How To Set Boundaries Without Feeling Guilty - Interview with Suzanne Culberg

Hello, everyone. I have Suzanne Kohlberg here, and Suzanne is an international mindset coach. She's a speaker, she's an author, and she really specializes in helping people set and maintain boundaries without feeling so guilty about it. And I think we all could improve that skill. So she has a signature program called why Wait? She's helped hundreds of women break the cycle of putting themselves last and build the confidence to set those boundaries. You can learn more about her@suzannecolberg.com Suzanne, thank you for being here. And before we dive into boundaries, I know you're a Harry Potter fan, so my biggest question to ask first is, what house do you think you would be in Harry Potter?

Well, I went to Pottermore or whatever it is, and I did the quiz and I got Ravenclaw, which I was like, oh, man, I wanted to be a Gryffindor. So, like, my heart says Gryffindor, but apparently the sorting would be Ravenclaw.

I don't think I've ever done the official thing, but I'm feeling pretty good about Gryffindor. I mean, I think most people would want to be Gryffindor. And when I hear someone say, oh, yeah, like, I'm totally a Slytherin, I was like, why would you not want to be a Gryffindor? The whole book is based around Gryffindor basically being the best house.

What's funny, my husband is like, I'd be a Slytherin hands down. And he just owns it. So that makes me laugh.

I like. I like. If you can own it, I guess that's a good thing. Yeah. What did. What did Harry Potter, like, do for you when you were growing up? Or, like, what resonated with you about Harry Potter?

Harry Potter was funny. It was the first DVD that I bought. And I remember now I have my own kids, and Harry Potter's so great with generationally. And I'm explaining DVD to them, and they're looking at me like, what do you mean? DVDs were cool. Like, we stream everything now. And I'm like, oh, man, imagine if they knew about vhs. But anyway, it was funny because the topic of Harry Potter, when people were talking about it, it didn't interest me whatsoever. I was like, that sounds dumb, but my sister had just bought a DVD player and that's the only DVD that she had, so. So I was like, oh, okay, I'll give it a go. And then that was it. I just totally loved it. I loved the. The community and the railing behind, you know, a common cause. And the magic.

Yeah, I mean, you're hooked once you start. I have a friend who, he's like, oh yeah, I read like six out of the seven books. There was one in the middle I missed. I was like, how, how would you, how would that ever happen? I was like, my respect for you just diminished so much. But yeah, I know we were. I saw another interview where you were talking about Harry Potter. So I was like, we got to cover that quickly. But I, I listen to the books on tape. So talk about old technology. Like I had the cassettes Jim Dale playing in my head non stop. I just loop it while I clean my room or whatever when I was growing up.

So it's Stephen Fry now if you get it on audible because both my kids listen to it and like he's just got the most sleep voice. Like I'm like, love him but can't listen to him read many hours of Harry Potter. I'm like feeling like you need to.

Go have a nap maybe before bed. Okay, well, I wanted to start with why are boundaries important? Like this is something you've obviously committed your work life to and why are boundaries important and why are they so hard for people to get right?

Okay, I'm going to give this example a go because I know that we're on video. So this is my water bottle. If I want to enjoy the water, it needs to be contained in some way. Otherwise it's just going to be a puddle on the floor, which I can't drink and it's not mobile and I can't take it with me. And when I think about boundaries, like a lot of people fear, they're like, it's a shield or it's a protection or it's a safety, but it just is a delineation between where you are, what's yours and what's not. And it's for both parties. If someone is beginning to set a boundary with you and, and that can start inciting fear, like they don't care or they don't. This, it's the opposite. It's because they want to continue that relationship, friendship, business, whatever it is. That a boundary is important because then you know in this case what is allowed and what isn't allowed and it can be co created together and then you get to decide is this a person or a coach or a business that you want to interact with or not? And I think you know, when you. Brene Brown is like the boundaries queen. Unofficially, she talks about shame and guilt, but she says clear is kind and it's like, a lot of us in our effort to be. We want to be generous or we want to be nice. I hesitate to use that word now, but we think, oh, if I set boundaries, then I'm not being nice or kind. And it's like, but you are being so clear. And then people know. And often a lot of the boundary violations occur because people don't know what's acceptable and what's not acceptable. If you don't say to somebody, I check my email. Like, you know people who send you an autoresponder. Thank you so much for your message. I check my messages once a week or whatever. Then, you know, I don't expect to hear back from Greg. He only messages on Mondays. And then you go about your merry way. Whereas when there isn't something like that, then you think, did they get it? Did they not get it? Like, for me, I fill in a lot of forms, like somebody asked me to yesterday, and afterward I sent them a message. I said, look, when I hit submit, nothing happened. Like, my screen looked exactly the same. So can you please just check that you received it? Because I could assume that they got the form and they could be waiting for me to fill in the form. And there is no communication here. So, like, a little thing that says, thanks for your submission, I'll get back to you. It's clear and it's kind. It's not rude or abrupt.

I like that analogy of the water bottle. But it's interesting. I was listening to you speak to someone else about the autoresponder thing, and I remember you saying you personally don't love that way of setting the boundaries.

Right.

Because it bounces right back. I think I feel similarly, like every time I send the person the message, I'm seeing the same autoresponder. So I feel like that's a very clear way to set a boundary on email. Do you have a way that you personally set boundaries that doesn't involve an autoresponder?

