329. Why is it so hard to be funny in a second language? (and other fun things) with Luke from Luke's English Podcast

Welcome to the Influency Podcast. I'm Hadar and this is episode number 329. And today we are going to have a beautiful conversation with Luke from Luke's English podcast.

Hey everyone, it's Hadar. Thank you so much for joining me today. I have an exciting episode for you because today I get to interview Luke from Luke's English podcast and he is such a fun guy and so interesting. This was one of my favorite conversations to record. So Luke, if you don't know him, has a podcast called Luke's English Podcast and He published over 800 episodes about storytelling and humor and English lessons and conversations. And it is so rich and and interesting and accessible for learners of English and for anyone who is interested in speaking about learning a second language. Luke is also a stand up comedian and to me, by the way, that is the bravest thing to do to be a stand up comedian. But this is also why he incorporates a lot of humor into his work and into his interviews because we have had a few laughs together as well. So I'm sorry, super thrilled to introduce you to Luke. If you don't know him just yet, I'm going to post the link to his podcast and his YouTube channel. By the way, there is another interview with me on his channel that is going to be published at the same time. So go check it out and be sure to subscribe to his YouTube channel and podcast. All right, my friends, let's go ahead and listen to our interview.

Hi, Luke.

Hello, Hadar. Hi. Very nice to be speaking to you. How are you?

I'm thrilled to have you here. I've been following your podcast for a while and it is so exciting to have this time to talk to you and learn more about you and also to tell our audience about you and a bit more of the side that they are not aware of, which is the person behind the voice. So hi.

Yeah, thank you so much for inviting me onto your show. I've been having a look at your videos as well and I'm going to interview you as well for my show after we've had this conversation. So I'm very curious to kind of find out lots of things from you and basically just get all of your language learning secrets in one single video for my show. Just like just steal all of your know how.

Absolutely possible in under 10 minutes.

Yeah, no, not possible.

60 seconds. Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

So yeah, for those of you watching, we are going to have an episode on Luke's podcast and YouTube channel. So we will share all the Links later on for you guys to be able to watch it on his channel. All right, Luke. Yes, I actually have. I want you to introduce yourself like you usually do in an interview, but before that, Sergey from my team. He is an avid listener of your podcast, and he said that you have a Russian joke that you like to tell, and I am going to ask you to get started with that.

Oh, my goodness, Sergey, what are you doing to me? Okay, so it's not a joke that I tell again and again. In fact, quite the opposite. It's a joke that I told once and then I told a friend of mine on the show, and it's a joke that I did once on stage and people didn't understand. And then every single time I explain it, more new people don't understand it, and they ask me to explain it again. And then when I explain it again, there's a whole fresh new group of people who don't understand it. So I'm basically stuck in a sort of weird loop of explaining people, misunderstanding, and me re explaining. Some people completely misunderstand it, like, in a really high level of misunderstanding. So I'll tell you the story as briefly as I can.

Right, okay. I'll try to concentrate and be on my, like. Like, turn on my joke radar, because I'm a knock, knock, joke kind of person. So you might have to explain the joke to me as well.

This is really that kind of joke. That's the thing. It's really not clever. It's just a word joke. It's just a pun. And there's no other sophisticated level of, like, extra meaning. So. So I do stand up as well. As well as doing my podcast and teaching English. I do stand up as well. So a few years ago, I was on stage at the beginning of a show with a friend of mine, and he was at the back of the room. I was on first. And, you know, it's typical in stand up at the beginning of the show, you do crowd work. You kind of speak to the audience. Now, I live in France, and often at shows that I do in English, you get French people. You get people from different countries coming in because it's in English. So at the beginning of the show, I was doing the typical stuff of like, oh, where are you from? You know, blah, blah, blah, what do you do? Or, you know, why did you come here? For work. Oh, good, I'm glad someone works here. You know, the usual stuff. And a couple of people came in late and. And I sort of, you know, had to deal with that. And I said, oh, you know, you're a bit late anyway, come in. Where are you from? And they said, we're Russian. And I said, well, you weren't Russian to come here, were you?

Hey, everyone, it's Hadari. Thank you so much for joining me today.

I have an exciting.

I'm very glad that you got it right. That's it. That's the joke I get to interview now.

