333. Culture, Identity, and Language with English Teachers Chris & Nick

Hey, welcome to the Influency Podcast. I'm your host, Hadar, and this is episode number 333. In this episode, I'm going to share with you a conversation I had with Chris and Nick, two English teachers about culture, identity, and language. We recorded this episode in 2020, and I thought it would be a good idea to bring this conversation back and share it with you here on this podcast. I hope you enjoy it. Hi, Chris.

Hey. Hi, Nick.

Hey.

So good to have you here today with us.

So great to be here. I'm super excited.

Okay, Nick and Chris. So if people for some reason don't know you guys, then why don't you just. Chris, let's begin with you. Why don't you share a little bit about yourself? Who you are, what you do, who you serve, who you help, where you live, how is. How your day has been? Like.

Yeah. So my name is Chris. I am an ESL teacher. I work 100 online. I guess everyone works, like, pretty much online nowadays, but I live in Nashville, Tennessee, in the United States. I've been teaching English for almost five years now. I can't. I can't really believe it, but I work with a lot of people who are working on pronunciation stuff and just working on their communication skills, whether it's, like, at work or with their family members and things like that. Yeah. What I love to do.

Amazing. And, like, I. I love your pronunciation videos because I think they're so. Yeah, they're so detailed. It's just like. Like how I love to teach, you know, deepen the details, but also having, like, a broader understanding of what the sound is. So I love that.

Thank you. Yeah.

And you have a YouTube channel and an Instagram account, Right. If you want to follow these guys, and you should, then you can go to language with Chris on Instagram and ESL teacher Nick on Instagram as well. Yelena says, I love your pronunciation videos.

Thank you, Yelena. So sweet.

All right, Nick.

Hey, everyone. So my name is Nick. I am from Toronto, Canada. I am a primary, junior, intermediate teacher. I've been doing it for about five or six years. And I'm also an ESL teacher. I work with adults. I've been doing that for about one year.

Have you been doing it on your own or in a language school?

I've been doing it on my own. I've been doing it on my own. Mostly tutoring.

Yeah.

And how is the COVID situation over there? Do you actually teach in the classroom these days or do you teach remote?

Well, school has just started. It just started. Actually this week it started. So I am kind of. Well, this year I am just supply teaching or occasional teaching. So I want to kind of just see how things go if there are any more outbreaks or cases of COVID before I kind of make that decision to go back into the classroom. So for now I'm just teaching online, doing one on one tutoring, that sort of thing.

Lovely.

Yeah.

Okay, you guys. So I wanted to begin this conversation by talking about, first of all, like, talking about what it's like for someone, especially for immigrants, to move from one country to another. A lot of the people watching this, because this is, you know, like we basically talk about language and how to feel comfortable in English. So of course there is a need if you don't live in an English speaking country, if you still live in your country and you just want to improve your English, but when it comes to speaking another language, that means that you are getting in touch with another culture. Right. So whether you work in a global company that requires you to interact with people from a different culture and you use English to do that, whether it's, you know, American, British, Australian or European or whatever, I'm generalizing. Right. But English is a tool to connect with different cultures. So ultimately, all of you here, all of the people watching this, they must have had that experience of interacting with different cultures. But also probably if you've immigrated, then the experience of moving or moving into a new culture in the new society, and that in addition to mastering a language or feeling comfortable in a new language, it has a lot of implications on people's lives and sense of identity and decisions that they make in their lives. Right. I know a lot of immigrants that decided to no longer speak in their native language with their kids because they wanted them to immerse in the culture. So we're going to talk about what, about what happens when we have an interaction of two different cultures. Let's talk about the US or Canada, because both, like, this is where you guys are coming from. I'm going to talk about my experience as a foreigner because that's how I used to call myself living in the U.S. when they lived there for five years. And. Yeah. So first of all, anything else that you'd like to point out before we begin?

I think it's important for me to let everybody know that I'm originally from the US and like, everything that I say is like from kind of the point of view of an outsider trying to understand how my students feel. I've never Actually lived in another country. I've been to a few other countries, but everything is like me trying to understand things as an outsider. And I'm still like every day I'm trying to like every day is like a new YouTube, like documentary about like multiculturalism or native speakerism and stuff like that. So I'm still learning. That's what I want everyone to learn.

Exactly. I, I'd agree with Chris as well too. Like, I've only lived in Canada, so I, this is, this is my perspective. My perspective might bias or a little different from someone else's. So. Yeah, I think it's important to, to just make that clear as well.

Absolutely. And thank you for, for mentioning that because I don't take it for granted. A lot of people don't recognize that what they're saying is not the ultimate truth or fact. It's just a perspective and it is based on your experience, your life like the prison that you've, you know, lived your life through. So. Okay, so let's begin by first defining some ideas, right? Like, and we're mainly going to talk about cultural pluralism, right. And how that relates to language. So what is cultural pluralism?

