How to Improve Your Coaching Website - Site Audits With Jennie Lakenan

I have Jenny Layton here, and years ago, I wrote an article where I ranked the best coaching websites that I knew of. And I kept coming to one site, one person site who made all the websites, and it was Jenny. And since then, we've kind of been in touch. I've had some clients work with her. I really love how focused you are, Jenny, on specifically working with coaches, because it's not like you can just apply a general website template to a coaching or online course business. There's certain things you really need to get right if you want to book consults, if you want to get people to sign up for your email list. And I love that you have beautiful sites, but also that convert and that work. And I find that a lot of times people are one or the other. So excited to talk with you. How are you doing today?

So good. I'm excited for this. It's fun to, like, we've talked so much, you know, just via email. It's really fun to, like, meet in person and. Yeah, I'm excited to talk today.

Yeah, I'm curious to hear a little bit more. I know that you kind of have roots in the Life Coach School, right? I know you've worked with a lot of clients there and you had your own journey as a coach a little bit and doing coaching with others before you started doing websites. Could you share a little bit how you came upon this work?

Yeah, for sure. So I found coaching, oh, gosh, it's been like five, six years ago now. And it was through the Life Coach School and the Life Coach School podcast. And I really, like, I. I didn't even join their program or anything as, like, a client. I just was listening to the podcast and, like, learning the tools kind of passively and. But even that was so powerful and, like, changed so many things. My relationship with my husband got better. Like, I lost a bunch of baby weight. I, like, was dealing with postpartum depression that I didn't even really realize I was dealing with. And, like, I was able to kind of get through that, and it was just so amazing. And I was like, I love these tools. I love what I'm learning through coaching and thoughtwork and all the tools that we learned there. And I thought, oh, well, I'm going to be a life coach. Like, this is awesome. This is. This is my dream career, you know, And. And so I did what I think we all do when we're checking out, like, a new career and kind of seeing if it's for us. Like, I started talking to many coaches as would give me the time of day, like, online, I would just find them, like, on social media and stuff. And a lot of them were going through training, like, with the Life Coach School currently at, like, at that time. Um, and so they were giving away a lot of free coaching. And I'd, like, sign up for a free coaching call. And then in the last, like, five minutes, I'd be like, okay, great. Now would you just, like, tell me what I can do to, like, prepare to go through certification myself, whether it's through the Life Coach School or some somewhere else. And they all were so sweet and of course, like, answered my questions. And the more that I went through that process and, like, looked them up beforehand just to kind of get an idea of who they were, the more I realized, like, oh, these coaches either don't have a website or their website is not doing them justice. Like, it's not showing the skills and the caliber of coaching that they have that they're learning, you know, through this really great certification program. And, you know, like we do as entrepreneurs. I was like, oh, well, that's a problem that needs to be solved and I can solve that. Like, that's something, you know, I had kind of a technical background, but also I knew I just could learn whatever I needed to learn, too, to. To. To do that. And so I started building websites for coaches thinking like, oh, this is just kind of like an interim thing. And eventually I'll still certify and then I'll go full time with coaching. But by the time I actually finished certification, I had just this beautiful web design business helping coaches, and I loved it. And I also realized I can get way more coaching out into the world by helping coaches with their websites than I can just by being a coach myself. So that's kind of where I came about. Like, I am a certified coach through the Life Coach School, and I've worked with coaches, a lot of coaches in that program, as well as in lots of other programs, certification programs, and it's just amazing work. I don't actually have a coaching practice other than when I coach my clients through the web design process, which, if anyone's ever written copy, they know, like, there's a lot of stuff that comes up.

So yeah, yeah, 100%. That's great. Do you feel like I want to also tease for folks that we are going to do some audits of three or four sites after I ask Jenny some questions and we'll look at real examples of this? Do you feel like websites still matter? Like, you know, Some coaches will have a just social media presence or an Instagram profile. You can absolutely build a business that way. Or there's the thinking of like, oh, it's not a website, it's like a funnel which is like, okay, sort of. It's kind of the same thing, but like versus landing pages and things like that. So what is the role of a website these days for coaches? Why is it still important?

Yeah, that's a good question. So like, like you said, you can absolutely have a business with a social media presence and not have a website. But I still, I know that it still matters because I get coaches that come to me and they're like, yeah, I know I don't need a website. And I kind of almost feel a little bit of shame about it. But they're like, but I talk to people and they're like, oh yeah, this sounds, you know, like potential clients. And like the potential clients like, oh yeah, this sounds really interesting. Or maybe they are like, oh, my sister could totally use you or whatever. And the next question is always, what's your website? So that I can send them there or I can follow up with you after this. And so, and then the coach is kind of like, oh, and then I feel a little bit insecure being like, oh, well, just DM me on Instagram or like, you know, whatever. And I think it's still really important because you are who Google says you are ultimately. And if someone can't Google your name and have like some kind of website come up, even if it's a really simple like one pager, I mean, to me it just, it, it says something about your credibility. It says something about how seriously you're taking your business. And you know, if you have like a funnel, I think that's a, that's for sure a step up. Like having a sort of like a set of landing pages that all leads to each other. Like, that's definitely a step up from not having a website at all. But I do still think that people are used to kind of coming to that homepage. They're used to the user experience of, you know, being able to explore the site on their own as a user, like clicking about and work with you in a blog or podcast or whatever you have there. It's like akin to having a storefront, you know, like in an in person storefront. People want to be able to come in and browse and click around and not just be kind of like taken where you think they should go. They want that freedom. So it's my Opinion.

Agreed. Yeah. And I think having a home base is important too. Right. Because then you can own the audience if it's on your email list versus another platform. You can kind of bring everything to a central place that, that you control the experience of. Just because a website isn't necessary to get clients doesn't mean it's not helpful to get clients. Right. Like you don't need to be good at sales to get clients, but like you'll get a bunch more clients if you're good at sales. You don't need to have a defined niche, but like you're going to get a lot more clients if you have one. So this is one component. I think some people go too far to one side. They're either like websites don't really matter. I'll just have my social profile and I can just DM clients. Or they're like, the website is everything and if I can perfectly get it with the right statement on top and have the website, clients will just come to me. And I think there's problems with that thinking as well.