I said, I told you, I get silly jokes. I love silly language jokes.

It's a. Yeah, exactly. It's just a language joke because rushing, meaning being in a hurry, and Russian, they sound very similar. Right, right. So I said that, and I was quite pleased with myself, you know, that I came up with it on the spot. And I thought that quite good. No one in the room got the joke. It was just tumbleweeds blew across the stage, you know, And I thought to myself, right, okay. In a situation like this, you can either just carry on or sometimes it's fun to kind of flag up the fact that you did a joke and no one in the room understood it because they're probably trying to understand it in a second language. And sometimes that's funny.

Yeah.

So I said, oh, I. I just told a very funny joke and you missed it. Let me just run that by you again. So they in late, and I said, where are you from? And they said, we're Russian. I said, well, you weren't Russian to come here, were you? Because you're late. Zero. Nothing from the audience. They were just like, waiting for the show to begin kind of thing. And meanwhile, my friend Paul was at the back of the room completely in stitches, falling off his chair. So then I told. Then Paul and I were on the podcast with our friend Amber. We're often on the show together. And Paul said, oh, my God, you should. Amber, you've got to hear about what happened to Luke on stage. It's hilarious. So we talked. We explained to Amber what happened. She had a good laugh about it. And then I got comments. Comments in my comment section saying I didn't understand the Russian joke. What did you. What did he say about Russian people? Can you explain? And I was like, oh. So I did explain it again, you know, responding to those comments. And then as I said before, I got new comments from people who didn't understand. And so I created a YouTube video just explaining the joke. And then, of course, in the comments section of the YouTube video, there's comments. And even one person said, I think the problem here is that for Russian people, the Word rushing and Russian sound the same. And I was like, that's not the problem, that's the joke. It's not a problem. That's the whole point. I even got an email from one person who was like, what are you doing? Who completely got the wrong end of the stick and thought I was making some critical statement about Russian people. And I was like, no, no, I'm not into that. No, no, you misunderstood. And she was so mortified when I told her, no, no, it's just a word joke. That's it.

I think that when it comes to humor, and I have a lot more questions about that because I know that you use humor a lot in your teaching and in your life. I think this is such a pain point. Like you explained, first of all, understanding humor, especially language related. So that's one thing and another thing, being able to use humor when speaking, which is a big part. Like, especially people who like to use humor in their first language and they feel like it doesn't translate or they don't know how to use and they're like, there is the cultural nuance or language related nuances. So if humor for those of you watching is a pain point for you, then we will definitely discuss this more. But Luke, please tell us about you and your work for those who don't know you.

So, yeah, I'm an English teacher. I'm from the UK and I've been teaching English for over 20 years. And then 14 years ago, around the same time I think that you started making content, I started a podcast for learners of English and I used all my creative skills to come up with a name for it and ended up with Luke's English podcast.

I think it's so good. It's very direct and you know what.

It is, it does exactly, you know, it does what it says on the tin, you know, so, yeah, and in my episodes, I use my teaching skills. I also try to include, as you said, some humor in there. And I cast my net very wide in terms of topics and things that I do. I like to do all possible things in my episodes. And the main aim is to essentially let learners of English around the world listen to more English long term on a regular basis. And I try to help people to connect with English regularly. And, you know, I use humor to do that, you know, but I can't help it. You know, it's not really a conscious decision like I will use humor. It just kind of happens. And, and so, yeah, and I've been doing that now for 14 years. And still going. And, and these days, more recently, I've been doing more YouTube stuff as well. Just sort of video myself while recording episodes.

Is there a difference when you feel that the camera's on?

Yeah, yeah, I definitely feel less comfortable.

Yeah.

Like I'm pretty self conscious. Yeah. Like the way I've described it is like the camera is like HAL 9000 in the film 2001 A Space Odyssey. This kind of unblinking lens just looking at you. And it's, it's pretty weird. Like in, in classrooms and on stage, in stand up, it's a different thing because you can see people and you get to gauge people's reactions. You can kind of interact with them, you know, and stuff like that. But with the camera, it's, it's, it's a, it's a slightly harder thing. I'm getting used to it. But that's one of the reasons I liked audio in the beginning and I still do, is that, yeah, you don't have that self conscious element. And, and when you're on video, you know that people are kind of judging your appearance, you know, and like thinking, you know, and you see that, you know, people write comments about, oh, you know, I think you should shave your beard or then another person after I've shaved.

