337. Different Levels in the Classroom with Bruno Miceli

Welcome to the Influency Podcast. I'm Hadar and this is episode number 337. And today I'm speaking to teacher Bruno from Brazil about teaching in a multi level classrooms. Hey. Hey everyone. Thank you so much for joining me for another episode or conversation Friday. Conversation. Because we publish it on Friday. This is another interview that I conducted back in 2021 with a teacher, a wonderful teacher from Brazil called Bruno Misselli. And we talked about teaching and learning in multi level classrooms where you have different levels of learners. And also we talked about how to make our learning more effective. And especially for teachers, that might be interesting because we also talked about how to come up with teaching ideas. So I hope you enjoyed this conversation and let's go ahead and listen.

Hello, dear Hadar, how's it going?

I'm good. How are you, Bruno?

I'm good. Good. Super excited about our conversation today.

Yes, I'm so excited about our conversation too. And for those of you who do not know you, please introduce yourself and tell us about you.

All right, so I've been an English teacher for over 20 years. Everything like, started by accident. My former brother in law, he used to be an English teacher and then he knew that I was fluent when I was like 20 years old. Yes, 19. 20 years old. And then he asked me, hey, Bruno, I need, need someone to replace me at school and I can't find another teacher. Would it be, would you like to, to go there and just for one class and replace me over there? And you know, let's say that I've been replacing him for 20 years so far, you know.

Thank you, brother in law, for determining my future for being. Oh, I see. Well, everything has a purpose in life, right? So you were supposed to. Yeah. So interesting.

Yeah. And then of course, you know, I was, I was studying for being a journalist. I'm also a journalist here in Brazil.

Oh, cool.

Yeah, and then I graduated in journalism and I kept like teaching and being a journalist at the same time. But there was some point in life, it was like this year that I had to decide what would I choose. And I chose to be only an English teacher. Nowadays I'm only a full time English teacher.

Okay, so for 20 years you were both a journalist and an English teacher.

Yeah. Okay. Because what happens as a journalist here in Brazil, you work for like five, six hours or seven at most per day. So you have the rest of the day like kind of free to do whatever you want. And a journalist, you know, doesn't make that much money here. In Brazil. And a teacher as well, sometimes.

Well, yeah, I mean, a little bit. And a little bit, like they add up together.

Right.

So it's. Yeah.

And I can have like the best of both worlds. You know, I could have the best of both worlds because I use it to love being a journalist. I. No, I still love being a journalist. I'm not gonna say something that I. That I didn't like to do because I did it for 17 years and. But I've been an English teacher for 20 years because I started teaching before graduating in journalism. So I kind of have like the best of both worlds, as I said. You know, there was a time in this year and the pandemic made me, had me have this decision to be only an English teacher, only a full time English teacher now. Because as I launched my Instagram account, I'm on instagram only for 10 months. Yeah.

You have 50,000 followers and you have like a ton of content, beautifully designed content. This is why I was like, curious about you, because I saw, you know, how committed you are and like this idea of simplicity that I see in your work.

So.

Wow. Like, that's very impressive. So it seems like it's been, you know, you've been drawn into this world. Yes, yeah, of course.

You know, as a journalist and I used to be a TV reporter. So I have like, you know, this thing with the camera. I know how to talk to the camera. You know, I was taught that and I could bring that to my Instagram, you know, also for my social media. So most people, people struggle with that is like looking at the camera and talk to the camera. I didn't have this kind of issue, you know.

Okay, so that leads me to a question that came up is how do you. And it's really interesting because I feel like we share, we have a lot of similarities because, you know, I started as an actress and I was working as an actress living in New York. And a lot of the things that I've learned during my acting years and acting like school years, I have integrated into my work, whether as a. It was as a creator and someone who speaks to the camera, but also I've integrated into it, into my teaching. Right. So I use a lot of the acting activities and exercises and voice exercises that we used to do into my teaching. So what do you bring from journalism into the classroom in addition to, you know, how you show up as a content creator?