Nick, you got this.

Go for it, Nick.

Okay, so cultural pluralism for me is basically this idea of, of when you have smaller groups within a larger society where there might be the dominated culture, where they basically are able to maintain their own cultural identities, their own values, their own practices. Usually they're accepted by the dominant society, provided that they are, that elements or parts of their culture are consistent with the laws and values of the wider society. So that, that for me is really what, what cultural pluralism is. It's pretty much this idea of integration. You can practice your own culture, but as long as you sort of conform to a certain extent to the dominant culture.

Okay, and you use the word integration, right?

Yes.

So it's integration. If we're talking about cultural pluralism, which is, you know, something that probably we want to strive for, maybe not everyone. And we're going to talk about immigrants. And I can tell you from my own personal experience that I did not want integration when I lived in the U.S. i wanted full on assimilation. Right. I was 20, I moved to the U.S. this is why I sound like I sound. Because I wanted to lose the identity that I had, which is of a non American. Right. And Israeli. And I changed my name. So a lot of times we look at integration and assimilation. Okay, so what is the difference, Nick or Chris? Chris, what is the difference between integration and assimilation? So Nick said, cultural pluralism is this idea of integration that we live together. Right. We respect each other's culture. And there is, of course, the dominant culture, but no one is interfering with how people live their lives, sort of. Right. Nick, do you want to add anything? Well, you did.

That sounds pretty much.

Yeah. Simplified. Simplified. I like simplifying things. But there is this idea, like I suggested, I did not want integration. I wanted a simulation. So what is the difference, Chris, between the two?

So I remember the first time Nick and I were talking about this topic, I had no idea what cultural pluralism was. I had to, like, Google it. And I was like, okay, should I just pretend like I know? Because I had no idea. So for everybody who's watching, if you don't know, don't worry I look.

Exactly.

And I was like, wait, you know what this reminds me so much of? I'm sure that many people have heard about how the United States is the melting pot. This melting pot idea is this assimilation. And it's. I think that it's kind of like a soup versus a salad. When you're in a soup, you just kind of want everything to boil and melt together so that everything can kind of look the same. But this integration is more of like a salad where you can identify and still see the original properties of the. The vegetables.

I guess I love this imagery, like, of a salad versus a soup that you cook. And it all tastes the same. Doesn't matter, like, what vegetables were. But then it could be like a tossed salad, right?

Like.

Or grit. It's mainly lettuce, but there are, like, some tomatoes, a little bit of carrot, you know, so you see it, you taste it. But it's ultimately, when you look at it from afar, it looks green. So you assume it's a. You know, there's lettuce there. That's, like the main culture. I love that. Okay, so assimilation is really losing your original identity. Not losing, but, like, kind of like washing it out, right?

Yeah, washing it out or hiding it. Trying to take on the. The characteristics of that dominant society so that you don't seem different.

Right. Why is that? Like, why do you think there is this fear, this big fear of being different? I mean, we might think that, like, that answer is obvious, but let's. Let's dig deep and see, because ultimately, you know, we will bring it back to English because it. It really is. English is a sheer reflection, because people recognize you the moment you open your mouth, right? Let's say you change your outfits, maybe, like, you have a Slightly different look, but still, the moment you open your. Your mouth, people can recognize you. People can point out and say, you're from here, you're from there, you know, and they think it's all nice and fun, but they're signaling you out that you're. You're different than me. Right. And that creates resistance. So ultimately, you know, I really think that the language has a huge part in this conversation. So. Chris. Yeah, like. Or Nick, what would you. Chris, you have a couple more minutes to think. Nick, you go first. Why do you think people are so afraid of that? Like, have that fear?

Well, I think the fear, it comes from the fact that if people are able to practice all of their cultural cultures or identities, then it's going to be a threat, almost a threat to, like, a national identity. I feel like English is, like, the basis in which it's. It's part of a national identity. It's certainly. If we're talking about America or Canada. Yeah. So I really think that there's this fear that if too many people are able to practice their cultures, their religions, or speak there, There are various languages, that somehow the national identity of the dominant culture is going to be lost. So.

So that is the fear that is experienced by. By the dominant society. Right. And I absolutely agree with you, and I have a really good example that I just came across in a book that I'm going to share in a sec. But, Chris, what about the fear, on the other hand? Like, the fear of being different, the people and those subcultures?

Oh, gosh, I feel like there's such a fear of this. Like, several years ago, I visited Colombia for the first time, and if I didn't say anything, nobody would know that I was American. But as soon as I started speaking, people were like, oh, where are you from? And I'm like, oh, my God, this person is totally going to treat me differently because I'm from the United States. Are they going to charge me differently? Are they going to take me to the wrong place if I'm in a taxi? What thoughts are they going to impose on me because of the things that they've heard in the media or throughout history or from their family?