Yeah.

What do you think are the main pages that people should have on their site? Is there just thinking about the architecture of a site, what are the three to five most important components of the site?

For sure. I actually have this all spelled out in a coach website blueprint because I think it's all can be very. There is like a standard structure that works really well for a coach. So first having your homepage, of course that's like your landing spot where people hit as soon as they visit just your root domain. And I think that the goal of that page, if you have an email list, the goal of that page really should be to get someone to put in their name and their email and hit subscribe and get on your list. Because typically when someone comes to that page, they're curious, but they're not necessarily ready to hit like schedule now and book a free call and get on, you know, become a client. But they're curious and they want a way to like get more information from you. So homepage that's leads to some kind of opt in an about page that explains, you know, who you are and what your story is and really how you can help them based on your origin story really. And the goal of that page again can be like a lead gen, a work with me page, or some people call it services. But I think for a coach, Work With Me feels more personable, it feels more like relatable. And the goal of the Work with me page really is to, it's more your sales page. It's doing harder work to like sell them on that free call. And people will ask me, they're like, well, should it sell my program or should it sell the free call? And I'm. My opinion is if you are offering a free call, like a consult or sales call as part of your sales process, it should sell them on the call because agreed, that's the next step that they have to take. Like, let's just sell them on taking the next step. But you can really sell it well by explaining like, hey, these are this I'm going to teach you the number one tip that helps you or the number one tool that helped me to recover from my divorce. Or I'm going to teach you the top three. You know, you're, you're going to have the top three steps that you need to take next to land that job that you really want or whatever. Like regardless of if we work together, this is what you're going to get. And that really will make it more likely that someone will click the button and schedule a call, which is the call to action that we want on that work with me page. The next page I think that is really, really helpful is to have some kind of blog or podcast area. Now I don't necessarily think everyone needs this in the very beginning because I think sometimes content marketing on your website can be a little bit of a distraction depending on how well you know your audience. And so if like you're way in the beginning stages and even just creating a one page website seems like a huge lift for you, then for sure that's an. A blog or podcast can be an advanced tactic that you can implement later. Um, but I do think that having some kind of like blogger podcasts, not only does it help with SEO, which you know, is how you and I met for sure, but it also, it gives people a way to consume free content from you if, and get value if they're not comfortable enough yet to like get on your email list and give you their email. It's, it's a step that they can take. And then the last kind of set of pages that I think is really helpful is going back to those landing pages that we were talking about earlier. Having an opt in page that someone can, that doesn't have any navigation. Its only goal is really just to get someone to put in their name and their email and get the free thing, whatever it is, free video, free PDF that you offer. Um, and not having like a dedicated page for that. I Know, we're offering it to them on your homepage and maybe in some other places on your site. But having a dedicated page for that makes it really easy for you to more effectively get emails from social media or from like a speaking gig that you might be doing. You can send people directly to that page instead of having them get kind of distracted by like all the other navigation and things going on on your website. And then of course, having like a custom thank you page that after that they see after they put in their name in their email is really helpful. And that thank you page, you know, just, it's a good, it's just a good user experience that says, hey, go check your email. Make sure you got this email that I'm sending you right now. Oh, and hey, here's this little video where I introduce myself and I, you know, I just love video as like a marketing tool because it's such a great way to build trust quickly. And they can hear your voice. You can tell them a little bit about you, provide a little bit of value maybe based on whatever the freebie is about that you're gonna send them and then call to action to schedule. And you have your scheduling link below the video.

I love that because I feel like the thank you page is the most overlooked page on people's websites. And for years I had just the like, check your email and make sure it's not in spam thing, which is fine.

Yeah.

But the momentum you have after they downloaded the lead magnet with that small step to be able to use that momentum to have them book a consult, for example, is huge. And there's other things you can do, low price products and stuff like that. But I really feel like maximizing that thank you page with a step that's a little bit higher Commitment is such a huge opportunity for most coaches.

Psychologically. They're never more likely to say yes than they are in that moment when they've. They've just said yes to something else. So, yeah, it's. It's powerful.

I had heard that years before I implemented it, that thank you page strategy. And I just didn't get around to implementing it. And then when I finally did, it was like console, console, console. I was like, why did I not do this earlier? Um, okay, so let's try to recap those pages for people. So we had the homepage, we had blog slash, podcast work with me page, lead magnet specific page and thank you page was that the five about about is actually about page six. Okay, about page I. I agree with you. Too on the work with me page, really selling the call. Um, I think that's the way to go for most coaches. I've even found sometimes that it converts better to have and even dial more dialed down apply page, which is literally just like a calendar and some next steps and isn't even trying to get too deep into the sale. People have to test, but sometimes I like the minimalist version.

Yeah, for sure. For sure. Testing is the number one thing on any website because every. Every niche is slightly different. Every person's voice is going to come across to them slightly different. So this is a good foundation. But then if you're like, oh, actually doing it this way and it's working great, like, don't change it just because we said to.

Yeah. What are some things that. Let's say a coach has those core pages. What are some things that people tend to overlook that make a difference in addition to just having those core pages?

Yeah, for sure. I think one thing that can be pretty easily overlooked is the power of, like, testimonials or case studies, which I think I'm pretty sure you teach your clients this too. Like, I've seen that some of your clients even have, like, a dedicated case studies area. And every case study has a video and its own, like, page and everything. And I don't know, like, if you're kind of just getting started, you may not necessarily need that robust of a case studies or testimonials, like, build out. But I do think that having testimonials on your site that are really curated to not just put the spotlight on you as the coach and say, like, oh, you know, Serena's coaching changed my life. It was awesome. Or Serena helped me get these breakthroughs and it was cool. Or, you know, like, they'll kind of be a little more vague like that, which is awesome. If that's all you have, like, great. But if you can really help the reader see, like, and encourage the. I actually have a blog post on my site that talks about the, like, the top three questions that I always ask people when I'm asking them to write a testimonial that helps them to. Helps to draw out these details. The first is, like, where did they start? Like, what were their pain points when they came to you? And then what was the work you did together that helped them to solve those pain points? And then where are they now? Like, where. What is the result they got out of your work together? And you don't have to have like a huge long video or like five paragraphs. Of case studies in order to show that you can do it. It can be a sentence per thing really. But if you can paint that picture a little more clearly or help the person writing the testimonial to paint that picture a little more clearly, that testimonial is going to be way more powerful because the reader is going to be able to see themselves in that, in the, in those words and see the possibility for them in those words. So yeah, for sure. I think testimonials is one area that's really overlooked.

