopped by. You know, they drove by. And I think that's the trust that the client really wants is because you're saying stuff, you're doing stuff, and we know you're on commission and it's your job. But then, but do you really care about what I really need? Because I think trust in business to business is very different than trust in B2C. In B2C, I think those core elements, you do what you say, you're telling the truth, you're following through. That's, that's enough. You really don't have to have my interest above your own when I buy a car. I know that's not going to exist. And maybe it should or shouldn't, I don't care. But if I'm, if I'm helping change the company that also improves my job and I put you in front of my boss, I need to know that you have my interest in mind.

Yeah, there's definitely different levels the more we're talking about it. So especially in the complex sale, because you're dealing with a lot bigger stakes, so it's, it's not just that transactional. So yeah, I mean, I think it's, it goes along with kind of putting yourself in their, their shoes, the being empathetic, like understanding what they're going through, and then being able to point them in the right direction. Like they might be, they think they need something, but you really know that They'd be much better off going this direction and you have to kind of talk them into that. But they, you know, eventually will understand that you're trying to put their best foot forward. And then also sometimes you have to walk away from situations like if it's not a good fit for both sides. If you do that, that will build up a lot of trust and maybe they'll refer you to somebody else that does make sense or delivering bad news. Like if you, if you can't hit milestones, if there's a major supply chain issue, your top rep quit and the manager has to tell the customer what happened or whatever. So I mean, there's all That also brings a lot of trust too. I mean, the times where I think people like me the most was after we had a really tough situation and we had some major supply chain problem or somebody quit, whatever happened. And then you have those kind of heart-to-heart conversations and you end up being like best friends with those folks afterwards after you do that. So I think, yeah, there's certainly a bigger level of it with a complex sale. And I think if you do what you say you're gonna do, but also think in their perspective and walk away from things or point them in the right direction or have deliver bad news like that, that can increase it as well.

Yeah. And ask those tough questions, the questions that you may not want the answer to, but they tend to build trust. You know, is this, is the timing right when you're trying to You know, work on the timing with them to say like, "Oh well, you know, if if this is two years out, we're just too premature. The technology is going to change. All this stuff is going to change. We're just too early." And I think what I hate today is that sales reps use the "I'm a trusted advisor," okay? This is how delusional you are. No one believes your advice because it's self-serving. You have your interest above everybody else's, obviously. So you're not an advisor, you're a salesperson. They didn't call you up for your advice. You're not a consultant and they don't trust you. So you're not a trusted advisor. That's unless the only way you're going to have that level of trust is maybe After the first order or so, and you've really proven yourself, you've earned it over time with evidence and honesty and proactiveness. Because I see too many reps just say, oh, I'm a trusted advisor. And it's like, you're not even sensitive enough to understand you're lying to yourself. And it's just this rationalization. You know, it's the 2 ears, one mouth bullshit that everyone says. Oh, now you're a good listener. Because you know the platitude. So the, the, the need to build trust is paramount because that is the conduit of which communication happens. If they don't trust you, they don't tell you the truth. They don't tell you the whole truth. They tell you what they want you to know. They talk to you when they want something, not when you want to talk, and you end up being that service rep instead of the trusted advisor. Behave like a trusted advisor, but don't use that term because— or don't even believe in that term. I, I did a poll on LinkedIn because this was bugging me a year or two ago. How long does it take before you trust somebody you work with? What do you think that time period was? Was it 1 meeting, 2 meetings?

It was probably like 5+ or something meetings.

It's like 6 months to a year of working with them. Wow. Wow.

So that's what—

and I didn't define trust. That was up for their interpretation of it. And, you know, just think of your friends. How long is it before you trust, I mean, trust them to the point of giving them the keys to your car or your house? Something that you really have to have faith that they're not going to party in your house. They're not going to camp out or give the key to somebody else who needs a place to stay that weekend or Airbnb it for the week while you're gone. Or say, hey, that's a great TV you got, look better in my apartment than yours. That takes a while because it's your stuff.

All right, well, I'm not going to trust anybody after this conversation, but no, yeah, it's true though. I mean, it takes, it takes time. I, I mean, that goes back to having that short-term mentality. If you don't, if you're not in it for the long haul, the customer can read right through that and they know that you're just in there to try to make a commission, get a deal done, and then not really care about them. So you, you, it, it does take 6+ months to probably build it up with a lot of customers, especially depending on what you're selling. But that's, that's pretty, pretty standard. And I think they can tell when you go above and beyond, when you, when you kind of put your neck on the line for whatever that situation is. So I think that definitely can, can stand out for sure. Do you think because, uh, the customers maybe don't Or it takes a while to build up trust to the customer. Do you think that out of the gates they probably don't tell us everything on purpose because they don't have that trust? So that's pretty much a standard out of the gates for a long period of time.