Right, right.

People impose so much of that on when they just know that we're not from the same place. Right.

Like, there are so many stereotypes that people have. Right. Hold about Americans, Canadians, Israelis, Russian, Japanese. Right. Like, we have all of these, and then we look for them the moment we come across. Like, if you say that you're American, it's Like, oh, so you are this and that. Right. Like, you speak loudly, you eat junk food. You do this, you do that. We all know, like, the list of stereotypes that for. For each culture. Yeah, absolutely. And so you, like, you want to move away from it.

Yeah. You don't want to be. You don't want to be feared, and you don't want to be that. That villain that people portray you as in. In movies. Gosh, I've had so many students who have just been like, okay, well, do you do this? Because in all the movies I see that black people do this or that. Americans do this or that. The gay characters do this. And I'm like, you.

You have, like, triple roles here. Right. You have three different levels. You know, as a. As a black person. Right. As an American, people already judge you without knowing you. Yeah.

Mm.

Absolutely. Oh, gosh, it's so, so annoying. And I know that it's gotta be so annoying for my students and for, like, any immigrants of any country. Like, all those assumptions that come with that.

Yeah. You know, like, one of the stereotypes of Israelis is that we're rude. So one of the ways that I was trying to navigate through, like, living in the US Is, was to be overly polite.

Oh, my God.

Kind and compassionate and pleasing. Just that, God forbid I won't be perceived as rude. Right. So I was overdoing everything that is against the stereotypical, you know, Israeli. So I won't be seen as one. So it's really interesting. And we do it. I. I know that now. Right. Like, years after. But when I was doing it, I didn't think that that's what I was doing. I only realized it after I moved back to Israel, you know, And I was like, I. I didn't know how to handle myself after five years in the U.S. culturally, I was just like this odd, bizarre person, like, being surprised about people's behavior. Right now, I'm. I'm totally back home. Yeah. It's really interesting. So let's see if we have any questions. You guys, do you have any questions for us before I move on? Like, to talk about language and identity so that when people started immigrating to the US Or I think right after the independence, the Declaration of Independence, I read in a book that people were teaching in German, their kids, and they were prosecuted for it. Right. Some of the. Some of the citizens were teaching in German, and they said that if they still use their language and not English. Right. German, then it's going to make them less patriotic. I'm totally paraphrasing. Here, but that was the idea. Right. So they weren't allowed to use any other language but English because they were afraid it's going to jeopardize or to change their mind about, you know, being a patriot. So it's exactly, Nick, what you said about that. Fear that. And, you know, and I can also share with you, you know, I live in Israel, and we have a very complex identity because of the conflict between Arabs and Israelis. And so Hebrew is the dominant language, but Arabic, Right. Like, it has become political how much you use Arabic. Now, to my opinion, Arabic should be taught in schools because, you know, we have a lot of Arab Israeli citizens, and it's. It's ridiculous that we don't speak the language. Right. That's not the language that we're taught in school. We, like, you can choose between Arabic and French. And I learned Arabic, and it wasn't even like it was literary Arabic, so no one really speaks that. Right. So it was just for me to be able to read books or whatever. And. And I can see that the bigger the conflict is, Arabic loses its place more and more. Right. Like on street posts in schools. Right. Like, it's not like an official language anymore, which is crazy to think about it. So language is being used to. Also to see how cultures are positioned in the society. So language is really very much connected to this whole discussion. Let's see, what are. What are the. Someone was asking a really good question with it. Okay. What is a national identity anyway?

Interesting, huh? What is a national identity?

Do you want to take a stab at it? Do you like to have any?

I think. I think Nick and I were talking about this. Yes. The day before yesterday a little bit. Remember when we were talking about the difference between nationality and ethnicity?

You're talking about race. Race and ethnicity.

Race and ethnicity. Right. Yeah.

So we can bring national identity to the party here.

So, yeah, why not?

Let's talk about it, actually. Let's talk about the difference between the three. National identity, race and ethnicity. I think it's so popular to use these that if we think about it, a lot of people don't even know what that means anymore. Right. Okay. So how did you guys define it in that conversation?

I always have trouble defining, like, ethnicity versus race, but when we were talking about it, I was saying, like, okay, remember the. The conflict between the Hutus and the Tutsis in Rwanda? I believe it was a Rwanda. Depending on, like, the wars that were being fought, you might be on one side of the border or the other side of the border, depending on how they split up the country. But at the end of the day, you're still going to come from this. This lineage of a people group. For me, that lineage is more of an ethnicity, But I have not. I'm.

It's okay. No, because I changed. I added some stuff. So I added the conversation about ethnicity and race and this national identity.

Nick, what do you think?

