143. The Power of Storytelling with Sun Yi

Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Influency podcast. I'm Hadar, and this is episode number 143. Today we are going to have a conversation about authenticity with my friend, Sun Yee. Hey, everyone. Welcome back. And thank you so much, so much for tuning in for another episode of the Influency podcast. I noticed that when I recorded the intro, what you heard at the beginning of the podcast, I said, influency. Have you noticed it? So it sounded more like an M. And the reason why that happened is because it was a combination of the N in and then the F. I had to bring my teeth to touch the bottom lips in fluency, and I kind of merged the two sounds so it ended up sounding like influency, only I brought my teeth to touch my bottom lip. Im. Im. But it still sounds like an M in fluency. It can happen in words like in front of the house. In front of the house. That was my bottom lip touching my teeth for the M sound. So it's not a real N. In front of the house. In front of the house. It's funny how our mouth is always anticipating the sounds that are about to be pronounced. And we're changing them a bit, and that is okay.

Anyway, back to today's topic.

Today we're gonna listen to an episode from the live English show that I recorded a few months ago. And it was such a great episode. Not because of me, because of my guest. His name is Sun Yee. He is. I mean, there is so much that I can say about him. But let's begin with the fact that he is the founder and manager of Night Owls, which is a digital branding agency. So he helps with entrepreneurs and businesses to build a brand online. And he is also curating an incredible Instagram account where he really teaches and talks about how to tell stories and how to be authentic and how to be an authentic storyteller, which is what our conversation is mainly about. Sun has also moved to the US From Korea when he was nine, I think, and he also talks about his experience immersing in a new culture, in a new country, in a new language, and how that has affected his experience becoming the person that he is, not just in English, in business, and in life. So let's not wait any longer, and let's listen to our conversation.

Welcome, Sun Yee.

Yay. So, hi, everyone. My name is Sun. I own a digital branding agency in New York City. I work with a lot of personal brands like Gabby Bernstein, Mel Robbins, Jay Shetty. We primarily do websites and also brand messaging. So we help our clients, mostly personal brands, tell their story. A lot of them have kind of a great story, but they're not really good at, like, kind of organizing and delivering it in a simple way that people can resonate with. So that's kind of what I help them with. And I also have an Instagram account where I kind of teach about storytelling. I talk about being authentic in your storytelling, and that's about it.

You know, a lot of the audience watching this are people who are. You know, one of their biggest things that they deal with is how to find the balance between who you are in your native language and who you are as a speaker, as a second language, and that ideal that people place. And, you know, I shared a video on Instagram the other day about you speaking like people are trying to sound like everyone else. There is, like, that the group of people, the predominant group of people who have a certain voice, and then we try to assimilate so we are not perceived as different. So I'd love for you to talk about that a little bit, in case you haven't just yet.

So a lot of people actually tell me that I have, like, this Korean LA accent, which I don't hear it myself because I feel like I just sound like everyone else. But, yeah, people can. When I talk to people, they can definitely tell that I have an accent, even though, like, now English is kind of like my first language. English was my second language when I first moved here.

And when was that?

So I moved here when I was 11 years old. So I was young, so I learned pretty quickly. But I had a really. I had a really thick Korean accent all the way up until I went to college. And when I was in college, most of my friends in high school and junior high were Korean, so I spoke a lot of Korean. But when I went to college, there were no Koreans there, so I pretty much just spoke English. And that's. I guess I lost some of the accent there. But, I mean, I think all throughout my life, I always, like, try to imitate people. If I see a celebrity that I like, I'll, like, practice talking like them or, like, if there's some cool guy in the. In school that I think talks cool, I'll try to sound like them.

And, yeah, I love that because sometimes I feel like I don't do it intentionally, right? Like, sometimes if I listen to the same person, sometimes I get obsessed with a certain speaker, right? So I would listen to a bunch of podcasts that they have or shows, and all of a sudden I would be speaking, I'd be like, wait, I sound that intonation pattern. I think it's even subconscious. Like, you don't even think about it, and all of a sudden you start sounding like them.

Yeah, yeah, I do that too, because you just kind of admire them. And I guess it just naturally happens. I think all the way up Until I was 30 years old, I was like that. That was like 10 years ago. And, you know, at a certain point, you stop caring. You start caring about how you sound, how you look and all of that. So I just started, like talking myself. And now I feel like, you know, when I make a lot of videos and I have a podcast and people always tell me now they're like, son, I love the way you talk, or something like that. It's so unique. I don't know that I'm just talking like me, right? And I'm sure it's like a combination of a lot of different people that kind of inspired me or something over the time, over the years.

And how do you think generally about the fact that people need to label you or categorize you? The moment they hear you speak, they think that, like, oh, okay, so I know that because I feel that especially when I first moved to the US And I had a more present non native accent, Israeli accent, people would always have that need to be like, wait, are you from here? Are you from that? Like, to place you somewhere? Because it kind of like, it doesn't fit. Did that ever bother you?

Yeah. So they still do it now. I mean, with you, they might look at you and be like, oh, if you don't have an accent, they might think you're just from American. But with me, it's kind of obvious that I'm not American.

You are American. You know, like, that's the thing also. It's just, you know, even the self identification. But, yeah, I get what you mean. Yeah, yeah.