That's a good one. And sharing that whole arc of the journey, I agree, is important. When they came, one of the came up for me is like site speed. And that's one that's a little more technical. Like if someone's listening to this and they're like site speed, they might not know what to do. I mean there's basic stuff like the images and making sure they're not oversized and stuff like that. But that's a big one. I was curious for you. When I teach SEO, I usually do it from a content perspective, like just be targeting keywords that people are searching and writing in depth. Content that's going to rank for that. How do you think about SEO when it comes to just the site in general? You know, like if someone's trying to come up for, you know, spiritual business coach or something, are there things that they can do on their homepage, in their title tags that make it more likely for non content to rank on SEO?

Yeah, for sure. I mean there's. There are like technical pieces that Google looks at for your whole site that don't necessarily have to do with specific keywords, but they have to do with how, how well Google will just rank you in general. So things like having alt text on your images, which isn't really actually very hard to do. All website builders these days, Squarespace, WordPress, what have you have like basically a box when you upload any image that says what's the alt text for this image? And there are even tools you can use that will automate creating the alt text. And the alt text is really, it's the text that appears if an image fails to load. And it's called good for accessibility. And that is why Google ranks it or you know, considers it when they're ranking your site. So that's something that is just a small thing to do that will help tick the needle. Um, having those keywords like in your, like in your headlines, but in a way that is natural. Which again, here's the Trick here, like, you know, which. And that is kind of a content piece. But yeah, like that will help. Also. I'm trying to think of some other things that we do that are. That help with keyword ranking, obviously, like page titles and meta descriptions, having those be geared towards the keywords that you want to rank for. I also find it really helpful to use a tool that can show me what are the websites that are ranking currently for those keywords and what are they doing, like who are the competitors and what are they doing? Because obviously whatever they're doing is working well. And how can I implement something similar in a way that will not be, you know, copying but will be, will. Will help me to compete. And that can be a helpful exercise too because there may be some websites that are really, really big and it will be really hard to rank for those. And it might be a consideration of like, oh, well, do I want to try to rank for that keyword or do I want to shoot for something that maybe has smaller volume or. But. But is more specific and will be really, actually quite easy for me to rank for? Um, and then there, of course there's all the like off page SEO that we could talk about like getting featured on other websites that have higher domain authority than you and stuff like that, which, you know, like that will help to increase your own domain authority as well if you are linked elsewhere. And Google will really like that too. So, so that's a whole other, that's a whole other conversation.

Are often intrigued when I talk about SEO because that's been my main source of clients over the years and they're like, ooh, I like the idea of like someone searching for a problem they have finding my article. They read my article, I'm an expert, they apply for a console and then that just happens and I don't have to pay for ads. And it just, it sounds great, but there's actually like a lot to it. It takes a lot of time. There's a lot you have to learn. So usually when I start getting in the weeds and stuff like this, the person's like, oh, actually like social media actually is sounding pretty good now. Or maybe I'll just do a Facebook ad. So the grass is never greener. There's always something there, always you want to do.

Yeah, but for sure, like SEO can be so powerful. It is just, it is a long game though. Like, I mean, you know that too. There's not going to be, you're not going to implement something and then like the next day or even the next week or even the next month, you're going to start like seeing a big uptick. But for sure, over the long term, like, SEO can be really, really powerful.

Agreed. What are your thoughts on. And I have a bias here on WordPress versus Squarespace because I know that you build on WordPress. My site is on Squarespace and. Yeah, just pros and cons, why you like WordPress as a developer and what you. I was going to say what you typically recommend to folks. I assume it's WordPress, but tell me more about that decision in your mind.

Yeah, that's a good question. So I love WordPress because. Well, because we can do anything with it. We can design anything that we want. We can like functionally develop anything that we want if we want, like payment to work a certain way or if we want, you know, if we want to build out a specific type of funnel that is really complex and does certain things like we can do whatever we want. And I love that. I also, but, but I also get that, like, I, I think Squarespace and wix and other platforms like that can be really great if you are diying without any guidance. I would actually recommend something like Squarespace over WordPress because it's, it's just a little more intuitive, it's easier to build with. We do use a drag and drop builder on our WordPress sites that's similar to Squarespace just because I like to empower my clients to, you know, be able to log in and revise their own copy or swap out an image or whatever. So we don't like hard code anything really ever. But yeah, that said, Squarespace is kind of like easier if you're diying. I do have like a website kit that's more of a lower ticket offer that is for the DIYer. And in that case, I show them how to use WordPress because that allows me to build out like the website kit templates that then they can just import and edit. And so like, in that sense, I recommend WordPress if you have guidance like that with how to use it, but if you don't. Yeah, I actually kind of in the pool with you there. I actually think Squarespace and WIX can be better.

That makes sense. Like WordPress is more customization if you're outsourcing it or if you have your website kit and you actually have templates and it's just fill in the blanks essentially. The reason I didn't do WordPress when I started is just like I just got overwhelmed. So I think if people are noticing that they're creatively avoiding actually what they need to do in their business because of the complexity of WordPress just to do something simpler. Sure.

Okay.

Anything else we should talk about before we dive into the website audits?

I don't think so. I think it'll be fun.

All right, let's get going. So I sent in some of my clients that we're going to review and we're just going to go what we like, what we think can be improved, and use it as an example.

Yep, for sure. So I'll tell you my things. I'm going to share my screen here in just a second, but feel free to hop in at any time. Greg, with. With your inputs. Sounds good. Let's see. Here we go. All right. Can you see my screen?

Yes.

Awesome. Okay, so here we've got Claire. I'm really curious to hear from you, Greg. Claire mentioned that her two biggest questions were how do I update the content in an efficient way for one and two, like, how do I manage this website as I'm like, changing my niche? Cause she mentioned that the copy is actually outdated and she's revising her niche, but she didn't say what the new niche was. So I'm curious if you know.