Well, when we were talking about race and ethnicity, Chris, we were both kind of, like, in disagreement. Because we were in disagreement, but we also agreed on things, so it was. It was interesting for me. Race is like your biological. Your biological characteristics or your traits, like your skin color or maybe your hair, your. Your eye color, your features, your physical features. Where ethnicity. I feel like ethnicity is more about your language and more of the culture, the more cultural elements, the way that you think about certain things, physically, how you might present yourself. So I feel like they're very similar. They're very related, especially in how they are encoded within culture. And I feel like a lot of times people use race to sort of try and identify, okay, you're part of my group. You know, I look at you, you look sort of like me. So we're one in the same. But at the same time, there are also. There are also differences. Clearly there are differences between people who might look similar, but they're of a different culture. So I think they're related, but they're also different as well, too.

I think that a lot of the time when people. We were also talking about how a lot of the time we will see other people here in the United States or in. In North America in general. And if we see someone who doesn't look like us or someone and we can't, like, identify them or put them in this box, so many people. My. I've done this too, before, where people will just be like, what are you? That question is so problematic. Like, what are you? It's just so, like, kind of dehumanizing human. Yeah.

Like, how do you even answer that?

Yeah, right. Is so people want to know so that they can put you in this box and then put those. Those stereotypes onto you. Those. Those thoughts like, oh, okay, this person is originally from South Africa. Okay, all right. So South African people in my mind, do this. All right? Now I think I know more about your family and what you do on a regular basis, etc. And, yeah, that's. Gosh, that's so problematic. But it's something people do all the time. I catch myself sometimes, and I'm.

Yeah, like, you have to. You have to tell yourself a story, and you have to have answers in your brain. Like, we always. Our brain always asks questions, right? When we are introduced, you want to know how close you are to the other person or not, like, whether it's done consciously or subconsciously. So I think asking someone like, you have an accent where you're from, or what are you, where are you from in terms of country? Like, what country are you from? Right. So for me, it's like, I'm Middle Eastern, but I'm Israeli. It's very complicated. What is my national identity? Going back to national identity. So I'm Israeli. I say that's what it says on my passport. But also in Israel, we have several ethnicities, Right. My parents were born in the Middle East. My dad is from Iraq, and my mom is from Libya. Right. So I see myself more as Middle Eastern in terms of my ethnicity. Right. And I'm Jewish, so there are all these elements that are tied together. But I'm very different culturally, ethnically, also from other Jewish people living in Israel sharing, you know, same race, but different culture, different ethnicity within the same country. It could be even in the same city, even in the same street as mine, right? So they're like. And we always, even now, living in Israel, we always see that through that filter of, you know, categorizing and putting people into boxes.

Yeah.

How do you identify you guys national identity? So you're Canadian, you're from the U.S. is it something that is. That makes you proud? Do you think about it?

You know, when I think that, when most people think about the United States, they think of, like, people, like, holding American flags and, like, just running down the street shouting, USA all the time. I'm not that. I'm not that kind of person. Like, I mean, if you get me a jacket with the American flag on it, I'll wear it. But I'm not the type of person who will be like, well, you know, I'm American, so this is the right way to do things, or, this is how I do stuff, or something like that. It's not. I mean, it is a part of my identity. I have to realize that this is part of my culture. I'm an American guy. I think like an American. I see things through an American lens. But at the same time, I don't want people to just reduce me to that. It's not like, I don't say like, hey, my name's Chris and I'm American. I just say, like, hey, Chris. I. I usually say, what I do and what I like and who I talk to and what stuff like that instead of my nationality first.

Yeah, for me it's, it's really interesting. So I'm biracial. My, my father is Greek and my mother, my mother is Beijing from Barbados. So I identify myself as biracial. I identify myself as Beijing, Greek, Canadian. I also identify myself as black as well too. So I think it's, it really depends. But you mentioned an interesting point and I just wanted to talk about. I feel like race, Race has been historically has determined your citizenship. It's determined what you're entitled to, especially in Canada. Canada and the United States. Race has definitely been like a factor that will influence what your, your entitlement, you're entitled to. And I feel like now, currently we're sort of trying to do away with that idea of a race based sort of system. But I feel like we also deny, we kind of forget about its existence and that it actually was, it was used to determine if someone was a citizen or not a citizen or if someone was entitled to certain privileges or if someone wasn't entitled to certain privileges. And I think that is the root of a lot of the issues that we're seeing where we have these problems in culturally pluralist societies where people can't seem to get along. There are all these, these issues happening, especially what we see now with Black Lives Matter. And we're seeing this and I think we have to acknowledge that we come from a system. Our system is really rooted in a lot of racist sort of ideologies and we kind of deny, we deny that we need to have a lot more open conversations about it and sort of focus our attention on that.