So, yeah, that's what they do, right? They're like, where are you from? If I say I'm Korean, they'll say something, oh, I love kimchi, or I love Korean barbecue or something like that. And that used to bother me because it's like they're kind of jumping to a conclusion or something about me that they don't know because I'm actually really very American now. I don't eat a lot of Korean food, but over time I kind of noticed that, like, they do it because they want to connect. They're not doing it to offend me or anything. Like that they're doing it because they. They want to be relatable and they're being friendly. So now it doesn't really bother me anymore.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's like a good topic for conversation. However, I think, you know, that's the best approach. But sometimes people find it as if it's some sort of, like, criticism against their. Maybe their English is not good enough, or, like, it's a statement, oh, you don't sound like us. You know, Whereas I agree with you in many cases, it's just another way. It's like, you know, talking about your shoes or talking about the weather. But at the same time, like you said, sometimes it is, you know, it feels a little intrusive where it puts you in a certain place that you don't want to be. Because, like, you know, I'm. I was born here. I know of many people who were born in the US they just grew up in a family that spoke a different language, so they picked up on different sounds or they had something. And then they keep getting asked in their own country and their own, like, you know, all the time, where are you from? It's like, I was born here, you know, so it's really interesting how it's the first thing that people hear and they need to identify and it's like, to know your story. You know, speaking of stories, like, people are intrigued in other people's stories, right?

Yeah. It's actually now maybe, like, I came here in the 90s, so maybe, like, at that time, there was a little bit of, like, stigma. Like, they kind of, you know, when you don't speak English, Right. Because someone might not speak English that well, but they might be, like, a genius. Right? But just because they don't speak English, they almost treat, like, they treat you like a child or something like that. But now I feel like it's. That stigma is pretty much gone. At least, like, where I live, people actually think it's cool when you have an accent. They're like, ooh, fancy. You know what I mean?

Right. I love that. And I think, like, this is the story. Speaking of story, like, we need to tell ourselves because it's also the internal story. Like, if. If our story is, you know, having an accent means that I'm not, as, you know, I'm not going to succeed, or I have all these things that are blocking me, of course it's going to kind of like, manifest itself. But if it's just people are interested in me and my story, I'm unique. I think you show up differently to the conversation or I do think that there is still a lot of judgment and discrimination, like, from what I hear, probably in New York less, because it's such a cosmopolitan city. And now that kind of. Like, we talked about the language. Tell us about what it is that you do and how that relates to storytelling. Because just to let people know why I'm so intrigued by it, because you know what you do, and we had a few conversations about that has so much with what I do in terms of languages and teaching and confidence. And you do something else. Like, you are in advertising and branding and storytelling. Right. Like in business. And we saw so many parallel lines. And I'd love to talk a little bit about that. So maybe just in general, you do.

Yeah. So I used to work with kind of corporate brands. So I used to work with clients like American Red Cross, Columbia University, like Spotify. But, like, for the last five or six years, I've been working with a lot of personal brands. And I started learning. I went to film school, like, 10 years ago, so I kind of learned some screenwriting, storytelling there, but I didn't really use it. And then I started learning copywriting about five years ago, and I kind of merged the two together. And for the past three years or so, people have been coming to me to help them kind of define their story. And in my work, why story is so important is because for personal brands, when somebody is a big part of what I do has to do with, like, being authentic. So my job actually, 90% of my job is actually doing two things. It's one, getting them to simplify, because when everyone tells a story, they're over telling a story. They want to include all the details. So I have to, like, trim a lot of things out of the story. And two, is to help them to be vulnerable and authentic, because that's the part that a lot of personal brands struggle with.

How do you define authentic? And by the way, you have, like, a podcast called Authentic as Fuck. But how do you define authentication?

So here's how I define it. So I think there's three stages of authenticity, in my opinion. The first stage is people that are not authentic. So this is when I was in high school and college, when I was younger. That was me. People that are not authentic, and they know they're not, so they kind of use this line, like, fake it till you make it. I know that I'm not being authentic. I know that I'm trying to come off cooler than cool in front of people. I'm trying to appear cool. And then I think kind of when you get a little bit older, when you think you're being authentic, there's the second phase where they say, oh, I don't give a what anyone thinks of me, right? And I call that like the fake authentic. Because reality is everybody cares what other people think of them, but they hide behind this mask of like, oh, I'm tough, I don't really care. They go through that stage, but at that stage we still think we're authentic. Like, oh, I'm so authentic. And then finally the real authenticity comes when you are afraid, you are vulnerable, you are scared of what people think, how they're going to judge you, but you say it anyway. And that's the part that I'm trying to get my clients to, right? Because it's not authentic when somebody says somebody's trying to be vulnerable. And like, you know, you see a lot of celebrities do this. They're like really skinny and they're really fit, but they're like, I'm such a pig, I eat anything I want. Something like that. That's really not vulnerability. That's actually humble bragging. But a real authenticity is like something that really like before you say it, you feel a little uncomfortable. The more uncomfortable it is, the more authentic it is.

I love it. It's like that's your measure, right? Like, you know, it's kind of like a authentic meter, Authenticity meter, right? Like that you have internally like awkward and like the more cringe worthy it is, maybe like cringe like you don't you feel uncomfortable or you have resistance, the more authentic you are. I love it so much. And you know, I always talk about speaking English, not sounding like a native, but speaking and feeling authentic. And I think what you said really, really reflects that idea because you know, faking it or not speaking because you're afraid of making mistakes. So it all looks perfect, right? And only if you write. You know, we have a community in our Facebook group, a Facebook group community where we use videos. So like on one hand you can make like a ton of video, which is great because it's a form of practice, but like, you want to get it right. So God forbid, like you're not messing up or you're not making mistakes versus, you know, just going live and letting yourself be and letting yourself be vulnerable and get stuck and like not try to hide it because it's part of everyone's process and that even on video it's also, you know, when you speak to people because a lot of times People will not speak in meetings because they don't know how to finish the sentence or they don't want to make mistakes or sound weird in their opinion. Whereas being authentic in a language is just, you know, speaking. And let communication do the work. Right? Let the story that you want to convey or to tell or the message or you need to get something out of the other person. Yeah, I love it.

