312. Equality in English Teaching with Marek Kiczkowiak

Welcome to the Influency Podcast. I'm Hadar and this is episode number 312. Today we are going to have a conversation about equality in English teaching with Marek Kicowiak. Hey. Hey everyone. Welcome, welcome, welcome back. I'm happy that you're here. Today's episode is yet another episode from my live English show where I interviewed interesting people with interesting stories. And in this episode I talk with Marek Ikowiak about native speakerism in the ELT industry, which is the English language teaching industry, and how it promotes discrimination and inequality. When suggesting that native speaking teachers are more qualified and skilled to teach English as a second language as they represent the standard of speaking and teaching, Marek shares his story as well as some tips and resources to help students and teachers battle this phenomenon. Marek runs TEFL Equity Advocates and Academy where he helps teachers tackle native speakerism and teach English for global communication and more. Links are in the description below. This interview was recorded a while back about two years ago, but unfortunately it is still relevant today. I hope you enjoy it. Let's listen to this conversation.

Today.

I am so honored to have with us someone whom I've been following for a while because he deals and he. He raises awareness towards something that I'm very, very passionate about, which is native speakerism. If you don't know what that is, and if you haven't been following me on Instagram, by the way, if you haven't, then come on over to Hadar Accentsway so we can have deeper discussions there. And I recently raised the issue as a response to something that happened in our industry and Mark and I are going to talk about that as well. But I saw that there is a high demand for a deep and interesting conversation about that. And since Mark has been doing this for many years, then I thought that he would be an excellent person to come on over and share with us his insights. So Mark runs TEFL Equity Advocate and Academy. He helps their teachers tackle native speakerism and also teach English and teach pronunciation for global communication. And I'm going to or I have already posted all the links to, to Teple Equity and also to his YouTube channel where he teaches academic English. You should definitely check that out as well. It's right in the description and that's it. So let's not wait any longer and bring Marek right here. Okay? So please welcome him. Hi Mark.

Hey everybody. Great to be here. It really feels like a kind of, you know, one of those US talk shows or something like this where somebody comes in on the scene you know, there's music and stuff like this. It really feels professional. It was amazing.

It's great to be a talk show.

Definitely is.

Marc, such a pleasure having you here. You know, I have come across your website a couple of years ago when I first started thinking about the fact that, you know, there was a big problem with people treating non native speaking teachers differently than native speaking teachers. And as a non native speaking teacher I never, I never applied for any type of job in the industry, so I never felt that. But I definitely felt that while running my own YouTube channel and creating content, you know, as, you know, a pronunciation expert and as a leader in the industry. So we'll, you know, back then when I just started out, I did not feel that way. But you know, and I felt a lot of insecurities and I didn't even know that there is such thing as native speakerism. Right. And then I started researching it a little bit and I came across your website and I've learned a lot about it. So let's begin by just sharing with us your story. You know, what has made you start TEFL Equity and why, like what was the need that led you to do that?

Sure. Well, I think as probably a lot of non native speaker teachers who might be listening to us, you know, I applied for a job that was many years ago, I was working for a very well known language school chain and I applied for to transfer to another school within that chain. And, and you know, I got the reply straight away saying that your CV looks great, but our school's policy is to hire only native speakers. Right. And at that point, you know, I was a young 20 something, 21 year old teacher. I didn't really know what to do with it. And I was actually really lucky that at that point a colleague of mine who is a native speaker maybe is listening, Mark Skinner, if you are Mark, I'm saying hello. He was there in the staff room and you know, he saw me like, you know, just like being really, I just didn't know what to do. And he told me that like, look, you can't leave it like this. It's not right. They're not right to discriminate you. You're a great teacher, you have to do something about it. And you know, so he kind of pushed me in those first few minutes because I might have just walked away and accepted it. Well, okay, I'm a non native speaker.