Yeah, I don't personally use an autoresponder all that often because I actually find it irritating. Like, I have an email list, as I know you do, and sometimes people's autoresponders come back to me from my thing, and I'm like, that really irks me. There must be a way to overcome that. But in. In any of your communication. So, like, if you go to my Instagram, it's not my most used social media platform, but in my welcome, like, you know, this is my page thing, I state really clearly, I do not respond to DMs like, it's right there. And I love it when someone comments on that post that I just sent you a dm. And I'm thinking if you didn't take a minute to read the very post that you've just commented on, like, I think there's something about, you know, the courtesy and for me it's a great filter. Is somebody genuinely reaching out to me or are they just sending me a copy paste that they send 5 million other people? Like yesterday, my husband Jeremy was so excited. He's like, someone's approached me about an opportunity and my little radar in the back of my head was like, what's this going to be? And anyway, he has a couple of messages back and forth and he's like, they told me for the small price of 10,000 US, I could be on their thing. He's like, what's this? And I was like, so sometimes you know the genuine nature of a message, but you know where, where you have it. So like on my socials, on my website, very clearly, you know how you can contact me on my Facebook page, there's no message, I removed that. If you click contact, it takes you to my contact page from my website. And sometimes if people just send me one, which I'm guessing is going to be like just a copy paste, I'll just hit a respond saying message me via my contact page. Most people don't because they're just copying and pasting. So by putting those extra steps into place, it filters out a lot of that stuff that I don't have to deal with the opportunities that are thinly.

Veiled promos that makes sense as a filter. Why do you think that it's so hard for most people to set boundaries? What trips us up in just setting a boundary when we know a boundary would be useful somewhere?

That's such a great question. I think it would vary so much from person to person. A lot of us would be conditioning growing up to be, you know, to be of service, to help others. And the thing is by setting the boundary, we are actually helping others because it's an extra step or it's an extra filter and it gets rid of a lot of that things that are just, you know, bots or copy pastes. But I think a lot of us, you know, we want to help others in our, in our desire to help. We're like, I don't want to put too many things in place. But then we are actually exhausting ourselves by over giving. So. And we're not actually helping People like, you know, if someone is affronted by I need to send them an email rather than a dm, do they really want to connect with me like that extra, that little extra step? It's not saying I only have yellow M&MS. Now you need to sort through the whole packet. I think sometimes people think they can't set them because it's being too demanding. But there's a difference between one or two steps to let's connect. Then you need to sign me a kidney or something.

I wonder if you're a parent, right?

Yes.

So I'm a parent as well. We have a teenager that we're fostering and I think when you say conditioning, I think most of the way people are parented is when you're a kid and you say no, the parents, like most parents are like, well, you're just going to do it anyway. Like, you don't have boundaries to me, you're just going to do what I say because I'm in charge. That's not the way that I would want a parent or conscious parents parent, I think. But I think we don't get a lot of practice until we really like, are in the game and we need to perform with boundaries. So I agree with you on conditioning and I wonder if I know you work a lot with women. I've observed when I have female clients, sometimes they struggle more to set boundaries and I wonder if there's conditioning around that where it's harder for women in general. Do you see that?

Well, I think there's totally the good girl archetype, the good girl conditioning, as in you seen and not heard, you don't ask for things, you be, be really helpful. Others first, yourself last. That was actually the motto of my primary school. Think about it. Others first, yourself last. And it can sound like, oh, like this is, but it's actually no. And then you get on an airplane and they're like, fit your own oxygen mask first. Because if, if you, if you are attending to others first, there gets to a point where you are depleted and drained. But we actually bring people up like this and I love how you bring the point of, in childhood when we, we don't have agency often depending on how we're parented. And like, I do have my own children and we live interstate, but when I do visit my family, I often, I always give my children choice. And I remember more than one occasion my dad has pulled me up on that and said, like, you're the parent, you tell them what to do. And I'm like, I'm not giving them unlimited choices. It's like this or this. Like, you know, would you like toast or would you like cereal? Would you like to do this activity or this activity? Like to give them examples of they have agency and choice, but also consequences of following through if they change their mind. Like my children will do one activity hobby each term and my daughter wanted to do ballet and then she was bored on like the very first class and I was like, that's okay, we don't need to do ballet for life, but we need to do ballet for the term that I've invested in. So consequences and follow through that not just chopping and changing all the time, but often, you know, people or adults will say, I always wanted to be a pianist. So my kid's going to have piano lessons and the kid can't stand it and they've got no space to speak up. So yeah, allowing from a young age people to have choice, but also consequences of choice.

Yeah. And choice within a healthy band. That makes sense.

Do you see?

Is this the right or wrong way to look at it? So if you look at a spectrum where of boundary setting and you saying no on the extreme side, you're saying no and setting boundaries with everything and everyone and you're sort of an island, right. Like people can't get through to you. You're completely independent and not in service to others in that way. And on the other side of the spectrum, there's no boundaries. So if someone ever asks for one thing, you are now pulled in that direction is part of of the work you're doing helping people find that balance in between the extremes or is that just the wrong mental model?

No. This is great. It's so glad you asked. Here's something I prepared earlier. I'm the queen of hand drawn slides. I met you at Tad Hargrave Marketing for your piece and I was like, oh, the expensive friend strategy with the professional slides. I was like, no, no. Suze does hand drawn slides. So here's a weak boundary. Is it backward for you? It might be. I apologize.

Not backward.