That was me in the meetings not speaking. I was always the guy that goes in to say hello and then say bye at the end, but in the meeting, and it really held me back in my career.

What was holding you back from speaking? Can you talk about that?

Yeah, I always saw my. I think until a certain age, I always saw myself as a foreigner, right? Like, I'm not American. So I felt like everything that I said, I'm saying it wrong. Like now I say things wrong all the time. I mispronounce things, I use wrong words, I make mistakes all the time, and I really don't care. But also what resonates with me, what you were saying is when I was growing up, so in my school, there were some Koreans and some Chinese kids. And what I noticed is Chinese kids learn a lot faster than Koreans. And it's because Koreans, like, by culture, we have this thing where we have to, like, appear cool. Like, we, we have a lot of pride. And so they don't speak because they don't want to sound stupid or something like that. Whereas in like, the Chinese kids didn't care at all. They'll just speak, like, even if it's wrong, even if they. Nobody knows what they're talking about. Even if people are like, what? What? Like they'll just speak, right? And therefore they learn so much faster than the Korean kids. So I totally, like, resonate with that.

Yeah, no, like, what you're saying is exactly the example of like, trying to keep a facade and then, you know, or waiting to speak until everything's perfect. But the one thing, the one thing that is going to help you to get to where you want to be is actually doing the thing that you avoid. Because it's like such a catch 22. And I didn't know. It's so interesting to hear that, like, from your perspective, having that experience, because I usually see, you know, the grown ups with, like my students and my followers, they were the grown ups and then, you know, to hear the story. Okay, so all of that experience got you to feel incompetent or maybe like less worthy in meetings, or maybe your voice did not matter. So much is that.

Yeah. And I was also kind of. I'm a super introvert. You wouldn't notice that. But that I was also shy, so I didn't really speak up. And so many times. There were times that I wanted to speak up. Right. But in my head, I would be like, okay, I should say this. And I just think about it, overthink it in my head over and over, and like, 10 minutes have passed by now it's too late to bring it up.

So, yeah, this is exactly what happens. Or is that relevant? Or. Yeah, just to get it right. Like, how am I going to say it exactly, and then it's no longer relevant.

Meeting.

Right. And how did that hold you back in your career?

Yeah, it held me back because there were so many things where I wanted to. If somebody says, brings up an idea and I'm like, that's actually not a good idea. I was afraid to say, like, not only because I'm. I'm opposing that idea, but also because, like, I'm afraid of people that going like, oh, what do you know, son? Right. But then three months later, it'll turn out that I was right and if I did say it, I would have gotten some sort of recognition for it. Right. So things like that happened a lot.

Yeah, this is exactly it. Like, you know that something is right and you hold yourself back. And that's like the worst experience because you let something like a language or fear of what other people might think of you, not even, like, stand in your way, in the way of your career, which it has, but it's like standing in the way of who you are. Right. Like, of how you show up in the world, you know, your authentic self.

Right.

Like, you truly said their opinion is more important than me speaking up, which is something that people hear. And put yes in the comments if you relate to that. Like, put. Say yes if. If you feel that that's the case. That a lot of times you're holding who you are back for the fear of not sounding right or for the fear of, you know, people judging your English. Right. Which is just like another language. Like, it's like the outfit that you.

Should wear when you're not being yourself. What also happens is it. It also affects your relationships, right? Because the reason why your friends love you is because you're 100 being yourself in front of them. Right. When at least when I was younger, I was growing up, like, whenever I try to act like someone else, whether I'm on a date or like, I'm with a new Group of friends or something like that. I was always like, oh, you know, my. My friends love me. How come, like, this girl doesn't like me or something like that? And it's because I'm not being myself. And when you're not being yourself, people can sense that. You know what I mean?

Yeah, exactly. And it's interesting. I don't know if we spoke about that or I saw, like, I recently started talking about that idea of. Okay, so on one hand, I'm kind of, like, challenging what you said, because on one hand, you're not being yourself, and that's the worst, because then people don't get to know you. You're not being yourself out of the fear. But at the same time, I also like this idea of, like, because we have different identities, right? We do have different. I'm with my friends, not the same as I'm with my parents, not the same as I'm with my team. I mean, there is the core. But, like, different facets of my personality are manifested for each identity. And I feel that the same way. Probably you feel that too, in languages, right? Like hadar in Hebrew. It's not exactly as hadar in English. Right. Do you feel that it's the same way?

Yeah, yeah. No, I'm totally like. I mean, I guess it's cultural. That's why I think when you know two languages, it's much more than just learning two languages. Because you actually learn, like, Korean people, the way they talk, their language, they actually think differently than Americans. And when you. When you can see, like, both sides of the perspective, I feel like just being bilingual is such, like, a huge advantage to your life. Not just in language, but learning how to think.

What do you mean by think differently? How do you think differently? I totally resonate with that. That I'd love for you to talk about that.

Yeah, I can't really pinpoint it, but, like, when I'm thinking in Korean and I'm speaking in Korean, I guess, for example, like, when I speak to older people, right. In Korea, there's, like, this huge respect. Kind of like, there's the honorific thing where I act differently when I'm talking to somebody older than I'm younger. But with Americans, I act the exact same way whether I'm talking to somebody younger or older. Right.

It's so interesting. It's like. It's so, like, the power of words. Right? The power of language. That's really brilliant. And. Okay, so let's. Let's start to tie it back to what you do now, which is, you know, like as a branding agency or advertising, you are telling the stories of the people who you represent, right. And you also encourage them to show up as authentic as possible. So how do you talk about authenticity or let's talk about authenticity in storytelling?

