Your Sales Page Is Boring. Here's How To Fix It. - Interview with Lianna Patch

I have Leanna Patch here. Leanna is a professional copywriter. She is a speaker, a comedian. And what's cool is she combines comedy with conversion copywriting. So basically she writes stuff that has people laugh and then pull out their wallets and buy the thing that her client is selling. And so you can learn more about her@punchlinecoffee.com Liana, thanks for taking the time.

Thanks for having me.

What is. Let's start with this. Why is copywriting important? It might sound obvious, but for a lot of people watching this who sell services, they may be used to selling on the phone where they can kind of like they can pivot. Oh, that, you know, this person has this objection. So I can just answer that. Why is learning the skill of copywriting important for someone, especially if they're in a service based business?

I think if you. I think people who are good on the phone have an advantage when it comes to writing copy. I'm not going to answer your question kind of obliquely like, why is copy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because if you are skilled at sort of leading a sales conversation, then you already have the skills you need to write copy. And that's actually a trick that you can use is just record yourself having one of those conversations and turn that into your page draft. But basically, copywriting is the art of persuading people in words to take an action. I like to think of it as distinct from content, which is more around like education. So education is at the top of the funnel, people are interested in you. And then down here is when you get to copy and you start telling them to do something. Right? And like, who doesn't want to have the skill to persuade people to do things? It's arguably the most important power that we have. I could be a dictator of a small country right now, but I chose to run a business instead.

I like it. I like it. Why use comedy in copywriting?

Oh my God. How much time do you have?

We have 60 minutes.

Everyone, 55 minutes have left on earth. Humor and comedy and laughter do so many things for us as humans. They are arguably like the, I think, the best social glue that we have. There are cognitive impacts on humor. So when you hear a joke, you're more likely to remember the information that preceded that joke or that comes right after that joke. There are social impacts. So when someone makes you laugh, you have affinity for them, right? You like them more, you're more willing to forgive them when they inevitably mess up. And if they deliver their apology with a little bit of, well, Placed humor, you're more likely to accept that apology. And then cultivating a sense of comedy, a sense of humor in your own brain, actually makes you a more resilient person. There's a reason that humor is a coping mechanism and a skill that you can develop. There are just so many benefits in all facets of life, and the one that I find most applicable to people who come to me is improv. So, like, if you have never taken an improv class, the skills that you learn, the parts of your brain that you start to turn on in improv, make the rest of your life so much more fun. Like, you're in the grocery store, but your improv brain is working, and you're like, what if I were a carrot right now? You know? And you start doing an improv scene, hopefully with your partner who's game for that?

Well, I'm curious. That makes me think of an insight I had the other day, which is, I am usually not. I usually don't have that funny part of my brain turned on. I feel like there's a flow you can get into where you're like, okay, I'm just gonna be silly, and that. And then you're funnier in some contexts than others. Like I've noticed, we have with some friends local, we have, like, Taco Tuesday, and it's a. It's a group of maybe 8 to 10 on average. And I feel like I get good laughs at Taco Tuesday, but in other contexts, I feel like I'm almost not even engaging that part of me. And I'm curious if you feel like people have certain things that help them get into a funny mode, because I think that'll translate when we talk about copywriting.

Oh, for sure. But my first question when you said that was, how comfortable are you with your friends at Taco Tuesday? And does that, like, level of comfort have something to do with your ability, your willingness to go out on a limb and make a joke?

I am comfortable in that setting. I feel very accepted for, like, who I am, and I feel like there is an audience component now that we're talking about it. Like, I think I'm maybe less funny with my wife, Emma, one on one, because I'm just like. I don't know. I'm just. I'm just with her. But it's like, if I can get those laughs, I feel like I have more reinforcement, because also, Emma doesn't laugh at my jokes, so I get better reinforcement. Better reinforcement at Taco Tuesday. So I probably do it more because.

Of That I literally dump somebody because they never laughed at my jokes. So.

So that might be harsh. I'm sure she laughs sometimes. She just thinks I'm dumb. Like, I mean, you always think your partner is like a little bit.

Yes. I'm not telling you to divorce your wife, just to be clear.

Yeah.

What are you trying to do, Destroy your marriage in a single. Sorry, Emmett. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, I think there, there is something to that comfort aspect. There is something to the expectation of performance. I find that that little part of me turns on more when I'm like a speaker at a conference. So every time I go down into the. The area where everybody' I know that they're expecting me to be the funny version of me and like the entertainer, you know, and my way of doing that is just to be a huge idiot. So it doesn't work for everyone. Yeah, I think it really does come down to permission and comfort and willingness to go out on that limb, take a few risks, make some jokes and be willing to be the center of attention, even if it's just for like one punchline.