Always have something to say.

Yeah, yeah. And it's like, okay, so that, that's.

Hard to please everyone.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. You shouldn't try to please everyone. You can't please all the people all the time. And you know, that's not the, that's not why my, my facial hair exists anyway. Right. It's not there to like, please, hopefully. I don't know why, actually. I don't know what the purpose is of facial hair. You know, why does it. I don't know, maybe we need to speak to some evolutionary biologist or something who can explain it. But I don't know. Why do, why do hair on our face? I don't know. I quite like it.

I have some, I have some assumptions, but I'll keep them to myself and. Okay, but, but I, I have to, I have to say that for me the transition was different because I started with YouTube videos and then I transitioned to podcasting. And for me, what was different is people said, oh, your podcast voice is so different from your YouTube voice. So for you it was about your appearance. For me it was about my voice because I, when I speak to the camera, I have a tendency to project, so my voice is a little different. Like I'm speaking in, in front of an audience. And like on the podcast, when you're. It's just you and the mic, it feels like you're in a small room drinking wine with a friend. You know, it's very different.

It's very nice, isn't it?

Yeah, it is.

Yeah. That's what that. Again, another thing I love about audio is that kind of, you're listening to a kind of radio show, a late night radio show. It's, it's lovely to kind of get close to the microphone. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's fun to play around with your voice. I like the, you know, audio for me is like reading a book, whereas. I was gonna say audio is like reading a book, but video is like watching a film. That, no, this comparison doesn't work. But there's something pleasant about audio. It lets you can kind of let your mind wander. There's a bit more imagination on the, on the, on the side of the listener. Whereas with video, the, the, the, the. The audience have to just focus on, you know, they can't do something else while they're listening.

Right.

Yeah. I still love audio. I think it's still my preferred medium.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I also, like, there is something very intimate, like I said, between, you know, like knowing that you're in the earbuds of someone and it's not just like that visual experience. Okay. So speaking of voice, and not just your physical voice, but your voice as a podcaster, as an English teacher, you know, listening to your, to your podcast episodes, it seems to me like you have a very direct and simple and organized way to communicate with your audience. And even when you do talk at the beginning and kind of like in, you know, I was listening to a particular episode. I'll talk about it in a second. Where you said, like, this is an unusual intro. I talk a little bit more than usual here, but still to me it felt very organized. So as a listener, you told me. Exactly. You navigated me through my thought pattern as to what to expect. And as a content creator, I know how important it is and also how challenging it is. And this is why I think people really enjoy your episodes. It's not just the content, it's also how you communicate that. Now, you've been doing this for 14 years, so I'm assuming it was not a natural thing at the beginning. So you had to learn how to speak specifically to your audience in a way that resonates with them in the best possible way. Can you talk to me a little bit about this process and what was working for you at the beginning and not working. And what is working for you now?

That's a really good. Really good question. Like, really incisive question. I wonder. I think, because when I first started my podcast, I had been teaching for eight, nearly 10 years. And so I actually applied a lot of the things that I'd learned from being a teacher to the podcast and the things I'd been doing as a teacher. You know, they. They were going quite well. You know, I felt like quite a successful teacher in the sense that I felt like students enjoyed my lessons and things, and I sort of took that approach and applied it to the podcast. So in lessons, I would often start, rather than just having a cold start to the lesson, there'd always be a sort of a softer start where you bring everyone into the class, rather than starting with the language point at the beginning, you kind of ask people how they are in the morning and maybe even tell a little story about something that happened that morning or something like that, or just sort of do a bit of crowd work with the. With the class, and that sort of sets up the right atmosphere, and then everyone's engaged and everyone's sort of involved. And so I found that doing this, a similar thing on the podcast had the same effect. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't really know. It's hard to say. Kind of consciously, it's just sort of something. I just feel that maybe. Maybe as a listener to other podcasts as well, kind of. Those are the things. Those are the moments I really enjoy when listening to other people's shows is that sense of that intimate relationship you get with the. With the podcaster. So I always tried to kind of recreate that feeling. And, yeah, I guess it sort of has come naturally. I mean, there was a period where maybe I would ramble on too much in the introduction. So I've kind of taken it as far as it'll go in the sense of, like, going on and on and on without getting to the point just to bring people in. And now I've kind of, I suppose, refined it, where I can kind of spend five minutes doing that kind of introduction. And it. It still. It maintains that level of organization, but also is natural and engaging as well.