The reason why I kind of double down on authenticity and like my pockets is called authentic as is because a lot of people are like, oh, what is like storytelling? Have to do anything with it. But it has a lot to do with it. Because a lot of times when you tell a story, the things that people are going to relate to is in the details. So when you tell a fake story, a made up story, what happens is you leave out the details and you try to kind of give the high level gist of it. But where I learned this is I think three or four years ago I worked with Mel Robbins and I was watching all of her videos and she was on Impact Theory with Tom Bilyo and that video went viral. I think it's one of the most viewed video on, on his channel. And one of the things that she was saying is she was procrastinating. She couldn't wake up in the morning. She went really vulnerable. She said she could even get up in time to get her kids to school on time, right. And every night she would say, tomorrow is the day. Tomorrow I'm going to wake up in the morning, I'm going to go for a run and I'm going to change my life. And her restaurant was, her husband's restaurant was going through bankruptcy and she had all these financial issues and that kind of brought her down this spiral, right? So she says that and then seven hours later, like, where is that person? There's no motivation. She hits the snooze button. She sits there and with her eyes open just thinking about all the financial worries that she has. She draws like a picture of like she would go to the grocery store and come up with excuses that she's going to give if her credit card gets client or she would unplug all the phones in the house because every time the bank would call, like she would get anxiety attacks, right? So these are little details that draws a clear picture of what that looks like. And to say that, right. Just think about how vulnerable you have to be because that's like the perfect example of the vulnerability that I'm talking about where you're not humble bragging. These are actual things that's going to be hard for you to say in public. But when those stories are the ones when I Watch. It made me go, like, wow. Like, I can totally relate. I've been there. That's when I realized the power of vulnerability, authenticity, having details in the story.

And it's so true, because even if I never had that experience of unplugging all my phones, I know exactly what it means to get stressed out over a phone call because I had that experience. Right. Like, the moment you told that story, I had that anxiety. Like, I knew what she was feeling because I had that indifferent. Or it was so specific that I could visualize it even if I never. Like, I haven't experienced that, but I could have a very specific experience that is similar to that.

It's exactly what you said. Right. You might not have the same exact experience, but you can relate to it. Because maybe it was in the banks. Like, for me, it was in the banks, but it was like either my dad calling me or my, you know, when. When I. When I'm, like, trying to avoid him, or like, maybe my clients are calling me when I'm bleeding the deadline. So I can still relate to it in different ways. And that's why telling the details is so important, because you might be addicted to, like, potato chips, but this other person might not be addicted to potato chip, but they're addicted to coffee or ice cream or whatever it is. So it's actually important to add those details.

Yeah. Because anyway, when we listen to stories, we think about ourselves, right? Like, so we filter out your story through, like, our own experiences. And this is why, first of all, stories are important. And I think it's important to talk not just in the context of having a business, but when you communicate with people and you want to form deeper relationships. And I know that a lot of people here struggle with, you know, just, like, making those connections because of the fear of the language. I think that this is such a safe place to go to telling stories. Yesterday I went out for a run, you know, but instead, like, I went out for a run, even though I really wanted to stay in bed, but I went out, and then I saw my neighbor, and I really didn't want to talk to him, you know, and he started having this long conversation with me, and then it starts engaging because, like, oh, I know that feeling.

It immediately makes you, like, best friends. Because at this time, when I was talking to a new client, she came into the office, and we were talking about a project, and it just slipped out. I was like, oh, that's bullshit. Or something like that. Right. And then she started laughing, and then right away, as I'm like, oh, fuck. And she started laughing. Yeah. And it just broke the ice. Even though that was the first time we met, from that point on, we almost, like, became friends, right? It wasn't like a client vendor anymore. And, yeah, it just makes you an insider.

You know, I think for me, that was a long journey when it comes to authenticity and storytelling, Right? Like, if you look at my YouTube channel and you look at the first year of creating videos, they were very, very concise, right? Like, hi, it's Hadar. Blah, blah, blah. This is the lesson. Goodbye. Thank you. Like, hit, you know, subscribe, share. And not only that, like, I did not allow myself to come into the video. And I also. I was not comfortable in front of the camera. And the more. I think there was one turning point where I actually told my story for the first time. And talking about not being a native and the fears around that. And like you said, I'm showing up publicly. You know, people know me. I represent English for them sometimes. Well, that's like a big thing. Like, you know, I represent teacher English teaching. I make mistakes, right? Like, nothing about me is perfect. And I think that was, like, a big thing. Fear of mine. And that was the obstacle. But once I became more authentic, then the stories started coming in. And I was afraid to share stories because people are coming to learn a lesson, you know, or to learn something about English. Why do they need to hear my stories about this, this and that? And then I started, you know, noticing that that is when people started connecting with me. That is when people started, like, getting more to know me, being willing to hear what I have to say. Because it's not just like an English lesson. It's hadar talking about English or that's.

The big aha moment for me with Mel Robbins is that, like, when I look at certain people that I don't know their story, like, let's say Tony Robbins or someone like that, to me, like, I think of them as, like, oh, they're like, God, they're. They're on a different level. I can never be like that, right? I can never be. Whatever he's saying, whatever he's trying to teach, that will never work for me. It'll work for you, but it won't. That won't work for me, right? But when I hear Mel Robbins story or if I hear their actual story, I can relate to it. And I start saying, oh, she was just like me. So if she can do it, I can do it too. That's why you want to share their story, even if you're like, an authority figure, because it gives hope to the person that you're teaching.

Exactly. Like, when there is that image of perfection, it really does seem feasible. It seems like, okay, then maybe I can do it too. Exactly what you said. And what tip would you give people, you know, who want to start? So, again, like, going into this basic communication, start telling stories, right? Like, and people are afraid to make mistakes or to go into maybe talk too much. So all those negative thoughts that may prevent them. And instead, like, we are here encouraging people to give themselves permission to go into stories. But what tips would you give them as they're, like, trying to figure out what. How to do that?