Yeah, of course. I would say that I was kind of labeled as a creative journalist. I used to make like different reports because people always told me that I was very, very creative. And so this kind of creativity that I, that I have as a journalist, I could bring it to, to the English class, to do English environment and to try to teach in a different way. And, and everything started when I, when I decided to teach like 20 years ago, I didn't know how would I do it. So I decided I had an English teacher and her name is Susanna. Okay? I said, oh my God. But how would I be an English teacher? Because one thing that people don't know is like, okay, I know how to speak English, but to teach English, it's completely different. You know, it doesn't mean that you know English, that you're going to know how to teach English and how to carry your knowledge. Yeah. How to share your knowledge with other people. You know, along my career, I've been a lot of like, English teachers that they knew English much more than I do, you know, and they were like, much better with grammar structures and all these kind of things. But regarding, like, sharing knowledge, students, they would prefer me because I would have like, a different kind of way of teaching. And I started like, pretending that I was Susanna, you know, because I didn't know how to do it in the beginning. So I started pretending that I was Susanna. So do you know, I don't know if you have ever heard about Emmy Cuddy. She has a famous sentence that says fake until you make it. So I was faking pretending to be Susanna. But there was a time that I, that I didn't need to be Susanna anymore. Okay. I became Bruno because I started to develop my own way of teaching and as a journalist at the same time that I needed to be creative, that I need to write reports every single day. And I have to kind of have, like, I have to think fast for most of the times and find solutions, you know, as quick as possible. And I could bring that to the classroom environment, you know.

Yeah.

And. And then what happened? After, you know, some time, I decided to specialize as an English teacher because I need some, some tests, like the Teaching Knowledge Test from Cambridge, the cpe, from Cambridge, the cea, then scp, of course. But because in some schools here in Brazil, you know, they demand it from you. You know, okay, you have to be a teacher, but you have to have a certificate or else you cannot teach here. And, you know, I think it's also important so this kind of certificates, you.

Know, so this is like such. Basically by sharing your story, you're also sharing advice for new teachers or wannabe teachers, because you know that there are a lot of people watching this that might be already teaching or they want to start teaching and share their own journey with others. And I think that's such great advice to that. Even if you're not. If you don't feel ready, you know, and you don't feel like you are already a teacher, you will become one as you do the work. Right. Like, as you show up every day teaching. And I like that idea of, like, be Susanna. Be your favorite teacher, be your favorite coach. Right. And. And gradually you will find your voice.

That's it. You know, in the very first beginning, nobody, like, nobody knows how to do it until you start doing it. Yeah.

You have ideas about how teaching should be, and usually it's not aligned with how you want to teach, but you'll only discover it as you go. I feel like the teacher that I was 10 years ago or five years ago or even two years ago, it's not the teacher that I am today. It's like an ongoing journey. I keep discovering new things about myself and what I like. And people change, too.

Yeah. For example, I've deleted some content on my Instagram on the very first beginning that I started posting it because, you know, I didn't. I didn't feel that. No. That. Bruno. From the very first beginning of 10 months ago. Ten months ago, you know, I wasn't the same one, you know, So I decided to delete this post because I didn't feel like it was me there, you know, the person that I am nowadays, it's complete, not completely different, but it's quite different from the one that I was 10 months ago.

But that person you were 10 months ago or the videos enabled you to become the person that you are today.

Yeah.

So for those who are afraid that the person that comes out is not them and it's not authentic, it doesn't matter, because that's your stepping stone to getting into being who you are. And I think that's important not just for teachers, for anyone who wants to show up more on social media, whether you have your own business or you want to improve your English simply by creating content in English, or, you know, I think it's like, with. With pretty much everything. Wow, that's fascinating, Bruno.

Yeah. For example, like, maybe next year I'm gonna, like, take a look at my content, like, the content that I'm producing, like, today, and like, oh, my God, did they really say these kind of things? Like, no way.

Who is that?

Right.

Yeah, but that's, like, that's the beauty of constantly evolving. Okay, let's talk about multi level classes. And because I'm sure that 20 years ago when you started teaching, you probably had a different idea as to, you know, what it should be like in the classroom.

Yeah.

So let's just start by defining what multi level classes are for those who don't know.

Yeah. What are multi level classes? When I started studying English and when I started teaching English, you know, we have classes divided by levels. Like you are A1, you are B1, you are A C1. Okay. We have this division of students and they learn by levels. So what happens when I started studying English and, and when I started teaching English, the classes, they were divided by levels. Right. And you were only supposed to learn like, okay, you, you were B1. So you're going to learn, I don't know, the instructors for B1 students. And you are C1. You're going to learn the structures for C1 students. Like if you're from very basic, you are going to learn the verb to be and then like the pronoun, the pronouns and there it goes. You know, we had like some. We still have. Okay. I'm not saying that I'm against this kind of methodology. Right. But we still have some kind of pattern, you know, some standard of the learning process. And that is kind of, you know, along, along the time that people stayed with this idea on their mind because everybody learned that way. So you should learn this way because that's the way it is, that's the way it works. We divide everybody by levels. Right. And that's the way you teach and that's the way you learn. And that's it.

