207. You just asked me where I'm from. So why do I feel offended? [Interview]

Welcome to the Influency Podcast. I'm Hadar and this is episode number 207. Today we are going to talk about microaggression and dealing with discrimination and micro inequities when English is your second language. Our guest today is Gina Gomez, a business strategist and a diversity and inclusion consultant. And she's also my business coach. And I guarantee that this conversation is going to be over. So interesting.

Hi, Gina.

Hi, Hadar. I'm so excited to spend time with you today.

I'm so excited that you're here finally. I've been wanting to get you on my channel and podcasts for so long. So thank you so much for doing this. I really, really appreciate it.

Oh, it's absolutely my pleasure.

So, for those who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about you and what you do, except for the fact that you are my business coach and friend, of course.

I'm happy to. So I am Gina Gomez, as you mentioned earlier, and I'm a business strategist and advisor. I am the founder of a company called Gina Gomez and Associates, and we're a business development company where we specialize in diversity, equity and inclusion. So everything we do, from soup to nuts in business and our business strategy and advisement, we always make sure that inclusion, diversity and equity are a big, big part of that.

What made you decide to focus on that in your business?

Oh, I love this question, and here's why. Because when I've been working for many, many years, and back in my corporate days, I was tasked with a lot of projects, departments and markets that no one else wanted, what I found was that those markets were usually underserved, came from underserved communities. And I learned a lot. I learned a lot. Also, being somebody, you know, a woman of color who also comes from an underserved community, and being able to work with people who are not seen or who don't necessarily get treated equally or equitably, it taught me a lot. It taught me a lot about needs. It taught me a lot about the human experience. It also taught me about how we can all be better human beings. So for me, I was very clear that no matter what I did for a living, that I always wanted to do something that had a positive impact.

With people, which definitely is something that drew me to you because I think that these are, you know, our values as well in our company. And I think that that's also what we're trying to always raise and talk about here on the podcast. And channel because I think when it comes to learning English and speaking English as a second language, especially for immigrants, because this interview is part of our Immigrant Experience project, we don't think of language as a source of discrimination or a source that creates inequality, but actually it does. And if we start speaking about it in different terms, terms that we know from other aspects of life, then I think it would help people cope with it a lot better and actually develop emotional resilience or maybe more a better way to communicate with all the setbacks that people experience when speaking a second language. So it's both about the language and feeling not good enough because of many different reasons. But it's also for people trying to fit in in a culture that is not their culture in a new place, immigrants that deal with all sorts of negative emotions. And I want to talk about that. So actually that leads me to my first question about the topic, which is a lot of times people tell me, my students tell me, especially students who live in an English speaking country and English is not their first language, that when they communicate with other people, their identity or where they're from or what language they speak is the center of attention. Like that's the thing that people ask about and talk about. And they get asked about it like ten times a day. I actually remember that when I moved to the U.S. you know, and I lived there for a few years, people would constantly ask me about it and usually that would really, really aggravate me, like I did not want to talk about it. And that's the experience too, because, well, I'm not going to say why, but I'm going to ask you, why is it so annoying? Why do people. Because at the end of the day you can say, well, they're just curious, but can you help me understand why it gets people to feel uncomfortable when that happens?