Anyway, so there's a little person and this is supposedly the boundary, but it doesn't loop or anything. So basically you just say yes to everything. This is an example of really, really weak boundaries. Would you make cookies for the school sale? Yes. Would you pick my kid up from sport? Yes. Can I play this? Yes. Yes, yes, yes. And we from this place we often identify this is not healthy. It's not getting me anywhere and it's not Sustainable. So then we think, oh, okay, maybe I should set back boundaries. But what we tend to do is go, so this, if you said this, weak boundaries is selfless. We do a total pendulum swing over to really rigid boundaries, otherwise known as selfish. And the thing with such a rigid boundary where we say no to everything, is that nothing can get in. So we can't ask for help. We can't. We feel really alone and isolated because we are. Because. And we see people over there and we're like, they're having connections, they're having works businesses that work, they're building, they're growing. And I'm here kind of by myself. And we go from selfish back to selfless. And we end up in this weird kind of dynamic of saying yes to everything and saying no to everything and not getting anywhere. So then the healthy middle, which I'd call self full. And it's so funny, I remember someone saying to my son, he's 8, and he's very witty, and they're like, you're really full of yourself, aren't you? And he was just like, well, who else would I want to be full of? Just loved that. But like, self full, as in self first isn't selfish. So a healthy boundary. You have the boundary around you and you have the ability to say yes, to let things in that you want to let in and yourself out. But then you can also say no. And often the fear with people is that if I say no, they won't like me anymore, they won't hire me anymore, they, whatever. But the fact is, the opposite is often very true. So, business example. I've been in business since 2017. My very first website. Apparently there's some tech you can use to go back and see it. I haven't yet found it, but it was really bad way back. But the person, the person was helping me with, it was her. She was new in business, I was new in business. It was the perfect storm for not greatness. But I didn't know anything about building a website, hence why I'd hired someone. And so I didn't know what I didn't know. And then she was like, well, I need the copy. I honestly was like, what do you mean? I need the photos. I was like, I thought you did all of this. Like, in hindsight, I'm super embarrassed. But, you know, you don't know what you don't know, which is why you hire someone. And then the next person for the next iteration of my website, she was like, this is what I need from you. She gave me an onboarding thing. I need this copy for these headings, these photos in this dimension. Like, it was really clear by this date. And then she was like, you can send me over the term of us working together, 30 emails. After that, it's however many dollars per email. And I remember being like, I love this. I love this so much because I know what I need to do by when, what's required and how I can communicate. Because you know what, it's like, someone changes their minds, they send you a message and then a message and then a message. This is one of the reasons I don't do DMs. There's one line and then five minutes later, another line and then another line. And then I look at my phone and I have like 40 messages from this and like, no. So for me as a client, the experience of someone with really clear boundaries, this is what's required by when, how much it's going to be, how. And these are the extras on top. If you go past this, makes me be a lot more ready and prepared and clear before I send an email. Do I want to waste one of my 30 on this, or is this just me having a moment?

Yeah. When I feel like with weak boundaries, it always comes back in the end, you know, I don't know if you agree with this, but the idea that resentment is a sign that there was a boundary that didn't get set earlier, 100%. And I feel like a lot of if you're in the yes phase, I love that slide that you drew. Eventually you have to say no. So there's a no coming down the line. You know what I mean? And it's probably not going to be in the prettiest, most graceful way when it comes.

So people who have weaker boundaries, often known as people pleasers, can be known as doormats. In the last few months, I can't remember where I got the frame from, but I love it. Exploding doormats. And that's exactly what it is. Because eventually you cannot physically say yes anymore. There's not enough time, space, energy, money or whatever. And often that little resentment builds and builds and builds. And how I know when I'm leaning towards this is when I start keeping an unknown tally in my head. It's like, okay, I picked the kids up from school, I made the lunches, I went to that parent teacher, like, it's Jeremy's turn. Jeremy knows nothing about this because I'm not communicating it. And then suddenly, out of no left field, I totally lose it. When he asks about something that was late, oh, that's all I've done for you. And he's like, what? So it's kind of like when you're in the really weak yes, saying yes to everything phase, you don't often realize that you're doing it until you go. And then you go the other way, and it's like, fine. You do everything, and you just absolve yourself for the responsibility. And then it's not done, or it's not done to your ridiculous standards. So you end up back over here again. The reason I could talk to this so well, you teach what you most need to learn, so you can learn it totally.

I have some specific scenarios, if that's a helpful lens, but I wanted to start with, like, are there any specific frameworks for setting boundaries? So we've talked about why to set boundaries, now, how to do it. Are there specific frameworks, even, like, ways to say something that you see, hear from clients again and again? Hey, that was useful. I've just applied that directly to the most simple one.

That is the most common one that I give that almost everybody on first pass dismisses. If this is the first time you're listening to this or you've heard this, you'll be like, that'll never work. It's just so easy. Have you got a, like, loose leaf piece of paper there, Greg? Doesn't need to be very big or one that you can tear out.

Yeah.

So on your piece of paper, on one side of it, I want you to write yes.

Okay.

And then turn it over. And on the other side of it, I want you to write no. And everyone listening, unless you're driving or out walking. But when you get home, literally, loose leaf, piece of paper, it all needs to be. And say you have a plan, and I'd like you to pick an example that's personal. So say you're like, I'm gonna watch a TV show. Like, my kids and I are totally into Master Singer. Don't judge us. But, you know something that you could easily drop. You could be like, I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna read a book. I don't mind. Now, what I want you to do is imagine you said you have a teenager in the house, comes over and goes, you know, can you please help me with my homework? And what I want you to do is hold that little piece of paper out to say you're saying yes to them and what's facing back at you.

You got the no on the other side Exactly.