Yeah, yeah, because it seems to me like I know that when people are emotionally involved, and usually that has to do with storytelling or with humor, two things that you talk about a lot in your teaching and, of course, you include in your work, when people are emotionally engaged or they have a narrative that they follow, it's easier for them to learn, ultimately. So I think a combination of all of that. And you know, I'm speaking about it because for the learners watching this, sometimes it feels like, no, this is not English. It's not like something that I should tune into. And I think that when you allow yourself to also include all that aspect of storytelling and all the behind the scenes and also getting connected emotionally to the person who teaches you, you're more likely to learn, not only enjoy it, but your brain will have a better capacity at actually retaining the information. Would you agree with that?

Yeah. Yeah, I think so. When a person decides to learn English, they kind of, you know, whatever, they go to classes or they start listening to content, and the first thing that's in their mind is learning English. So, you know, the whole thing is framed for them in the context of, you know, feed me language, you know, kind of spoon feed me language and explain to me what the language point is and all that sort of thing. But ultimately, you know, language is there to communicate ideas and feelings and to share emotions and. And all that sort of thing. And arguably, you know, there's several ways to. To learn a language. You can learn it from the bottom up, which is where you learn the kind of mechanics of the language. You know, you learn the grammar and the phonology and the, you know, the vocabulary and stuff like that. You build it in that sense. But then another approach is to kind of just focus on meaning and focus on message, and the language learning happens as a consequence. I think it's probably a combination of those two things that, that really works. But ultimately, yeah, if someone is emotionally engaged or you engage their curiosity or their sense of humor, then you're winning, really, because then there's a subconscious level of language learning happening and there's also. It's feeding their motivation, which is perhaps the most important thing.

Yes.

Because, you know, motivation is basically what is going to make sure that you spend more time with the language. And you do it in a motivate, in a. In a sort of engaging way. You know, you know that there's something in the formula of language learning that it's basically time and practice.

Right.

But attitude is really important too, and positivity. And in order to get enough time and practice in there, you need to be motivated, you need to actually want to do it. And it works best when you don't really. When you're not really counting the minutes or counting the time. And if it's just suddenly part of an enjoyable process, then that's great. Some, some people might. You know, there's quite a lot of people out there who assume that language learning should be a difficult and sort of painful and punishing experience. I mean, it kind of is naturally, to an extent, in the way that we have to go out of our comfort zones and make mistakes and things. But it's quite refreshing, I guess, for a lot of people that language learning can be a fun and natural feeling thing.

I think it has to be. And I think like we've been conditioned to think that because that's how it has been, you know, in school. And you are being punished for mistakes and you lose grades and you're not developing according to the system. And I think that really messed us up as learners because ultimately it create, it created this good and bad paradigm where it's like either you do well and you don't make mistakes, then you succeed, or you actually get messy and you make mistakes and then you fail. That is the, the assumption.

Yeah.

And when you learn a language, it's impossible to get it perfect right away. It's impossible to get a perfect period as a speaker of a second language. But I think that because we have these ideas instilled in us, it is very hard to move away from it. And I think that content like yours and I really focus on mindset as well. And I know a lot of other teachers really try to get people to change that perception because I believe that exactly like you, when there is suffering involved or the feeling of shame or humiliation, there is no learning. There's just resistance and avoidance. And that is not, it's not productive.

Yeah, I mean that's, you know, academics have, have studied this and written about it. You know, about things called the affective filter, which is exactly as you said, that feeling of shame or self consciousness or nervousness. And those things really block the acquisition of language. So finding ways to break that down is really important. And you know. Yeah. Like telling a story or making people laugh. Just important ways of doing that. Yeah.