Great question. So, for me, it took me a long time to get. So it didn't happen overnight, right? But I kept doing it, and I just kept speaking. So first I started just speaking a lot in English with people I know. Right. But recently what I discovered is, I love that you have them do videos, like, make videos. Because one of the things that when I started making videos for the first time, like, six months ago, when I edit them, I would be like. It was so cringy. Like, I was like, oh, I hate listening to myself. You know what I mean? But I just kept doing it. I kept posting it. And after, like, two or three months, I got so used to it that it didn't bother me anymore. I'm like, oh, that's just me. That's how I sound. Accept the fact. And, you know, people like it.

Yeah. And it's something that you do. It's not like you made a video. It's just you spoke and the camera was. It just happened to be on. Right. And by the way, for those of you who don't follow sun, go to Instagram. Sun E. Right. Y. I, like, go there because it's truly, like, the best Instagram account I've ever seen, especially when it comes to looking at how to tell stories. But, yeah, sorry, going back, so you have a bunch of videos there, and it seems very, very much like you didn't even know that the camera was on. You're just speaking. Right. But it's nice to hear that it wasn't. It wasn't easy at the beginning. Right? Like, it didn't start easy. And now you have people going crazy over your content, over your stories, and knowing that, you know, it's only a result of hard work and repetition. And we also talked about repetition. So that was a great tip. And now, like, you're also teaching people how to Tell stories on Instagram through, you know, carousels, like, using graphic design and stuff like that. And I'd love to talk because, you know, you talked about the fear of people doing it, because, you know, they don't know yet, so they're not even trying. So maybe, maybe you can talk about that and how you coach them into, like, get things done so it's related.

I'm also a perfectionist, so it took me a long time to, like, do it. And whatever it is that person that you were talking about, oh, I have to sound perfect. So I just practice in my head. That's me. So when I first got on Instagram, but I didn't think of it as, like, I tried to do a YouTube channel like, two years ago. And I try to make everything perfect and nobody's watching it, right? And then when I got on Instagram, I just started putting out bad content videos. Like, bad videos where I say a lot of like. Like this. Like, I just put them all out. And the more I did, and I even got to a point where I got a great tip from somebody that said, once you notice a mistake, like, if I make a carousel or if I post something and I see a spelling mistake or something like that, even if you catch it, post it anyway. Because getting into practice of that helps you actually get over perfectionism. And when you do it enough times, you're like, oh, it's not the end of the world. And you become more comfortable with just posting mistake and making mistakes in general.

Okay, I just want to copy paste it for a second. Or, like, take that, like, last 30 seconds. And I want you to say that again. You know, so you're saying that, okay, as a perfectionist, creating content, putting something out on Instagram, you know, one of the things that inhibited you was to find out that you've made a mistake. So you said that, like, one of the ways to deal with it is to notice the mistake and not to correct it, to post it anyway, even though you could, it would have taken you, like, 10 more minutes, 15 more minutes. But, like, the act of doing it anyway, knowing that you've made a mistake is the best way to overcome perfectionism, which is the one thing that is truly holding you back from getting what you want in life, probably, right?

Yeah, exactly. I see that as, like, the biggest, I guess, setback for almost everyone. Like, there's so many people that are, you know, like that whole decision. Paralysis by analysis, I guess they call it. They overthink it, and they don't post but that really gave me power because it's almost like muscle memory. The first time I do it, I'm like, post, right? And then every time I go back and I look at it, it's like, oh, there's that mistake, right? But then you do it, you know, you notice the mistake and you do it again, and you do it again and after a while, like, you don't even care anymore. Okay, I guess it's the mistake.

And what was the response of people?

Oh, nobody noticed it. Nobody noticed it, right?

Yesterday I was using one of your posts as an example too. I have a community of teachers, right? Like, and I told them, like, one of them was really struggling with a brand name. And then I said, you know, you can always start and change it or change the handle. No one's going to notice. And then I remembered one of your posts saying that like, for months you were thinking whether or not you should do everything like black and white or add color. And then one day you decided that you're going to add color and you added one emoji, like in yellow. And you're like, you know how many people noticed it? Zero.

Right?

And no one cares. No one cares about your mistakes. No one cares about your typos, no one cares about your spelling mistakes. First of all, they think about how they're going to come off if they understand you, right? Like, so they don't make any awkward responses that are not related to what you said. And really that's. People are looking for the message and the brain filters out a lot of information. So it's not like they've noticed and they haven't commented. In many of the cases they don't. Like, the brain does not even perceive it. The eye sees it, but the brain does not recognize it because it kind of like completes it in the like the proper same thing with grammar mistakes. So people are so self conscious about oh, I said hadn't instead of hasn't.

Even if it was a big thing that people notice. You know how celebrities will have like this scandal, right? And then like a week later, nobody even talks about it. Like, nobody even remembers it. Or the reason why that happens is because everybody is busy living their own life. Nobody's like, nobody cares about you. Everybody's focused on themselves. So even if it's like a huge mistake, let's say something as big as a scandal or something like that, don't worry, people are going to forget. So.

Yeah. And also, it's really interesting to think about yourself if you notice the mistakes that is probably one of the things that is also inhibiting you because you think that everyone notices those mistakes as you do, right?

So once in a while, like somebody will comment or DM me and say, hey, by the way, there's a mistake here. But they're not doing out of like, hey, look like you made a mistake, right? What they're doing is like, hey, just wanted to let you know. Because they're doing it because they care about me right there. And I'll just say, oh, thank you so much. And.

But how do you feel about it? Like, really feel? Are you appreciative or does it get you to be like, yeah, it's like.