So when you say yes to others, you're saying no to yourself. It's the simplest boundary thing. Because often we think, well, their homework is important or their medicines are important, or their groceries are important. And the biggest thing when people come to me first, starting to sound boundaries, set them, is that they don't want to let others down. And I'm not saying be a total horrible bitch or asshole or whatever, but sometimes it's about training the people in our life. Like with my kids, my daughter, she sometimes needs help with homework. And there was one time that she came to me at like 10 o', clock, she was supposed to be in bed. She comes in, she's like, mum, I forgot I have this thing due for school. It's like, okay, what is it? A diorama. At 10pm the night before, I here I am building a diorama of, I don't know, ancient. It was the Taj Mahal or it was something. I was like, what are we doing? And so I did it in that one instance, then I set a boundary and I said, in future, as soon as you get activity a task, I need to know about it. And then we had this whole talk and it wasn't long. Few weeks later, similar situation happened. I was like, no, I'm not helping. Like, this is my time that I unwind and watch tv. You're supposed to be in bed. And there was the tears and there was the drama and there was part of me thinking, you're the worst mum in the world. And I was like, no, she needs to learn this lesson now. Because when we help, we're actually enabling if we realize that. And then she got about, she's in grade five, it's not going to be on her lifelong record, you know. But now as soon as she gets her homework, she comes in and she's like, this is it. And we make a timeline and we make a plan and you know, even a really sensitive one. My daughter has anxiety, diagnosed anxiety, and she often needs help processing that. And I get that. But what happens is I ask her after school, oh no, no, I don't want to do it. And so she'll go to bed and then she'll come in once again at 10 o' clock at night. So I'm up with her sometimes past midnight, and then my son likes to get up at 4. So it's like, you know, once again, I'm not fitting my own oxygen mask. So I had to say, I love you. I can't have these conversations at 10 o' clock at night, you need to come to me earlier. I said, what about after school? And then we talked about it, we tried it. And she's like, I'm not ready. I need some time for just me. So then we made this window of time between dinner and, you know, so it's about a two hour window. And then anyway, it's just a process too. For anyone listening, I make it sound so easy, but it's a process and you've both got to work it out. So now what happens many months down the line is after dinner I ask, anything you want to unpack for the day? And she's like, no, no, no. And I'm like, are you sure? Because this is the last opportunity, otherwise it needs to be tomorrow. And to hold that boundary, the first few times has been the hardest thing. But we, when we're putting ourselves out to accommodate others, when we are, you know, sometimes our boundaries do inconvenience them slightly, but it's about finding the balance. Me staying up to midnight is not in service to the rest of my family or myself. And her after school, she's not ready yet. So with any of these things, a lot of the things is like, I don't want to be mean or I don't want to be hard or I don't want to, I don't want to be uncaring. But you need to care for yourself first. So working out, when are the times that you're available and when you're not. Like, say a client reaches out and says, hey, Greg, I need help with this. And it's like, I'm not available today, can you circle back next week? Or letting them know, thank you so much for reaching out rather than being an unintentional emotional dumping board for everybody in your life.

Yeah, that makes sense. When it is hard and you know that it's time to set a boundary and you've done the yes and no, you're very clear that you'd be saying no to yourself. Is it just a matter of just practicing and building the muscle, just getting the reps in.

Like, imagine if we were, I used to be a personal trainer. If we were going to the gym together and you're like, suzanne, I want to be able to bicep curl like £20 or whatever. And currently you're at £1, you're not even going to go and lift up the 20 pound ones. Like that's how you get injury. So it's about getting the reps in most of the time when people are new to Boundaries. They'll forget the yes, no sign. They'll be like, oh, that's dumb. And then they'll remember it, and then they'll. The person will totally railroad them. And they'll be like, oh, but it's celebrating every step. A, it's pausing before you immediately say yes. B, it's starting to practice the languaging. That works for you. Like, right now. For me, years down the line, she's like, that's a no for me, you know? Or depending on the person, like, my husband, I'd rather watch paint dry than do that. He's not offended. He likes how direct I am. But in the beginning, it's kind of like, you might want to soften it a little bit. Thank you so much for asking me. Like, I appreciate the invitation. I'm not available, or, let me get back to you. Like, for me, one of my personal boundaries is I never say yes on the moment someone requests something from me. Let me get back to you. But the other thing, too, when we're so much in other people's business and doing all the things, like, I can't say no to them. Often, if someone's really stressed, they've reached out to a whole bunch of people and we're just the first one who says yes. So if we say, like, come back to me next week when they're in that frantic state, they would have found someone else and had it sorted by then. So I remember one of my clients once was telling me she was at a bar, she's single, and she said there was this bloke guy who was approaching all the women. And, like, everybody said, no, thanks, mate. And then her last friend, like, had a chat to him and everything. And then she was like, why do I always attract these kind of guys? Like, I must be a magnet for them and whatever. And. And she was like, hold up. You were the only one who gave them attention time. Like, everyone else said no. So sometimes when we think I'm the only one, I have to do this for everyone and whatever. You're the one who says yes. They've probably asked 15 other people.

Yeah, it's not. I like that. It's not that you're uniquely attracting that opportunity. You're just the one that says yes. That's really good. Okay, so specific domains of life. I want to get to business eventually because I know a lot of people listening to this run their own business, but I don't want to start there. I have one that has been present for me without going too much into detail, setting boundaries with parents. You know, transitioning to that adult relationship with your parents. When, like we said as a kid, you're usually not setting the boundaries, the parents are setting the boundaries. What comes up there for people, what's helpful.

That can be really tough. And once again, it's always a case by case basis. But for my, the one that comes to mind when you mention parents, for me personally, I parent my children very different to how my parents parented me. And on more than one occasion, I've had to say, I love you fiercely. In this case, you're a grandparent. The grandparent is a very different role to the parent. And this, in this, you know, this isn't the space for this. So in many cases, when it comes to setting boundaries with parents or with anyone, really choose your opportunity. Like if it's at the dinner table at Christmas time or Thanksgiving that you guys have or whatever, not then because, you know, like, it's a high pressure situation. Or like if my dad's watching the news, he's like glued to the tv. Sometimes we, when we start this boundary conversation, we psych ourselves up and we say to them, if they're not, if we don't have their full attention, if they're watching the game or playing the Xbox or, you know, eating the turkey, they're not listening. So we can leave it going, I did it. Yes. And then the next day they completely railroad it and we're like, what happened? So, like, make sure it's in a space that you have their full attention. Make sure that you give them some sort of compliment first. Like I always say to my parents, like, I love you fiercely. Or I appreciate, I appreciate this, like, because I do. You know, as much as family people can annoy us, they often have our best interests at heart, even though it's not aligned with where we're going. So some sort of compliment or acknowledgement and then you know what's going to happen. So like with my parents, it's like in this space you were a grandparent. Here this is a different role to the parent. I don't do it this way. It's not making what they did wrong. It's not arguing with them about the merits of the choice.

Helps you save face a little bit.