Sure. I think a great place to start is also looking at the difference between intention and impact. For example, someone's intention may be to make you uncomfortable, right? Like, let's just call a thing a thing. Sometimes that is, that is a thing that can come up. It can be perceived as a micro inequity or a microaggression. And micro inequities are acts that demean or marginalize a person, whereas microaggressions are acts that stereotype or denigrate a person. So this came from Mary T. Rowe, who was a professor who actually started talking about microaggressions and micro inequities. Here's an example of me. So let's say you and I have just met. I might ask you, and I would be very careful about how I ask, but let's just do it from a human perspective. Not a trained person who knows how to ask and how not to ask. But just say out of curiosity, I'm curious about what your journey is. It doesn't matter why I'm asking. My intention might be, oh, I'm just curious because she might be from a place that I've been, and maybe that's a way for us to connect. However, the impact might be, well, that's very rude for her to be asking me these things or making these. This is not part of the conversation, and I didn't give her permission to ask about my background, so it may feel invasive. So while my intention was to connect with you, the impact might be that I pushed you away. Or when we hear people say things like, well, how long have you lived here? Why isn't your English better? Why isn't your accent better? Well, here's the truth. I've traveled all over the world, and if someone said that to me, I would be devastated because I would be like, well, because I won't speak the language. I'm doing the best I can. We're all doing the best we can. And the truth is, I'm a native California. I'm one of the few. There aren't many of us left, but I was born and raised here and have lived here my whole life. There are words I still sometimes get tripped up on. Or I've shared this with you where I'm watching, and I love sharing this because I think it's so funny. When I was watching one of your tongue twister videos. I love tongue twisters. I have since I was a kid. And I'm watching this video and I'm listening to you, and I'm doing it with you, and all of a sudden I go, wait, what did she say? Wait, no, that's not right. And I realized, oh, no, it's not hadar who's saying it's wrong. It's me who was saying it wrong. And I thought, okay, well, I need to take a step back. So my point to this is, we're all human. And the great thing about being able to be clear about intention and impact is that it can also grow our sense of compassion for each other, but also for ourselves in our patients. And the way that we show up, it's also an opportunity for us. If we're being microaggressed, we're the person who's on the receiving end to also decide how we want to respond to it, if we want to respond.

Can you elaborate a bit more about microaggression? Maybe explain what that is again? So you, you talked about it, but I would love to get a few examples of what that is.

Sure. So someone might say something like. Like they might use a stereotype. So stereotype of, let's say, a certain culture that has a difficult time pronouncing certain words or a certain letter, like the R, like the hard R in. In English comes up for. For a number of different languages or people who speak different languages as their first language. So sometimes people will say something like, oh, the way that you say that, I mean, it really makes you sound like, blah, blah, blah. Like a character who spoofed on a TV show. That's also inappropriate, but because people think it's on tv, that it's okay because it's funny, but it's not to the person who's on this receiving end. Right. So that could be something. Or like, oh, all foreigners speak with an accent. Right. That's another stereotype. So there are things like that. That, that can come up. Or when people say things like, here's another thing, if somebody's talking and they're having a hard time finding the words, it might take a little longer and you start to see somebody sighing or the body language starts to shift. Feeling impatient a lot. Right. They feel impatient. But here's what I also. I really do believe that everyone should travel and go to a foreign country where they do not speak the language, because that will level you out faster than anything else. I remember going to Paris for the very first time, and people told me all kinds of things. Of all the stereotypes, what I could expect. I was terrified to go. Terrified. I had the best experience. The people could not have been nicer. It was a wonderful, wonderful experience. And you know what I found? As long as I tried to speak the language, no matter how much I butchered it, people were willing to go above and beyond to help me. It gave me a greater sense of, well, I have to try. I can't just expect when people come here that this is the way it should be. When I'm a guest in someone else's country, I want to understand what the cultural roles are and what's expected. And I also want to put an effort in.

Yeah.

But I do think that when we have those experiences, it can help us have a greater sense of awareness and understanding.

Yeah. And specifically that example that you described, first of all, it happens, right? Especially people working, let's say, in call centers, because it's easier to insult someone or get impatient with someone who cannot see you, right? Or you can't see. You don't know who that person is. Just a voice. And I also think that because people experience that, they've started developing fear of it, right? This fear of it. So they don't allow themselves to express themselves freely because they're afraid of getting that impatient response. So microaggression is not just something that you experience in the moment. It's really inhibiting you from taking action or. Or showing up or even interacting with people. A few other examples tell me if that you would consider that as microaggression. Like, people tell me that they get asked where they're from a lot. Once they hear their accent, they get asked, like you said, how long have you lived here? Even though they've been living there for 20 years or 30 years, things like that. And I think that one of the things that come up for my students is that it makes them feel like they could never belong, right? If people keep pointing out at that.