A long period of time, you know, especially when we're not face to face physically, when we're not in the same room online. I mean, if you really took the transcript, you could Black out the bullshit. There wouldn't be much left. You know, they're not telling you who else they're looking for. They're not telling you what's behind this. They're not telling you what their personal wins are. They're telling you, you know, oh, that looks interesting. Not sure. Don't know. Oh, I'm the decision maker.

Yeah.

And this is why it's 100% on us to. Build that trust. And I don't mean lead with the hard questions, but I think you have to build rapport and you really have to dig into what are they up against, what, why are they here today, and, and plan through it and do your homework so that you're not, you know, asking them about their company, simple stuff you could get off their website. That you prepared questions and you're curious about them and what they're doing and what they care about instead of you throwing up about how great the product is and why you've got to pick us above everybody else and then hounding them. Hounding is not selling. And I just see this so often is that people— I'll send them another follow-up email. Well, that doesn't do anything for them. That's 100% for your benefit, not theirs. What, what do they want? They may not know what they want, but you've been dealing with clients for years. What did other clients want? Want to talk to another customer? They want to see the product. They want to put their hands on it. They want to think through it. What did other people experience, good and bad? You know, that's why the, the 5-star reviews aren't believed, you know, but the 4.5 are because nothing's perfect. Yeah.

Make it about them, care about what they care about and, and not just the cookie cutter stuff. And I think they're expecting the whole features and benefits and just shoving that down their throat. So if you do the other approach, it kind of It does help build up that, that trust pretty quickly. And then, yeah, I mean, there's, I don't want to say basic stuff, but case studies, referrals. I mean, falling on the sword if you guys did something wrong or admitting to things in the past that didn't go so well and kind of owning up to it. I mean, all that stuff can kind of, can kind of help as well. And I always, places that I worked for, for years and customers, like I had several times when people asked me if I wanted to work for them. And I always kind of saw that as like the ultimate sort of Compliment that you did build up that trust. If you have a customer that wants you to work there for whatever reason, I mean, that that usually means that you did something right with the trust. But it didn't happen overnight, and you had to do a lot of small things here or there to to build it up. But I guess what what are some bigger things you can do? Is it like showing them case studies like other customers similar to them? Is it letting them reach out to referrals? If you you know are further down the path, what what else do you think really stands out above and beyond? I guess once you get deeper into the conversations with them?

I think it is doing all the things that we think we should be doing, but we're trying to get out of, like the referrals, but, you know, a deep referral, not just sending them the name and number of somebody, but scheduling it for them, setting it up for them, giving them questions, telling them the, that backstory of what they went through. And be honest with them if they're going to run into friction along the way and let them know. You say this is going to happen. There was one guy in the course that his deals kept dying because the people who were going to use the product pushed back. They were used to a paper process and, you know, and the client would just delay the deal. And I said, well, tell them they're gonna run into that and that everybody runs into it, and it's gonna take a couple of weeks for people to get used to it. But then once they're used to it, they love it because we are selling change pretty much to buy anything changes how you do things, even if it's just getting the order done. But typically it changes workflow, not just yours, but other people's. And as soon as you touch someone else's workflow, you're gonna get pushback because people are used to it. Even if it's the dumbest way on earth to do it, they, they're used to it. And that's why the change— that's why you see, you know, old people still using, you know, rotary phones. They're used to it. They're not— they don't argue with you that there's a better way to do it. They're just used to the old way of doing it. So if you help them through that process, they kind of bond with that because, oh, that, that is helpful to them because that's going to save them time through the process. Too many people are just smiling and nodding. Here's the proposal, hoping it goes through, and then they get pushed back and then they're trying to repair it then. And then it's too late because the argument's already over. They don't want to go back and do it again.

Yeah, and I mean, if you don't get that frontline or end user feedback, it potentially can go haywire to your point. So being upfront with them on that of like, hey, here's all the naysayers and what they're going to say. It's not going to be fun those first few months, but then over time it should kind of even out. That kind of brings me back to the med device days. A lot of folks. that I worked with were trying to avoid doing trials and pilots because it was a free trial and pilot.

Yeah.