Yeah.

But then it was like six years ago maybe I was watching some YouTube videos. I was trying at this time, like six years ago to do something different with my private students. And I couldn't. I must confess, Hodar, that it was quite hard to find something different that something that I was connect. Really connected with the teaching process. And it's kind of easy, you know, when you have a textbook and just follow the textbook, it's over there. So you just have to follow it, Right?

Yeah.

And so I was, you know, kind of tired of teaching this way and trying to find, you know, some, some kind of new techniques. And then watching a video about a school in Portugal that is called, that is called like Scola da Ponci, where kids, they are taught in multi level classrooms. And I was like, okay, let me take a deeper look at it. And I saw that a Brazilian woman, she's like a vlogger. And she went to Portugal and she was going to make a tour at this school and the tour guides was like a 7 year old boy and an 11 year old boy. Okay. And they show her and they showed her around and the way that they used to explain her how the school works, she was so impressive. And the way that she, she was telling us how impressive she, she was, that really touched me. And I, and I thought, hey, I think that I can try to bring this kind of teaching to the English environment because what happens, the real world that we live in, it's a multi level world, you know, for example, when I don't know about you, but when you live, when you move it to New York, I don't know if you, if you already spoke English at a time or not, or you have to study more there. But the people that, that you got in touch over there, they were not leveled. You know. You didn't choose, right? Yeah. You didn't choose. Okay, I'm going to talk only to people that are basic. Okay.

Yeah.

Now I'm going to only talk to people that they are in an intermediate level. Right. So you don't choose the kind of people or you know, with whom you're going to talk with. So I thought, hey, why not? We try to bring this kind of teaching strategy to the classroom and we kind of, we're gonna kind of mix, you know, the advanced students with basic students and intermediate students and all of them are going to learn together. Okay. We're going to bring topics where everybody can learn at the same time, where everybody can discuss at the same time. But okay, teacher, I'm a basic student. I don't have this kind of vocabulary. I don't know the structure that I'm going to use. Right, but you are going to learn a lot because when you move abroad, I have a lot of students, they live in the US or they live in London and they decided to move to these countries, you know, without speaking English at all. And they are learning there. And of course they are still studying, but they are learning there. Okay, how are they learning? They are watching people. How people do, how do people order things in restaurants, at restaurants, how do people talk at the streets? And they try to copy them. So why don't we bring this kind of teaching methodology to the classroom? And it was like 2016 or 17, that was teaching high school and these school decided to change the methodology, decided to try, you know, here in Brazil, it was one of the pioneers here In Brazil that tried to change the multi level classroom. And I was already trying that with my students. And then I thought, oh my God, now I'm going to have like, more proper learning. You know how to do it.

Yeah.

But it was still divided by basic one, basic two and basic three in the same classroom. Inter one, inter two and inter three in the same classroom. And advanced one and advanced two in the same classroom. It was not like 100% multilevel.

Yeah, it's a start.

Yeah, it's a start. It's a start.

So I'm curious to hear what were the main objections that came at up from the industry and from learners when they heard you say, oh, let's do a multi level class. Right. Like, what were the. What was the first response?

Yeah, of course, you know, is it for everybody? No, it's not for everybody. Because I do believe, Hadar, that, you know, everybody, everyone can find your best way of learning. The way that I learned probably was not the same way that you learned. And probably the way that I teach, it's not the best for some students. Okay. For example, I kind of avoid translation. I'm one of those teachers that avoid translating everything. Bruno, do you think that translation is important? Yes, I do think that translation is important in the beginning. Right. But as much faster you can avoid translation in my perspective, in my point of view, you know, you are going to learn faster. There are some kind of teachers that they think that it's impossible to avoid translation all the time because your brain can translate in a very, very, you know, fast way, something like that. And you never stop translating, you know, they believe so. But I, you know, it's, it's their way of teaching. It works, yes, with some kind of. With some certain people it works okay. With others it doesn't work. It's just like the multilevel classrooms, you know. Yeah, they work with some kind of people, but they don't work with others. I had a student that, she was always asking me in this specific school, you know, that you started to, to have like multilevel classrooms here in Brazil. I had a student, specific student that she, she wanted to translate, like everything, everything. She wanted to translate, to translate, to translate. And then inside of the classroom, it's quite, it's kind of funny. I told her, hey, this school is not for you. I told her, this school is not for you. Okay, you should search for another school, you know. And I told her the name of the other school that works with this kind of methodology of translation. And I told her, hey, go to that other school, it will be better for you, Right?

Yeah.