Well, especially if the first thing you hear is, where are you from? What you're also hearing is you're not from here. You're not part of us. You're separate. So when you feel separate, you are going to show up and behave a little differently. Just like when you go to someone's home for the first time, you don't necessarily know what's expected and you're on your best behavior. And as you start to get more comfortable and you go to that place more often, you might relax a little bit and your behavior might shift somewhat. It's the same thing here. I think when people are asking questions like, where are you from? That is inappropriate, and that is a microaggression or a micro inequity. And when we're looking from a place of curiosity of like, I want to better understand your culture, that's a different conversation. So while we used to think that it was okay to ask, and it wasn't necessarily that it was okay, it was that it was tolerated, right? So when people would say things like, where are you from? Again, intention impact. My intention is to find out more about Hadar and to better understand her culture or I'm curious to know where she's from because, you know, because I want to connect with her. But it doesn't mean that just because that's where I'm coming from, it's going to land that way with you. So instead I might ask a little a different question. Like. Like, tell me, you know, like, tell me, you know, tell me what you do for fun. And you might say, oh, well, you know, I spend time with my family. We do. That might give me a little insight into where you live or what your background is culturally. And as we develop trust and a rapport and a level of. Then we might be able to have a deeper conversation around your background because you feel comfortable. And you also invite me to partake in that.

Yeah, I love that. And I also want to mention that this is a good opportunity to talk. We always talk about tone of voice and, you know, intonation when we talk about English. But I think this also plays out here as well, because when the tone is carrying or when it's done in the middle of a conversation, it's totally different than when it's like, oh, where are you from? You know, like, when the tone is very patronizing and not friendly, or if.

We say something based on, you know, just based on how we were used to talking, like, you know, culturally, there are things that certain countries can say, and they say it jokingly, but it means something different in another country. Right. So when we're aware of those types of things, we can also be more sensitive to the conversation that's taking place, but also be more aware that just because I talk that way with my friends doesn't mean it's going to be received that way by everyone.

I have another question for you. A lot of the people who watch follow this channel, and my students, one of their goals is to improve their pronunciation. Some even have this goal to lose their accent completely because they face discrimination. Right. People have different reasons for that. But the people who stick out and I want to talk about today are people who want to lose their identity in, like, how. How it comes through their language because they don't want to face discrimination. And they do the moment they open their mouth. How do you navigate this conflict between, you know, doing the work and. And wanting to avoid discrimination, but at the same time not compromising who you are in your identity and your story?

Yeah, it's tough, right? Because I think when we're learning a language or we're learning to trying to get rid of an accent, we're also doing our best. But it also brings up insecurities, fears, all the things. Like anytime we're learning something new, not just a language, but that's just a normal part of the human experience. I think that when we're looking at these things and also Being aware of why we started. So I'll give you a quick example. I told you, I was born and raised here in Southern California. I was not raised. My background is Mexican, but I was not raised in a Spanish speaking home because at the time that I was being raised, that's not what you did. You wanted to assimilate your children and make them as American as possible. So what I learned, I learned in school, in high school and college, because I was naturally curious and I wanted to learn the language. You and I have had this conversation. I can't believe I'm going to say this in an interview, but I can't roll my R's to save my life. Do you know how humiliating and embarrassing that is for me? So I want everyone to listen. This is not just you. I am terrible at it. And it makes me like I'm so uncomfortable in my chair just moving right now. Oh, don't worry about it.

Like, I already know what we're going to do in our next session by the.

So uncomfortable for me to admit that because I feel like I should be able to do it. It's like, why wasn't I born with this natural ability? But I'm also aware of how much that has hurt me because I got so scared that it was like, well, then I'm just not going to try anymore because this is just too hard. And I don't like being laughed at. Even though people aren't really, you know, like, people are joking and they're coming from where they're coming from and like, oh, isn't that so cute? She can't roll her Rs and that doesn't feel cute to me.

Yeah.