But you know, yeah, like that's what it is, right. Like we don't challenge this fact. It's kind of like, as non native speakers, we already have that story that we tell ourselves, right? That we are not like that there is some sort of inferiority. The story that we need to kind of like break and change. But it was some kind. And also the story that we've been told by our teachers and by the industry that like, if you're not a native, you know, you need to work really hard to get to a native level and then you're okay. Well, I totally do that. Yeah.

Funnily enough, you know, next to us was a Polish teacher. I'm also from Poland, by the way. And I still remember her saying to. To me, oh, but surely you don't think you're an equal to a native speaker. And I was just like, yeah, hold on a second. What's happening here? Right? So there is a lot of that, what you said that, you know, a lot of non native speakers do feel inferior in many ways. But to, you know, to cut a long story short, I basically decided to write an article. I sent it to El Gazette, who published it, and we informed the school chain. It was. It's a worldwide school chain. It's very well known. We were informed that we were publishing this article because otherwise they might sue us for label. And then we sent it out and in the end the school offered me a job, but by that time I had already moved somewhere else and they had to. Too little, too late. They don't know what they missed, but. And they changed the policies. But basically, you know, kind of like you, I. Afterwards, I wanted to find out a little bit more about the topic and I kind of realized that I kind of felt a little bit lonely as well. There was no one place to go for me to find information about it. A lot of it was locked up in research papers. And so I basically decided to start a blog. You know, it first started as a, as a blog where I was just ranting about it and then, you know, organically it started growing to other things like YouTube channel with weekly videos, my academy with courses, you know, and things like, things like this. But it really just started as a blog with a rant of an angry non native speaker frustrated at native speakerism in our industry.

I want to point out something really interesting that you said that they changed their policies. Right? Like, which means, you know, that it's okay. Like a lot of times we think we accept something as a status quo and we say this is how it is. There is nothing we can do. We can get frustrated. Okay, we post something on Instagram and that's it. We move forward. But it's really important to understand with that. It's so important to do what you've done, which is to speak up, to talk about it, to publish, you know, more information for people who don't know. Because that might actually create change, that might actually help change policies. Because I think it's just a lot of it is ignorance. Right. They're not even aware that there's like this talent out there. And we're also going to talk about why non native speakers, what is the edge or the advantage that non native speaking teachers have, you know, that is overlooked. Well, first of all, thank you for doing that. And thanks to Mark. Was it your friend that pushed you to realize that there is a discrimination here? And it's funny how those little things kind of like start and you know, they, they create a change. A few weeks ago I posted on Instagram a story, you know it, about this video that went up on Engvid about of a teacher who. And now it's down, I think, by the way. Did you know that?

Okay. No, that's good. That's good.

Yeah. And she was, you know, promoting native speakerism. They're talking about, you know, one of the things that you shouldn't be doing if you want to get fluent is to learn with your non native teacher. Right. And as a result, I've gotten a lot of stories from teachers that experience exactly what you were talking about, which is they want to apply for international schools. And what happens is that they just, they can't even apply. Even though they have, you know, amazing scores, a lot of experience, what would you recommend for them to do?

Yeah, there's a couple of things. I think the first really important step as an English teacher, non native English teacher, is to, is to really fully understand your advantages and your strengths. Because if you're still, deep down, feel inferior, if you still doubt that you can teach pronunciation, if you constantly worry about making mistakes, then you can never compete against native speakers, even those who are less qualified than you are. Because, you know, they don't have those worries. They just kind of, A lot of native speakers will kind of waltz in to the interview thinking that they should get a job because they speak English. Right. And so I think you need to become aware of all those advantages and who you are as a teacher, you know, and be really confident about it. And, and also I think it's really important that you understand how, what native speakerism is and how it's. How it works. Because like with sexism if you don't really know what it is or how it operates, you can't really fight against it. Right? So that's, that's another thing, which, by.