I totally agree, Nick. I'm. Oh, gosh. So I remember the first time we were talking about this. We were talking about how like a lot of people will be like, oh, well, you know, we're in a post racial society and we don't really. I mean, race doesn't matter anymore.

And then racial.

Right, post racial, post racial society.

And it's just like race don't matter. Like, you know, when you say race don't matter, it seems that you, like, you never experienced any racism ever, right?

Yeah.

It means you're white. Okay.

Pretty much. I think that so many people just are not paying attention and are just like. I see the American government a lot of the time as a vehicle to get you from one place to another in your career or your family or whatever it is. And that vehicle was made, let's say that it's made for somebody who is 175cm tall or something like that. But for a person who is taller or shorter, who is still a person who still has the ability to drive and has a license and everything like that, if they do not have the ability to make those changes to the vehicle or the like, settings, like making sure that the mirror is in the right place or something like that, they're more prone to like getting in a car accident. So. Or right. Maybe the police will see them and think, okay, they're driving weird. Why are they driving like that? Or something like that. All of this is just pretty much to say that, yes, we are not treated the same way because people are.

Looking for hundreds and hundreds of years. Just to clarify, it's not like something that happened, you know, in the last 30, 40 years or the recent administration.

Yeah, exactly. And people will look at us through this lens of like, everything's okay, just don't worry about it, it's fine. And it's like, no, I actually still have this stuff that I have to deal with. Like, you may have kind of changed the streets, but I'm still in this car. That doesn't make any sense for me.

Yeah.

Which is what you're describing can help us understand also the difference between equality and equity. Do you want to talk about that a little bit?

Absolutely. Well, I think for me, equity is really this idea that even though, like certain people don't start off from the same point, some people, like, if we look at the history of the United States and America, white people have been afforded more privileges as I was talking about that, the race based system where they've benefited from being white. So what has happened is that they're in a, in a, in a better position to maybe make decisions or they have more opportunities that are afforded to them because of how history has sort of played itself out and where people of color, they don't have those same opportunities just because of what has also happened throughout history. And so they're not an equal starting point. And I think what Chris is trying to say, that some people need some accommodations to sort of get them to that place so that there is more equality. Equality can't be achieved without equity in the current system that we're living in now, in an ideal world, and if history didn't play itself the way it did, maybe it might be possible. But currently I don't think that's possible without equity. Some systems in place to ensure that equity can happen.

Right. Because a lot of people expect. Okay. Because now, according to the law, there is equality. So some people expect, okay, you have the same rights as I do. Why don't you, you know, go ahead and make it out in the world, right? And it's like, we have equal rights, but it's not fair because we, if we look back, you know, years and years and hundreds of years back, like, we need equity to make sure that we. Exactly what you said, we have equality. And I think that sometimes people who have privilege, they don't realize that because they only look at it from their own perspective.

It happens all the time. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that there's so many people, like, I guess, kind of going back to this thing that we were talking about before that, that see this equity as kind of a threat. They're like, oh, well, this other person is going to receive more benefits or more attention from the government, that I will. And what about me? I worked for what I have and things like that. But they don't take into account the historical ramifications of just everything that has happened to, like, at least here in the United States, people are like, oh, well, I. I got a good job and I live in a nice neighborhood. Why can't you? And it's like, well, because for hundreds of years, like, all these terrible things happened, and just recently, I'm just now starting to get to be able to see what I can get to.

And not even to mention, you know, all the psychological barriers that happen for people. It's not, it's not even just the financial, social, like, all of that. The situation, it's the, you know, it's imposturism and not feeling good enough because you're never, you know, you're always expected to overperform if you have to. I think, I think minorities, marginalized communities, non native speakers, women, people of color, like, they usually have to work harder to prove that they deserve the things that they're getting or even if it's just for themselves. Right. Because there is that feeling of not being enough. Do you guys ever. Being in the ESL industry, we always talk here about native speakerism and racism. And do you feel that. Have you ever experienced racism in the English learning industry as teachers, people talking, commenting, mentioning something that you felt had to do with who you are, how you look?

I actually, I feel like from my background, being a person, biracial person or black person, I feel like when I look at black culture, for example, and I, and I, and I see the influence that black culture has had, if we look at hip hop, if we look at the entertainment industry especially, and I feel like there are a lot of, sorry, like, vocabulary that comes from the black community that's often taken appropriated, and then there hasn't been an acknowledgement of where it's. It's come from. So that.

To me, I would ask you to define appropriated and appropriation. Cultural appropriation. Because if you use it, maybe.

Sure. So cultural appropriation, I mean, is when someone of another ethnic group or culture takes something from one culture and then uses it to sort of promote themselves or. And there's no. There's no sort of acknowledgment of where it came from. And then I feel like there is a double standard because oftentimes when people appropriate black culture, so people who are non black, when they use parts of black culture, they seem to sort of get this shine or they get promoted from it. But if it was a black person who was doing it, they wouldn't sort of get that same attention, if that makes sense.