And it, and it appeared that it would delay things and be more work, but it actually would, would speed them up in the long run because you'd get the buy-in from those frontline staff that were actually using the products. And then if you didn't have them somewhat on your side, they could like revolt and never use the product, which means nobody got paid or nobody really benefited that much. So yeah, I think with trials and pilots, or maybe you have to do more work on the front end, probably do give some stuff away for free, give your time away for free for an extended period, but it can actually speed it up and it builds that trust that you actually put in the work and that you care about how it's going to affect their business and their day-to-day for their whole team. Because if you don't, you know, it's one thing to get the top down on board with it, but they have no idea what's going on at the ground level. So if you don't work with the people at the ground level, Then they're gonna revolt against the, the, the higher up folks. So I think that, that trial and pilot thing was, was something that really stood out to me is building up trust. Like I, and I look, I went back and tracked every time I did a trial, I think it was 90% close. So it's like, okay, that, that's why I'm doing it, right?

Yeah. I mean, and people get wrapped around the axle on the trial thing. It's like, should I charge for it? Should I not charge for it? I go, if you can charge for it, You know, who cares? The point from the customer standpoint is clearly if they want to try it, they're not comfortable with it yet. So whether they pay for it or not, you're just adding a mini sale in front of your big sale because they still have to go through the process even if it's $1. So how are they gonna get comfortable with the product? And during the trial, you have a reason to stay in touch with them. How is it going? Did you run into anything? A lot of people run into this. Have you noticed that? Oh no, we figured that out. You know, do you need to connect with anything? Who else needs to see it? Who wants to get comfortable with it? And all of a sudden, the transfer of ownership is taking place. Too many people just want to cram it through.

Right.

The trial gets in the way of me sending a proposal. Well, sending a proposal may not be a good step. It may be the death knell, not an accelerator to your deal. And this is a big difference between the simple sale and the complex sale. The complex sale is like a snowball. You keep pushing it, it gets bigger and bigger, bigger and bigger, more and more likely to close. Because why are they communicating with you if they're not interested in the product? Unless you're talking about just weather and sports, they want to keep this moving. And it is that connection that you're trying to build. And you got to ask yourself, if this person ran into professional problems— let's say they get laid off in the middle of the sales process— would they call you and ask for help finding a job? If the answer is no, they probably don't trust you.

Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's a great one. And, and, and, you know, what I'm doing now too, it's like they, if I'm gonna come talk to their sales team or whatever organization, they wanna feel good about it too. So they wanna see me that I've been on podcasts or that I've done some speaking or that we have our stuff together on the website. So it's, it seems like it's smaller stuff, but I think people really, you have to kind of build that up over time. You know, having recommendations on LinkedIn. So I have all this stuff that I've kind of built up. Over time, because I know with what I do now, if it's speaking or training, they want to see that stuff, and it just helps kind of build that credibility. But it didn't happen overnight. That's like me doing stuff for the well really for years, and a lot of it. But it's interesting about that. And then yeah, the trial thing. I actually a lot of companies literally require vendors to do trials depending on what it was. I know med device that was super common that the hospitals would actually require. Vendors to do trials. So you pretty much almost had to a lot of times, and it was free, unfortunately. But then there were some people that would try to charge for it, and then it would delay it another 3 or 4 months. So that was just a big disaster. So yeah, it's, uh, I mean, and then the other thing too is kind of on the accountability side, to stop lying to yourself. I mean, you got to realize that you got to build that trust up. It's not going to happen overnight. You can't just like shove stuff down people's throats, and you have to Kind of put, put their perspective first. And otherwise you're just gonna keep running into the same problems. So I think you, you probably lie to yourself sometimes too, and you think that you already have this trust, but it, like, for example, when I do my own thing now, it's, I can use a lot of the credibility from the past that, that certainly helps me, but I also have to build up credibility with what I'm doing now. And that's, you know, a different process. So you, you have to kind of just be realistic with yourself too on, on the trust.

Yeah, because I did another poll. It's like, do you feel your prospects, not your customers, but your prospects view you as a trusted advisor? And it was like 80% said yes. And I would have loved to poll their customers. I think it would have been—

You should.

I think it would have been less than 10%. And ask yourself, in any sales situation, did you trust The salesperson. Did you think that they had your interest above their own when you were getting an apartment, a car, a house, a TV, whatever? Or do they view you just in the value of the transaction?

Definitely the transaction. Again, I'm sympathetic to salespeople, but they're, you know, you can definitely smell that commission breath with, with those situations of, well, they're not making commission probably at that type of stuff, but they might be. They might be. Right.

Or if you lost your job, would you call them for help?

No. Right.

Why not? They don't care. That's why not. Right? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

But if they sense that you cared about them independent of the transaction, You found out you got into a car accident, enter you in the hospital. Did they check on you? Did they ask you how you're doing? You know, what was the process like? Did they show interest in you as a person instead of you as a functional cog in their life and their job?