The way, maybe we should, maybe we should define it, right? Like, for a second, I'm like, wait, we're talking about it and I haven't even. So let's, let's remember where we stopped, which is like, to give them tips. And I love those two tips. Maybe let's take a moment and would you mind defining for us what is native speakerism?

So native speakerism is, is an ideology that positions those who are perceived as native speakers as superior, both linguistically and pedagogically. And in here, it's important to point out the word perceived because not everybody will be perceived as a native speaker. So a lot of people of color who are native speakers in our profession will be discriminated against. For example, there's a lot of research that shows that people who are of Asian ancestry but are American citizens, they go to Asia to teach English and they can't find jobs just because of their looks. Right? Whereas me, you know, white, Western looking male, I would be in many places. And because, you know, of my fairly kind of neutral accent, neutral, I might be perceived as a native speaker and have advantages. Right. So that word perceived as important, and you can think of it kind of as sexism where, you know, people are positioned as superior, better based on all those stereotypes that we have about gender and gender roles. Right. And in here, it's kind of, it's kind of the same that there are, you know, certain beliefs that seem kind of common sense, like a belief that native speakers will teach you better pronunciation. And then this is further kind of reinforced through things that we do, which is, for example, in, in a lot of published materials, you will just have standard British or general American accent as the pronunciation model. Right. And this just further reinforces this idea and, you know, and reinforces, promotes, maintains native speakerism.

Right, right, right. And it's so very true about this idea of perceived, which is sometimes I, I omit this word. And it's very true because also there are native speakers who are not from, you know, the U.S. u.K. You know, they're, they're born into English, but whether they're, they live in India or Africa or. But they. English is what, like, you know, they, they've been speaking English since day one, and yet they're not good enough to teach. And also, I think we can also talk about culturally superior. I think that's also so you talked about linguistically, pedagogically and also culturally, like, you know, oh, they won't know slang, they won't know, you know, the right attitude or how to speak and not just English. And I think that is also often.

I, for example, hear English teachers saying that, well, these students, I'm not going to name the country, but these students, they don't know how to think critically. We need to teach them our way of thinking, by which they mean, you know, our native speaker, critical thinking. Because those students over there, they, they don't have those skills. Right. And it's, it's also part of this ideology that, you know, positions, sets and.

People are superior culture in general. Right. Like they're not polite, they're so direct. Well, their culture is direct doesn't mean that it's not right. Maybe it doesn't. It's not aligned with western culture, with less direct cultures, but it doesn't position one any better than the other. So it's really important to also in the conversation as teachers, even non native speaking teachers trying to teach, you know, like how to culturally how to say something in a way that they will be perceived better. Right. Especially if they in the workplace and if they need to use email communication. I think it's really important to understand that it's a cultural difference and it doesn't mean that this is right and this is wrong. If you want to be better understood, if you want to get what you want right, like you can do it that way instead of this is the proper way, this is how you do it. Same thing with pronunciation. I think.

Yeah. I think we also need to question, really as a student, if you're an English learner or a teacher, I think we need to question what you said, that there is an appropriate way of being polite in English. There isn't. There is. The ways of being polite differ depending on where you might come from. Right. And the fact that, you know, say a native speaker from London might perceive you as being too direct, it doesn't mean that they are. Right. Maybe you're right. You know, that's because for you, you should be direct in that situation. Absolutely. Especially because English is used globally. There is no reason why we should look at a native speaker in London or in New York and how they communicate and treat that as the only default, correct way of communicating. Because it doesn't work like that. In fact, for example, you mentioned about pronunciation, you, you know, as an English learner, if you've always thought that having a native like accent is should be the only goal there is. There is really zero evidence that this will make you easier to understand in international context. In fact, the evidence that we have would suggest that native speakers, those perceived as native speakers, are very often the most difficult to understand in international context, where people come from different cultures. So, you know, if you're an English learner and you worry about having a foreign accent, don't worry about it. You know, you need to worry about pronouncing certain features of pronunciation correctly, right? But whether you speak with a Chinese accent, a Polish accent, or a New York accent, it doesn't really change anything, right?