Yeah, that makes sense. I feel like not obviously not taking yourself too seriously too, because I have times when I write copy or content and it's more. I'm more in a serious mood and other times I'm more in a silly mood. And obviously like the silly mood is when I put more comedy in.

Yeah, well, I didn't even. So I touched on all the, like, the benefits of humor and comedy, but I didn't even mention anxiety relief, which is a huge studied benefit of humor. So like, if you're writing a sales page and you're like, oh man, this is, this is really important stuff. And I'm like, getting to the heart of the matter, but it's coming off as a little bit too salesy. Like maybe you go through and you identify a time when you've ramped up the anxiety so much that someone risks being like, ah, I can't deal with this right now, I'll come back later and you put a little joke in there to sort of ease the tension, you know, like release the pressure a little bit. That's a valve, not me tweaking it.

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah. So having humor in comedy is helpful for obviously the. The reader or the potential customer and help them kind of relax, relate to you. And I think it is also helpful for the writer just because content's more fun when you can, you know, make jokes in it. And it's not the serious thing. Let's talk about incongruity, because I feel like it's weird to talk about, like, why jokes work, like, why is stuff that's funny funny? But I feel like you kind of need to understand it if you want to improve the skill. If we're, if we're feeling like, okay, you're not just born funny, it's something you can work on. Explain incongruity, because I feel like that's key to making stuff hit and copy.

Oh, for sure. So there are so many different theories of why humor, why comedy, what's happening in the brain. A lot of them have sort of been debunked. Not all of them cover every single joke you'll ever find, which is why there are so many. But the, the main accepted one is called incongruity resolution theory. And that suggests that when we hear a joke, the funny happens. When we, like, we have an expectation, there's something incongruous that happens that makes us go like, huh? And then our brain goes through this process of like, is this what we expected? No. Is this like surprising, delightful, weird? And that's where the laugh comes from? And then actually on the other side of that equation, if it's not surprising or delightful and weird, that's where you get like absurd humor, where the joke comes from, the lack of resolution. You're like, wait, get it? And then you get that there's nothing to get. And you laugh at yourself for like, for just being taken for so long, or you laugh at the joke for just being so stupid or nothing. Like a nothing burger. I'm not explaining this well.

No, it makes sense. It's like incongruity is when you're, when it's not what you expect, you know, like when the way it starts off and it ends differently. And I think you gave good examples too in one of your posts about like, the rule of three. And I feel like this was a really helpful, clear takeaway of just how to use comedy in your copy. So can you explain a little bit of that, how that works?

So, yeah, I love that you mentioned the rule of three, because that's, that's one of the places, the many places where copy and comedy converge. So the rule of three is a series of three items in your writing. And humans for some reason, just really like three. It's the, the smallest number you can have in a series that feels like a complete set. So it's like tickles that part of your brain that's like, ah, it's done. I get it. But the way we use it in comedy is you'll have two things, like, you know, duck, duck, goose. And then goose is like, ooh, didn't expect that. And so there's so many different ways to use this, joke wise. You can do, like, normal thing, normal thing, weird thing. Generally, you can do, like, thing that you would expect, thing that you would expect, and then very specific thing that you don't expect. Let me think of an example. I like pina coladas, long walks on the beach, and the 75th digit of PI or so, I don't know, like, something that just is so weirdly off base that you're like, oh, that's kind of funny. Of course. I showed up, like, as my funny self today.

That's the pressure that you must feel to hit. Like, do you feel like you're in a. If you're in a consult with a client, do you like, I'm gonna have to get one banger in here?

No, because there is a massive part of my brain that is completely useless except for really dumb wordplay. And that part is always listening. And so usually someone will say something, and I'll be like, or what about this? And they're like, got it. But I can't do math. You know, other people.

I feel like other people probably try to be funny around you.

They. You know, people try to be funny and often succeed. I'm lucky to be surrounded by a lot of funny people. But the weird thing is, and this might just be, like, a parasocial effect because I'm so, like, forthcoming and kind of crass and personal in my marketing. People write to me as if they know me really well. They're like, what's up, crazy lady? Anyway, here's the thing. And I'm like, we've never met. Who are you? Why are you in my.

That's great. Yeah, that's great. Okay, so we talked about incongruity. Let's talk about some other ways where people can make this actionable. Use more comedy in their copywriting. One of the things that I had here was comic book words.