So I understand that. But I also understand what happens if I decide that that's going to dictate whether or not I try anymore. Because while I think I might be saying, well, I'll show them, I just won't speak. I won't speak Spanish anymore. Who am I really showing and who am I really punishing?

Yeah, me.

Because if that's something that's important to me, who cares if I can't pronounce my Rs as long as I can get the words out and get, you know, get what I need to get done, like a conversation or communicating in whatever way, shape or form, it's important for me to keep at it and maybe one day I will be able to roll my arms.

You will.

I know you will. So, yeah, I definitely agree with that. Like, this is something we were constantly talking like the. You Choosing not to speak or not to involve yourself in things that you want because of that fear of discrimination, of judgment, of, you know, being perceived as not intelligent enough is only hurting you. Right. Like, it's only hurting your progress and your achievements. And, you know, you live your life for yourself, not for them or their opinions. So ultimately, it's a really easy choice when we re. When we look at it as is, like, just like you laid it out.

Yeah. I think it's also hard when, you know, when you're in the situation, too. I know for some people, you know, it's like, oh, I wish I could be quick on my feet, and I know what to say and know how to respond in the moment instead of just feeling bad and then taking those feelings with me. And what you can always do is you can always just say something as simple as, you know, thank you. When. When I'm looking for some feedback, I will, you know, I will reach out or just thank you, and you move on. But if you engage in the conversation, allow it. That's when it can get like, if you want to engage in the conversation, great, but if you don't, you don't have to. I think that's part of it, too, is we feel obligated because it's like, well, this is somebody. And I'm just using this as an example, somebody who does speak English. And I don't want them to think I'm difficult because of blah, blah, blah. But you also have. We all have boundaries. And it's also okay to say, yeah, this conversation doesn't feel good to me, so I'm just going to exit out of the conversation. Yeah, you can just say thank you.

Having the courage to do that, or thank you. When I ask for feedback, I'll ask it. I think it's a really important step in that ultimate freedom, both in English and as a human being able to say, this is as far as I'm willing to go. This does not feel comfortable. I'm out. I really want to encourage everyone watching to do more of that and not feel that because you don't speak, you weren't born into English. You don't have. You're not entitled to have the same, you know, experience as anyone else or the same respect as anyone else does.

Yeah, you don't have. You don't have to stay in an uncomfortable conversation. You also. And somebody might be watching this saying, I also. I don't want to sound like a jerk.

Right.

Like, I don't want to sound like I'm Rude. When I say thank you, I'm not interested in your feedback. You can just say, you know, thanks. I'm thanks. That's it. You don't owe anybody an explanation. You can just wrap up the conversation because it's also a way for you to protect your own feelings without having to project those feelings onto someone else.

Yeah, yeah. Which actually is something that I'm curious about. Like when we take it to the workplace where you really have, let's say you're receiving that from your colleagues or from your boss, which, you know, I've had students that that's what they experienced. That's a slightly different situation. So I think the attitude can be the same. If you want to talk about that, I would really, you know, like.

Please.

Feel free to elaborate as much as you want. But I'm also curious in hearing, how can native speakers in this context of the workplace can do a better job at making people who are non native speakers feel more comfortable and more supported?