And I think, like, learning pronunciation is such an important tool for confidence, for clarity, for getting what you want, and for feeling empowered. Because there is that part where you feel that everything is vague, like, you know, how it should sound, but it's not what comes out of your mouth, and that creates insecurity and that affects your fluency, right? Ultimately, your overall communication. So it's not you sounding like a native or not like a native. It's if there are some barriers in what comes out of your mouth and that affects your fluency and how you show up in a conversation, then there is an then that's the struggle, and this needs to be addressed. And sometimes, just like, having clarity around what it is that you need to say or how to say it, and. And you're absolutely right. Like, you know, like, there is no right and wrong. General American or received pronunciation is only one dialect out of hundreds of native dialects, right? Like, native English dialects. Who said that that is the correct one or the ideal or the norm of English. So that needs to be addressed as well. And funnily enough, like you mentioned, that, you know, when I speak to a global audience, when I'm not doing my job teaching, or when I feel someone is having a hard time communicating with me or understanding me, because I'm, you know, I have my own story of. Of acquiring the American accent because I was an actress and I needed to do it for my work. But a lot of times I tone it down and I go into my Israeli accent, so I'm. So I can be more clear, you know, so it's totally a tool, you.

Know, And I think another. Another really interesting thing is that I've met a lot of people who. That their accent is part of who they are. So we had this Colombian friend here in. In Levin, and he just spoke with this, like, really strong Latin accent. Imagine, like, Salma Hayek or a person like this. It was just who he was right. I think he would have sounded totally ridiculous if he. If he had put on a. I don't know, a British accent. Right. And I. I remember this Italian friend as well, whose English was perfect. Like, you know, he had all the vocabulary he wanted. He was completely fluent, but he just sounded totally Italian where he. When he spoke. But it was. It just felt like it was part of who he was, you know, like his personality and everything, the way he spoke, you know, which I think is. Is great. You know, most native speakers are proud of where they come from. They're proud of their accent. You know, try telling a person from Glasgow to change their accent, you know, you. You'll probably get. Beats it up, right? And it's the same for us, I think, you know, if you're watching this and say, I don't know, you're from China or from Italy or from wherever, and you feel like, oh, it's bad that I have a foreign accent. No, it isn't. That's where you're from.

You know, everyone has an accent. Yeah, exactly. There was this amazing challenge called New York accent on Instagram by this guy Niko, something I forgot. And there were like hundreds of people posting their, you know, sharing their video, speaking with a New York accent. And what you say really resonate. Like, they were so proud of it, and so many of them were so unclear according to standards. You don't see them going into, like, again, like, I think clarity is key and confidence. And if key, if you can get. If you get by. I know a lot of people with a very, very, you know, present accent, foreign accent, and they don't give a crap about how they sound, and they still show up great. And they influence people and people love them and they create rapport.

Poor.

So the whole struggle about pronunciation is again, like being clear, getting what you want, deliver your message, feel comfortable to show up in a conversation, but it's also the story that we're telling ourselves. And, and how we show up ultimately is what's important here. Okay, so let's go back to what we've started. What do you do as a teacher? First of all, focus on your advantages rather than the things that you think are your disadvantages. Right? Because if you constantly. That's where your focus goes, and that's what you will be reflecting or conveying. So focus on that.