Oh, yeah, onomatopoeia. So, like, when you are reading something and you read a description of a sound or a noise, your brain will, like, try to hear that for you. And it. Just using those words is a way to light up different parts of the brain that you would normally do if you're just reading something. So, like, how can you try to use all of the senses of your reader, even if they're just Reading. So like boom, crash, bang, or like asterisk, sound of the front door opening and me peeking in, you know they're going to feel it's. Yeah, yeah, that's one way. Another way to work in more comedy, to work in more humor. That I often tell people, especially who run like personality or service based businesses, like, you know your audience really well, you know what they struggle with and those problems and objections are a great place to, to put in some humor that's like, hey, I get it. Like, we've all been there. You know when you open your inbox and there's 50 emails from the client and they're all asking you the deadline that's at the top of the Asana project and you just want to slam it shut and like move to Ontario. Apologies. If anyone's in Ontario, it's a great place. Like, make a list of those objections and then poke a little fun at them in a way that positions you on the same side as your reader. Because you don't want to offend them, you don't want to insult them. And sometimes if you're in a position of authority, you don't want to poke fun at yourself either. You don't want to be self deprecating. So this kind of like observational humor, we're making fun of, this thing that lives out there in the world that we can both see, but it's not threatening to you or me, is a really safe way to start playing with jokes. Hmm.

That makes sense. That makes me think of a. I don't know if anyone found it funny in my audience, but this is like a very niche thing that only coaches would get. There was some blog post that I started off and it was about like how to become a better coach or something. It was like, how can you tell, like whether someone's a good coach or not? And it's like a, the amount of money they make. This uses the rule of three as well. A, the amount of money they make. Two, like, you know, how many repeat clients they get. Or three, like how big their Wheel of Life tattoo is on their back. And Wheel of Life is like, it's like a diagnostic that a lot of Life coaches use.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I feel like that insider knowledge, I feel like if you can make a joke out of that, it's kind of two birds with one stone.

Yes, exactly. Like you have this specialized knowledge of whatever your coachees do, so use that to show them. Like, I'm actually in this with you. I get it.

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, another thing I liked, I don't know if this is, this was under the comic book sounds heading, but I wanted to mention it was like making your call to action buttons more interesting. Like I think you gave an example of like, you know, drop kick this like into your cart or something like that. And I was like, oh, that's good, that's fun.

Yeah. Okay. Nobody wants to learn more. I hate that cta, Kill that with fire. But like, CTA is written in first person. I want to be this or I want this, I want to do this. I am this person. Those are always more fun because we read those in first person. I, I wrote a landing page recently for a software tool that helps people retire spreadsheets. And so one of the buttons on the page was take your spreadsheets out behind the barn. Like, you know, I might have written kill with fire actually as a button super specific. And like long button copy is not necessarily bad because obviously there's good to know for the eye to see. Yeah. Like how can you make this button so irresistibly fun to click? Or this link, instead of just under underlining, click here and linking like, oh, makes me so sad.

Yeah, that makes sense. The third thing I want to talk about in terms of the how to, how to. How to use comedy is just this great example you gave about sort of diffusing a situation that could be awkward. You gave, you had this blog post which I'll link to for people that was like, here's a way to follow up with clients in a funny way when they're not. When they're ghosting you basically. Right. And like I have something that I teach called the magic email for that. But it's not funny. Like it's actually sort of like confronting. Like it's basically like, hey, like, since I haven't heard back from you on this, I'm going to assume that, you know, you've gone another direction. Thanks Greg. And like you just send that and you usually get a response very quickly because they're like, oh, I'm a bad person. Like I should have responded. But yours are way better because I feel like they force the issue while inserting humor. And I wanted to read this one because I don't remember them. Off the top of your head. I Woke up at 3am Thinking about this project. Very sweaty. Haha. Would love to know if you're still game to kick off next week. Like that's so perfect.

Well, to be fair, that post was definitely not all real things that I would actually Send. That was more of a humor piece. But yeah. So you were sending a version of what copywriters call the nine word email, which I think Dean Jackson either came up with or start. And it's, hey, Greg, still interested in this thing? No sign off. No, thank you. That's it. Just that open loop. And that always gets a reply. And so I actually like that a little bit better than just being like, I'm done with you. Love, Greg, you know, because they, because it just. How are you going to ignore that? You know? So, yeah, version of that that I send is, instead of like just circling back or just looping back, I send like, hey, Greg, just the gentlest butterfly wingtip nudge of a reminder that I'm waiting on this from you. Do you still want to do whatever? No worries either way. No hard feelings either way. Smiley face. Like, I make it so easy for them because, like, I don't want to work with somebody if they're not super jazzed. But I would like an answer.