So speaking of things that we. That is our responsibility as teachers to do and content creators so obviously to create a positive environment for our students to learn. But I notice that when you create content, you also feel socially responsible for educating your audience. So it's not like you only deal with English related content. You talk about social issues and political situations like not always, but when something important happens, you address it. Now, as a content creator who is also. I also feel like I have a responsibility to address certain things and injustice or things that happen that I feel like I need to state my opinion and to take a stance. I know that it's dangerous because you are bound to get a lot of negative feedback and backlash. So I wanted to hear from you how that has been for you because I know that you do touch some subjects that are like, not English related. Why is it important to you to do that and how are you dealing with a outcome?

It's a bit of a struggle. But basically my thinking is so I've got a platform, I've got lots of people listening to me. And so to an extent there is a sense of maybe I should use that for, you know, I should probably try to, you know, that there's some level of responsibility, maybe. It's a tricky thing because I really don't know quite where I stand on it because every time I do an episode like that I feel very conflicted about it. For example, if I talk about, you know, like, I think probably you're referring to the one where I talked about what's, what's been happening in Iran and I, I've talked about other things in the past. Normally I will talk about the UK and I'll talk about British politics and I'll be, you know, fairly opinionated about that. You know, I've done lots of episodes about things. Yeah, it, it's generally safer to talk about your own country. And I've said on my podcast before that so if I, if I criticize the uk, people are just like eating popcorn, they're just loving it. Yeah, this is great. But as soon as I comment on another country, people, I don't know quite why, but they don't, most people are fine with it and they're great and they understand, you know, what I'm trying to do. I'm not like a, I'm not really that heavy handed with it. But then there's always some people who just like, I don't know, it doesn't sit right with them. So yeah, it's a really tricky thing. But basically I kind of thought, well, since I've got a platform, I've got a lot of international listeners, I feel like maybe I should try to flag up situations. But I feel very uncomfortable about it because there's always that sense that I may be getting things wrong and maybe I don't have the correct information and maybe I'm going to get a lot of pushback. You know, I don't like to receive emails from people, even politely worded ones, but just criticism. Yeah, it's, it's difficult. You know, if I'M fairly sensitive person, you know, and as a podcaster and creator, you know, I use that sensitivity to kind of create the right connection with my audience. But it's a double edged sword in the sense that it, I can be quite sensitive to people's responses. And you know, people online, they don't realize there's that filter, that online filter.

Yeah.

And they think that their comment is really nothing, it's just a drop in the ocean. But you know, every single comment has an impact. And for some reason as human beings we, we do get affected by the negative things. More, more than, more than the positive stuff is like, yeah, okay, great, great, great, great. You know, but then one negative thing will bother you all day. It's very strange. Yeah. So, yeah, so sometimes I'll talk about certain issues and things going on in the world just because I feel a sense of responsibility because I've got an audience. And also people write to me. Like I had a lot of Iranian listeners contacting me and saying, you know, this is what's happening. Please can you tell the world, because the journalists aren't allowed to come in and comment on this and our Internet is being completely blocked and controlled. So use your voice to, you know, to tell people what's going on. So I thought, right, I'll try and do that. Difficult. I mean, I did an episode before about it and I didn't publish it because I just felt so uncomfortable about it. And then I was like, no, I've got to do this. So I don't know.

Yeah, I think sometimes when you know the right side of things according to your values and worldviews, I agree that sometimes it's a small price to pay. Not small, because we, we do get emotionally affected, but it's a small price to pay to show a large part of your audience that you stand with them. Because I know how important it is for them. So I think it's appreciated. I, I appreciate it very much. And I do think that as English teachers representing so many people around the world, we do need to use our voice wisely. I don't see that happening enough, especially when there is like a lot of injustice in the world because of that fear. And, and it's, it's tough, it's hard. It's funny you said that. For you, the easiest thing for you, for you to talk about is your country. For me, that's the hardest thing. I'm from Israel and like, no matter what, like, I have a very clear side that I, that I, that I always share on Social media and in my videos. But no matter what I share, there will always be a backlash. Like I have to mentally and emotionally prepare for every single thing that I say or share. And it's tough.