And. And two was understand what speakerism is. And then the third step is to. Is to be able to kind of project who you are and sell yourself. Because ultimately, applying for jobs is is all a big sales pitch, really. You know, it's all about you being able to sell yourself and selling your unique advantages that you bring to the table that all those other teachers queuing up for this job don't have. So you need to take a very good, hard look at your cv, at your cover letter. You know, make sure, for example, that a lot of teachers just kind of send the same CV and cover letter to all the jobs they're applying for. But that's ridiculous. Like, I mean, no surprise that you're not getting any, any responses. I wouldn't respond if I, if I was the recruiter. You know, you need to take that job ad, read it carefully and make sure that the COVID letter and the CV really suits that job ad in question. That's really, really important. And I think, you know, if you're applying to recruiters who, you know, might accept mostly native speakers, I think you have to be, you have to be confident and you know, tell them why you think you're a great teacher. What are the advantages of being a non native speaker? Why being a native speaker doesn't make someone a better, a better teacher and tell them that. And I think one great way of doing it is, for example, calling them up is doing a video cv because.

They'Ll hear your voice thinking about that. Yeah. Like showing up on video, they'd be like, oh, that person is really confident. And they, you know, they come across so well on video.

Absolutely. And you know, I've recently done a study with recruiters on that kind of thoughts on recruiting native and non native speakers. And the number one worry that all these recruiters had about employing non native speakers was the proficiency of non native speakers. So if you clearly, you know, if, if you show them that you're proficient, you're, you're halfway, you're halfway there. Right. Beautiful.

And I'm just going to say that this is also relevant not just for teachers. Right. Like if you apply for a job, if in a global company organization for, you know, and the demand, especially if you don't live in the US and you apply for a global company or a global job in your country and they only look for native speakers. And I see that all the time in Israel. So I think like, don't just accept it and say, you know, there is nothing I can do but, but actually do all the things that you said and show them why that shouldn't be a challenge. Share a video or, you know, ask for a zoom, zoom call or something like that.

Yeah. And don't don't take, don't ever take no for an answer. You know, I was recently chatting on LinkedIn to this teacher who was asking me, you know, how I found a job in Belgium, because she could never find a job. And it turned out that, you know, when recruiters did not respond to her first time, she wouldn't follow up. And, and that's the worst thing to do. I mean, don't be a stalker. Don't call them every day, right, because you will come out, come across as a weirdo. But, but if they don't reply, give them a few days and follow up with another email or a phone call. Or if you're in the same city, go into that school, show your cv, talk to the receptionist, even try to, you know, get somebody higher up, because if you just give it to the receptionist, it will get lost in thousands of other cv, you know, but there are so many things that you can, you can do and never take no for an answer. Don't let anyone tell you that because of the first language that you speak, you're somehow worse. You're not.

Yeah, that is so important. And again, like, I'm going to mention it in case the people here forget when you are declined, right. Like when someone says no to you, first of all, it's not great to get a no right, to begin with. Oh, they haven't even seen. So it hits you hard sometimes and it meets you exactly in your place of insecurities, right? And then it's kind of like, it's like some sort of weird affirmation of all the worst things that you think about yourself, right? And then it's just like, see, I'm really not that good. Like, see, I really can't be a teacher. See, you know, you telling the person, telling themselves. So I think that, that, like, don't use it to support all the negative thoughts, you know, and go into a place that is very passive. What you're suggesting is become active. Don't take no for an answer. A lot of times it's just, you know, policies, but behind those policies, there are real people who are willing to listen and all they want is good teachers for their students. So maybe, like, there is a way around it.

Absolutely, yeah. I think there is a. There's a small percentage of recruiters who you shouldn't even bother with because they'll never hire you no matter what you do. But I think there's a large chunk of those recruiters who advertise for native speakers only, who would be willing to Hire somebody who's highly proficient, qualified and so on, and who kind of walks in, is confident and so on. So I think that's, that's super important.

What would you say about, or what do you think about companies that use native speakerism in their marketing, which means promoting the school and showing that it's high quality school simply by the fact that their teachers are native speakers. So they don't talk about what they give, they don't talk about qualifications. They only say we have native speaking teachers expecting people to understand that that means that the school is high level. So what would you say about that?