Ah, you know, this person noticed it. And like, because, like, especially because I knew it too. But I think even that, that's muscle memory too. You get used to it after a while. I now I really do appreciate. I'm like, wow, this person cared enough to go out of their way to take a minute and send me a dm and exactly.

Like, there is a way around it. You know, I was talking about haters the other day or people who criticize you publicly. And there is a difference between someone sending you a DM telling you, hey, just wanted to let you know. And I've gotten those as well. Or someone like writing a comment on YouTube, you know, you said this instead of that, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, you know, okay, I get that too.

Yeah, I get those in the comments too. But those I just ignore because I think there are certain people that are just going to be like that no matter what. Like, no matter what you say. That's why I think it's important to dismiss it. Because just like you said before, when you do make a mistake and you make a big deal out of, becomes bigger. But when you make a mistake or like you said, apologize or something like that, if I said something wrong and immediately say, oh, yeah, I was wrong. Because a lot of people have that identity thing where, oh, if I believe in this and I say this and the next next year I change my mind. Like, they still feel the need to hold on to that identity because they've, they've said it and people are going to be like, but you said last year this. Right? But if you just say, if you could just.

That's a good point.

Yeah. If you just say, yeah, I was wrong last year and now I change my mind, there's nothing they can do. And that's, that's the power of authenticity. That's the power of honesty.

Right? Like, you know, not to hold on to, not ideas that people have about you or ideas that you have about yourself.

Right.

I think that, like being in constant evaluation, self evaluation about who you are, who you want to be, what your goals are, and then to change. Because, like, yeah, I said that I'm going to do this, and then a year in, you're like, I'm not enjoying my life, I'm not enjoying my business, where my career, like, no, but I said that I will, you know, so you're blocking yourself.

Yeah, you're blocking yourself from improving, actually.

You know, also, what is the biggest struggle that you see when people, even brands or business, people who try to tell a story, you know, because these are the people that you work with, it's going to be relevant for everyone. What are the biggest challenges that people face when it comes to telling a story?

Yeah, those two things that I mentioned earlier, when it comes to storytelling, they just want to write a whole book. Right. So in branding, what happens is the way your brand is going to spread is when other people talk about you because you don't have the manpower to talk about you, like, to everyone. Right. What happens is other people have to talk about you, then tell your story for you. But if your story is too complicated, it's like the difference between, you know, if like Chris Rock or Dave Chappelle try to do a joke, it's only funny if they deliver it. Like, nobody else can tell that joke like that. Right. But then there are certain jokes. The joke itself is so good, it's simple and has a punchline. It's so well written that anybody can tell the joke and it's so funny. Right? So that's how you want the story to be, so that anybody can tell your story. And it's so good, and otherwise you're gonna have to tell it every time.

And it's also a great way to stay memorable, right? Like, for people to remember you. They might not remember your name, but they'll remember the story that you've told.

Right.

If it's something that can. It's kind of like you can tell in one breath, right? Like, I'm thinking one thought. Yeah, like a punchline. Right.

One example I give is, like, there's this show, I don't know if it's on Netflix, but it's called Cosmos. It's with Neil DeGrasse Tyson. It's like all about the Universe and stuff like that. And when I watch that show, I'm like, I'm so fascinated by it. And it makes perfect sense when he says it. Right? And then as soon as I try to tell it to a friend, try to explain the show to them, like halfway into it, I'm like, oh, you just got to watch it, because I can't do it as well as him. And, you know, that's so important in brands. That's so important.

Yeah. Even ideas. Like, sometimes I hear something from, you know, a coach or a thought leader, and I'm like, I can relate the idea or the story, but if I feel like you really need to get the experience, you gotta go watch it yourself. Yeah, I totally. I totally get that.

The second part is the authenticity. Very, very few people actually are vulnerable enough to really fully put themselves out there. And what I noticed is that, like, our biggest clients, the ones that you would think that, you know, they have, like a different Persona on camera versus not, are actually the ones that are, like, exactly the same on or off camera. And some of our smaller clients are the ones that have to have the perfect makeup, the perfect set, perfect lighting, and they have a different on camera Persona versus off camera. So that authenticity, I think, is another important factor.

Okay, so understanding how to tell a story in a concise way. Not like to overdo it, but go into the specifics. Right. Or I think what you said is just the fact that it's real is already going to have the right details in it. Right.

So what a lot of people do is they tell, like, story in a linear way. Because when you tell an entire story of my life. Right. Not all of that is going to matter to that audience. So what I do is I. I talk about the lesson, the takeaway at the end. Right. What is the core message that I want to say at the end? And then I only pick out the. The situation that relates to that, and I just cut everything out. But then when that situation, I'm detailed. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Which again, like, I think for examples, you should check out your account because basically what you've been doing is you've been telling stories in a form of a sequence. So it's not like a story as we know it, like a post where you tell a story, but you're doing it in a carousel on Instagram, which is like, you see one slide, then you're curious about the next one, and you're moving. I mean, what is the benefit of doing it that way?

So I love doing those carousels because you're right, they're not like a typical story. How you tell a story, but I think it captures people's attention. You can get a message across because it's 10 slides. It's almost like a PowerPoint presentation. And it's not an actual story, but there's storytelling elements in it. So one of the things that I do is I always have the takeaway in the last slide. What is the actual lesson? And then I work backwards. And all of my stories always try to include example, like an actual example of that that supports that lesson. For example, if I say one of them, I say, oh, what's the importance of, like, having a perfect grid on Instagram? Right? And at the end, the lesson is that don't worry about the perfect grid, because it's going to stop you from posting. Because you know it's okay if your grid is messy. Don't let it stop you from posting. That's the final takeaway. And then the example I give is I put, like, these huge accounts, like Gary Vee or someone like that, examples of them, and they're all like ugly grids, right? So that's an example. And then another storytelling element is the hook, what's going to get their attention, which is the first cover and then the turning point. So I always start out saying, so that's that carousel. I said, hey, every marketer knows the importance of a beautiful grid. Just take a look at these beautiful grids. And then, boom, I go into the ugly grids example, and then the last slide says, don't let you know. Ugly grid, stop you from posting.