Yeah, that must be, that must be tough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We live in complicated times. I mean, ultimately all I'm trying to say, you know, it's like a pretty sort of basic thing is like, let's just give peace a chance and peace and love, man, and you know, let's just be nice to each other. And, and, and it's very, that's, that's very sort of naive maybe, but ultimately that's all I'm, I'm trying to say. And you know, there's so many times in the world cases where, you know, people are being persecuted or there's authoritarianism going on and you know, that's, that's, that seems to me to be sort of poisonous. And so. Yeah, yeah, that's all.

And, and I think because I know that people who are going to watch it be watching this within those people there are a lot of content creators and I think it's important that we talk about how we experience that negative criticism and ultimately that even though we get it and we're affected by it, it doesn't stop us from pursuing our mission and sharing what we believe in. I think so. Also, like, I want to make sure that this is, this is the message that is important for me to send out and I think for you as well.

Yeah, yeah. We have to just keep calm and carry on.

Okay, so moving from tragic events around the world to comedy and humor. Let's talk about that because I know that this is a big part of your teaching. We talked about at the beginning. Why is it so hard to use humor in a second language?

Yeah, why is it hard to use humor in a second language and difficult to understand it? Often humor involves wordplay, of course. Right. It uses very subtle word play to sort of say two things at the same time. I mean, like my Russian joke. Rushing, rushing Russian, you know, and it's, it's quite difficult to. A joke works when your brain suddenly understands two different meanings at the same time and your brain kind of goes, you know, and, and laughter happens. That's one, that's one level. When it's language related humor and it's very sophisticated. You need to be able to understand two things simultaneously and that's very difficult. That's often the last thing that you learn. But then there are other types of humour which maybe are a little Easier to do. And that's just about having a certain attitude and having a playful attitude and so on. That's usually a little easier. But yeah, doing humour in another language is difficult mainly because it requires a lot of linguistic control.

So naturally I would say, right, like probably prosody, the intonation, the pace, the pauses, something that you need to feel comfortable with and give yourself permission, which often doesn't happen. Like a lot of times when people speak, especially at a certain stage in their learning experience, where you just want to get the words out. And with comedy, you know how you kind of like lead to the joke and the pause and the length of the pause and the rhythm that is different between English and your first language, even between dialects of English. Right. So I think that has to do with that confidence as well.

Yeah, definitely. I mean I, I live in France and so French is a language that I struggle with. You know, it's a language I have to use and you know, it's, it's a different story in French. You know, I, the person I want to be, which is this kind of relaxed, easygoing, funny person, someone who is basically funny all the time. And that's, that's not intentional. That's just kind of how I'm designed. You know, I think maybe it comes out of social awkwardness or wanting to put people at ease. And so I'm always making fun and poking fun of reality, you know, that I see around me. It's so hard to do that in French. You know, I'll be making a joke, I'll be making a, I'll making comments that are supposed to be humorous. The, the purpose is to just make people laugh and relax around me. People just don't notice. So. Yeah.

So is that a cultural thing or a linguistic thing?

It's, it's a little bit of both. It's mostly a linguistic thing, I think. So, yeah, maybe People have got slightly different approaches to humor in different countries. So in the uk, I know we're not unique, but in the UK humor is a huge part of our social life and it's just a. Ever present thing, it's just constantly there and people are always ready to interpret what you're saying as being intended to be funny, you know, and that's one, that's a cultural thing. I've noticed that some other cultures are not necessarily tuned into that kind of thing, whereas in the UK we can just be talking about virtually nothing. But the whole purpose of the conversation is to have a funny, light hearted conversation and to be ironic and it's. There's always a place for it. You know, in business meetings, in the lift, when you bump into your neighbor, you'll just say one or two funny comments. And maybe other cultures are less prepared for that. I've maybe noticed that in France, you know, people sort of take what you're saying a bit more literally or something.

Right. Irony is not that dominant in the language.

Yeah, perhaps, but maybe, maybe not. Maybe it's just, again, my lack of linguistic control or the language barrier, which just means that people aren't quite picking up on the codes. But yes, certainly a lot of it is about linguistic control in all the areas that we've mentioned. You know, like subtle shades of meaning in grammar, sentence structure and using the certain words, not just word jokes, but just as you said, the way you pause, the way you set things up. So, yeah, it's often the last thing that you learn, isn't it, as a language learner? You know, you can kind of build your English and then you can, you know, we use, we use language for different purposes and some of those purposes are pretty straightforward, like making requests or, you know, complaining or persuading. But then making people laugh and being humorous is actually extremely sophisticated and quite mysterious thing.