Yeah. So I'm working with Claire now and I think that her overall messaging is likely gonna change. We haven't talked about the website in a little bit, but I know that she's focused on people who are in sustainability and want to, you know, elevate into a higher leadership role and also people who are getting into sustainability and so.

Okay, gotcha. As I was reading through her website, now it seems like it's a little bit more focused on, like, advertising herself as a sustainability consultant or at least some of the areas that I saw were that way. But so cool. We can talk about that for sure. The first thing that I noticed is that, like, the site in general is very, like, the design of it is simple and clean and I didn't see, like any big sort of layout issues. But I did see that on the Work With Me page, the, like, her calendly links throughout are either broken or there aren't any times available. Like, so on the Work With Me page, it's just the wrong event that's embedded. If you click Book an impact Audit, it scrolls you down to here and then it just keeps kind of scrolling you down to the next section. But, you know, you can't really do anything. Um, if you click. Yeah, for sure. If you click. Let's talk it takes you to scheduling page which does have a working page, a working calendly, but there aren't any like open times on it. So I figured this is probably just because she's kind of in flux right now and it's not really a. The website isn't a high priority thing. But for sure if I come to a site and I'm interested in hiring someone and their calendly stuff like kind of throughout isn't working, like here and there there's going to be a bug and like I can excuse that as a user but if throughout it's not working, it's kind of like oh, is there. But is their business still running? Did they shut it down? You know, more likely to click away. So that's the first, the biggest, for sure, the biggest easy thing I would say to fix and also like this is just a reminder for all of us really is to like at least once a quarter or so like explore your website. Just click around and see what's happening and do all the scheduling links work and does they often work and all of that because stuff just breaks over time sometimes without you like noticing it or you change the URL on your calendly and forget about it and forget to update it on your website and then it breaks there. And so it's just good to keep an eye on it every couple of months just to make sure that everything is still working. See, I really liked the what clients say section and how it like again I think this is like because you teach about case studies maybe is why she set it up this way. And you know, so if they can go to this page and they can read a little snippet or they can click in on any of these buttons and they can watch a video and hear a little, you know, read a little bit more about that person and I really think that that is, is effective in really illustrating the work that, that she can do as a coach. The one thing that I do think is missing from this for sure is like let's sprinkle in some call to actions on this, on these subpages like below the video let's have a, you know, apply now or schedule now. Um, and then again at the bottom of the page if they scroll all the way here, let's give them something to do.

Agree.

But I like, I like that area. Any thoughts on any other thoughts on that?

Agree with everything you said. I like that this is getting into new territory. I like the simple navigation on the top that we stuck to like five things I really like that the let's Talk is highlighted top right as a different color button. That's where we want to get people to.

Yep, yep, 100%. I love using buttons in the top right. It's kind of a story brand thing that they suggest and I just, I, I mean it's very signature in my. If you go look at my portfolio, almost every site I build has that. And I just think it's such great user experience because either let's talk or start here or you know, whatever verbiage you want to use and either link them to your, your email list or link them to your scheduling page, whichever one you want to like push the most because I just think it's good user experience. And yeah, having like no more than five menu items I think is really great. Now there's no homepage. I like homepage option on this menu which I've had this conversation with so many people. I'm curious what you think Greg, like homepage or no homepage in the menu?

I'm assuming when you click on the Claire Osborne logo it goes to the homepage.

It does. And that is, that is where the conversation is, is like if I'm okay with either.

I don't feel strongly that they. Yet you need to have a separate link to home.

Yeah, I usually keep it unless we have more menu items than like four or five. And then I'll take it off as like an optional thing because most people. Actually it's about, according to my informal poll, it's about 50% of people know that clicking the logo takes you home.

So what's, what's the research tab?

Yeah.

So it's a call to action. So I, if it were me, how I would organize the menu is if we want to have home, we could have that. Then I probably just have about. Then I would have maybe like either work with me or let's talk. But I would have that be one page. Then I would have this page as the button. If this was the main call to action of the site and it was working and you were building your list where you could then invite people to book. So I probably have it and I wouldn't have it say the research.

No, I wouldn't.

But it's unusual. So I'd do like free guide or free report or something.

Yeah, me too. Like I like the idea of report if you want to really show the. That it's like research based. But yeah, when I, when I clicked on the research, I thought it was going to take me to like Some scholarly articles that she had written or something.

Or something. Yeah.

Or a blog. Yeah. Yeah. When it comes to naming things like just being crystal clear and not, not being creative actually with navigation is, is more helpful. So I actually, yeah, I like that she has an opt in but I would, I would also just feature it more prominently. Like I would call to action to that more on the homepage, which she does here. But again, like, it wasn't super engaging to me because I, I didn't really know what the research was, so. Yeah, well, and then her last question was, you know, like, how do I manage a website and update the content as my offer is evolving? Like, I don't want to go through the process of doing a complete rewrite every six months as I figure out my messaging. And maybe that's something that you and she could work on, but sort of my thought was like, well, if you're really testing messaging and trying to figure out what works, like in the short term, something that you could consider doing would be to temporarily streamline it down to like one or two pages. Um, I don't love that just for like SEO impact and stuff, that, that'll be kind of tricky. But like, if you, if it's just temporary as you are refining your messaging, having to only like refine one or two pages of copy is a lot easier than trying to refine a whole bunch of copy, like multiple pages. So that's a suggestion. But I'm curious, do you have any.

Other thoughts on that idea? Yeah, I think if it was a more dramatic pivot that she was making, like, let's say she was a coach, leadership coach for people in sustainability. And then she was like, I want to be like a spiritual coach for people who, you know, like, want to awaken or something. It's so different. Then I'd be like, maybe go to a one page landing page with a lead magnet and test some copy and test a lead magnet for a less drastic difference. I'd probably work with what she's got.

Yeah. Which it sounds like based on what you said, she's keeping a similar. It's just slightly different messaging. So yeah, just, just forcing, giving yourself a deadline and just forcing yourself to just get out the copy in a certain amount of time and just put it up and not, not, you know, spend 20 hours on it. Like, I feel like that's the thing I coach on the most when, when clients are re redoing their website is the copy. Because it can just be tough.