It's kind of like you're leading them in one direction and they're already assuming that you're going to take them somewhere, and then you show them the examples of the other, like the exact opposite, which leads you to your main point. I love that. Yeah, exactly. Do you think that people who don't have a business or brands, like, what do you think about building your Instagram profile as a form of representing you or building a personal brand even though you don't have a business? Because ultimately, you know, once we have an Instagram account, it's like a different appearance. We are creating a Persona that is not necessarily your individual self. So I'm sure that a lot of people watching this, they don't have a business account, but they have an Instagram account. So how can you relate that?

Yeah, so I am a huge believer of personal brands. I actually think that at some point, every brand is going to have to rely on personal brands. And even if you're not a actual business, it is going to become important. Because right now, in certain industries, like marketing or obviously, if you're like an actress or actor. Right. I know some people that has gotten roles or parts because they have more followers than this other actress or something like that.

Absolutely. It happens here all of the time. Yeah.

Even if they might not be as good of an actress. Right. And then in marketing, what they do is when they look at resumes, then they hire people, they always look at social media because they use it as like a gauge to be like, oh, does this person know how to market himself? If they do, they're probably going to be good in this role. Right.

And I don't think it's just with marketing. I think it's also in everywhere. Like, if. If I'm hiring, I would probably go search for that person's Facebook page and Instagram account. Like, I want to see how they show, how they, you know, like you said, market themselves or. Or who is that Persona that they portray.

Yeah, stop the Persona to get a feel for what they're like. Because when. When you go through their social media and they show themselves, they really bring themselves, their personality, you almost feel like they're your friend, you know them. Right. So you're gonna have this bias towards that person also, the way they communicate, like, are they a good communicator, things like that.

So I think it's important for all of you, especially seeking for a job or building. Like, you do have an Instagram account. I think that, you know, all the things that we talked about, telling stories or being authentic or like, just. Just presenting yourself in a certain way helps build your brand, which is going to be used for you or sometimes, you know, if. If you want, especially when you're looking for a job or when you do have your. Like, you end up opening your own business or.

Let me give us just one quick little story. So when I started my company, I wasn't as authentic. And if I missed deadlines or something like that, I would always come up with excuses like, oh, you know, the whole. My dog ate my homework. Like, our server went down. Oh, sorry. Like, I didn't see that email, those kind of things. At that time, I was, like, so busy. I was swamped. I missed this deadline twice and the client kept calling me. And finally I didn't have time. I didn't even have the energy to lie to make up an excuse. So I just told them, like, hey, the truth is we're kind of struggling financially and we took on more project than we can just to keep the cash flow going. And I know that we missed the deadline twice, but I assure you that I'm going to deliver a quality product at the end and just give us a little bit more time. And at that time, I thought he was going to fire me. I was completely being vulnerable. But instead, he actually gave us a bonus. He paid us more money to make sure that we can stay open and gave us more time. Right. So that's like a mini aha moment where I found the value of being vulnerable, even in a business setting. And that really, like, he really trusted me from that point on. So that's like a quick story of.

That's incredible. First of all, what a beautiful story. And, like, the humane moment, right? Like, it restores faith in humanity. And also. Yeah, it's just proof that, like, saying the truth and being vulnerable, it's not even saying the truth because you could have said, you know, like, other things that might have been considered as true. But being vulnerable, it's not going to play against you ever. Like, if people use it against you, then these are not the right people to be around to begin with, I think. And if you want to attract the right people, it's the people who are going to appreciate your vulnerability. And I think there is, like, something so freeing, so much freedom in being vulnerable, whether it's like, when speaking English, but also when, you know, when at work, when, you know, doing business and everything else. Like when posting on Instagram.

Yeah, that's the best part, I think, what you said, being freeing. It's like they say, truth shall set you free. That is literally the best part. Because my. All throughout my life, I felt like there was always. I was wearing a mask. I was. There's this, like, heavy weight on my shoulders. Like, oh, what if I say something wrong? Or what if, you know, what if somebody catches me here? But just taking off that mask, the best thing was that, like, I felt free. Like, I feel untouchable.

Amen to it. Untouchable.

Right.

And I think we just had that discussion with my students that we had a session today, and this woman said, like, she made me tear up. She said, first of all, I feel this freedom in English that I've never felt before. And it's not like it's been two months, you know, it's not like the results, like, all of a sudden I sound like a different. No, it's just that the. The mental process that you're going through. And, you know, in my work, I put in a lot of mindset and a lot of repetition to build up that confidence, right? To give them. It's like fake experience of actually doing the work, right. Like, you spoke about the fact that if people want to create those carousels, they need to imitate carousels to the T, like 20, 30 times until they. They have that feeling of what it is to create a carousel. I do the same with grammar structures or sounds, right? They take a grammar structure that is problematic, and I have them repeat it many, many different times. So in their brains and in their body, they have the experience of having done that, right? Like, and they come to a conversation more, more confidence because they know. Confident because they know that their body knows how to handle this situation or this story or this tense whatever or sound. I think ultimately it's, like, not about the results, and it's not about the performance. It's about the freedom and it's about the internal journey that you're going through. And then, like, that's when you attract people.

People can feel the difference. People that are listening. Like, even if, I guess your English or your accent hasn't improved drastically, I think the confidence, people can still feel it. Because that happens to me a lot where I go into a meeting with an agenda in my mind, overthinking. I want to say this, and I'm going to say this. I'm going to. And I go in and I get. I just get this, like, blank stare in my. And nobody's onto it. And then all of a sudden I'm like, okay, I don't care anymore. And I just speak. Instantly, the. The energy of the room changes and everybody starts, like, getting drawn to it.