Yeah.

And yeah, so you really need a.

A level of confidence, like belief in yourself and your ability beyond the linguistic aspect or cultural knowledge. I think it's just giving yourself permission because it's so scary to tell a joke in your first language as well. You know, from the example that you shared where you tell a joke and no one gets it, like now you have to explain it. So, like, people avoid experiencing that in their first language. I think that in a second language that's easy. Even more the case. So what would you tell someone who wants to start including more humor or let's say, work on their humor in English? What would you recommend?

I don't know really. I think that. So listen to lots of humorous stuff, you know, learn the rhythms and cadences of, of humor in English. So that means probably watch a lot of stand up, watch a lot of those sorts of humorous panel shows and things like that and just sort of get the sense of what, what tends to work and how humorous speech sound, what it sounds like, and also adopt a certain attitude. And for me, the humorous attitude is one that is generous and one that is designed to put everyone else at ease and is designed to kind of make people enjoy themselves. So think of it more as an attitude rather than as specific jokes, you know, or specific sort of structures in language, it's more just a general attitude which is to be light hearted and not take things too seriously and to be generous as well. I think humor is about being generous. It's about, you know, trying to please the people around you, trying to entertain people and trying to kind of create a nice friendly atmosphere in which laughter is, is, is, is common.

I think that's such a, such good piece of advice because when you think about being funny, you often think about yourself and your experience. And I think that shifting it to them, making them feel good and light hearted and everything that you just shared is a really good way of approaching this. I think in speaking in general. I always talk about it when you speak, but definitely when you tell jokes. I love that.

That's interesting because that, that does relate to something I've sort of realized in doing, from doing stand up comedy. And a kind of little rule of thumb that I've kind of developed to help you feel a bit better on stage is that you should try, rather than trying to be getting laughs from the audience all the time, you should be trying to give laughs to the audience. Now you shift the focus away from, you know, trying to get their approval or get laughter, something like getting something for you. Instead you shift it to, oh, I'm here to provide laughter. Yeah, you know, and then you feel a bit less bad if things don't quite work out because it's not that you haven't got something, you know, you didn't receive something that you were trying to get from people. Instead it's just like you were offering something and they just didn't take it this time. So, you know, you can feel a little bit better about yourself if you think of it in that way. And similarly, maybe in social situations, it's not about, it's not all about you, you know, and if, if people don't get the jokes you're trying to make and stuff, it's all right, you know, it's not really the end of the world.

And I'm going to connect it to speaking because people are very much afraid of speaking even a normal conversation. They're afraid of making mistakes. So I think the same attitude should be applied as well. Don't think about what, how you come across or like how perfect your English is. Really think about the experience and telling them something or making them think something or help them feel heard and, or learn something about you, which is about the experience that they're experiencing and less about the outcome of your language knowledge.

Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. And, and you know, try not to be too self conscious. I mean, it's easy to say because sometimes like feeling, feeling uncomfortable socially, it's not, it's not a conscious thing, it's just more like a physical thing that just happens to you. You know, it happens to me. I mean, I'm podcaster, comedian guy, but I am socially awkward too and in social situations I will feel nervous and it's really annoying. It's just a really annoying thing. It's like a physical reaction sometimes to being with other people. So, you know, we've got all these mental ways of approaching it and changing our minds sometimes. Also it's a physical thing and it's a question of like, you know, like stretching out your body and trying to get a bit more relaxed and even doing things like doing exercise regularly and eating the right things. Those also help with, with feelings of social anxiety and confidence and just like, you know, getting healthy and sort of the physical side of things. So I don't know, I would say in terms of speaking skills and confidence and stuff. Yeah, you've got to put it in perspective and remember that everyone kind of feels the same. Everyone is in the same kind of situation. Even though it doesn't look like it. Other people feel nervous and uncomfortable too. And that's again why I like to use humour because it sort of like breaks down those barriers and it kind of makes other people sometimes. For me, the way I like to feel more comfortable in a social situation is to make everyone else feel a bit more comfortable and to show them, look, I'm not judging you. It's all right. This is not such a serious situation. And then once I've kind of done that, then everything feels a bit, a bit better. It's a bit like sort of trying to control the room, but in a good way.