And then, you know, she, she talked to the principal. When the principal came to me, hey, Bruno, you know, you cannot say these kind of things here. But I was thinking about her, you know.

Yeah. You know, that's, that's amazing. Like, that's the best type of marketing. You're doing what's best for the student. I love that so much.

Yeah. And because sometimes the student, they don't understand what's best for them, you know, they don't have this kind of discernment, you know, what is, what is the best thing for me? What is the best way for me to learn English? Right. For example, I have some private students that I try one methodology with them and I try other methodology with others because I know that for some, one kind of way of teaching works and the other they don't. Right. So you have to understand your student first of all. And for example, when you have like a school and the methodology of the school, the student, they have to understand that probably that methodology is not for them.

It's so true. Not just about multi level classes, but also about pretty much everything and anything that we go through in our journey. Because, you know, you have to recognize as a learner if the certain strategy or methodology of the teacher or even the chemistry you have with the teacher is right for you and you have to trust your intuition, right? Like, and the results that you see, because if you feel that you're not progressing and you feel constantly confused and everything is really cloudy, then there is something. It's not English, right? It's like, probably you're not in the right place. And same thing for teachers. If a teacher uses a well known strategy or teaching resources that don't feel aligned with how they want to work and like they're not aligned with their energy, I feel that it just their ability to perform and fulfill their potential is significantly compromised. So I think that what you're saying here is like, hey, you got to recognize and it's okay if it's not for you, because there is no one size fits all when it comes to English learning. Not in teaching and not in learning. And I also want to share that my daughters are in a democratic school, you know, talking about choosing and choice and all of that. They're in a democratic school. My eldest one is in second grade. My youngest one is about to go into first grade next year and it's multi level classes. So she's like, there's a group of first Graders, second graders and third graders all together. So they're studying together and, and it was like that in kindergarten. And you know, that's the same thing. I feel that for some parents and for some kids that's just not the right thing. But for me I feel that there's, while that could be, you know, she's exposed to certain content or interactions with, you know, when she was in first grade with third graders. But I definitely saw that there was a lot of value in it. Right. And definitely helped her. Kind of like it pulled her up rather than, you know, kept her in this, like what's expected. So actually the system was designed to meet her where she needs help the most. And I think that that's what we are doing with multi level classes. I've, I've been doing it all my teaching life, you know, since day one, it was always multi level groups. I, I don't even believe in dividing people and labeling people. Right. Like a one, a two, a three. Like I get beginners and intermediate and advanced, like beginners who are just starting to play around with the language and people who are using it confidently and people who don't struggle with any fluency issues and they just want to fine tune it. Yes. So there is this distinction, but other than that, I actually feel that some people, like, you know, fluency is really dependent on the circumstances. So it's not like, oh, that's my level and that's it. Maybe that's my level when I'm at work, but I have a different level when I'm with my friends over a glass of wine. Right. So I might be more fluent when I feel more confident, but when I'm tested or when I'm in the classroom and I feel a little competitive, I might not be performing as well, but it has, it's not necessarily my real level of English, which multi level class is actually resolved, don't you think?

Definitely. Definitely. And for example, as was, as I was saying before, when you go out in the world, just like you said, probably at work, you're going to have one kind of conversation and when you're hanging out with friends, a different kind of conversation. So who has told us that we should learn this kind of way? You know, who created the system like these? Because we, we are just introduced, you know, to the system because it is just the way it is since like the very first beginning of the schools. And it was always like that. So when I face it, you know, this, this methodology and some kind of, kind of issues that I was Having, you know, with myself in the learning thing and the teaching thing, I decided to give it a try. You know, Harar and I started, you know, to notice that some of my students, most of them actually, they were learning kind of faster even inside, even in, even in the classroom. Okay. I private groups and. But even in school. And though they were kind of learning faster because I was kind of bringing some extra materials. And then it was another conversation that I had to go, go with the principal because the principal called me, called me back again and hey, Bruno, okay, you need to be straight. You know, it's very, very strict to the methodology. Okay? But I told her, and then I told her, hey, but these students, they are kind of learning faster. No, no, no, no. But they cannot learn that fast. You know, they, because you have to, to, to stay strict to the methodology because they have a, they have to follow a pace here and you know, they cannot go that faster. So in the multi level classrooms, I realized that, that you know, the students, they are, they were kind of learning faster. And I strongly believe, Hadar, that the world is like a community, right? So why not to transform this community in the learning process, in learn as a community, right? Like everybody together. We live together in the world. Yeah, right. So we live in a society. Why not bring the society inside the classroom? That's what I believe. Why? Why? We have to separate everybody in the classroom while outside of the classroom we don't separate anybody, we don't separate each other. So what's the difference? What's the difference? So that's why I decided to bring these to the classroom. I know it doesn't work with everybody. I know it doesn't work with everybody. I also started doing it in an online course. I know that in an online course and the classes, and the classes in a multi level classroom, they are not teacher centered. Okay? They are not teacher centered. They are like students and teacher centered. We, we, we kind of divide this responsibility of sharing knowledge, right? But in an online class, in an online course especially, I know that it's kind of teacher centered. I know that my ttt, my teacher talking time in an online course, it's kind of high because I, I need to talk all the time. But the content that I bring to them for them to learn, I know that they can all learn at the same time regarding, you know, regardless the level that they are in, right? I know that some advanced students will learn more, I know that intermediate students will learn and I know that basic students will learn and what then what I Do I create groups? Like, not groups, only one group. And then inside this group we share ideas. I hand them homework for them to do and they have to do the homework in the group and then everybody can see their answers and talk about the answers. So we discuss the topics. Right. Because it's not only about the teacher, the teacher saying what he wants to say. So these students inside the multi level classes, they also have voices. Yeah.