So one, one thing before we move on that I want to give props for is I land on this homepage, I know what's happening, coaching sustainability leaders to be a force for change. Like, you know, she might be refining her messaging and her niche, but it's like, okay, I understand what this site is about and that's not always the case.

Yep, 100%. And I like that she has call outs just in terms of, like, design. It is very clean. There's, there's an even amount of padding around all of the elements. Nothing's kind of like, like, if this were way larger and this were the same size as it is now, it would feel off balance. I like that she's got call outs like this that highlight certain sentences because it just makes it more scannable, stuff like that. So I do think that this is really hard to read. So in terms of design, whenever you're using an overlay, just make sure that it's strong enough so that the text is readable. Otherwise people just aren't going to read it, unfortunately. So how do you feel about this.

Brochure style homepage that sort of teases the other sections versus just doing something like, hey, I'm just going to have a great headline. I'm going to have the lead magnet call to action, and I'm just going to focus on that one call to action for the page and then they can go to the navigation. How do you think about that?

I think it works a little bit better for like a membership portal than it does for, like a marketing website. What I prefer to do is something that's a little bit of a mix. So, like, for example, let's see, this might be actually how we do it on Grace's site. So this is Grace. She's a current or past client of yours, Greg. And what we did was on the homepage, if I remember right, all of the calls to action are to download. Actually, this one does go to her Work with Me page, so maybe I'll have to look elsewhere to show you an example of this. So I think we actually did do more of her brochure style on hers. Let me pull up another sample from a client. So this is Krista St. Germain. She does coaching for widowed moms, which again, like Claire, it's just super clear right when you come to the page.

This is one of the best niches for life coaching that I've ever.

Yeah, she's. And I just love supporting her because her work is making such a difference. Anyway, so this one goes to her Work With Me page and testimonials man. I'm kind of failing as I'm looking at for examples, but I'll just, I'll pretend that this is what this site does. So typically what I like to do is I like to call to action to the. To the free resource, the opt in the lead magnet on the homepage. Except that I'll also, I like to include. If they have a blog or a podcast, I like to include like the three most recent because I think that that's just a really good credibility builder. Like, if it's a secondary call to action, like we have a primary call to action that we really would prefer someone take. And then if they aren't ready to take that, we have a secondary. That's like an option for them in the blog or podcast services.

Go to my site. Go to gregfraxton.com not to say this is the paragon of all websites, but I think I do what you're saying. Okay, so you got the quiz call to action logos. And then these are not my most recent blog posts. These are all blog posts that have the highest conversion rate for the lead magnet. So I know that when people read this, they end up on my list. So it's sort of like, do they download the lead magnet or do they need content to a content upgrade to a lead magnet? So that's how I've done it.

Yeah. Yeah, I like that a lot. Yep. And at the end of, I'll just click on one of yours, like built. I love that as you. As they read sort of built into it is that you call them to action for whatever it is that you want them to opt in for. Like, that just really helps make it more effective. And especially, I assume you probably do this.

Yeah.

Like at the end, having, again, like, if they've scrolled all the way down there, let's just get them to opt in. So. Yeah. Okay, cool. Anything else about this one, Greg, before we move on?

No, I think that's great.

Okay, cool. So our next is Tom Killen. His two biggest questions were how can I best set up my homepage to engage my target client? Which might just be a continuation of this conversation that we've been having. And then how can I better relate to target clients with my about page? He specifically was wondering, and he mentioned that target clients are which, you know, correct me if this is wrong, but leaders within large organizations who are either preparing for or taking on roles that are a stretch.

Yes.

So my thought about the site, about the homepage, like calls to action and how to Engage it more. I think it really is from, in terms of like a call to action stance, what we were saying, like, he calls the action to take the quiz here, and then down here he calls to action to work with him. Which in terms of having primary and secondary calls to action on a one homepage, maybe that works because I don't know. Oh, no, he does have articles. Yeah. So I would almost keep the call to action to be the quiz and then have like a preview of the few latest articles here. Or maybe just the top, like the top articles that get the most engagement or the most conversion. I think the one exception to that would be I have some clients whose audiences are very direct and they really just. They want. They like, when they come to the site, they're like, I'm not here to mess around. I don't want to download something. I literally just want to talk to you. And so I don't know his audience well enough to know if that's the case. But that would be one situation where it would be like, well, if that is the case, maybe we set something up. So it's more like this site where we've got like a primary schedule and a secondary, like, download the thing. And we style them this way because this is the primary that people are more looking for that we more want them to take, and then secondary is to opt in. So that's something to consider. If your audience is like, just show me where to schedule.

How would you know? Would you be hearing things from them that they, Hey, I can't even even find where to book a call. And it was annoying.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah. So that, that's like my main thoughts also in terms of design, I think that there's a lot that we could do to. Or a lot that could be improved for Tom, especially considering the fact that his audience is, you know, executives. And we really want to build trust with them, like from the get go. So in terms of design, like, I would make these icons smaller and I would. While I'm writing, I wrote down what my notes were. I make the icon smaller. I'd make the text a little bit bigger here, just so it's easier to scan. I would. For these testimonials, this is. These are quite hard to scan. So something that a lot of people don't know is that when text on a webpage is longer than about, I don't know, 75 characters or so on one line, our brain just kind of shuts down and it doesn't tend to read it. So I would actually, if you can, I would get photos of these people, which he's got. He's got so much information about them. Actually, this one is confidential, so that might not work for that one. But for the testimonials on your homepage, if you can get photos and then a lot of them are confidential. I forgot about that as I was scanning this.

Yeah. But maybe it might even just be worth having the two testimonials with pictures that you can identify and saving the confidential ones because it's so much to scan anyway. Like you're saying people actually read them. If you have a photo, two testimonials, maybe bolding a sentence or two in it.

Exactly. That's what I was going to suggest is like maybe save the confidential client ones for. In your email list or something if you want to quote someone. And then here on the webpage, we could have, you know, text over here, photo over here, and then the text wouldn't be quite so long and you could bold, bold the really results focused words so that it's more scannable. Because right now this looks very simple. And sometimes if it looks really simple and there are too many words on one line, people will just scan, you know, they just won't read it and they'll be. They won't think it's that important. When really this is like one of the most impactful sections on the homepage.