Yeah. Did they reach out to you? Did they help you out when they didn't need anything in return? Essentially, right? Or like, does the customer respond to you or want to talk when there's no business to talk about and they just want to catch up on stuff? Or I think this one guy I used to work with, he was, he was pretty funny. He liked to, you know, have a good time later at night. And he was like, if, if the customer doesn't respond to you when they're, you know, having a couple drinks at the bar, then that means they probably don't really care much about you instead, instead of the, uh, the business side. So. Yeah, interesting stuff. And then I think, what about being an expert in a certain area? So if you have a real niche that you build up for yourself, you know, there's always those reps that have been around for a long time and they're like the go-to for whatever technical specialty. You can also kind of build up that trust if you're the go-to for a certain niche and specialty, and you've— whether just because you've been doing it for years or you just have like a different perspective. Like when I was doing the med device I had this whole kind of nurse med device sales rep connection that I was trying to do on LinkedIn and whatnot. And it kind of stood out because I was like advocating for nurses and not a lot of other people were, at least publicly. So I think if you can build a niche in some type of specialty, that, that can also build trust because people will come to you about stuff that they might not go to other people.

That works, but that they will only come to you when they need that.

True. True.

Yeah.

I've got a great story about trust. When I was looking for a job a while, a long time ago, this one headhunter I knew, he'd call me every day around 4 o'clock, but he wouldn't talk about openings or stuff. He would ask about me, you know, who'd you meet with? Anything you like out there? How you feeling about this? And then talk about where do you see your career going? Do you want to get into leadership? What did you like about your last job? It was every day he called me. And why was he doing that? He wanted to build up that trust in me, and he didn't look at it just as that one placement. Now, I probably put Quarter to half a million dollars in his pocket and referrals and placements over the years.

Wow.

Yeah. Invited to his wedding. So, and that, and you may say, well, that doesn't really pay off in my space. Well, maybe not every day at 4, but maybe once a week, maybe talking to the people. And the idea is to build up The trust. And today, and I've seen comments about it because I, I did a post yesterday on it, that a lot of people outside of sales saw it as obsolete, that it's no longer needed, that it's old school. Well, it's old school until you need it. Everything is worthless until you need it. And when do you need it during the sale? Pretty much when things don't go well. You don't need it if things are going well. It's in procurement. Yeah, who cares if he calls me back? I get the order. I don't care. But if it stalls and it goes, you don't know where it is, wouldn't you like to have that conversation? At least know what happened if it didn't go positively?

Oh yeah. Oh yeah, for sure. I mean, it's with what I'm doing now. I mean, my neck is Permanently on the line, right? So it's all about trust and my reputation and all that. So that's all I— that's not all I have, but that's a big part of what I'm doing. I mean, I need people to trust me out of the gates and based off what I've done in the past, and then as I talk them through it. So yeah, it's a really interesting topic. And yeah, that trusted advisor thing, that cracks me up because I see it all the time everywhere. So I'll make sure not to use that on any of my posts or when I'm talking with folks.

And to become great at sales, the best way is to model somebody who already has become good at sales and to hear other people who have become great at sales and the journey that they're going through, the false beliefs, the misnomers, the mindset issues, all of the stuff that gets in our way between where we are in the income that we want. Let's face it, we're in sales because we're money motivated, we're competitive, we want to be better every day than we were yesterday. And how do we do that? Just really, you know, read a book, listen to a podcast. That's good. Good start. I like it. But then you have to take action. And then you want both tactical and strategic ideas. You want mindset. You want strategy. You want to understand how companies buy. You want really deep content and examples, case studies, so that you can learn from other people's mistakes.

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Why won't you?

Why won't you? Oh, it takes time. Well, you work all day. You're working wrong all day. Why not improve that? There's the time right there. Oh, the money, Brian. It's money. Well, you make more money if you become better in sales. And Start the Conversation pays for itself the first week because you're going to get at least 2 meetings just Learning from the very basics of it. Closing the Complex Sale will pay for itself 100 times over. Students in it tell me it's the best money they ever spent because they now have control over their deals. And it doesn't end. Some give up. Some give up after they win their first deal and they think they've got enough. No, come back. Come back. Keep going. You can get even bigger deals, more deals, faster deals. That's what it's all about. Sign up today. Put the excuses away. Yeah, excuses feel good, but they're expensive. Excuse— you know what the excuses are costing you? Tens, 50, maybe a couple hundred thousand dollars a year in lost income. Really?

Yeah.

The difference between where you are today— let's say you're making $150,000. Decent, decent income. But you know, there's other people in your industry making $300K, $400K, $500K. Well, how are you going to do that? You all think it's just about getting a better job, a better territory, a better manager. They can help. Go do that. Then what happens? It's still you there with those leads, trying to close those deals. And Do you have the game?

Few people do.

Everyone thinks they do. Why not prove it? The market tells you what you're worth.

Accept it.

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