And it's not individual learning, which is the main problem of like online teaching and also, you know, like you watching YouTube videos and learning on your own. English is meant to exist in a community with other people. So when it's just like you and the teacher and you're doing the work or you're in a group, but every person to their own, then that is not as effective and, and productive as what you're saying, where we're all having a discussion together. And for some people it's going to be easier and for others it's going to be a little more challenging. But people sometimes will get, will get help and sometimes will help others, which is, you know, one of the biggest objections that I hear is that, oh, what if I'm not challenged enough? How will I improve? Right. Especially from people who have more experience, experience in the language and have a little more fluency than others. And they would be like, no, I need someone to challenge me. Right. So what I always say is that why do you think that supporting others won't get you as far as feeling like you have to catch up or keep up with someone else? Because I actually think that those students have the most responsibility and that responsibility can actually, you know, improve them as communicators or help them build them as communicators. And it's more than just, you know, having someone speak at my level.

Yeah. And it's such a important thing, you know, to know the responsibility that you have inside of the classroom. And okay, I'm, I'm studying English and the teacher, only the teacher is responsible for, for my learning. No, it's not work. It doesn't work like that. You are the one responsible, like 90%, the responsibility is yours. And when you get to know that and you also can share your knowledge with others, we need some kind of environment where everybody gets to win. Because there are three processes on the multilevel classes that are very, very important. Initiation that I do believe so because when you, you start studying in a multi level class, it's quite different from everything that I've seen before. So you have to have this initiation process to understand how does it work? Then we have the consolidation, right? When you are already aware of how it works and then it's like the deepening, you know, when you already know how it works and you start sharing your knowledge with others and showing then how important it is, you know, for them also to show their knowledge. So we have these three pretty important aspects of the multilevel classrooms. Initiation, consolidation, and deepening. I don't know if I'm, if I'm making myself clear and Absolutely.

So, Bruno, what would you recommend for students who don't learn in such environments? How would you recommend them to maybe approach their teachers? Or how can they find, or create for themselves situations where they can find multi level classes?

Well, for example, first of all, the student, he has to try to understand himself, you know, their selves, the way they learn best. Okay, how do I think that I learned best? What do I like to do? Okay, because when you, when you learn with things that you like to watch and things you like to, you already learn. We learn all the time, but there are things that we like to learn with and there are things that we don't like to learn with. Right? So when you get to know these things that you, that you prefer to learn with, you talk to your teacher. Because many of the students, they don't, they don't have this kind of consciousness that of what they need. What do I need? Every single day, Radar. I get messages here on my Instagram, hey, I want to study English, but I don't know where to start. How do I start studying English on my own? Right. So how do I do it? So the student, they don't know how to do it, they don't know where to start. Yeah. So it's important when they talk to the teacher and the teacher gives them the right direction, telling them, you know from, where to start from things that you like the most. So you. I'm not going to tell my student to, okay, start watching some kind of TV show, some Friends, for example. Watch Friends and then you're going to learn English watching Friends. But then he's going to say, but, hey, but I hate Friends. Why will I start watching some kind of things to learn English that I don't like? Okay, because many students nowadays, especially teenagers and millennials, who doesn't know English, they want to learn by movies and TV shows and, and, and, and series, but they don't know that learning with TV shows and TV series, it's different from watching TV shows, it's different from watching TV series. One thing is the entertainment. One thing is watching for entertainment. One thing is to watch for learning. It's completely different. So the teacher must aware them of these because many of them, they don't want to like to pay the price, you know, to learn. They want to learn, but they don't want to pay the price to learn. And the price is that it takes time, it takes dedication, it takes constancy. Okay. You need to be constant in the learning process in everything in life. Right. If you're not, you're. You're not gonna get anywhere. You're not gonna get anywhere.