Yeah, totally. That makes sense. And I feel like if you, if you send that follow up email in a way where they're made wrong now, they almost can't respond because you're gonna like lock them up versus if you, if you make it totally okay to respond, then they're, then they can kind of let go of the fact they haven't responded and just do it.

Yeah. And you can. I mean, I hesitate to put words in people's mouths, but I will sometimes say, like, totally okay if it's not feeling like a fit or right now is not feeling like the right time. Because especially I think in the coaching space, if someone's hesitating on pulling the trigger to like, work with you, they haven't named those feelings. They haven't processed them. They actually don't know what they think. They just feel that resistance and like, boy, what if they had a coach to help them work through stuff like that? But in the meantime, you can be like, I'm going to take the burden off you. Like, please just respond yes or no.

That makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. What if, what if you're not naturally funny? Like, what if someone feels like, well, I could put more humor in my copy, but that's just not really what my brand is like. I'm not, I don't make jokes in real life. It's a very intense, serious brand, so why would I use humor?

Don't use it. Nope. Not everybody won't use it.

That makes sense. Stay congruent with the brand.

Yeah, like, don't shoehorn in anything that feels like you're performing. I get, occasionally I'll get a client request that's like, I'm not funny at all. And I want you to make me seem really funny. I'm like, what are you going to do when you show up in real life and you're not funny? Like, what are you going to do when there's a huge mismatch between your website copy? So I'm always trying to write something that still at the end of the day feels like authentic to them. Authentic is such a buzzword now, but it's important. Yeah. If it doesn't feel right and it feels forced, then don't force it. Not everybody has to be funny, you.

Know, that makes sense.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's like someone whose text game is really strong in dating and they're like hilarious via text. But then you meet them and you're like, wait. Like with time you did okay because you had time, but now in real life you.

Yeah, it's like processing. You're just like waiting. That I was coming to expect. Yeah, yeah. Have great text game. And then sometimes if you meet me in person, I'm like, I'm tired. I have nothing for you.

I think that's, that's fair. I think I'm the same way. Let's, let's zoom out beyond just comedy and talk about copywriting in general. Because I feel like if someone's listening to this and they're very new to copywriting, we're kind of talking about how to enhance like it's. Comedy is almost a layer on top of the foundations of good copy that someone needs. And I noticed that when I switched from doing one on one calls primarily to having sales pages and things like that in my business, yes, some of that translated over, especially just the market research of knowing the words my clients were using on the calls. But it was a new skill. Like, it was a different way of selling. So, like, where should people start when they're thinking about, like, how do I write good copy? Like, what's the, what's the. What are the main things I should have in mind?

Yeah, well, we talked about, you know, not starting with the blank page, starting with the transcript of a sales call to see how you actually sell people. Like, if you're recording those. I always like starting with something. It's always easier to edit and add than it is to just like sit down in front of the white bowl. You know, you can use a simple framework, problem, agitation, solution. What is the problem that they're facing, how can you make it, like, really feel like it needs to be solved right now? That's the agitation piece. And then how can you show them that you have the solution that they're looking for? That's a classic framework. You don't really need another one.

What if someone. What if someone says, like, I don't like the idea of agitating someone's problem.

Then I don't know, you better be really charismatic on your sales calls or, like, have a really great referral at work. There is, there is that resistance to like, salesy, sleazy, scammy copy that is way too pushy. And for good reason. Right. There's so much of that in the coaching space. It's like, if you don't book with me right now, then like, you're not ready to evolve. My, my rule is let's not make people feel bad for not doing the thing. Do the thing. There is that element of risk and loss, that anxiety that you do need to push people sometimes. But that's not my main focus. And I kind of wish that it wasn't other copywriters main focus. But a lot of like, classic direct response sales copy is written that way. I understand the concern. You do have to agitate a little bit. And usually the way that we do that is something through future pace. There's something called future pacing. So five years from now, you know, did you make this choice? Where are you? Are you still working your same job that you hate? Are you still struggling with this issue? Or have you taken a small step toward evolving or whatever that thing is? Like, help them do what human brains are not naturally good at doing, which is think about the future.