This is a great question because it's a layered answer. Some of this is also on the employer. To create a culture and an environment, and that is inclusive. And an inclusive environment means being able to allow people to show up as themselves with whatever differentiates us and to be okay with that. And when we're looking at things like accents or somebody who's, who may not be super fluent or proficient in English, if a native speaker is saying something like, let's just use the earlier example of like, you've been here for X number of years. I thought your English would be better by now. That's a toxic work environment and that can turn into a hostile work environment. The first thing I would say is if you're somebody who's in that situation, you have an option you can say to that person, depending on how much you want to invest in the conversation, you can say nothing and you can walk away. You can also say, just so you know, that's what's considered a microaggression. Let me explain to you what that is and what the impact is. And I would really appreciate it if next time you're a little more mindful of it. I get it if you don't understand, but it really, it's really offensive to me or it really affects me when you say that. Give somebody the opportunity to change the behavior. If they don't change the behavior, that's when you run it up the flagpole. You go to your boss, you go to hr, you go to whomever you have to to say, there's Something that's going on. And if this continues to happen, my concern is that it's going to impact my ability to do my job effectively because it will affect your ability to do your job effectively. Because what happens is when we are experiencing microaggressions and micro inequities and a lot of times people don't talk about this, but when you come from a marginalized community and you've had this experience, you're going to know exactly what I'm talking about. Someone says something like that to you and you try to get back to work and the whole time this story is running the show in the back of your head so you can't get the work done because all you're thinking is, is somebody else going to say that to me? Do they think this about me? Do they think that about me? Is this, am I going to lose my job? And then what happens is then performance starts to decline and then it validates all those terrible, terrible things that we were questioning and now they start to turn into beliefs. I'm not good enough, my English isn't good enough, I'm not good enough at this job. And then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. When the truth was in this case, it probably started with a microaggression or micro inequity.

Wow, this is so important. And as, as an English coach, I would say take, you know, literally take what you said word by word and then say it out loud a bunch of times so you gain confidence saying it. Right? Like don't try to come up with that on the spot because the words are not going to be there for you. But I think it's really great to practice saying it to build that confidence and, and to show yourself that it's possible for you to say it out loud. Because when you say things, it becomes a reality of you saying that, even if it's just to yourself. And then when the situation presents itself, it's easier to tap into it. And I think this is like part of how we keep ourselves safe. And I think this is such a valuable, this is such a valuable piece of advice. So thank you so much.

You're very welcome. I think it's important for us to, and it's not about taking care of the native speakers to make sure that they understand what they're doing. It's an opportunity to say, okay, I'm going to let you know that I'm not going to lose it right now. But if this continues, then there will be consequences and it doesn't mean, and I don't mean that in a threatening way. I mean it in a way of like I'm gonna. I'm gonna educate you to make sure you understand what you're doing. If you do it again, then there's no excuse. You can't say you didn't know. You can't say you didn't understand. You can't say no one told you because we had a conversation. And now what it tells me, if you're doing it again, either you forgot or you don't care, or there's something I just don't know, so help me understand that.

But what happens if it's your boss or your employer?

That's usually when you do have to bring in human resources or somebody who can advocate for you. And that can. And I'm not going to lie, that can get uncomfortable. That for sure can get uncomfortable. But it's also what creates a hostile work environment. Because chances are, if that employer or that boss is doing it to you, they're doing it to other people. And they've probably been doing it for a long time and getting away with it. And it's not okay.

It's just that it takes a lot of courage to do such a thing. And then people who are usually, you know, people who usually feel that people are doing them a favor by hiring them to begin with because of English, because they're not from here, because, you know, it took them a while to find this job, then they might put up with a lot of things. And I just want to talk about how important it is to make sure that you're not in a situation that gets you to feel horrible about yourself every single day. And I've seen that. I'm sharing that because I've seen that over and over again with my students. And I think it's really important to recognize such toxic situations and do what you can to improve it. But if not, then maybe it's time to know your worth and find a.

Better place, which I think is easier said than done. Right? Because when we're looking at the job market or we take our own things into consideration, whether it's experience or age or, you know, whatever the demographic is, that can also play into this. So one thing I think is really important is if you're somebody who's looking for a job as an example, and you're going through the interview process, ask questions about the company and the company culture, ask how diverse is the team, ask how many people in leadership positions come from underserved communities. The more information and these are all acceptable and normal questions to be asking, especially in today's world. And if an employer is not prepared for that, that's a red flag. If you're already employed and you're in a situation where you're not getting what you need, I think it's also important to look around within the people that you work with and your colleagues. You know, one of the things I think is really important is for natives or, you know, if we're looking at, you know, race as an example for people to speak up and stand up for each other. So if I. If I see discrimination happening where I'm nearby, I am somebody who will speak up. And that wasn't something that was super easy for me because especially coming from a marginalized community, it was like, well, what do you know? Nobody wants to listen to you either. That was hard. But I also got to a place where it was like, well, someone's going to listen to me someday. As long as I keep doing this, eventually someone's going to hear me. That's also a form of protest. That's how we've gotten here, right, with people, you know, we've been asking, asking, asking, asking. So I understand why after, you know, you know, so many years, there are communities who are. Who are angry, saying, okay, we're tired of asking for things in the way that we want them. We want to be seen and recognized. And that is totally fine and acceptable. To say, enough is enough. I matter too. Yeah, because we do. We all matter.