Absolutely right. Absolutely. And also, I think, to appropriate even language, as you said, I think that you pay a price if you do that. As a black person, for example.

Yes.

Less professional or less intelligent, less articulate. And then if someone who is non black would use the same language, it would be like, hip, cool, Right. Or any different. Like, you know, it's not going to have the same effect. And that needs to be acknowledged.

Yes, 100%.

Chris? Yeah. Have you ever experienced.

I. I went into the ESL industry. Like, really? Really? I was thinking about this so much. I was like, it's going to be hard for me to get a job. I'm black. Like, they're going to think that my English is bad because of the way that I look, because of the things that they've seen in tv, because of the things that their teachers or parents have told them. And thankfully, I don't think I have experienced much of this, but at the same time, I realized that a lot of the time I, like, I normalize a lot of this stuff. Like, oh, well, you know, that just. It just happens. It is what it is.

You don't even acknowledge it as problematic or racist.

Yeah, exactly. And I think that a lot of my students, I mean, of course they know that I'm black. They know that I'm African American. And sometimes they'll bring up things like, well, well, that's not the right way to speak, or this is wrong, or something like that. I'm like, well, actually, in African American vernacular English, which a lot of people know as like, black English or Ebonics. Right. It's totally fine and it's a lot easier. You don't have to think about putting together all these like verbs and stuff. But like Nick said, it is seen as wrong. And if you speak like that in the classroom, people will think that you're less intelligent. And it's totally unfair. I'm always reminding my students, like, this is a different way of saying the same thing. You should learn what it means. You can use it if you want to, but at the same time, you have to keep in mind that if you use it that way, this is what people are probably going to think. So just be careful.

Right.

It's like a minefield.

Yeah, right. And you learn how to operate and how to speak in different circumstances, even non native speakers. Right. Like, if I were to speak to Americans right now, I would have a different, probably like a slightly different tone, voice, language, pronunciation in comparison to where I would speak to fellow Israelis. And I would just have to use a few words in English or say something. And I know most of them are Israeli speakers or people who are non native speakers. Sometimes, like, you understand where you're at and then you choose how to show up and like, what language to use, whether it's your dialect or your accent or the words that you choose ultimately either to not look so different or to get what you want. Right. Like, sometimes we do it because it's smart, because you know, if you want to pass the interview, then you are going to sound like you, you know, that you're future potential employer might want you to sound. Right. So you kind of like assume that and you already play into that. Let's talk for a second about that idea of speaking with an accent. Right? Like if we're, if we go back to pluralism and integration versus assimilation. So the difference between speaking with an accent but communicating properly and mistakes and all of that, but communicating properly in English versus that idea of assimilation, how does it come across in the language? Right. In English teaching? What do we see?

I.

I think that. I think that a lot of my students think that if, if you are not speaking like a native, that it is wrong and that automatically you are less intelligent. You're not going to get the job. People are not going to want to talk to you. Your, your accents or your, your grammar is hurting the other people's ears. Even though people can probably understand what they're talking about and what they want and what they need to get and things like that, I think.

Right.

And I have to remind myself of this too. Like, it's. That it's okay to speak with an accent if I'm learning another language because I'm from the United States, English is my first language. I'm not going to be able to say this thing in Russian exactly the same way that my Russian student is, and I just have to be okay with that. And the other people that I'm talking to, I feel like. Personally, I feel like they have to give me some patience because I'm not. It's not my first language.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah, Nick.

I agree as well with Chris. I think it's definitely important to communicate to my students that, okay, well, this is the expectation, when you are in Canada, this is what it sounds like to speak proper standard English. I can teach you. I can teach you the grammar structures. I can teach you the foundation of it. But at the same time, remember, the focus is on being comprehensible. And I always say that to my students, it's about being comprehensible. It's not about changing your accent or trying to sound like a native speaker. Of course, you need to learn the structure. You need to understand. You need to be able to understand a native speaker. And there are certain ways that native speakers might say things so that you should be equipped with that knowledge. But like I said, at the end of the day, it's about being comprehensible. And everybody has an accent. Right. Everyone has an accent, even if you are a native speaker. Right?

Right.

Yeah.

Right.

Obviously, both of you are native speakers. Right. And both of you have different. Slightly. Like a slightly different pronunciation. Right. It's very nuanced, but that's it. That's like, you know, it really is. It shows your history, where you're from. You know, I think a lot of it has to do with the need to sound like a native. It goes back to what we talked about at the beginning about, you know, wanting to assimilate into a culture. So people are not afraid of you. Right. They're not afraid that they're. That you're here to. To dismantle their culture.

Yeah.