There's no way people are reading this section currently.

Yeah. Let's see. I think that too. I noticed on his Work With Me page, I think he could expand more on, like what he does and how he helps. Because right now it's just kind of this one section and then some testimonials, which, I mean, maybe that's intentional. Maybe there's. Maybe he's found that this converts better.

I think he's going off of my strategy, which is very minimalist for the Apply page.

Yeah. Which, you know, if. If you find that that does. That. That does work well, then I think that's great. I guess I just was kind of like, maybe I'm just craving more visual here. Like, to me as a user, this feels really like, not a lot, but. And then he wondered about his about page too, and how he can make it more like connect more with.

Bigger font. How do you font the margins? I feel like I want it to be more readable.

Yes, for sure. There's definitely inconsistency of body font size throughout. And I think that this is a really nice size that is easy for me to read and Making all of the body font size that. All of the body font. That size will really help. I also just think having a little more visual interest on this page is going to make it more likely that someone will read it. Like, maybe, you know, this is a blue background section and you have a different photo over here or some kind of graphic or even just a stock photo. And then this is another white background section with. With some more imagery or just kind of breaking up the text in a way that feels like stylized styling the text in a way that feels more scannable. Um, I'll pull up a good example of this. We actually just launched the site this week, and I love it because it's a good example. It's a good example of how styling text can just make it so much more easy to read, like, even in the headlines, how it's emphasized, how the. The important words are emphasized with a different font, and it's just a lot more readable. So if you can think about styling in even just using bold and italics, like, you don't have to get fancy with different fonts. If you. If you're diying especially, it can be a little tricky. But, like, just think about styling it a little more. It just makes it more scannable. For sure. Yeah.

I'd love to see, like, if he has pictures of him, like, speaking or, you know, anything. Obviously that's gonna build social proof. You could kind of pop some of those in there.

Yep. For sure. I totally agree. I think those were the main things on. On Tom's site that I had written down.

I like the simplicity of the site. Mm.

Well, it's funny because it's actually the. It's built on WordPress, which I know this just from looking at it. Like, I. I didn't. I didn't even look up the tech aspects, but, like, it's built on WordPress, and it's like the default WordPress theme, and it's actually the best use of that default theme, I think I've. You. I've seen, like, it. It is clean, it is simple, it is straightforward. Um, yeah, I just think that the layout could, in some places, could use improvement or a little more visual interest. So. Yeah. Cool. Any other thoughts on this one before we move on? Awesome. Okay, so the last that we've got is Pam, which is so funny because I think Pam's currently working with you. Right. As a client. And she actually hired me too, so we're going to work together in the new year. And so when she was like, oh, will you do an audit, like, sure, we can do an audit on your current site and maybe help her improve some things between now and then. So I love Pam's site in terms of, like, I love its images. I love that they're all like, she's a coach for moms that, you know, they want to stop yelling at their kids. They want to feel like they're doing a better job. And I love that her photos are all like, geared towards that. Like, she's. She's got photos of her with her kids just like all over the place. Yeah, it's just so cute. So I love that. I love the visual interest there and that it's so topically related. I know just from talking with her that like, she really wants to update these photos because her kids are all. These photos are all quite old. Like, her kids are like teenagers now. And that is kind of, you know, as she has. As her kids have grown. I know that like, kind of her. Her audiences, like the people that she coaches, their kids get older too. So like, she's kind of coaching a little bit more now. Like moms with like slightly older kids. Though I'm sure she still will work moms with younger kids. But like, so updating those photos is. Is high on our priority list for sure. And then just in general, like, the. The layout of the design is really. Which is why we're going to work together because her copy is so on point. Like, I read this and I'm like, yeah, I can relate with all these things. I'm a mom, I've got three little kids. Like, I can totally relate, but the design itself just doesn't. It's just not giving the same credibility to the copy that the copy shows authority of. And that's what I'm most excited to work with her on. I love that it's very. And just stopped me. I feel like I'm kind of like, I'm on a tangent here. I love the colors that they are so like this blue and this purple are very vibrant. That feels like lots of. There's lots of energy there. It feels like hopeful and happy and like, yeah, sometimes we talk about heavy stuff as parents, but also like, this is a good place to hang out. And so I like that. And we are definitely going to keep some of that in her palette. One thing we are going to change is her logo because it's just. It's time to up level it and so that make it more modern, make it more readable. Right now on the top. I don't know if it does this for you? I don't think it did for Pam when it loaded, but for me, like the logo doesn't load at the top.

Pam sees a logo.

I thought that she did when I last talked to her about it.

I think I've shared this with Pam, but yeah, that's the thing that drives me the most crazy on the site is it's very disconcerting when there's nothing above the navigation. There's that blank space.

Yep, yep, exactly. So that's something that we're obviously, you know, when we build, rebuild our site, it'll have a working logo and it'll just be more modern and updated. Like I love the treatment of. This is her book page and I love this cover. Like it's so clean. The heart is still there like that. That, you know, the heart that's part of her logo is still here, but it's just more modern, it's more up leveled. And I'm sure we'll take inspiration from this when we redo her logo. But yeah, I really like, I really like that treatment. So let's see, what else did I write down? Oh, I noticed on her homepage she's got two forms on it, like one here and then another one here. And that's like generally not my favorite thing to do. Just because I think that forms on page are kind of ugly and I'd rather just have one if we're gonna. If we need to have it. I do agree that having the cta, those call to actions in two places is helpful, but let's either change this one to be a button and if you click it, it scrolls you back up to the form that's up here. Or even better, let's do something like, I think that we do this on the site. Let's do something like if they click the button, it triggers a pop up where they can put in their name and their email. I like that so much more because it's just, it keeps the page looking really clean. But again, like there's stuff that here that you just got to test to see. Like some people prefer the on page opt in instead of having the pop up because they find that it converts a little bit better. But those are my thoughts as a designer for sure.

How do you feel about having a search within the site that she has in the top right? Is that. Do people use that?

They totally do. Yeah.

Yeah, they do.