Yeah, for sure. I have one. One more question.

As long as you don't ask me to roll an R, I'll answer your question.

Can you roll an R?

The answer that would be for our.

Next interview where we practice rolling our Rs. A lot of my students are like, their biggest fear is that native speakers would judge them for speaking slowly or getting stuck. So I really want. You mentioned that at the beginning, but I want to mention, like, I want you to talk about it again. You know, what goes through your head when you're speaking to someone who speaks English as a second language. And it's.

It's, you know, I may not be. So let me preface it with this. I may not be the best person to ask, and here's why. Because I love it. And here's why I love it. Because I think anyone who's willing to try to learn a foreign language and really put all their heart and effort into it, that's a big undertaking. I have a lot of respect for people who do it and who stick with it, because most people don't. Right. I think that for me, and I'll give you an example, you know, as someone who loves to travel, I love traveling, you know, all over the world. And it's really fun to me when I go to a foreign country. And where I saw this the most was when I used to go to Germany, you know, for holiday, and I'd be traveling around Europe. And what I found was that culture, more than any other culture that I had experienced at the time, was always like, you're from America. Can I practice my English on you? And it was like, this is so much fun. And it was great because a lot of times their English was also better than mine, where I was like, I don't understand what we're practicing here because you've got it under control. But I just. I love that because for me, it's a way to connect with another human being. And I know how I would feel learning a language if somebody took the interest and the patience when it takes me longer, because I don't. So here's an example. I don't speak Spanish on a regular basis, so it does take me a little while to get back into it. I can get back into it, but it takes me a minute. So knowing that someone's patient in understanding that it's going to take me a minute to get back into it or a day, that that's also makes me feel more confident and safe where I can keep going. But if someone's impatient with me, then I'm like, well, then why am I doing this? And I shut down. That's not fun. So I happen to love when people want to practice because for me, it's.

A really cool experience, and that's amazing. And I think that most people feel the same. And I think it's important for those who are not speaking English as their first language. Like, no one's there to criticize them or judge them. They're just there to appreciate them and connect with them. And that's it. You know, ultimately, that's what it's about. Like you said, connecting with people.

Yeah.

Gina, thank you so much for spending this time with us. And where can people find you and learn more about all the things?

So, first of all, I'm going to be here, and we're going to just keep this rolling. People can find me at gina gomez and associates.com and we're going to put.

All the links below so you can learn more and read your posts. And I think it's all very, you know, it's so important to educate ourselves in those areas because I think it gives us more new ways to think about the day to day experiences which sometimes we kind of like don't know how to deal with. And I think that puts emotions and thoughts into words. So thank you so much for doing this work. I really appreciate you.

Oh, I appreciate you. And thank you so much for having me. I think this is, it's so great what you're doing and I love what, you know, what you're working on creating for the community, but also to encourage the community to keep doing what you're doing. Like, this is, it's so important. And this is also a great time for us to come together and to learn about each other in a way that we've not been open to in the past.

For sure.

Thank you so much, Gina.

Thank you, Hadar.

All right. Thank you, Gina, so much for this interview and thank you everyone for watching. I really hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. I'm going to put all the links in the description. Description if you want to connect with Gina. And of course, if we haven't connected just yet, you're invited to come and follow me on Instagram at Hadar Accentsway or on my website at hadarshamesh.

Com.

Have a beautiful, beautiful rest of the day and I'll see you next week in the next video.

Bye.