So I think that's where it's coming from. And then you don't want, like, you know, and then this. The sound of your voice, which represents how different you are. So that's the first thing people want to fix. Right. So they don't know. But it doesn't really change your identity because your identity is so rooted in you, you can. And nothing against assimilation. Right. Like, if people feel, you know, I've been there, I Know what it's like. I know that life can be easier if there are less points of difference and more points of connection, like, within the society that you live in. Because even though, you know, we want pluralism and multiculturalism, in reality, in the interaction between people, we all know that people hold a lot of biases, and there is discrimination and prejudice and all of that. Right. So sometimes people just want to avoid that.

Yeah. This is where I really have to check my privilege, because I. I know that my students are gonna face these things all the time. They're gonna have people always asking them, where are you from? Where are you really from? When they tell.

When they say, I'm from the U.S. yeah.

Yeah, I'm from Florida. Okay. But where are you really from? And it's just like, okay, oh, my gosh. I don't want to have this conversation every time. I don't want to have issues when I'm trying to get a job. I don't want my. My spouse's parents to think that I'm a bad person because of the way that I speak or where I come from or something like that. That.

Right.

I do have to kind of take a step back and be like, okay, well, I mean, I know how that feels, so I. I have to be empathetic with that. So, yeah. Yeah. Depends on the person, I guess. Yeah.

Let's see some of the comments here. I think there was, like, a really interesting discussion here and see if we have a few more questions before we wrap up. Interesting. Dewey says, for me, in my place, cultural assimilation, integration, and adaptation are not only about people who immigrate from one country to another country. Oh. So I thought I read it. Right. So it's not only about people who immigrated. Right. Like, sometimes there are different cultures within the same country, you know, and that, like. Absolutely, absolutely. I think that when we talk about people immigrating, we. We mostly talked about the idea of language. But even within the same country, there are people who speak different languages. Right. In China, for example, like a huge country, you have several languages. It's not just Mandarin Chinese, even though it's the dominant language, and there is a difference between languages.

Just to respond to what that person said. Yeah, I think this is totally true. I think that this can happen, like, inside of a. Inside of a country where everyone is, like, a native of that country. Like, it happens all the time. Like, between, I don't know, the west coast and the east coast or somebody from. From New York, something like that. Like when a New Yorker comes down south or something like that. It's like, okay, well, you know, you need to be a little bit more polite with people. And what do I mean by polite? I mean that you can't do this and you need to talk slower and you need to do this and that when they could, they could maintain their identity and I would still understand what they are saying probably.

Right.

So it, yeah, it. I do think that's important to keep.

In mind even like within boroughs, you know, in New York, someone from Queens and Manhattan and the Bronx and Brooklyn, there's already, you know, people that identify differently and also different accents. Right. So the moment you can put the stamp of like, yeah, you sound different too, then.

Yeah, yeah. How much taxi ride gonna be?

Yeah, yeah, right. How much is the taxi ride is gonna be? Fatma says, I totally understand this because I have always lived with discrimination because of my disability. Right. We haven't talked about being able bodied. Right. As a privileged versus someone with a disability look differently. Many times I received the feeling of not belonging. Right. Oh yeah, you wanna.

So like I'm, I'm still trying to learn about like all these different isms. There's so many. So this is ableism. I'm understanding. And it's just trying to understand how a person is literally just trying to live their life and how they have to conform to like places with a bunch of stairs, if they're in a wheelchair or something like that, or if a blind person.

Right, right.

Just certain things that I don't ever. I've never had to deal with and I consider their way of living. So yeah, I got to keep that stuff in mind.

Definitely accessibility. And I think that even when we're in the classroom and we're, we're teaching, it's really important when we're trying to, to make, create an inclusive classroom as teachers. Really important for us to sort of check our biases and our own assumptions about what we just think would be, would be normal. So like Chris was saying about whether or not, okay, if my student has a disability, would they even be able to access the building or would they be able to access the space or would they be able to engage in this exercise if there, if there is a lot of movement, for example, that is required in the classroom? So, yeah, I think as teachers it's really important for us to always check our biases and our assumptions based on our own personal identity.

Yeah, absolutely. And I love that. I love that. I think that as teachers we have a lot of responsibility and many of the things that we talked about even pluralism, you know, and making people comfortable with or students comfortable, especially kids, you know, kids who are learning. If you live in a place, I'm assuming Canada is a place like in the classroom, right, Nick, where you live or where you teach, do you. Do you feel that there is diversity of different cultures and.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Like Toronto. I live in Toronto, Canada, so, I mean, it's one of the most multicultural cities on the planet, so definitely I feel like there's a lot of diversity. And within the institutions, I feel like things are starting to change. I'm seeing changes. I'm seeing that there are more accountability measures to ensure that different groups are being recognized in the classroom and that there are accommodations that are in place. And I think that that's what we need to see, to see more of. So I'm optimistic.

And.