That makes sense. Yeah. If someone, if someone doesn't perceive, you know, the problem as a significant problem or the goal is something that's worthwhile, they're obviously not going to put in the work or make the, you know, financial investment to do it. So I almost see it as like, I think if it's more palatable for people to think of that agitation, almost as like active empathy, like being like, all right, right now, let's say, let's say it's a, like a weight loss product. And it's like, all right, right now, like, you want to lose. You want to lose a few pounds, whatever. That's the main thing. But it could be like, there's also something to like the person that you'd be excited to become if, like, you really, like, stuck to something, gotten really great shape and how good that would feel like that's going to be almost a bigger benefit than just talking about, like, you want to lose a few pounds. Our product helps you do that.

By now, it's not that you want to lose a few pounds. It's that you want to be a person who can successfully lose a few pounds.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think that language of transformation almost has its own separate vocabulary in the coaching space, transformation being one of those keywords. And it is a good. A good thing to point out that if you can't really promise outcomes, like specific outcomes like, I'll grow your business by X percent in six months, you can hopefully potentially promise emotional outcomes like that. Like, regardless of whether your business doubles over the next six months, you will feel more confident that you are the person who can be running this. That business of that size or whatever it is.

Yeah. I feel that that's something that people get really hung up on in my audiences when they have a less tangible niche, and then they're like, all right, well, that's. This is fine for you to say if you're helping people get clients or make more money. Yeah, but what about me? I'm helping with something that's very internal mindset. So how do I really speak to something that's an outcome or something that's tangible when it's not tangible?

Yeah. That's where I go back to customer research and I say, like, okay, clearly there's something about your personality that is making people choose you. Have you asked those people what made you trust me, what brought you to me, but what made you feel like I was the right one for you? And they will come back with, oh, we had this conversation about this thing, and the way you spoke about it made me feel, like, less judged or encouraged or whatever. Those are the kinds of insights that then go into your copy. It's like, if you're looking for someone who helps you feel accountable but not judged, that's me. Like, I walk that line with you. Taking those little nuggets from your customer research and pointing to those sort of emotional intangibles. It's really hard to do, but it is totally possible.

That makes sense. Yeah. I feel like using the words of your clients is just. It's key. Okay, so we've gotten some good. Like, I think that's another good general copywriting principle. What else do you do? You even have, like, a checklist for yourself. Like, when you go to write a sales page, you're like, all right, make sure I hit these things. Or it's not done.

I do from more of a conversion standpoint. So, like, is design supporting the copy in a way that the copy is really easy to parse, or am I adding extra work for people making their eyes tired? So simple things like, do I have sections with clearly labeled headers that are descriptive, so if I stand back from the page, do I still know what the page is about? That kind of thing. Like, are her buttons easy to see? Do they have enough white space? What are my visuals? That kind of thing. Checklist wise. One thing that I wish more people would do, and this is across industries, is use social proof like testimonials. If you're a coach, use those next to the claim in the copy that they support. So if you have someone talking about like what made them go looking for a coach, that would probably be near the section of your copy where you're like talking about their problems. Right. If you have someone talking about how great their results have been, that's probably lower down the page, near to where you talk about what you can help them achieve. Don't just lump all of your testimonials into one section because a large proportion of people won't even get to that section. Instead, use them where they will do the most work.

That's so good. I'm so excited about that tip because it makes so much sense. And then also when you have like the testimonial section, like between the two calls to action, it's like it just ends up to be a lot. So you're asking a lot of like for them to digest multiple testimonials there. That makes a ton of sense to place them throughout. But in a place where you're making a claim.

Yeah, it's like letting your people tell your story for you. You know, we'd always rather look at what someone says about you than what you say about yourself.

How do you feel about video sales letters? And I asked because I had been doing like, I just been doing written sales pages for my course launches for. For multiple launches. And it worked pretty well. And then I did like kind of like three video launch with, you know, video at the end as the sales page with the button. And that thing did not get signups. It did not get signups. And that was also a new format for me. So it's not to say video can't convert, but do you ever. I mean, you're a copywriter, so you're not necessarily like probably doing as much of this. But what are your thoughts on selling via video versus via written words.

So I think VSLs video sales letters are kind of the domain of that like direct response copywriter who gets paid in royalties, you know, to beat the control of this like financial product or supplement. Neither of which are my niche really. So I haven't written a ton of them. I've written a couple sales pages based on VSLs selling with video. Super possible. If you are charismatic enough. I think like if the product is good, if the offer is good, if you seem trustworthy, then it can totally work. But I see that happening more on like live webinars or social media.

Webinars.