I love that. I wish that for so many people, you know, who are right at the part of, you know, people don't get it and then they see, stop, you know, And I think this is such a good example. You feel that you're saying something and people don't get you. Instead of being quiet and, like, curling back in, just open it up and don't give a fuck, you know, and just like it. And just, like, don't think about your accent, don't think about your English, and just like, pour out everything that you have to say. And like sun said, he felt that it has changed the energy in the room, right? And all of a sudden he took up more space or he owned his space. So thank you for sharing that, because I think this is the essence of what it is that we're always talking about. Okay, so first of all, do you believe in analogy to simplify stories?

Yeah. Yeah, I always use analogies whenever I don't have. Like you said, if the story is too complex or if I don't have enough. Like, for example, in the carousel, I use it all the time because I can't write a whole story in the carousel. So then I'll just use that. Like, one example I did was I always try to tell people, like, you just have to do it. Like, you can't sit there and just watch YouTube videos or read books all day. You have to actually practice it. Right. So the analogy I gave is, you know, you can't learn how to write by ride a bike, just reading a book. Right. At some point, you just have to go out and write it. That's when you're really so. Something like that. Yeah.

But, yeah, I think analogies are the best way. Or metaphors.

Right.

Like, the best way to convey a complex idea.

I always get those two mixed up. I'm like, is it a metaphor or analogy?

Either or. You get what we're saying, right? Yeah. I want to explain it, but then I'm like, maybe I should let people who can explain it better explain it in the comments.

Okay.

Mauricio says, surround yourself with the people who truly value you. That's so true for everything. Yeah.

That's why I love your Facebook group, because I feel like community is everything. You have to know that you can go out there in the real world and fail, and there's still this community that's going to be supporting you no matter what happens. Right. And that's what kind of helps you get that confidence.

Exactly. And I truly believe in community learning nowadays, because we are, especially now, you know, Covid, we're all isolated, quarantined. We need other people to grow, especially when it comes to language learning or to storytelling and building a business. Like, we need a community. And when it comes to marketing and branding, I always say your brand is only as strong as your community, especially in our industry, in the English learning industry. Because what I find so beautiful about the influencer community, the Facebook group, is that there is this constant support and sense of empowerment, no matter what happens. And like you said, it allows them to fail. And if you fail enough times in a safe environment around other people, then you will be okay with failing around other people. Because you see, like, it's not that big a deal, even with a more judgmental audience.

Right.

And that's a good thing.

So right now you're just talking about your services, your features and benefits and things like that. It's kind of like when you put together a sales page, the sales script is the same thing, right? Like, people don't buy features and benefits. They buy a solution, right? Or a solution to a pain that they have. So you have to start out by talking about the pains and then give a story, whether your own personal story or story of a client that you work with or something like that that gives an example of yes. You see, like this client was having this problem and this is how we solved it for them. Or I was having the same problem and this is how I got over it. Something like that. And then you go into the features and benefits, and the reason why that works is because of these features and benefits that, that'll get people to remember you, resonate with you, relate to you, than just going right into the features and benefits, right?

And I think, you know, it's funny, when I talk about my courses, when people sign up, no one really remembers what the course has, right? Like they, they have an idea what they're going to get, they're impressed, they want to do it right. But ultimately no one really looks in the details. They want to know what it's going to like, what are the results that they're going to come out with, you know, and a lot of times I'm like, for years I was obsessed with like, talk about what my course has to offer. And when I changed that, like, it truly wasn't the main thing. And. And I think that for everyone thinking about these things, look at what you're looking for when you are buying things or when you are looking at other people's products or even Instagram accounts, what are you looking at? Like, what is the first thing that you're doing? You're seeing the photo, you're reading the post, then you go to the bio to see if it's a right fit. You look at the first grid. So think of the process that you're going through and then say, okay, what do I want people to feel? Whether you have a business or you don't, you know, even if you're just posting to build your personal brand for whatever reason that is.

Even like in interviews, I think in job interviews, that helps. You can talk about your resume and all the experiences you have, they're not really going to remember that. But if you talk about like a story that happened within that job where you solved a problem or something that they, a skill that they might value, that's going to be more memorable.

This is such a good tip because I know that a lot of people are like, really afraid of going into job interviews. So I think have some key stories under your belt of how you solved something or dealt with a challenge or what brought you to do what you do, why you're so passionate about this work rather than the actual experience. Any last words that you'd like to conclude today?

Yeah, I mean, thank you so much for having me. It was so much fun. Yeah, I love knowing, like, that, you know, there's all these, like, kind of connections between, like, what you do. Even though, like, we do two totally different things. Like, at the end of the day, we're dealing with humans, so, you know, there's not that much difference when you communicate with people.

Exactly. Right. And then I told Sam before we went live when we checked the audio, and it worked. So I told Son. It's just like. It's so funny to see the same fears, same patterns. You work, you know, branding and storytelling, and I do it in language learning, and I see it in business in my business courses. And then when you realize it's just the human patterns, right? Like, it's how we behave and how we operate in the world, then it takes away a little bit of the weight it has. If it's just for storytelling or for language learning.

Right.

Like, it's the. Oh, it's not just me struggling with English. It's actually everyone, but it's actually not just everyone struggling with English. Is everyone struggling with anything in life? You know, like, having their own voice, being accepted by the society, or, like, not the fear of being judged, the fear of not being adequate? So, yeah, life lessons, for sure. Okay, you guys. So thank you, son, so, so much. It was such a pleasure talking to you. Thank you all. Thank you, everyone.

Sa.