Yeah. And then it's kind of. And yeah, it does get awkward. It can need to be reinforced. Another example, I'm an entrepreneur. My family is traditionally employed, so they used to think they could just ring me at any time and I'd drop whatever I was doing. And go and handle that stuff, because I used to do it. Oh, well, you know, you don't. You don't have a. You don't have a real job. Like, oh, the cutting statement. But it was like the boundary I set was, if you want to, like, I'd love to talk to you, send me a text, let me know what times. Because they're retired now, too. I'm not. And I will ring you and. Because if you ring me and I'm on a call, like, if I go off this call from Greg and I have 10 missed calls from my dad, I'll be like, what's happened? Like, like my nervous system will panic. Whereas he's like, well, she just, she doesn't have a real job, so I'll just keep calling her. But, you know, communicating it and upholding it and reminding and remembering. When people cross the boundary, often it's because they just don't. They just forget or they're used to doing it the other way. So you have to retrain.

You know, it's like you did something one way ten times in a row. They're not going to get it the first time. They have 10 times of evidence.

They often have 20, 30, 40 years.

Totally. What I love about the example also with your daughter is that you didn't. You didn't kill her on the first time. You know, you helped with the diorama, but that was your recognition. Okay, there's a boundary here. I haven't set one, so I can't. I don't really have anything to enforce yet. And for next time, here's the expectation. And then having the discipline to stick to that. Stick to your guns.

Yes. And the same with family or with whatever. So family's a common one. Which next category did you have?

So we got family. The second one is a little twist, which is if you have someone in your life who's really working on boundaries, they were the yes. There's emblem to the no. Right. That's hard for people around them. It's at least it's a recalibration. How can you support someone in your life that you care about who is working on boundaries? They may not be as graceful as they will be one day. How can you support them in saying no? I don't know. In the right way, especially when it's frustrating.

I think the first thing is to ask them what kind of support they want and not to mind read it and assume. Because if they are working through something and like, you know, you normally be the yes person Say it's your partner. And they're normally the yes person. And they've said to you, I'm going to work on this. Boundaries. Like, yep, support you. And then they get the call from the school saying, hey, can you make the cookies? And they're going to say, no. And you jump in and go, hang on, you're working on your boundaries. And then, you know, because that push and pull will be really adamant for them. So how can I support you in this instance? Like, would you like a reminder of this? Or would you just like a hug? Or would you like, what. What is it that they want? Because different people will want different things. Because sometimes in our effort to help, we actually stress them out even further. Like, I remember, it's not. It's not directly boundaries, but I used to weigh twice what I do now. My husband had seen me go on every diet there is and many we wish we hadn't heard of. And when I, like, got serious, like, it was the time I said to him, I want your support. He's like, yeah, okay, great. And I was like, okay, great. And we're at the supermarket and there's these Tim Tams. I don't know if you guys have them there, these chocolate biscuits. They're like, die for. I put them in the trolley and he's like slapping them out of my hand. Like, he didn't hit me. Like, nothing like that. But he's like, you don't need those. And he puts them back. What do you mean, I don't need them? You don't tell me what to do. I bought two packets and I ate every single one. And then I'm crying in the car going, you don't support me. And he's like, what do you mean? I put the biscuits back. And I was like, like, later. This took while to unpack. I was like, what I wanted was a hug and a reminder that this is tough. So, like, asking for what you need. Whereas for him, when he wants support with something, he wants that hard line. Don't touch it. You know, remind me. To me, I find that really obtrusive. And then I get like this petulant teenager who's going, watch me. So it's like, what. What kind of support would be supportive for you? And sometimes it's just that it could be a pause or a reminder or, you know, this is tough, or it could be that harder line, but only you will know what works for you. I think the best example of boundaries in my personal life and for a lot of Women is when you're in labor, you don't care about the other person's. Your partner's opinion. You tell them exactly what you want. I want ice. What are you doing with the heat pack? I said I wanted ice. They go and get the ice. I want a heat pack. Like, you don't need to be quite that demanding, but when there is times of great stress, you tend to sugarcoat it a lot less. But, you know, having that example of what would be supportive for you and also reiterating saying, I know that I said this, but now that I've experienced it, it didn't help that much. Can we try this instead? So communication clear. And appreciating them for stepping in and for trying. Like later on, I was like, thank you. At the time, I was really annoyed.

That makes sense. My wife is a doula, so she's. She loves seeing women get in touch with their power that way. Because you're right, there's no margin for people pleasing. You know, when you're birthing a child, you have bigger, bigger issues than, is this other person going to be a little bit disappointed? So, yeah, I think I'll add, as someone who I've typically had quite strong boundaries, I've probably pendulumed in different ways. But in seeing people I care about go through a journey of getting their boundaries stronger, it can kind of suck a little bit for me in the short term because, like, well, before they were doing all the stuff that I like, I was pleased. Right. They were people pleasing and I was pleased.

Yes. That's such a great example.

Yeah. I think remembering what. Remembering the long game, number one, it's like, this is someone I love. I want them to live a life that they're happy with. Right. So that's first and foremost. But also realizing the exploding doormat on the other side, they could continue to say yes, but I know what happens when resentment builds up, and I don't want that either.

Yeah. When you stop people pleasing, some people will not be pleased. Like that is. That is such part of the deal. But the other thing too, as you said, the bigger picture. So this is a personal example that is a little left of field. But my mom, when I was a kid, I don't know what happened, but for whatever reason, I bought her this expensive perfume and for Mother's Day, and she's like, sprayed it all over and whatever. And I was like, oh, she loves it. So every year, birthday, Christmas, Mother's Day, I saved up my money, bought her this perfume. I was like, I Gave myself the best daughter star. Anyway, fast forward a number of years. My daughter, first Mother's Day that she's old enough to get something brings me this thing I can't stand. It stinks, absolutely stinks. And I remember having a conversation. I was like, oh, Xanthe, thank you so much. This is beautiful and so thoughtful. In future mummy me, I'm very sensitive to smell. So can you not, you know, can you not give me a perfume? Things I would like include. And I gave her a few things and whatever. And I was like, huh, parenting win. And my mum was there and she was like, suzanne, you are the worst mother ever. And I was like, excuse me? She's like, how dare you? You broke her heart and you do this. Do you know how many years I've been wearing white linen for you? And I was like, hang on, I spent my money, I saved. I thought you liked this. So sometimes when we are, you know, people pleasing and because we're doing it for them, and then they don't even like it. So you can be such a thing here. And I was like, who is. I could go on Reddit and go, you know, am I being the bitch? Or whatever, but. But like, who's in the wrong here? Me thinking that she loved this thing and I was saving my pennies, or her pretending that she loved the thing because she thought that, you know, so.