Yeah. Like where you're giving some kind of value while you're on video, not just talking or saying the same script that's on the page. I do think in the coaching niche, having video is more important than in other niches because it really does come down to like, do I like this person's face and the way that their voice sounds and do I trust them? And that's a good shortcut to deciding if you can trust.

Yeah, yeah. Do I really want to be on zoom looking at this dude, you know, twice a month? So yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Okay. Any other common mistakes that you see when people go to write copy, write a sales page, write emails to their list?

Again, we don't have time for all of these. But the like formatting, going back to formatting. Stop centering your body copy. I want to just like grab people and shake them. Like if you're writing a sales page and you have body copy, it should be left aligned in a centered column. The column width should be no wider than 600 pixels. That is so that when I'm on my desktop and I'm in my browser and I'm reading back and forth, my eyes don't have to go like this. And if you have your copy centered, the lines don't start at the same place. So I have to like. It's so much visual fatigue and it makes your message really hard to understand. So that's the biggest change you can make right now. Go left. Align any copy that's longer than like two sentences.

Love that. Yeah, yeah. And that the thing I immediately think of with that is just text size in general.

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

You know what I mean?

Is your best friend 16 point minimum. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think, I mean the design, I don't necessarily. I'm curious what your take on this. Like, I don't think, you know, design is not going to sell your product, but terrible design on your sales page could Just have people bounce and not, not read the message.

I think the, the worse your design is, the stronger your copy has to be. You can obviously sell an amazing product with just a Google Doc, or you can sell your personality with just a Google Doc. But yeah, even if you have the best website in the world and your inauthenticity is coming through or the product's not clear, the offer is not clear, you're not going to sell.

Hmm. I'm curious because a lot of people who are watching this, I know one thing coaches struggle with, especially early on and other kind of service based business owners, consultants struggle with finding their niche, their place in the market that's unique and uses kind of a lot of them. I think sometimes people put too much burden on the business. They're like, it has to involve all of, all of my hobbies, must be in my brand now. But I really love that you have this comedy side of you that you've brought into converging copywriting, especially because, like, people pay for. I mean, not people obviously pay for comedy as well, but like people pay for copywriters. Like, it's just a thing people buy because it helps them make more money. And I think coaches, like, could sometimes do a better job being like, how do I not sell coaching, but sell money, but do it in a way that brings in my, my gifts? And so how did you even find this conversion convergence of like copy and comedy that seemed like, so right for you?

Oh, man. I was just doing improv and stand up and I joined the Copywriter Mastermind, the first iteration of that with Joanna Weeb. And I was like, I wish there were some way to combine this thing that I love so much with this job that feels like putting on a mask every day and, you know, writing like Dear sir and or Madam, which I wasn't doing, but like, definitely felt like I was playing the role of the successful business person in my inbox and then like going off and being a carrot on stage. And Joanna was like, why don't you just do that? And I was like, whoa, man. So I don't know, it's. I think we get into questions of brand there, like, what do you want to be remembered for? And it can be really simple. I have a bookkeeping friend. She is actually a mindset coach for bookkeepers and accountants. And her thing is like her cats. So instantly I was like, oh, I love this girl. But, like, cats are also my thing. You can bring your thing in in a way that makes you memorable and is not your Whole business. I think between three to five of those unique characteristics that you mention often in your content makes you like, oh, that's the coach who does this thing. I remember because he plays tennis all the time. Yeah. Does that. It was kind of a roundabout answer.

Yeah. I feel like. Yeah. So bringing in certain hobbies, even if they're not super related to what you do, will help fill you out as a human. The same way comedy will help, like, create that rapport. And I think one of the things I take away from you is you're just like, look, I had the right mentor or right person at the right time to kind of like be outside of me and just point out, like, oh, we'll just combine them. And I think that is often how people find that niche for them is they're like, oh, I have these different things. And someone's like, all right, just do both of them. Or here's what it would look like.

Yeah. And. Or do that process of again, talking to your clients or self examining and asking, where do I think I can be most helpful? What lights me up about, you know, this or that or providing value in this way? And then don't be afraid to explicitly say, I coach these people to do this thing. I. I think the riches are in the niches. I. I would much rather work with a very focused coach to do a certain thing than a generalist coach who, like, may or may not help me become a better version of myself in some way. Unquantifiable way.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think a great example too of that is the retreat where we met. So, like, Susan Piver had a retreat which was like the Buddhist Enneagram, based on a book he wrote that combined meditation and Buddhism with Enneagram, which is this personality typing system that I'm really into. It's like, okay, those are the two things that have made the biggest difference in my life. So of course I'm going to go to this retreat. Now. It may not be a, you know, 100,000 person retreat because it's a niche, but it's fine. You charge enough and it's worth everyone's time and you go and you do it.