Yeah, I think, I think it's a very cheap marketing trick that exploits a lack of knowledge that many students have about what it means to be a good language teacher and a successful language learner. And I think those schools, ultimately, they're creating the demand as well and they're fueling it. Because if you constantly advertise your school as we have native speakers, then you shouldn't be surprised that all your students ask for native speakers. Right? Because that's how you're selling yourself, right?

Yeah.

And I think there are so many other things that I'm so much more important, you know, like the teachers qualifications. I think it's a great selling point that your school is international. You know, I've worked in schools where they had teachers from like 10 different countries and that's fantastic as a student because you know, you'll get a teacher from London, from Poland, from China, from India, from Brazil, you know, and it's, it's just great. I think, and, and also as a student, I think you need to know that a lot of teachers in, in our industry basically do what is called a TEFL course. It's basically a four week course. Right. And after four weeks they're qualified and as if you're, if they are a native speaker, they can just walk in to any job. And I think as a student you need to take a step back and think, okay, what do I need from a good teacher? What should my good teacher have? And I think very few of us would hire a lawyer with a four week certificate. I wouldn't, I wouldn't go to a gym trainer that has a four week certificate. I want somebody, you know, who knows what they're, what they're doing. And I took a four week certificate like that at the beginning after my bachelor's degree in English language teaching. And you know, you know, you're not really qualified. I mean, let's be, let's be honest about this. So I think as a student you need to be aware of what makes a really good teacher. It's super important for me. I don't know what about what it is for you, but for me really, I would never ever want to learn a language from somebody who hasn't learned a foreign language. I don't care where you're from. But, but if you, if you haven't even reached intermediate in another language, I don't care really. There's nothing that you can teach me about language learning. You know, as somebody who's learned six foreign languages, I want somebody who's, who's been there, who's done it, you know, who knows what it takes, how to overcome the challenges and so on. Who can coach me? It's a bit like, you know, imagine going to the gym and getting a trainer who last did a push up five years ago. I mean you don't want to have a trainer like that, Right?

Right. Absolutely right. And, and I think that this is such an important point of, and a reminder because really is the problem is that because of the marketing, because of the speak like a native, you know, ideal, then learners only ask, mainly ask for native speaking teachers, right? And like already thinking that that is a quality assurance that means that they're going to be good teachers. And it's so true. I mean I've never taken any course, I've never learned how to teach English and you know, I have, you know, I've taught thousands of people and for those of you watching, let us know in the comments. So we can also talk about that what you think a good teacher should have, what are the qualifications or the qualities a good teacher should have. And then you know, we can see like I can tell that it's not just sounding just like a native because that is simply not enough. Like you said, if you don't, if you've never learned a language, if you never dealt with the frustrations. Because learning a language is not just grammar and pronunciation, right? And let like, let's not even talk about the fact that native speakers, they, grammar is intuitive for them so they don't understand the logic of it. So to teach it in a way that is clear and simple, like they will have to explain it many, many, many times to see that it doesn't work and try something else. To see that it doesn't work and try something else, right? Because what's intuitive? Oh no, you have to say it like that. Why? I don't know. Because usually that's the case when it's intuitive. And if you learn another language, then you understand how the brain works, you understand the frustrations. And but going back to like learning a language is not just pronunciation, grammar, vocabulary, put it together, speak. That's it. It's also the mental, you know, the barriers, the psychological elements that if you haven't experienced it, it's going to be really hard for you to pull your students from where they're at to where they want to be. Right? And I think, I think this is absolutely. Yeah.

I mean, one thing, you know, to come back to that idea. For example, you know, I teach academic writing and I've gone through exactly the same process that my students are going through. I had to learn academic writing as somebody who doesn't speak English as a first language. I had to learn how to publish papers, how to write a PhD thesis in English. And now I feel, you know, all those experiences, apart from my ability to teach in general and teach English, you know, that's that experience of having gone through that same process. I think it's a great thing because I can empathize with the students. I kind of understand what struggles they're going through. And to give you another example, I would feel a little bit like a cheat if I was positioning myself as an expert in say, pitching or writing business proposals because I haven't really done it. And I think that's really important as well because you might have learned something in a book that that's how it's done. But if you haven't done it in a real world, I'm not, I'm not sure, you know, that there is this practical aspect of it that's really important.