It'S boundaries, you know, if you don't set a boundary, you're not giving someone feedback.

And the thing is, when you're giving someone a gift, you want to give them what you think that they would love. Why would you give them something they didn't like? So it's kind of like when you set a boundary or when you say, actually, thanks so much. Like, for me, I don't respond to DMs. If somebody sends me one, I'm not going to tear them a new one. I'm just gonna say thanks for the message. Can you send this via email or whatever? Some people might think that's rude or affrontive or whatever, but this is how I communicate. If I make an exception for this person and then I have to remember and it just gets exhausting. So it's communicating your preferences and allowing the people who it's. A lot of times it isn't out of the way. Oh, she prefers an email. Okay. It's not that big of a deal. Haven't asked them to skyride it.

That makes sense. It seems like there's a distinction between what is being communicated and how you're communicating it. So you cannot set a boundary in a rude way. Or you could set a boundary in a rude way. Right. And vice versa.

And you can make what you make it mean that they make it mean. Like often we don't want to not do it or to ask for how we prefer it because we think we're being demanding or diva like or whatever. But really it's just as easy. Like another really common example for friends. Do you want to go to the movies and see Marvel? It could be like, thanks so much for inviting me Greg. Love to go to the movies. Is there anything else showing? I'm not really into action movies. Easy. Rather than going, sure. And then you find out 40 movies later that your friend doesn't actually enjoy that, but they've just been doing it for you.

That reminds me of the kind of principle of yes and from improv being able to say yes but on your terms. So let's get into business. You and I are both coaches entrepreneurs. I feel like there's two ways of setting boundaries in a business. There's the boundaries you set with yourself because you could be always on as an entrepreneur. You could not ever set work hours and always be thinking about the business. And then there's the boundaries you set with other people like your clients, your team, stuff like that. Let's focus on the with yourself first. Where do you see people making mistakes as business owners setting boundaries with themselves?

Entrepreneurs are the only people I know. I think this is a quote I know who's attributed to but who leave a 9 to 5 to work 24 7. Like it's like I don't want this soul sucking career that takes all my time, but I'm actually going. But because it's on their own terms, they don't really see it so much. So what I see with people is and hands up, I did this myself very early in business, especially when you don't have a lot of or any clients yet. I used to think the way to get clients was just to be overly accommodating. Somebody wanted to speak to me at 6am the next day and they messaged me at 10 I'll clear my calendar. I've done that on more than one occasion and often there are no show. And then I'm all frustrated going like what happened? This was urgent. I cleared my space for you. So it's kind of the reason that's overcoming my own boundary is what had I planned to do? Go for a walk, do a meditation, do some journaling. Like my Self care when I became an entrepreneur. So the boundaries with self is like, when am I going to work and when am I not? How am I contactable and how am I not? When am I going to respond? And holding those and not thinking to yourself, oh, just this once. Just, just this once. Because once you start that, you're opening a door that becomes harder and harder to close. So for me, like, my personal turning point for my personal time was one time I was in the park with my kids and somebody sent me a message where I responded to. Cause I was always responding. My son looked at me deadpan and said, you love your phone more than me. And I was absolutely heartbroken. And that was like the impetus to be like, yeah, no, this needs to change. Because there's always, it's never going to end. There's always, there's always going to be people who are reaching out to you or want your attention or want your time. And also, when is it enough? Do I need to finesse this blog? Do I need to do another post? Do I need to post another reel?

There's always more you could do.

So practicing containment, like deciding your strategy, like, how are you going to show up for yourself in your business? And then setting a period of time. I'm going to do this for three months or six months, not a week. We tend to do something for a week or two and then God's not working. And then noticing the other things come in, like, I've never met a shiny object I didn't like. And then just noticing, okay, well, you know, right now, this is what I'm doing. And putting that in the toy box. You might look at that in three or six months. But really sticking to that, I think is the hardest thing because other people's. And the other thing, never take a break and go to your email. So many people's like, oh, when you go to your email, you're going from your priority to someone else's. So it's not really a break, it's just switching roles. And also the other thing I'd say is scheduling your rest or down or hobby or break time first and guarding that like a dragon hoards its treasure, because, yeah, otherwise it will never be enough.

It made me think about, you know, this idea of yes on one side, no on the other. It's almost like that story with your son, like to. Sometimes you can say yes to someone and then no, it's facing your family or your son. Right. So sometimes it's saying no to yourself. But it also could Be saying no to someone else who's going to need you for something but really actually need you. They haven't asked yet. You don't have enough buffer, you don't have enough margin with all your yeses to accommodate the people that you care most about 100%.

That's such a great example. I don't even remember which client that was. That was years ago now. I don't even remember what program I was offering. I've got no recollection of that whatsoever. But I remember my son and I remember him forever. So, you know, sometimes your boundaries will inconvenience other people, but that's okay because they don't need to work with you. There's this phrase called a want match. Have you heard of that before?

No.