So, yeah, like, to be the only person who does this thing or to be the one who's known the most for doing that. I sort of lucked out because I think I've had the top spot on the search rankings for funny copywriter for a few years now. And I'm like, oh, you can come and take it away from me because I Never blog anymore. But please don't. But I kind of lucked into that. But there are so many other spaces if, you know, if you can find that Venn diagram of like what I enjoy and what people will pay for and like claim that. Claim this little weird thing in the middle.

For sure. Do you know of any. It's okay if the answer is just like no. Do you know of any copywriting type philosophies that actually speak to different personality types? And it might not be enneagram, it might be something else, but sort of like you want to write, you have, want to have one email. Because I've heard before people saying, like, have an email that speaks to the very analytical decision making process. Have an email that speaks to the very emotional decision making process. So I'm not sure if you ever think about that in sales letters or emails. Like, I'm speaking to different personalities in this copy.

Not so much. Not so much different personalities. The closest thing that makes me think of is stages of awareness. Should we, should we quickly.

Yeah, let's talk about that. I think that's helpful for people.

Okay, so Eugene Schwartz is like one of the OG copywriters and he wrote about this. And so basically there are stages of awareness that people can have about you or your service, ranging from totally unaware to super most aware. Like knowing that you exist, thinking about buying from you, and you need to think about the types of information that people need at different points in that process to get them from unaware to most aware. So like unaware and they, it's, it's hard because they don't even know they have a problem. Right. So you're probably writing content around like what if you're struggling with this thing? And that's very much in the top of funnel. That's where content lives, that's where SEO lives, that's where social media lives. Then there's somewhat aware. They're like, oh, I do have a problem, but they're not ready to like look for stuff to fix it. Then there is a product aware. I'm messing all of this up. But there's like five stages. Basically they come to be aware that they have an issue, that there are ways to solve it, that you are one of the ways they could solve it. And then they find you.

Yeah.

So I write to those stages trying to give them just the information they need. The sales page for each of those stages is going to be like much longer up here because you have to do all the work of education around. Like you have this problem here's. What it looks like, here's how to recognize it, here's why it's so terrible, here's what you can do about it. And then they're going to go away and like do some more research for a while or they might get on your email list. But like when they're down here, they're so ready to buy, all you have to do is get out of their way. So it's a very short page that's like, yep, save my spot. Does that make sense?

Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. So we just, a colleague and I just launched a 12 week group program called Weeks that work. And it's basically like both of us have taught marketing and sales for a while and what we noticed was that people would learn the marketing and sales. But then as an entrepreneur you still have to go execute it. Like you still have to know like when in my week am I doing this? And you have to be consistent with a marketing strategy until you get traction with it. And so we were envisioning this sort of productivity, high performance, time management type program, but we were like, I don't know if people are actually thinking that that's the problem. We know people want just to get clients. We know that that sells. We had to spend a lot more time on the sales page at the front end being like, if you want next year to be your most profitable year, here's what's happening, here's what would need to change. And then introducing like, okay, that's what this thing does.

Yeah.

And it, it did ultimately, like we, we've had great registrations with it, but I think if we didn't frame the problem for people who are problem unaware up front, it wouldn't have sold as much.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Like I tend to go very directly to the psychology because I think everyone's interested in how their own brains work. And so a lot of the stuff that I write especially for recent client is around like this is how your brain works. It's tricking you in these ways. Here's how what we've built helps you untrick your brain or get around that. And so for me, I would probably have written that page being like, you're afraid of doing this. You don't know it yet, but accountability will help you get around the fear and like build some momentum. And that's why we've built this program to help you sit down and ship it.

I like that. It makes sense. Cool. Anything else people should know? This is a very broad question. Anything else people should know about why their copy might not be converting. Like, if they just. This isn't working. The sales page isn't working. Like, where's the first. Where are the first things they should look at?

I would look at the offer honestly. Is there any confusion in the offer? Because people won't tell you. They'll just sort of slip away. That's assuming that you are. Your sales page is asking them to do something. But yeah, usually to me that comes back to like, product market fit. Like, did you actually build something that people want or did you just build it because you thought it was cool?