And, and there are like all these, you know, false promises and magic solutions out there and like fluent in three months and you know, formula that we'll get. And it, yeah, it will advance you, but like you still have to do the work. And usually it's not about. Time is not just, you know, the strategy. It's about how you're like the brain takes time to process information and a new language. So time is part of the work and it's not, it's not a function that you can play with. I mean, you can reduce it if you're more consistent rather than if you're not doing the work. But still, I think it's really important to recognize that, you know, you can't take out that factor that is called time when you are, you know, doing the work and learning. And yes, I absolutely see that as well. People who are just starting out, they want easy, easy solutions.

Yeah. And the student, they must understand that, that they have to respect themselves, respect, you know, their flaws. They have to respect that because there are, there are some students that they are shy. They are shy in their mother tongue. Okay. But then when you're going to learn another language, you are told that you cannot be shy. But like, how come I am shy in my life? So I have, it's like it's my personal characteristics. So I have to go against it to learn a new language. No, you don't need to do that. You don't need to do that. Right? Yeah. So us, we have to know that and we have to share and then we have to, to tell the student that and that they don't need to change theirselves to, to learn a new language and to speak a new language. They don't have to be outgoing if they are not outgoing. Okay? Right. You don't have to change yourself. You just need to be yourself and respect yourself. You. You're going to. Maybe for you, it's gonna Take longer, but who cares? You're gonna learn eventually.

Yeah. I mean, anyway, when you speak a second language, there is a part that doesn't feel like yourself. Right. Because you're not using the words that are so connected with your soul and your being. Right. So anyway, you don't feel like yourself. So on top of that, oh, you're an introvert. No, you have to be an extrovert to succeed. You have to be outgoing. You have to, like, change. You have to be super friendly. You know, I'm reserved. Like, I have my own way of. So that's a really, really good point.

Yeah. And the important thing hadar about multilevel classes, multilevel classrooms, is that, you know, you connect to people that now are in the intermediate level or advanced level, and they connect to each other because they were just like that one day. And this, they are able to see, you know, how the beginners, they are kind of struggling, but they remember, they, hey, I was just like that the other day, you know, and they can encourage themselves to be a better student and to be a better learning learner. They are going to share the strategies, you know, that they had that they use it for themselves, you know, and probably, probably that that strategy that worked with one can also work with another, you know, and probably strategy that the teacher is not. It's not capable of share this. Right. The teacher doesn't. Is not aware of this strategy that the student uses with them. Right. But can also be used with another. Right. So this sharing ideas in the same environment is what, you know, makes a really big difference in the learning process regarding multilevel classrooms. What we don't have in classrooms that we used to have before.

Yeah. In traditional classrooms. It's so true. And that goes back to, you know, what you said at the beginning, that it's so important to not allow previous patterns of thoughts and the things that we already know determine how we see the current reality or like, new things that are ahead of us. Because there is so much judgment that we feel towards new things and things that are less traditional. And we need to explore why that is. A lot of times it's just because we were designed to think of a certain way, we were programmed to think a certain way. You know, the whole, like, speak like this, speak like that. Like this is what fluency means, you know, and like A1 is not as good as C2. And all of that, all of that, like, I really encourage teachers and, you know, learners, new speakers of English, to. To challenge any thought that comes to Mind about what it is, what it means to be a speaker of English as a second language. Right. Like, I think we constantly need to challenge it and to see does that serve me, and if not, how can I change that? Even if it's like, industry norms. Bruno, because you work with Portuguese speakers in the time that we have left, what would be things that you notice Brazilian Portuguese speakers struggle with the most?

Of course, pronunciation, for sure.

Pronunciation.

Yeah. Because here in Brazil, we have the flap of the flap T here in Brazil. And the flap D here in Brazil is the flap R. Right. And one thing that I always tell my students as well, because you have to, like, connect English to English. You don't have to make the connection English to Portuguese because it can be kind of, you know, kind of harmful for you in the future, pronouncing some. Some words. For example, because here, the R, we have the flap R. For example, we say, okay, just. Just.

Yeah, give me an example.