It's like I see sometimes Instagram accounts or they write to me, you know, trying to advertise, like, you know, we help Instagram accounts grow and they have like, you know, less than a thousand followers. And I'm like, do you want me to trust you to do the work if I can't see proof? Right. And for example, like what you said for if I were to write a paper right now, I would so much rather go and learn from you. Not only someone who has gone through, you know, like the process of figuring out academic writing, but also a non native speaker, you know, who knows the struggle of people who need to overcome those barriers and put it in the format of academic writing. So for me, it would be a no brainer to be like, no, he's the guy for me. Let's see what some of the people say. A teacher learns a language he or she teaches, has the experience on how to learn and explain to the students with more power.

Right.

Nella says, right, someone who has gone through the process, you need a good method, like to teach and to understand the levels of each student. I love that. I'm gonna, I'm gonna stay here on that for a sec because this is so true. And I'm not gonna say like, I think there are excellent teachers who are native speakers. Right. Like, not to say that native speaking teachers are under qualified because they don't, you know, they haven't learned the language. But I think it's so important to understand that it doesn't matter if you're native or non native. You need to see who your student is and to adapt to their needs and to create like it. To help them understand what their individual path instead of you come to me, this is my language. You know, here's how I can come to you. Joanna says teachers need to be empathetic. What do you think about that?

Yeah, yeah, No, I think so. I definitely think so. And sometimes. So to come back to the example of academic writing, I, for example, personally, maybe because I was already very proficient, I was an English teacher when I came into kind of the world of academic writing. I never had to struggle with it, like, like really painfully. I never, I never had that. So I sometimes find that, you know, I find it more difficult to empathize perhaps with people who, who are really, really struggling. Right. So I think that, that, that same experience is, is really important for that. And I think it's really important in a, in a teacher, you know, to try to engage students.

Maybe if you can talk a little bit about teaching English as a lingua franca. Right. Instead of speak like a native general American or received pronunciation.

Sure. So basically, you know, English has, is very different now from a language like Polish, say, or French or Spanish, which, you know, you're probably, if you're learning Polish, we can safely assume that you're learning it because you have a Polish girlfriend or boyfriend. You know, you want to kind of connect with that culture and those peoples. But now, you know, ask yourself, why are you speaking English? Right. You're probably speaking English because you want access to the media, to the global world. You want to go on holidays to China and be able to talk to local people. Right. So people don't learn English anymore exclusively to interact with the native speakers of that language. Of course, there are some people who, you know, who are going to move to say, New York and they really, really want to Blend in with them. But your average student, I think, has very different needs, you know, so English has become this global lingua franca, global international language. And I think this should change how we learn and teach the language. So we've been talking a lot about pronunciation, and that's something that, you know, you do a lot on your channel. So if we take the example of learning or teaching pronunciation, you know, normally you would think about it that, okay, the closer I get to a standard native speaker model, the better more people will understand me, right? And that's certainly true if you are interacting with a native speaker from a particular region. They might be able to understand you more if you speak like them, right? But now if 80% of the people who use English are not native speakers, then you know that that notion of being easily easy to understand is very different, right? So. So you need to focus on different things. And for example, this idea of having to attain a particular native speaker accent doesn't make any sense anymore. There are many pronunciation features that are less important to have a clear voice. So say maybe, maybe you've been struggling a lot with the sound like in teeth, right? Or the. Actually this sound is not really important for clear voice. And a lot of native speakers pronounce it as F or T. People in Ireland very often say tree for both the thing in the wood and number three, right. In London, they'll say F like tooth, right? And brava. So, and these sounds, you know, you can pronounce them however you want and your voice will still be clear, right. So I think your priorities might need to shift to focus on, okay, how can I be easy to understand rather than how can I speak like a native speaker, right.