Especially I, I think it's not really important if you don't have a blog or a podcast. If you do Have a blog or a podcast, then I would strongly that you. That you populate actually are, you know, keeping up with. Then I for sure would have it at least somewhere it doesn't have to be this prominent. Like, it can be in the footer, you know, as like a little search bar or a search icon. But for sure, having that is important. I've gotten complaints on my site when I didn't have one, and so I've started building it in by default onto our websites that have, like, an archive of blogger podcast episodes. For that reason. It's just, again, it's good user experience. It helps them to explore our site. I've had people, I remember someone posted on, like a. In a group that I'm in, and they were like, I just fell down the best rabbit hole. And it was Jenny's blog. And I just was searching, like, you know, I spent several hours today just like, reading all of her posts and like, she, you know, read my mind of all the different things that I was, you know, that I was struggling with. And so when you read comments like that, it's like, okay, yeah, I think that a search box, people do use them. Long answer, for sure.

Okay, that's good to know. I had actually taken mine off. I would always assumed, like, if I were going to search someone's stuff and I wanted their perspective on, I would be like, WordPress for Squarespace, Jenny Leach. Like, I would just be searching that in Google. But yeah, that's a good. That's a good tip. One of the things I want to give Pam props for, and it's related to that, you like the photos and the colors. You really get a vibe from the site, and it's Pam's vibe. So the. The branding, even if the design isn't where we want it to be, I think the branding is, like, really in a good place and on the right track because it represents her.

Yeah, for sure it is. I'm just so excited to, like, just emphasize that even more. Okay, let's see, what else did I write? Yeah.

Oh, I have one more thing.

Oh, go ahead.

So Pam's a licensed clinical social worker, and she worked in a school before coaching. And I don't see that just as we're perusing quickly. I know she has it somewhere in different parts of her assets, but I almost want that, like, upfront and center just because I feel like being able to set yourself apart from other coaches who don't have that sort of licensure or the credibility. I do think that's a Powerful thing. And she should use it.

Yeah, 100%. Like either on your about and work with me as kind of like part of the subtext or if you really want to get like, really, you know, really hit at home, you'll see some people who will have like, you know, they'll have a main headline like this, but then they'll be underneath. They'll say something like, you know, with Pam Howard, comma, whatever, the act like the, the, the. What's the word I'm looking for? Like MD or whatever it is, you know, whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they'll put that. And that just helps to really boost that one thing that, that Pam does too. Which we'll see if I can download this and show it to you. I don't think I can easily. But going back to the thank you page conversation that we had earlier, like, she actually does have quite a nice thank you page that says, you know, after you opt in, it just actually let me just opt in right now, see if it'll pull it up. It says like, thanks, you're all signed up. But wait.

Yeah, here's your. This is what my strategy is. I don't know why it's jiggling so often.

I have no idea why it's jiggling. Oh my gosh, that's really bizarre.

I thought it was going to stop after three shakes and I was like, that actually is a good strategy. But no, not a.

Well, I'm going to go back so it doesn't make anybody dizzy. But yeah, basically it's like, but wait, before you dive into the three steps that I'm sending you, book your free mini session and then it has a request to console link under.

That's what I teach. And it does work.

Yeah, I like that. So there's definitely technical, like, SEO stuff. Like most of her pages are missing a, like a page title and a meta description and stuff. So those are all things that, that you can look at on your own site if you're watching this to see, you know, are those things I'm doing if I really want to boost my SEO strategy? Like, those would definitely be places to improve to put a page title that has relevant keywords and a meta description for every page. And. But you know, for Pam, that's something that we, we do by default. So we'll do that as part of her project. But yeah, yeah, those were my main thoughts on Pam's site.

Love it.

Cool. Awesome. Well, where do you want to take it from here, Greg? Those were our audits, but I know we talked a little bit about.

Let's go to Grace again briefly because I think this is to see a full site that you've worked on and what. Obviously we don't have the before version of it in front of us but just being able to see your thinking, what is the main call to action for the homepage? Where does that go?

Yeah, so this main call to action, they click it. It triggers a pop up where the user can put in their name and email and then if they click the, you know, they click Grab your free. It takes them to her thank you page which has like we talked about it has that like hey, check your email and here is my like free consult and they. Or apply actually might be her call to action there. So that is the main call to action for the homepage. That's also what start here does. It sends them to. Actually sends them to the opt in page where they can opt in in the same way.

But this is different though. This is a master class.

You're right, it is different. This one is the ebook and then this one is the masterclass. I think this was the ebook when we launched it. But she's. Yeah, opened up a master class and now they swapped out the link.

Got it. So her photos are so good.

They are really good.

I feel like she comes off as casual and professional at the same time. Like I love that she's barefoot in the photo but like she looks very together.

Mm. Yep. And like kind of throughout that sort of her. Her vibe. And this is. Oh, are we back? I feel like I bugged out for a second look. This is something to keep in mind. I get asked so many questions about website photos. It's something that people really struggle with. My biggest tip for your photographer is just to make sure that for every photo that they take kind of like up close of your figure, that's more headshot style. Get them to take one that's way pulled back, that has lots of image, like lots of room around view for copy on top of the photo.

Makes sense.

Grace. We actually didn't have a ton that were like that but we got away with it because she was on a plain background. So we were actually able to use Photoshop to like extend the photo. And so it worked out. But that's why like all of these, that's why most of these photos have like different background colors. So it's either brown or white or black because that was the solid background that we had to work with and it worked great with her branding. But yeah, I Think that's. That's kind of a photo tip for you. Something else that we did, and again, this is more in terms of, like, design is we. We didn't want to just use photos of Grace everywhere, but we still wanted to have visual interest. And we also didn't want to use, like, stock photos everywhere. We wanted it to feel a little more creative than that. And so she actually, I'll totally credit Grace with the idea. She saw kind of line graphics like this on a couple of other sites and she was like, oh, that could work really well. And so we tied that in and I think it just added the touch of, like, still really clean and minimal, but also like creative that. That we were looking for.

So those are just royalty images. You're, like going to a database and find the line graphics used or.