Yeah, we say. We say branco. We say. I don't know. Okay, the flap R. Right. Tradition. We say traditional. Like traditional. We say traditional. That's it. We have the flap. We have the flap with the letter R. And then I see a lot of. I don't. I don't judge then, of course, but it's just something that I don't do with my students when I see teachers saying, hey, you just do the same sound of the R. Right. With some. With some kind of words in English. But the thing is, when you have a word with R in English, you tend to say the same way that the word is with T or D. You know, for example, I see a lot of students here in Brazil saying, drive. I like to drive. You know, what is. You know, what is drive? It's drive.

Drive. Yeah. They substitute the American R with that flap T. Like the R sound. Yes.

And, you know, and they get confused. And they get confused. So that's one of the things, right? The flap T. Because they tend to do this. This kind of connection. And for example, where you're going to say very, they say vetti. And also here in Brazil, we tend to put some E in the end of the words. Like, I recorded a video yesterday explaining these kind of things. And it's not about having the Brazilian accent. I do believe that your accent is your identity. I do believe so. Right. And it's an amazing icebreaker when you're going to start talking to someone and the person looks at you and say, hey, you have a different accent. Where are you from? It's an Amazing icebreaker to have your accent. Right. So I always tell my students, hey, you don't need to lose your accent. Oh, I need to lose, I want to lose my accent. No, you don't need to. Okay. But there are some kind of words that they needed to be pronounced correctly to avoid misunderstandings, right?

Yeah.

And for example, have, have the words I, I have. Right. Important is we say I, I, heavy. I have.

Yeah, yeah.

And heavy. It's like heavy, right?

Absolutely. I think in general adding vowels to a word. Right. Like adding more syllables to a word or you know, reducing syllables from a word could be very challenging. Or I think that that could definitely affect someone's clarity. So you're right. Like no one needs to lose their accent because it doesn't even like what is. Everyone has an accent, so they don't need to sound like anyone else. But they need to understand what prevents them from being clear. Right. And from delivering their message confidently. Because if you say something and people don't understand you because you say heavy instead of have, then obviously it will make you feel incompetent, insecure, and it would be hard to explain, especially if you don't know what it is that you're doing wrong and why they don't understand you. Right. And when people don't understand you for like several times, they won't feel comfortable asking you again, what was that? And that can affect your communication.

Yeah. And bringing back to the model level classes the important thing. What I've noticed that when you have traditional classrooms here in Brazil especially, people tend to laugh about your mistakes. When you are in traditional classes and in multi level classes, I, I noticed that is there is some kind of reduction of that. You know, people don't laugh too much, maybe one of other words when it sounds really, really funny. But when it's a funny situation, when it's like an embarrassing situation, of course everybody think it's funny. Right. Everybody have some fun of that. Some mistakes. It's important, it's important to make mistakes. You just learn a new language making mistakes, you know, if you don't, don't make mistakes, you don't need to learn. So because you're going to be perfect in everything in your life. So it's important to learn, but it's important to, to have fun but with the mistakes. But you know, there's some kind of difference in a fun way or in a mocking way, you know.

Yeah.

When you mock someone about the mistakes you, you know, you were in a way not preventing, you're making Something like very, very difficult for a person to, to, to improve in their learning process. Right? Because she, she's going to feel stuck. She's going to be ashamed of making mistakes because people will laugh at her. So making mistakes is important. Right? Laughing of then in a certain way in. Is also important. But mocking, you know, a person who is learning, it's completely different. And we Brazilian people, we, we, we eat some kind of characteristics that we have around here in Brazil that is not good, that we are not proud of it. And a people, you know, kind of don't, don't, don't understand how harmful it is for the learning process. And I think.

And it's not, it's not just for the learning process of the other person because when you are mocking someone else, and I think it's not just for, you know, with Brazilian speakers, I think that's something that a lot of people do as. Because they feel uncomfortable or awkward. No matter what you're, you know, it, it could be culture dependent, but I see it across, you know, cultures where, you know, people, people turn their insecurity into harmful words or they feel good about themselves by making others feel a little uncomfortable or making fun of them. And I think like, going back to what I said is, is just, it's not just harmful for the other person because it's absolutely harmful and can cause trauma. It's also harmful for you because that judgment will reflect back on you when you speak. So you will be constantly in fear of other people making mistakes because you know how you are when other people speak. Speak. And that would prevent you from, you know, being fluent and from, from expressing yourself fully and confidently.