So basically, you know, this is what they want and are you a match for that? And sometimes that you are. And know as you start to grow, like, you know when you start to set boundaries or when your business starts to scale or whatever, the people you no longer want much for them, it doesn't mean that you don't like them or you don't care about them, or you don't respect them. It's just that you're moving apart and it just allows other people. The other one that it works with is this concept called the empty elevator by Martha Beck. Have you heard this one? So everybody in your life is like in your elevator. And what happens is sometimes the elevator is so full that it can't lift. Like it's just got too much people, too much weight in there. So you have to let some people off. And sometimes as you're up, leveling, shifting, changing, setting boundaries, a lot of people have just gotten off your elevator and you're traveling up and you can feel really alone. And then the second guessing and double guessing and all that happens. But then you arrive on a new floor and the doors can open and new people, other people can come in, but they can't down here because there's no space. And what often happens, it's hard to farewell someone or to not have a thing, but then they can go and ride their own elevator over there. And you meet again, you become a what match? Because they've done their work and you've done your work. The number of clients that I've worked with, and then we've had a break, and then I've worked with and we've had a break. It's not that they don't love and care and respect for you in this moment, just you're no longer a want match. And sometimes you are again, but it's not you. Pleasing, accommodating, cowering, being what they desire because you're not the match for that. But when you let that go, they can get that elsewhere and then you are a match again.

That makes sense. Are there any, I hesitate to use the word hacks, but are there ways where you can almost automate your boundary setting or make it so that it's going to happen by default and you almost have to opt out of the boundary? And I'll give you an example. I worked with a client who. Are you familiar with the Enneagram? Yes. So like a type 2. And I've heard you work with a lot of type twos. So people who love to nurture and care for others, like that's a big part of their perception of their own value, right? So I worked with this client and we might have worked like five or six sessions in a row on what I call like a weekly map. Like actually saying, here's my default perfect week, here's how I'd lay it out, here's when I'd work, here's when I would do calls, when my best energy is, here's when I would have off. And there kept being a huge difference between the weekly map on the Excel spreadsheet and the actual calendar. And what was happening was that, you know, she had daughters who wanted rides places, she had friends who wanted her attention. And it was encroaching on what she said she would do during that time, which was often the things that got encroached on were things that no one else would hold you accountable to. It's like, I need to write to do this blog post, right? It's like just you've decided it's important. No one else cares whether it gets done or not. And one of those examples was working out. And she kept feeling like I should be able to just work out independently. I have this gym in my house, I should be able to do that. And it got to the point where I was like, look, you've worked with a trainer before, right? She's like, yeah. I was like, did you miss any appointments with the trainer? She was like, no, it actually worked really well. I was like, go call the trainer today. You're hiring the trainer. You know what I mean? Like, maybe down the road you will have the intrinsic motivation to work out on your own, but I'd much rather it just be an appointment on your calendar for self care, because that's part of how you're wired right now. Like, you will respond better to that. You won't miss those appointments. So that's just one example. But what does that bring up for you?

I think into any times of personality typing or whatever, we can be like, well, I want to be like them. Like, I'm also a type too. And it's like, I don't want to be like this. Like, I want to be like that. Or we can maximize the way that we are. So I know that I work really well with accountability and I use that as my superpower. So, like I find people to work out with or I find people to journal with. We get on zoom and we just journal. Like I, I maximize that or somebody to check in with, like my own coach. I send them a quick voice note, I did the thing like, and they're like, yes, they just send me a thumbs up or a gif or gif, whatever you call it. But you know, maximize the way that you are wired rather than unpacking and trying to be wired in a different way because, you know, that's your superpower. Other people don't have that. Some people are rebellious by nature. It doesn't matter if it's planned. It doesn't matter if they have accountability like the, they just don't want to do it forever. So people like me and like, it sounds like your client who do well without accountability. We can be like, well, I should be able to just do this on my own now. I'm just thankful that that actually is. And in the beginning it might be hiring a trainer or a coach. And then what it is after that is it, you know, for me, I don't need them there in the room to be training me. But I do work really well when there is somebody that I can check in with. And also personally, not a family or a friend because they become my enabling partner. But my husband, like, oh, the kids are up all night. It's okay. You can miss today. No, it's not okay.

Yeah. Are they supposed to work you here? Are they supposed to push you? Yeah.

So, you know, finding somebody and what works best for you. So in the beginning it might be okay. I need a trainer and they need to come to my house and they need to like stand there and crack the whip, so to speak. And then like, I just need somebody that I can message and say that I'm doing the thing. But it's just noticing, you know, the way that you, you tend to, and not making that wrong or bad. But how can you maximize that and, and eventually you'll get to the place where you just do the thing. It just becomes second nature. But it might take longer for some people than others. Like for me, my program, why wait? One of the things that we do is accountability. I've just taken for the first time in five years, three months off, we had no round and I was like, oh, I need this too. It's just as much for me as for them. And this morning we're back in again. I was sending a voice note. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm out for a walk at 4:00 in the morning. Because I had this interview with Greg. I'm like, so someone's got their Christmas tree up already. So I'm taking a photo of it. Not any personal thing, but just the Christmas tree. I thought that was funny because it's like October. But I digress. But it's like, you know, what works for you and not saying, well, you know, sometimes when I get in my imposter syndrome, like I teach this, I should be able to, and it's like, no, I teach this because I struggle with it too. It's what makes me uniquely qualified.

Yeah, not making your, not trying to make your weaknesses into your strengths. You know, I think that's like, you could do it. You probably could eventually do it, but why make it so hard on yourself, you know? You know, use the strengths you have, use the way you're wired. So let's get into the nitty gritty before we wrap with clients in a business, right? Typically if you're doing a good job as a coach, onboarding, you have some sort of agreements that are set somehow. It could be an E sign thing, it could be just in the first call. What are some agreements that you think are just critical in terms of boundaries? Like without this agreement, people just get into trouble with their client services, how.