Yeah, yep. Creative Market is one that's really good. I think the only manipulation that we really had to do was we swapped out, like, what was in this thought bubble and we changed the colors and stuff. But yeah, Creative Market has a whole bunch of really good ones you can purchase. But again, like, we tried to use a mixture of, like, men and women because she works with both men and women. Um, yeah. So that's another thing I like here. What other thoughts did you want to touch on on this, Greg?

I am curious for your thoughts on social media badges, because I know sometimes people will really showcase those, and then now people aren't on your site anymore, they're on the platform, which is going to control their attention for the rest of the session.

Yeah.

On the other hand, like, I know for Grace, she does have a big Instagram following it as a big part of her business. I assume she has it in the footer.

Yep. Yep. And by that you mean, like, linking out to your social media platforms.

Yeah. So that's what. That's what I would like to do. You know, that's what I like to do. But I know. I feel like I just see a lot of people really showcasing those links out above the fold in their main navigation. And I'm always feeling like unless you know what you're doing and that's your strategy is you actually would prefer them to be on your LinkedIn or whatever than your website. I feel like that's a lost opportunity just because the template was formatted that way.

Yeah, for sure. I agree. I prefer to put them in the footer because, like, as a user, if I'm visiting someone's site and they're active on a social media channel that I use And I can't find that link. I'm going to get frustrated.

Sure.

And so I like having them. But yeah, I don't usually. We don't usually put them in the main navigation unless the client specifically requests it. Something else that we'll do too, which this kind of. I mean it doesn't put it in the nav, but it does put it more primary is we might do it something like, like for this client, she is all over her social media, all over her Instagram, like and that's a huge, huge nurture point for her. So what we did was we created like this dedicated Instagram section on her homepage just to make it easy for people to find. That's cool. We've actually.

It's almost its own little call to action.

It is, yeah. We, we originally put actually like a feed preview of her Instagram here. So it showed like the six or four or six most recent posts and it would like dynamically update. But we've moved away from doing that now just because like for whatever reason, Instagram breaks that integration a lot. They do it with WordPress. I would assume it probably works that way with most platforms where you just have to like re authenticate it like once a month and it's like nobody's got time for that. So anyway, we kind of moved away from doing that. But yeah, those are my thoughts on that. Social media linking.

What are your. The. I think this is my final question is just the general thought on lead magnets is that if you just invite people to join a newsletter, they won't, you know, they'll be less likely to join it than if they get, you know, a lead magnet in return. An ebook, a video, cheat sheet, a quiz. And there are some prominent people who know what they're doing with email marketing who make their call to action a newsletter. It's usually like a branded newsletter of some type where they're able to make it feel more concrete and substantial. But have your thoughts changed at all around having a primary call to action be a lead magnet versus just a newsletter up front.

Yeah, for most people, I think they don't have the credibility to make their newsletter appealing like it is for people that are really big brands. Like trying to think of an example.

Like Backlink, o' Brien Dean is who comes to mind.

Yeah, yeah. Like if you have that kind of credibility and you literally have testimonials for your newsletter that you can put on that opt in page, like, and oodles of them, like, okay, cool, do a newsletter opt in but most of us that's not the case. And so having a PDF or a video or some kind of training that you're giving them to opt in is just going to have a higher conversion rate. But yeah, I've thought about doing that about creating like a newsletter. Only opt in because I like my newsletter is kind of that way where I do have some testimonials that I could include, but I don't know, I don't know. But again, it's like I don't know that that would actually work as well as like my blueprint or whatever that people are opting in for. So yeah, in general the answer is.

The test I would assume with it is.

But yeah, for sure. Having like a lot of social proof in the form of testimonials for your newsletter is going to help a lot if you want to test it.

Awesome. Cool. Well, let's, let's wrap and let's just try to come up with one. One small thing that someone could do that would make a big difference. Maybe we each choose one because I think we covered a bunch today.

Yeah, we told.

Trying to make it really actionable for people if they, if they had. Let's say I got, I've got 20 to 30 minutes this week to do something on my website, assuming I have an existing website that would make a difference. What would you, what would you choose? Highest leverage action.

Yeah, I would, I would. If I looked at my website, I would go back to our testimonials conversation and I would evaluate my website and if I, if I saw myself and what we said of just like, oh, I mean my testimonials are like, this coach is great, but they're not necessarily spelling the story of the before and after of you know, what that client got. Then I would, I would take those three questions that we talked about which like again I have a blog post that talks about that. It's like how to write client testimonials with confidence or something like that and take those three questions and I would email some of my past clients that are totally that case study and I would replace the testimonials and I would bowl like the results based stuff. That would be, that would probably be about 30 minutes of work.

Yeah, I love that. I mean that's the highest form of marketing. It's just what for a coach, what your clients are saying they've been able to do. I like that one. I would say if you have a lead magnet, that's that people are opting in for, but you're not utilizing the thank you page. I would go to, for example, on my site. You can see an example of this. The. But wait, before you dive in, let's book a call to help you implement what you learn. And sending them into a consult for people who are getting opt ins. That will make a big difference. I would say if you're not getting opt ins or if you don't have a lead magnet on the site. Ooh, I don't know if this is 15 or 20 minutes.

Yeah, that's why I didn't go there. I was like, that's gonna be a lot longer than 30 minutes.

Showcasing what you do the website, if you have one, I guess are those two actions on mine.

Love it.

Send an email to Jenny. Take even less than five minutes. Send her a paypal. Just boom. Here you go. All right, Jenny, thank you so much for your time. Anything else that you want to share with folks in terms of where they can find you if they're interested in learning more?

Yeah, yeah. So you can find me on my website, jennylaken.com and I'm sure you'll probably link it somewhere around. I do custom website design for coaches that are ready to, you know, they're like, Pam, they're ready. They've got. They've got their niche dialed. They know what they're doing and they're just really ready to uplevel. If you're a new coach and you're like, oh, I love your work and I just can't afford to pay you and I know that I don't before even asking, I know I can't or whatever. And you're just getting started and you're refining your niche. Then I do have a lower ticket offer as well called website kit for coaches that it's basically a DIY website course that's really short but powerful. It helps you to create a website that has an opt in a scheduling link and it tells people what you do and you can get it done in a weekend.

Love it. Thanks, Jenny. We'll talk soon.

Bye.