And I think also teachers really need to do a lot of their own personal work as well, too. Like, you have to have that motivation to be able to. To say, you know, I want to research about this issue, or I want to know more about this group so that I can educate myself, basically. Like, there needs to be both. There needs to be that and there needs to be on the part of the dominant institutions where they really need to recognize different groups and the diversity and ensure that measures that are inclusive of those groups of people.

Absolutely. And I think that instead of expecting them to understand you, especially as a teacher, it is so incredibly important to know who you're speaking with, where they're coming from, to understand more that cultural difference and to be able to understand also how your behavior may be perceived as this or that or, you know, understand where they're coming from, where. When they don't understand something or they ask certain questions. Because it's really not just about the language. It's also very cultural. You know, I always joke about teaching English in Israel. I say, well, there is, like, learning English and there is learning American, which is two different languages.

Right.

Like, you can take your thoughts and translate it to English and so you won't be understood, or it might sound too direct or offensive if you don't use the right language. Right. Or all of those. Okay, Any final thoughts or anything else you want to leave our audience with, you guys?

I want to encourage everybody to do your research on a people group that you don't know very much about. Like, learn about their struggles, learn about the. The history of their. Their country and their culture and things like that, and learn how their culture and their history is similar or different from yours because I don't know, if you don't do that, it makes it really, really hard to be empathetic. I think that's one of the best ways to be empathetic.

Just.

Yes.

Learn something that you don't know about somebody else.

Yeah.

And be empathetic.

Yeah, yeah, that's important. Empathy. Empathy with action. Right.

Yeah, you can be empathetic.

That's great. But make an action towards that body out.

Yeah. For being racist or ableist or sexist. And like make.

Yes.

Make opportunities for people who are parts of those groups that are not in the majority. I always encourage my students to like, hey, look, if you hear me saying something that sounds racist or sexist or, or anything like that, call me out so we can have that conversation. Because apparently I didn't get it. So, yeah, I'm always telling them to do that. Please, let's have that conversation. They're probably tired of it by now.

But even asking the question or saying that that is what matters. Right. Like that is taking action because they will pay attention to what you're saying and when they speak to other people, they will pay attention to what they're saying, whether or not they, they say the same thing or not. Like they say, you know, let me know if I say something offensive. But it's going to be in their awareness, which is why it's important to say that, why we're having this conversation. You know, and also for people to, to know that they deserve better if they don't feel that they're being. Being treated properly or equally. And sometimes they, they're like, yeah, well, I don't deserve it because I'm not part of the, you know, the dominant society. But no, it's not. That's not how it works. So it's okay for you to be a little different living in a certain.

Place and yeah, let's start encouraging these hard con. I think a lot of people that come here to the United States or that start learning English think, okay, well, you know, I can't talk about politics and religion and anything that is.

That's what they teach you online, like small talk. No politics, no religion, no everything. That's it. No one talks about it anymore.

Right. And I understand that to a certain extent, but I feel like that holds us back from so much conversation that would help us to move forward. I'm always like, hey, look, if there's a difficult conversation, let's have it, please. Otherwise it's going to be pretty like we're talking about the weather all the time. Like, I don't care. Like it's. The sun is still out there. Okay.

But for baseball. Yeah.

Oh, my God, no.

Nick, would you like to add something?

Yeah, I mean, I think that I agree with what both of you are saying. Being open to hearing what other people have to say and their opinions. Just be, just be open minded. When you're hearing about a different perspective or you're, you're, you're viewing or reading something that's from a different culture from yours, just be open and try not to go to that place of judgment. And also, I think if you're in an institution, you're studying somewhere, I think that we need to have more of these conversations and we need to bring more of, like, courses that focus on talking about, like, diversity and inclusive curriculum. I feel like often we rely on, we focus on like, the dominant forms of knowledge, like science and mathematics and business. But let's start getting some more of these courses.

So students start recording gender studies. Yeah, absolutely.

I wish I had studies looking at sexuality. You know, just, let's learn some new things. Let's change the name.

Yeah. And let's self educate yourself because these are things that are really essential for you as a human being. Right. And sometimes the people who decide what you should learn, probably it doesn't serve them or it wasn't. You know, it's like years and years of the same curriculum. So you're absolutely right. And even in the English language industry, to encourage teachers to talk about, you know, political issues and cultural issues. Because I think it, it really helps students have that critical thinking and also developing that sense of identity that is, oh, so important.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah.

Sweet.

All right, you guys, thank you so, so much for being here with us. So Chris and Nick, you guys go follow them on Instagram. Chris also has a YouTube channel called Chris the English Teacher.

Chris the English teacher. It's YouTube.comlanguage with Chris. So it's.

Right, so it's the same, same handle. Okay, beautiful. Thank you, Chris and Nick and thanks.

Bye, everyone.

Thank you so much.