Yeah, that's a good. I think that's a good distinction is like, if something's selling but you want it to sell better, then there may be some improvements in the copy. If something's just not selling, like, probably people don't want it, at least in the way it's currently conceptualized. Or you'd at least be getting some people who are like, look, this sales page sucks, but I still want the things, I'm gonna buy it.

Yeah. Like, if the product is actually. If the, if the problem they're trying to solve is actually worth solving, that's one thing. But if you're solving a problem that no one cares about, like, that's probably.

Not the way I think it. It might have been. Maybe it's just because you mentioned Eugene Source. I don't know if this is his quote, but there was some sort of like, old school advertising person who is like, look, let's be honest. We can't create demand with any of this stuff that we're advertising for. We can only take something that has a lot of, like, you know, kind of burning desire for something and we can channel it to our, to our thing, you know, but we can't, we can't make someone want something that they don't want.

Yeah, I'm sure that was like Ogilvy for someone. I don't know.

It may have been the, the last thing I'm curious about that I want your take on is headlines. Because my, my take has always been like, you're not going to spend the same amount of time on each part of your copy. And I'm. I always spend a lot of my time on the headline just with the assumption that if people don't get through that, if it doesn't hook them, I don't get an opportunity for the rest of the co. Is that how you see it or do you see it slightly differently? Like, what's the importance that you put.

On a headline, definitely super important because you're right, if they don't read the headline, they won't read the next thing. Like every sentence's job is to get you to the next sentence. So every sentence has to earn its keep. Headlines in particular, I think of them more as sort of markers that should tell the bare bones of the story down the page. So again, if you back away from three feet and read just the headlines or the crossheads, do you know what the page is about? Do you know the story that it's telling?

You.

Can be hard when you have like more conversational headlines. Like you might be having this problem and then there's a body copy that talks about the problem. Then the next headline is. But are you doing anything about it? Well, you haven't told me what the problem is in the headline. So I think specificity and then using a little bit of that like almost clickbaity style approach where it's like, this is interesting enough that I'm going to read the next thing. Like, how would you write your. Huh?

Like just curiosity.

Yeah, curiosity. Opening that loop, making them need to read what's coming next, but also previewing what's in that section so that they get a sense of like they can just skim the headlines and know what the offer is.

Yeah, that makes sense. So like having. Having your sort of logic or your argument or your outline be represented by those headings. Did you say crossheads? Well, I've never heard that term.

Oh yeah, I think Joanna Weep says cross heads or cross headers. Sometimes just headlines.

Is that like a sub headline?

Like a what?

Is that like a sub headline or.

Like your main. You have your main hero headline in the hero section. Then you have your crossheads down the page, like side to side. I don't know, I think just means sub headline.

Got it? Yeah. I often find that like writing headlines, especially the main one at the top of a page or a subject line. It's tricky because to create that curiosity, there's sort of a balance between. You have to be specific enough but also vague enough to create the curiosity. So, yeah, I don't know, do you have formulas that you use for headlines or just ways that you think about it that help you generate some ideas that you choose between?

A lot of the time I just do a placeholder headline until I write that section and then I see like what piece of the section is most interesting and can I turn that into. Yeah, so I'll just, I'll write like headline about this thing and then I'll go write the body copy, and maybe I'll come up with a cool metaphor in the body copy, and then I'll be like, you know, the trap of blah, blah, blah.

Ooh, that makes sense. That. Yeah, I've found that too. When I review copy for clients, usually there's a part that's interesting, but it's like, I don't know, a third of the way in, I'm like, this is the interesting part. So sometimes it's like, pull that up for the headline. And sometimes I'm just like, like, just start here. Cut everything above that copywriting trick.

Right. And same for, like, screenwriting. Like, we tend to sort of warm up until we get to the interesting thing. And so if you just cut all the preamble after you write that, like, boom, you're in medias rest, you're in the action, and then you might find in there.

Love it. Awesome. Liana, thank you for these tips. They were fire. They were so good. And where should people go next? I think it probably depends on who's watching it. There's potential clients, probably there's other coaches who just want to get better at copy. What's a good next step for people?

They can hang out with me@punchlinecopy.com or if they're on TikTok. I'm starting a TikTok. Oh, my God. At Punchline Copy. And I'm doing like one minute to 30 second copy critiques, so that'll help you get better at.

That's fun. That's cool.

And I actually don't write for coaches most of the time. I will take a few exceptions here and there, but if they want to find a copywriter, I know all the best ones. That's my terrible double probe impression.

Tremendous ones. Amazing. So good. The best. Awesome. Thank you so much. This was great.

Thank you.

All right, talk soon.