Sometimes we spend so much time and energy on like the nuances, okay, the kitten, kitten instead of kitten, right? And. And I know of a, or the flap T or stuff like that. And listen, like, it's also okay for people who have reached a certain level and they just, they're just in love with being able to control it and like the smoothness. And that was me. So I will never judge anyone who is at a certain level where they have the time, they have like the, the motivation to do it. But at the same time, a lot of people who are, let's say, just starting out with learning pronunciation, they end up focusing on the wrong things because they're being told or they think that this is what they should focus on, right? Whereas putting all that practice time onto things that will help them reach clarity, like identifying and making sure that the primary stress is correct, Right? Like putting the focus on the right word in the sentence and sounds that may come across differently. So that would be more important than saying the car instead of the car.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, there is a lot of similar aspects in other sort of language areas that you're learning or teaching. And again, they all boil down to the idea that it's no longer, you know, necessarily speaking like a particular native speaker that will make you easy to understand. You know, you might know a lot of idioms or phrases that people in a particular native speaking country use, but very often, if you're interacting with five different nationalities, people will be confused by you using that phrases rather than, you know, understand you really well. So it's really important. You mentioned that before, Hader to adapt, be it your pronunciation, your vocabulary, you know, to, to. To continue communicating and be an effective communicator.

Absolutely. Yeah. Let's, let's take one question.

All right.

What do you think about the labels native and non native? Okay, this is a good question. What do you think about the labels native and non native? Should they be changed or. We focus on dispelling the meaning attached.

Okay, so I'm going to be fairly brief here because we could be talking about it for an, for an hour. And I've got a video on YouTube where I kind of talk for a long time about it. You can check it out. But basically I'm kind of in two minds about it. So on the one hand, I kind of feel that if we stop using the labels, the discrimination is not going to go away. So imagine we stopped using the terms men and women or male and female. It doesn't mean that sexism is going to disappear. It's not right. And I think it's very similar here that, you know, just taking the labels away or substituting them for something else like L1, L2user. I'm not sure if it's going to make this systemic discrimination disappear. I don't, I don't think it is. On the other hand, I do think that there are many places where there is. It's completely inappropriate to use those labels. So in job ads, they shouldn't say native speaker. They should state the level of proficiency. So, for example, somebody should be on C1 or C2 level, or advanced, fully proficient, whatever you want to say. Right?

Yeah.

In publicity materials from language schools. There's no, there's no place for that because that further promotes it. As teachers, I think we should be wary as well of using those labels. If I see so many native speakers who use the first thing that they say on the profile is native speaker. You know, rather than say qualified or I don't know, I help business. Yeah, people do this better. No, they say native speaker and this just, you know, further perpetuates this whole idea.

And Absolutely, I agree.

That's another place where I think it's inappropriate to use it. But then there are places like, for example, research. You know, I do research on native speakerism, on discrimination that those perceived as non native speakers suffer. And how else am I going to do it if I can't use those terms? I need to question them, you know, say perceived, put them in inverted comma and so on. But I need to be using those terms as people do who study sexism, for example. So. Sorry if that was a very long answer.

Loved it. Okay, so, Marek, first of all, thank you so much for spending this time with us. I know that you're very busy, so I really appreciate taking the time to talk to us about that and talk to my audience. Is there anything else you'd like to add or to say before we go?

Well, first of all, thank. Thank you for inviting me. I really love your channel and you're doing some amazing work. So I was delighted to come on your channel. I hope people enjoyed it. And whether you're a learner or a teacher, don't let anyone ever tell you that because of the language that you speak your worse or you're not good enough for a certain job. You are, you are. I'm. I'm sure you are.

Okay, great. Marek, thank you so, so much. And thank you for all your hard work and for raising awareness around this very important topic. Thank you.

Thank you.

Sa.