Long the contract is for. So say for example, I used to do a six month contract which was, it was weekly, so it was 26 sessions. And people, things come up like life happens and I get it. And then six months became nine months became 12 months become 18 months. And then you're hamstringing your income as a business because you can't onboard new clients. And also if they're not booking the sessions, but they're still, if you use Vox or email, like some sort of support, your package is actually extending because you are accommodating that part and overworking in that part. So being really clear. So now for me personally, my 6 month contract is now 20 sessions to allow for people to. So Basically I do one session to start the contract, one session to finish, which is two and then there's 18, so there's three a month. So we get one, you know, but being really, really clear and it's in my contract now if those sessions aren't taken up by these date, they're forfeit and it's on them to book it. So we will book them together in the first call. And if they need to reschedule, basically explaining when is the use by date, what happens if they haven't used it by them. And the other thing too I see a lot is what happens if they turn up late. Like what I used to do, say, you know, you came 10 minutes late, I'd go 10 minutes over. And that's, you know, part of the thing. It's like, okay, you're perpetually late, let's coach. Or do you want to coach on that? Like we can address this. Like that's what they're coming to you for by you being over accommodating, they're not actually getting the value. And I remember my son sees an occupational therapist and a few weeks ago she was late, you know, because the client had been late, it mucked up her whole day. And I said to her like, this is not going to stand again. Like someone's inability to be on time is not my problem because you know, so times and also when they can reschedule. So what I used to do is I had the 24 hour policy reschedule 24 hours notice, which I never followed. And I just let everyone do whatever. Then I gave them like one exception and now there's none. And I'm clear with that from the beginning because I don't want to be the arbiter of which reason is acceptable and which isn't. Like life happens, people go through all sorts of things, I get that. But I don't go to the supermarket, buy a loaf of bread, don't eat it, take it back when it's moldy and ask for a refund because I didn't make time to eat this. So yeah, you reschedule things, how long your contract goes for and also how and when they can contact you. So because some people, you have people who are messaging you on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, email, WhatsApp, like where is, where do they contact? So for me personally, I have some clients who I work with them and they work with me and we're also friends. So it kind of A lot of people would say, how does that not get muddy? So it'd be like when I'm your client we talk on telegram, when you're my client we talk on voxer. And when we're just friends, we're on WhatsApp. But we're really clear on that and it never crosses and if for whatever reason it does just that reminder, oh, I'm in the wrong space and moving the message. So when how they can contact you. And the last thing I'd say because I think this is where a lot of businesses let down is their off boarding. Like people are really good at onboarding, hey, come work with me and whatever. But what about at the end? Like how can they contact you afterwards? You know what is and isn't acceptable? Because sometimes you've spent six months with this person, you've talked weekly, you know more about them than their parents do and then you feel like you're suddenly ghosted. So to have like a clear off boarding process is I think where a lot of businesses let themselves down.

I like that one, that's a good one. What are you currently doing in terms of between session communication? I know you mentioned there's different places you might want to communicate, but what's your specific agreement? Is there a number of messages they can send per an amount of time?

So for my one to one. Well actually I don't do a lot of one to one, so I'll go with my group because that's my primary income and my primary business model. So my group, we have a Facebook group and we have a Voxer thread. Now they can message, comment, chat amongst themselves as much as they like in that. And a lot of them, they do connect where I come in and where I will respond. I call those the community, like the connection chats. So in those spaces I'm also a member of the community. I don't coach. And I'm really clear on that because sometimes say, you know, you're in my group, Craig, and you ask a question and I've got all the time in the world and I write you a nice big long answer. And then someone else like Sarah writes something. But I'm just about to take my kid to gymnastics. So I give Sarah a GIF and a thumbs up. What can happen is Sarah be like she cares more about Greg than me. Like Greg's like, you know, the teachers, all this underhanded stuff can happen. I'm wholly unavailable for this. So I'm really clear with my group. These are the times that I Coach. If anything you share in the group you actually want my direct input in. You post it on the question thread and in the dedicated group coaching times. I will coach on that. If you can't attend live, I have people all over the world and you want me to hold that until you can come just comment. Or if you aren't attending and I have a crack and it ends up not going because sometimes when they're not there and you make an interpretation, ask again. So I'm really clear, any admin type questions must be by email. Any coaching specific questions is on the thread, but just general community stuff like hey this morning my someone's put a Christmas tree up. I will say that I will be in there Tuesday to Thursday business hours. That's my promise that I will be responding. But other than that, just whenever I feel like it. And because we're a global audience, I encourage everyone to put their stuff on airplane or whatever so they're not randomly getting notifications. I don't have any notifications enabled so that doesn't distract me.

I think that we need to tell people what to do, what we want. I think the downside of people pleasing is expecting others to be mind readers, you know. And I think that people generally work really well, especially in a business context when they know what to do. Just like the example you said of that was nice when you worked with that website designer and it was very clear how you were going to engage. So not only is it are you able to say yes to you when you set a boundary, but it's. I think that it can be a gift to others as well.

Yeah. And I think if we reframe having an onboarding or having expectations instead of them being a burden or like I'm asking for too much. No, they're clarity like when you hire someone it's often because you don't know. Like I've hired people to help me with YouTube and different things that I'm learning. The reason I've hired them is because I don't know. And when they like well I don't want to ask too much of you or whatever it's like what am I supposed to send when? How can I communicate when Also time frame, especially for people who aren't coaches, if you're delivering something, a website or a YouTube channel or something, some canva graphics or I don't know when can they expect to receive them and then if for whatever reason you're not going to meet that deadline because you know life happens communicating as soon as possible not leaving it to the last minute and then offloading your personal stuff onto them because that's not their business. So like for example, at the moment I have a very, I have a terminally ill family member interstate so I'm having to travel a lot unexpectedly and at the last minute I've really communicated that to my group and I've said look this may I don't like to have to chop and change and I realize this might frustrate you but this is how you can communicate and this is what I'm open to. You know, let me know how I can make recompense if this is too much because yeah, we don't want to put our stuff onto the people who are hiring us. That's not their business.

100%. Okay. I think that's a great place to wrap. Thank you so much Suzanne for, for your time and insight on this.

Really thank you for having me.

You're welcome. I'll talk soon.