In a good way. I so relate to this. This is exactly how I operate. I also associate myself as, like, identify myself as an introvert. So it would be much easier for me to do this or speak to a thousand people online and than to go in, network around like in a group of 20 people. That would really create stress and I would feel like I need to kind of like breathe into that.

So it's, Yeah, I, I, I agree. I actually think I'm an introvert as well. I mean, people won't agree, but it sort of depends on your definition of an introvert. I've under, I've, I've, I understand it that introverts kind of get their energy from times when they're on their own. And extroverts get their energy from being with other people. And so those social situations, and this kind of relates to stand up in a weird way that people see a stand up comedian and they think that person must be an extrovert. But weirdly, and Jerry Seinfeld has said this too, like, stand up comedians are weird because it's like if you look at a comedy room, you've got all these people sitting in that direction and the comedian is the only one facing the other way, you know, and it's kind of a bit like as a comedian, you what, what you're doing is you're kind of like, okay, everyone sit down there. And you know, you kind of completely change all the social rules. Whereas in a normal, as you said, in a networking situation, when you're all standing around with your coffee or your cocktail or whatever, that can be very awkward because there are so many complicated social rules that you've got to deal with. And the interaction with all these people, everyone's on the same level, but in stand up, you're basically kind of like, all right, you all sit. Let's just like completely change the rules here. And I'll get. I can just speak to you all as one group. And that's just much, somehow much easier to deal with than standing around dealing with the complex psychosocial cultural dynamic of, you know, speaking like a normal person.

Yeah, we should start a union, I think. I'm sure there is one.

We just need to join it.

Yeah, yeah, that would be a good idea.

All right, Luke, so before we wrap up, first of all, I think I have a lot more questions to ask you. So for those of you watching, if you want a follow up episode about this, another interview, then let us know in the comments so we can ask Luke about his experience learning other languages. There is, there are some things to talk about there. And, but before that, what is one piece of advice that you would always give an English learner?

Hmm? Just keep going, actually. I mean, I could give lots of different specific things, but I would say keep going. So there will be times when you feel like you're not making any progress. There'll be times when you feel like you're getting it all wrong. There'll be times when you feel like you're never going to achieve the things you want to achieve to an extent. Learning a language, as I said before, it's just about time and practice and keep going. Just don't stop. Even when it, even when you feel like you're not Getting anywhere. Keep going. Because that breakthrough might be just round the corner. So just keep going. The five P's. Practice, practice, practice, practice, practice. The five M's. Motivation, motivation, motivation, motivation, motivation. And the five L's. Listening, listening, listening, listening, listening. You know, just. Just keep it up and try to enjoy it. And don't stop. That's my best advice. Just don't stop. Keep going. It'll get, you know, you'll get there in the end. Regardless of what there is, in a way, there is no destination. Don't think of it as being a thing, an end point. Because all of us in communication, we're all learning, you know, even me in my first language, I'm still trying to learn how to get my point across efficiently and effectively. So it's a process, you know, so you just. We're all just enjoy the journey. It's about the journey, not the destination.

Beautifully said. I agree 100%. Thank you so much, Luke. It's been a pleasure talking to you and where can people find you?

So maybe the best way is just to go to my website, which is teacherluke.co.uk. very straightforward, basically. That's the best way. And you can find all the rest of the stuff there. Yeah. Thank you for inviting me onto your channel. It's been really nice. And hello to all of your listeners and viewers and. Yeah, lovely, thank you.

Great. We're also going to link the website and the podcast and the YouTube channel in the description below, so make sure you check it out and also go check out our interview on Luke's podcast and channel. All right, thank you so much, Luke.

Thank you.

All right, that's it. Thank you so much, Luke, for this wonderful conversation and for all of you watching, let me know in the comments what was your favorite part about our conversation? And again, I'm inviting you to go and check out my interview with Luke on his channel and I'm going to link to it in the description along with a link to his podcast and YouTube channel. Thank you so much for being here and have a beautiful, beautiful rest of the day and I'll see you next week in the next video.

Bye.