Yeah, I think like when you, when you asked me about what are the most struggles that here in Brazil we have, of course I said pronunciation, but I, I really do think that it's, it's beyond that pronunciation, you know, it's. I think this kind of behavior that we have, you know, this culture that we have here in Brazil of making fun. I remember we had a coach, soccer coach here in Brazil called Joel Santana, that he was a coach in South Africa during the World cup, like 2010 World Cup. And his English, you know, was not good. Of course. He's like 60. He was 60 or 65 years old and he had to learn English to, you know, to train the South Africa team. And then what happened? He was starting to, to, to go live on interviews and people here in Brazil start to, to make fun of him, to start to mock his English. And I thought, my goodness, it's like it's a 60, 65 year old man, you know, who is exposing himself to the world, speaking English in a country that's not his country, in a tongue in a, in a language that is not his mother, Tong. Right. So while they should be proud of him, they were not proud of him. And unfortunately, unfortunately we have this here in Brazil. It's a culture and I think we would be much better as second language speakers if we could avoid as much as we can, this kind of behaviors here in Brazil and all around the world.

I think all around the world. I can definitely relate to that when it comes to, you know, my own culture, Israeli culture, that happens here as well. I see it. You know, I, I work with different speakers from all around the world. They've all experienced it, not all of them, but like many of them have experienced it one way or another. I often see those videos that people post just to have a laugh of teachers teaching like the wrong pronunciation or, you know, people saying things that might come across as like, funny. I just think that we need to get rid of this, this habit or culture of just like making fun of other people's accents or sounds. Even if it's funny, like sometimes it is funny and sometimes that person like might feel a joke. Maybe not all people take it, you know, to heart, but still, I think as a society we need to change the way we approach, approach it in order for us to make a deep change in the freedom that people feel when communicating in a second language. You know, like, you won't make fun of someone from a person's skin color or religion or, you know, gender. So we definitely need to understand that that can, can actually prevent someone to fulfill their full potential.

And I'm not saying here that the multilevel classes are the solution. Right, for that. Right. But it's an option, right? It's an option. So it's an option that every teacher and every student should think about it. Hey, how does it work in a different methodology? Why not give it a try? Why not give it a try? Okay. I know a lot of people that they have been studying English for so many years, so many years, and they still not like fluent or they, they haven't reached the level that they wanted to be. So why not give it a try? Why not try to find or search for other kind of methodologies that maybe you're going to relate yourself with it. So you just have to keep, keep, keep searching for it.

Absolutely. And don't resist it. You know, give it a Try. And I think that's beautiful. So I'm sure that people can. How can people find you and learn more about you? Bruno?

All right. On my Instagram account, right? Inglespel, Contexto. That's where you're gonna find me. And I'm always there replying to my students and other teachers in case they have some questions. Right. I'm always open to answer any kind of question you may ask. And basically, that's it, because it's just the beginning for me. Hadar. Uh, it's only. It's been only 10 months. Yeah, it's been only 10 months. Of course, that I think that, like, in the near future to have my own YouTube channel or something. I don't know what the future holds.

I think that when you have a message to share, you know, I think it's. It's so important that you have that platform. And obviously, you know, people are drawn to you and what you have to share. And again, like, you know, you have so much fantastic content over there. And for you guys who don't follow, Bruno, I recommend for you to go and check out his Instagram account because you'll get a lot of value. And again, he's there for you to support you and answer your questions. Bruno, I think, like, the future holds so much for you. You are, you know, you are a great teacher and with a big, big heart. So I wish you the best of luck and thank you so much. Anything you want to share. Just like, one last thing you want to share with the community.

Yeah. I think the message is for teachers and also for students. It's like, be yourself. Just be yourself. Of course you can be inspired in someone, but don't try to do what others did or what they have done, because you're not. Then you are yourself. So you have to believe in yourself. Believe that it takes time for some people, it takes longer for others. Doesn't take that long. But you're gonna get there. As an English teacher, if you're, like, just a beginner or even if you are a senior English teacher and you want to change the way you teach, okay, don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. Because the world that we live days, it's full of technology. The way that I learned English was through textbooks, Right. Probably lots of you have learned the same way that I learned. But nowadays it's completely different. And we have to adapt ourselves to the new reality that we're living in. And if we don't, if we don't, it's going to be harder and harder. So believe in yourself. Study. It's important to always keep studying. You know, that's it. Go for it and go for it, because you are going to get there.

I love this message and, and so many things that you shared with us today. So, Bruno, thank you so, so much for your time and your generosity. And I wish you the best of luck, I think, and thank you. Okay, everyone, thank you so much for tuning in today. Take care, be healthy, be safe, and I'll see you all very, very soon. Thank you, Bruno. Thank you, everyone.

Have a good one. Bye. Bye.